The Gospel and Riches

[drtanner]

There has been some good discussion on other threads on this topic and so I wanted to start a new thread with some questions to see if we could all learn something together. My hope is that we may learn from the scriptures and prophets without getting into trying to prove one another right or wrong. Not sure if this will be possible, but I would love to know your thoughts as you have prayed pondered and read the scriptures, not necessarily interested in what you think of others thoughts.

I read Jacob this morning and wanted to ask some questions with this verse as the context:

Jacob 2:19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Here are some genuine questions I would love your feedback on:

Do temporal things mirror spiritual things?

Does god expect us to be spiritually independent?

Does a dependence on Christ only apply to spiritual principles? If not what does that look like given the current status of the world?

Are there principles of self reliance found in the scriptures?

What would God want more, for us to give money to the homeless and destitiue or for us to spend time teaching principles of self reliance and temporal independence? Does he care?

Does God giving Manna from heaven and water from a rock apply to all circumstances of our temporal dependence? How does Adam eating by the sweat of his brow fit in here?

[drtanner]

There has been some good discussion on other threads on this topic and so I wanted to start a new thread with some questions to see if we could all learn something together. My hope is that we may learn from the scriptures and prophets without getting into trying to prove one another right or wrong. Not sure if this will be possible, but I would love to know your thoughts as you have prayed pondered and read the scriptures, not necessarily interested in what you think of others thoughts.

I read Jacob this morning and wanted to ask some questions with this verse as the context:

Jacob 2:19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Here are some genuine questions I would love your feedback on:

Do temporal things mirror spiritual things?

Does god expect us to be spiritually independent?

Does a dependence on Christ only apply to spiritual principles? If not what does that look like given the current status of the world?

Are there principles of self reliance found in the scriptures?

What would God want more, for us to give money to the homeless and destitiue or for us to spend time teaching principles of self reliance and temporal independence? Does he care?

Does God giving Manna from heaven and water from a rock apply to all circumstances of our temporal dependence? How does Adam eating by the sweat of his brow fit in here?

Oh and what did Jacob mean by obtaining riches? What does that look like?

[Alaris]

1 Does god expect us to be spiritually independent?
2 Does a dependence on Christ only apply to spiritual principles? If not what does that look like given the current status of the world?
3 Are there principles of self reliance found in the scriptures?
4 What would God want more, for us to give money to the homeless and destitiue or for us to spend time teaching principles of self reliance and temporal independence? Does he care?
5 Does God giving Manna from heaven and water from a rock apply to all circumstances of our temporal dependence? How does Adam eating by the sweat of his brow fit in here?

I'm replying to this to further procrastinate work ... wait I have a feeling there's some irony involved here.

1. Eventually
2. No. The world looks pretty bleak.
3. Everywhere. We Believe that man will be punished for his own sins ... and rewarded for his own righteousness
4. Yes
5. It's just like grace to cover your sins.

If you ever want to get a clearer picture of what's right look no further at how the devil attacks all of these principles. The agenda of the left are opposite all these points.

1. Do what feels good. Collective Salvation. Victimhood (It's someone else's fault I do whatever I feel like)
2. Not only do we not need Christ but we don't need God or the other Gender - or gender at all for that matter
3. Rich paying their "fair share" reliance
4. Take money rather than give through compulsion vs agency and then, you know, horribly misappropriate those funds that somehow lines the pockets of those in power
5. Fear of nobody caring is one of the baseline doctrines of the adversary and the left. Robbing from Peter to pay Paul is anti-by-the-sweat-of-thy-brow.

Boy the devil sure is stoopid. It's so easy to see what's right when you look at the silly garbage he's slinging that somehow .. .so many gobble up.

[marc]

There has been some good discussion on other threads on this topic and so I wanted to start a new thread with some questions to see if we could all learn something together. My hope is that we may learn from the scriptures and prophets without getting into trying to prove one another right or wrong. Not sure if this will be possible, but I would love to know your thoughts as you have prayed pondered and read the scriptures, not necessarily interested in what you think of others thoughts.

I read Jacob this morning and wanted to ask some questions with this verse as the context:

Jacob 2:19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Here are some genuine questions I would love your feedback on:

Do temporal things mirror spiritual things?

This is really a vague question. My body is a temporal reflection of my spirit. When Jesus appeared to the bro of Jared, he appeared in the same spirit likeness as the temporal body He would occupy when He would come to the earth. All things were created spiritually before temporally so a giraffe in its temporal form would mirror its spirit form.

Does god expect us to be spiritually independent?

I don't think we can be. We are dependent on Him for our salvation. It is by His merit alone that we can be saved and not of anything we can do.

Does a dependence on Christ only apply to spiritual principles? If not what does that look like given the current status of the world?

No. He gave us the earth and all temporal things to be used freely and not by extortion or excess and not to exalt ourselves one above another, but to be equal in all temporal things or else God will not make us equal in heavenly things.

Are there principles of self reliance found in the scriptures?

What would God want more, for us to give money to the homeless and destitiue or for us to spend time teaching principles of self reliance and temporal independence? Does he care?

There are countless passages throughout the scriptures on imparting our substance (which really is all HIS substance) to the poor and needy and very little if at all on "self reliance." As a matter of fact there are parables and passages that point to us not being self reliant but reliant only on Him.

Does God giving Manna from heaven and water from a rock apply to all circumstances of our temporal dependence? How does Adam eating by the sweat of his brow fit in here?

It means that as soon as we are placed on the earth, it is our duty to return to him (rend the veil), but instead we become distracted by the "things" of the world. Where we need very little upon which to subsist, we make big business out of it and also hobbies and idols of all things. In the passage you quoted in Jacob above, seeking riches is justified ONLY to elevate the poor and not to elevate ourselves temporally. We are supposed to make ourselves equal and prove that we can be one. Thus only then do we prove to God that we can be worthy of being made one in heavenly things.

[drtanner]

Great thoughts.

Let me give you two scenarios and I would love to hear how you feel the Lord views each

#1 A man works hard saving his whole life so he can buy rental properties with the sole intent to take the rental income to free him from having to work so he can preach the gospel full time and spend his time helping the poor and destitute, he spends every ounce of extra income beyond what is necessary to cover basic needs and gives it to the poor and needy.

#2 A man works hard saving extra money but each pay check he gives to the poor and needy all the extra he has. He however is not able to free his time indefinitely but does spend all his extra time preaching the gospel and helping the poor and needy. He works his whole life this way.

Is one man less faithful? Is one condemned in the Lords eyes? If both are willing to sell all at any moments ask from the Lord is one's final condition different than the other because of how and what he did with his riches?

[marc]

Great thoughts.

Let me give you two scenarios and I would love to hear how you feel the Lord views each

#1 A man works hard saving his whole life so he can buy rental properties with the sole intent to take the rental income to free him from having to work so he can preach the gospel full time and spend his time helping the poor and destitute, he spends every ounce of extra income beyond what is necessary to cover basic needs and gives it to the poor and needy.

#2 A man works hard saving extra money but each pay check he gives to the poor and needy all the extra he has. He however is not able to free his time but does spend all his extra time preaching the gospel and helping the poor and needy. He works his whole life this way.

Is one man less faithful? Is one condemned in the Lords eyes? If both are willing to sell all at any moments ask from the Lord is one's final condition different than the other because of how what he did with his riches?

In both scenarios, each man is doing things according to his own wisdom and not according to Jesus' specific teachings and commandments. Therefore are either of them really faithful if they do not faithfully do it Jesus Christ's way?

19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also...

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

18 Now it came to pass that after Alma had received his message from the angel of the Lord he returned speedily to the land of Ammonihah. And he entered the city by another way, yea, by the way which is on the south of the city of Ammonihah.

19 And as he entered the city he was an hungered, and he said to a man: Will ye give to an humble servant of God something to eat?

20 And the man said unto him: I am a Nephite, and I know that thou art a holy prophet of God, for thou art the man whom an angel said in a vision: Thou shalt receive. Therefore, go with me into my house and I will impart unto thee of my food; and I know that thou wilt be a blessing unto me and my house.

21 And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma.

22 And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he blessed Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God.

13 ¶ And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.

14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Or how about the young rich man who thought he was so faithful, but went away sorrowing after Jesus instructed him how he lacked just one more thing.

17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 ¶ And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

The bottom line then, is, according to Jesus Christ's own words, if we are to believe the scriptures is to do what He has said to do the way He has said to do it.

[Alaris]

Great thoughts.

Let me give you two scenarios and I would love to hear how you feel the Lord views each

#1 A man works hard saving his whole life so he can buy rental properties with the sole intent to take the rental income to free him from having to work so he can preach the gospel full time and spend his time helping the poor and destitute, he spends every ounce of extra income beyond what is necessary to cover basic needs and gives it to the poor and needy.

#2 A man works hard saving extra money but each pay check he gives to the poor and needy all the extra he has. He however is not able to free his time indefinitely but does spend all his extra time preaching the gospel and helping the poor and needy. He works his whole life this way.

Is one man less faithful? Is one condemned in the Lords eyes? If both are willing to sell all at any moments ask from the Lord is one's final condition different than the other because of how and what he did with his riches?

I would say that in either case, he should run his plans past the Lord first. If he doesn't pray and seek the Lord's counsel whose thoughts and ways are above our own - whose plans we should to accomplish and not our own - then yes he would be under condemnation though probably not a lot for not being charitable in the "best" way :ymhug:

This person's level of spiritual advancement likely has a great deal to do with that condemnation - if the Lord wanted this man to be a Mission President and tried to lead him down the path of saving - then yeah spending each paycheck on the poor would prevent him from going and having the Lord's desired impact. I love hypotheticals. Keep them coming!

EDIT:

As for Jacob's scripture about seeking for riches with the intent to do good ... what does that mean for someone who buys a house that's way larger than their needs? Are they using the extra space to house family and friends in times of need? Are they helping their in laws *shiver* when they are starting to get too old by having them move in?

On the other hand, I absolutely believe this principle. I do believe the Lord - generally speaking - gives a bigger increase to those who are proving themselves spiritually - partially as a reward and partially as a test. What will you do with this added inheritance? Doesn't that mirror the eternal test?

[drtanner]

So what does providing for a family and helping the poor and needy look like to you in keeping in harmony with these scriptures? Are you supposed to have a job? What do you do with the income? What does it mean to give all? Where do you live? Just trying to better understand what you are saying

Sincerely asking.

[freedomforall]

Great thoughts.

Let me give you two scenarios and I would love to hear how you feel the Lord views each

#1 A man works hard saving his whole life so he can buy rental properties with the sole intent to take the rental income to free him from having to work so he can preach the gospel full time and spend his time helping the poor and destitute, he spends every ounce of extra income beyond what is necessary to cover basic needs and gives it to the poor and needy.

#2 A man works hard saving extra money but each pay check he gives to the poor and needy all the extra he has. He however is not able to free his time indefinitely but does spend all his extra time preaching the gospel and helping the poor and needy. He works his whole life this way.

Is one man less faithful? Is one condemned in the Lords eyes? If both are willing to sell all at any moments ask from the Lord is one's final condition different than the other because of how and what he did with his riches?

God expects us to develop and use our own talents. One man's talents may not be the same as another's. In both the examples we see that the poor and needy are being looked after...and talents are being exercised. Both are doing righteous goals without being compelled to do so.

Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-29
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.

Matt. 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[Alaris]

So what does providing for a family and helping the poor and needy look like to you in keeping in harmony with these scriptures? Are you supposed to have a job? What do you do with the income? What does it mean to give all? Where do you live? Just trying to better understand what you are saying

Sincerely asking.

I've taken on three step children and have more coming along the way. I pay a full tithe and do pay fast offerings. My duty to the poor at this time in my life isn't where I would like it to be as my not overly large house and my nowhere near luxurious vehicles and my obligation to my family takes up most of my income. My family takes up most of my time. I really don't think the Lord is looking at my wallet at this time in my life and tapping His fingers when my fast offerings aren't as high as I wish they were.

However, I can answer that quickly and in confidence precisely because I do strive to counsel in the Lord in all my doings. I do pray for opportunities for service - and my extended family keeps those opportunities coming my way in a steady stream. I do serve in my calling. Most importantly I feel the spirit as I report this on a public forum that the Lord is pleased.

Back to the house and vehicles - when I see LDS members driving around blingtastic overly large behemoth SUVs with gold trim (if that's not the biggest oxymoron - gold trim on a Sport Utility Vehicle that's being driven around like a glorious minivan) - that's when I wonder if swaths of our members are in a bad place in the pride cycle. I think the key to keep humble in times of aplenty is to avoid buying excess and stuff you don't need and prayerfully redirect those funds and efforts where they are needed.

Then there are those elderly who don't care about your money and are just craving someone's time. Hence the visit - OK I'm getting back to work now. No more procrastinating!

[marc]

So what does providing for a family and helping the poor and needy look like to you in keeping in harmony with these scriptures? Are you supposed to have a job? What do you do with the income? What does it mean to give all? Where do you live? Just trying to better understand what you are saying

Sincerely asking.

Oh, man, I'm actually writing my story (personal record) of all this and the hard lessons I learned. Or rather, the lessons I learned the hard way. But today, I am poor and needy. I was once self employed, making tens of thousands per month, building houses in many cities, working my way up to being wealthy, retired with savings and investments. Fast forward to today, I lost my house with the crash of '08, then I sold and gave away most everything I own to help others and have made myself poor and fully dependent on the Lord through a series of trials and lessens He taught me. I do have a regular job now, which covers my basic needs and I have no excess. The alternative is to be homeless, which my wife and I would be if we hadn't moved in with her elderly folks to take care of them. So it works out. I have no more worldly ambitions and am no longer rich by any stretch of the imagination. We have two adopted boys, full grown and out of the house. Anyway, that's the short answer. If you'd like to know more about me, I'd be happy to pm you later when I have a chance. I think I shared my story on this forum a few years ago, but I can't remember how detailed it was. But, yeah, I decided not to wait until the Lord said sacrifice everything. I'm doing it of my own free will. After all, He has already said to do it throughout the standard works.

[marc]

I forgot to mention, I no longer have any investments, 401K, nothing. I'm in debt one credit card maxed, but I might have a couple hundred in savings to pay for my wife's root canal this month. That's about it.

[diligently seeking]

D&C6:

A great and marvelous work is about to come forth unto the children of men.

2 Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore give heed unto my words.

3 Behold, the field is white already to harvest; therefore, whoso desireth to reap, let him thrust in his sickle with his might, and reap while the day lasts, that he may treasure up for his soul everlasting salvation in the kingdom of God.

4Yea, whosoever will thrust in his sickle and reap, the same is called of God.

5Therefore, if you will ask of me you shall receive; if you will knock it shall be opened unto you.

6 Now, as you have asked, behold, I say unto you, keep my commandments, and seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion;

7 Seek not for riches but for wisdom, and behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich.



How wonderful are those who relieve pain and suffering in the world... Surely they will stand a great chance to be amongst those who make up God's Zion-- where there be no poor and all is had in common and where that most amazing pure love and wholeness that will swell ones soul in that setting will be worth more to those blessed folks than all of this worlds monetary prize a gazillion-- montillian times over.