Polarizing Question

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drtanner
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Polarizing Question

Post by drtanner »

It seems that many on forms or discussion groups who are on the fringes of the church (or out / against the church) are those that believe and are seeking for calling and election, second comforter, etc.
Last edited by drtanner on October 1st, 2017, 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

brianj
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by brianj »

I firmly believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's true church on Earth, that the priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith and delegated to millions of people today, that Thomas Monson is the one person with authority to exercise all priesthood keys and to prophesy to the entire world, and that only through the priesthood and LDS church are saving ordinances administered.

I also believe that anyone who disputes the idea that we mortals can receive the second comforter needs to more seriously study the scriptures. And I don't view the concept of having your calling and election made sure is a witness that you have made it, but a witness that you have proven faithful and if you continue on the same path then you will have made it.

My biggest hopes right now in life are that one day I will be found worthy to receive that witness, and that one day I will receive the second comforter.

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True
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by True »

Yes. I know that Christ is the head of our church and sustain the priesthood leaders. I am seeking a meeting with the One. He is gently calling and leading me and reassuring me that is what he wants for me.

I think part of the reason that people that are seeking this fall away is bc when you finally start having spiritual experiences, you realize that the church didn't make that happen, your seeking the Lord did. I think that confuses some people. The whole purpose of the church is to point you to that relationship with God, to facilitate this spiritual progression. It cannot happen in a group.

I think the church does a good job pointing to the water. You are the one that has to drink it. When you finally do, it is so amazing, you wonder why everyone is not talking about it, why everyone thinks you're crazy. You then realize that not very many people are drinking water and it is sad. I can understand why people leave bc of it. But I never will bc of a personal witness that Jesus leads this church. Also, I have seen the fruits of those who have left. It ain't good.

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gclayjr
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by gclayjr »

drtanner,
Are there any who believe and are seeking for these things who whole heartedly support and believe that the 15 men who lead this church are prophets, seers, and revelators? And who believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints has the priesthood authority and is the only authorized institution to administer Christ's ordinances of salvation?
There are a number of us who do stand up for the Church here and we have the scars to prove it. I think the problem relates to the thinking of the hateful snowflakes who populate a lot of this board and are continuously on the attack.

If someone were to say something like "The LDS Church has become corrupted and the leaders of the church have led you astray.." They are accepted as honest people who for 1 reason or another have have researched things, and are not knee jerk lemmings like TBMs who just follow what the LDS church leaders say.

If someone says "Don't put your faith in man, but in the holy spirit, and the Holy Spirit has testified to me that the church has become corrupted, because it's leaders have said ......", they are generally heralded as one who believes in Jesus Christ and are in tune with the spirit, and again are not stupid ignorant lemmings who follow the brethren.


If someone says "Your logic is faulty and you use corrupt irrational, or incoherent logic to support your criticism ,.. " Then you are a hateful spiteful person, who is attacking an individual, and you will be ganged up upon. And those who gang up on you will effervesce the honesty and wisdom of the hateful heretic who attacks the church and how hateful and spiteful you are for pointing it out!

If you say that you Believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is still today, the only true Church of Jesus Christ, and that Thomas Monson is the is Christ's anointed prophet on this earth, and that only through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, and Baptism by immersion by one in authority ... that is a priesthood holder in the LDS Church, and receiving the gift of the holy ghost, via one in authority... a Melchezdic priesthood holder in the LDS Church.. and by enduring to the end can one be saved, you are accused of just being a sycophant, and following men, instead of what the spirit directs.

That being said. When I chose to follow Christ, I did not expect everybody to fall over in praise of me. I do believe that we must stand up for truth, even on an "LDS" :) oriented board, and the scorn of those following evil is a small price to pay for standing up for the truth. Heck, being attacked by some of these people is almost a badge of honor.

Regards,

George Clay

drtanner
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by drtanner »

question
Last edited by drtanner on July 16th, 2018, 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gclayjr
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by gclayjr »

drtanner,
Here is a follow up question, does anyone here who sustains the brethren and the church but feels that focusing on things like calling and election and second comforter is something that we shouldn't worry ourselves with?
We shouldn't be looking for any special shortcuts. If we diligently follow Jesus Christ, it will come when he is ready to bestow it!

Regards,

George Clay

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marc
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by marc »

Ether 4:13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
The Book of Mormon is the New Covenant, which teaches one to unlock this. Until one is no longer under condemnation, one remains, still, under condemnation.

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Alaris
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by Alaris »

drtanner wrote: May 29th, 2017, 4:53 pm Here is a follow up question, does anyone here who sustains the brethren and the church but feels that focusing on things like calling and election and second comforter is something that we shouldn't worry ourselves with?
A member of Israel is either on this path to gain more light and knowledge line upon line, precept upon precept, or they are on the "we have enough" path where they will have taken away even that which they hath.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by Rose Garden »

gclayjr wrote: May 29th, 2017, 4:04 pm drtanner,
Are there any who believe and are seeking for these things who whole heartedly support and believe that the 15 men who lead this church are prophets, seers, and revelators? And who believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints has the priesthood authority and is the only authorized institution to administer Christ's ordinances of salvation?
There are a number of us who do stand up for the Church here and we have the scars to prove it. I think the problem relates to the thinking of the hateful snowflakes who populate a lot of this board and are continuously on the attack.

If someone were to say something like "The LDS Church has become corrupted and the leaders of the church have led you astray.." They are accepted as honest people who for 1 reason or another have have researched things, and are not knee jerk lemmings like TBMs who just follow what the LDS church leaders say.

If someone says "Don't put your faith in man, but in the holy spirit, and the Holy Spirit has testified to me that the church has become corrupted, because it's leaders have said ......", they are generally heralded as one who believes in Jesus Christ and are in tune with the spirit, and again are not stupid ignorant lemmings who follow the brethren.


If someone says "Your logic is faulty and you use corrupt irrational, or incoherent logic to support your criticism ,.. " Then you are a hateful spiteful person, who is attacking an individual, and you will be ganged up upon. And those who gang up on you will effervesce the honesty and wisdom of the hateful heretic who attacks the church and how hateful and spiteful you are for pointing it out!

If you say that you Believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is still today, the only true Church of Jesus Christ, and that Thomas Monson is the is Christ's anointed prophet on this earth, and that only through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, and Baptism by immersion by one in authority ... that is a priesthood holder in the LDS Church, and receiving the gift of the holy ghost, via one in authority... a Melchezdic priesthood holder in the LDS Church.. and by enduring to the end can one be saved, you are accused of just being a sycophant, and following men, instead of what the spirit directs.

That being said. When I chose to follow Christ, I did not expect everybody to fall over in praise of me. I do believe that we must stand up for truth, even on an "LDS" :) oriented board, and the scorn of those following evil is a small price to pay for standing up for the truth. Heck, being attacked by some of these people is almost a badge of honor.

Regards,

George Clay
Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the same board with other people . . .

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marc
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by marc »

Furthermore, one can sustain all presiding authorities with all one's heart and soul, be an active temple recommend holder and still be under condemnation.

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Durzan
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by Durzan »

I have a testimony of Jesus Christ, of Joseph Smith, of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, tithing, and the Holy Spirit. The Spirit has testified to me that the church is in much danger nowadays, and that there is some form of corruption creeping in. I have weeped over this. What I do not know, is what form that corruption has taken or where the root of it is. It could simply be that we as a church simply remain in a condemned state, and as such our prophet's mouths have been largely held closed by the spirit due to the fact that a strand of pride has taken root in the hearts of many of the saints, or it could be something more.

However, this has not damaged my testimony of the Gospel. I still have faith that President Monson and the leaders of the Church are being guided by God. If there is anything wrong with the administration of the church, regardless of what it may be, then the Lord will either direct our current leaders to take care of it in his own due time, or will replace them with people who will. If there is something wrong with the members of the church, then the Lord will also take care of it also in his own due time, by inspiring others to work to fix it with loving firmness.

In fact, in spite of my suspicions and promptings, I was told by the Spirit that I needed to stay within the Church and fulfill my callings faithfully. If I stray from the Church, then I will not be where I need to be when Heavenly Father will call upon me to perform some vital task. I will act when the Lord directs it, and let the chips fall where they may.

I am but one of the many pieces that the Lord has placed upon this board. I will make sure to do what the part I was given, no matter how big or small.
Last edited by Durzan on May 29th, 2017, 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gclayjr
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by gclayjr »

drtanner,
It seems that many on forms or discussion groups who are on the fringes of the church (or out / against the church) are those that believe and are seeking for calling and election, second comforter, etc.

Are there any who believe and are seeking for these things who whole heartedly support and believe that the 15 men who lead this church are prophets, seers, and revelators? And who believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints has the priesthood authority and is the only authorized institution to administer Christ's ordinances of salvation?
So was this not simply an honest question but some gambit to trick people into following something like
Here is a follow up question, does anyone here who sustains the brethren and the church but feels that focusing on things like calling and election and second comforter is something that we shouldn't worry ourselves with?

One advantage of being honest and straightforward, is that even if you don't see some sort of sneaky gambit coming. The truth still holds
If you say that you Believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is still today, the only true Church of Jesus Christ, and that Thomas Monson is the is Christ's anointed prophet on this earth, and that only through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, and Baptism by immersion by one in authority ... that is a priesthood holder in the LDS Church, and receiving the gift of the holy ghost, via one in authority... a Melchezdic priesthood holder in the LDS Church.. and by enduring to the end can one be saved, you are accused of just being a sycophant, and following men, instead of what the spirit directs.
So go ahead a slip into your 5 easy steps on how to get your "Calling and Election made Sure", gambit. Maybe somebody will critique it and see if it is better than Amonhi's, unless you ARE Amonhi!

Regards,

George Clay

drtanner
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by drtanner »

I'm genuinely interested in what folks on this forum have to say. I have no ulterior motive.

diligently seeking
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by diligently seeking »

I wish it was not so drtanner, but we are taught a different gospel today than what Joseph laid out which had its origins solely inspired / revealed by Christ. Why would the message of being received by Christ in this life so drastically change and be diminished since Joseph's day? I think Truman Madsen had it right when he said:

Said the Prophet Joseph Smith after one of the most revelatory meetings in his life, “There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (Teachings, p. 237). This is the religion of every man. Not “Take my word for my experience,” but “Duplicate it in your own life.” How far do I go with this? All the way.

Let me then come to a close. I have hiked, with my wife and at night, all the way from the base of what is known as Mt. Sinai to the top. (Incidentally, with a very sore toe. Climbing hurts, and the more you climb, sometimes the more it hurts.) We went up to where the air is thinner and the veil thinner. There isn’t time to describe the feeling, but we were able to recollect that Moses, there, had face-to-face communion with God. He came back down and said to the children of Israel, in the name of the God whose name he knew, “Now, you are invited to go back up with me.”

And they said, “Thank you. No. That’s for prophets. That’s for people who are a bit fanatical. We will stay here and you go up, Moses.”

In his absence they built an idol. The power of religious impulses goes in many directions. They built an idol—a thing—and were denied the privileges of Moses (D&C 84:23–25). That is what our generation is now doing again. We are staying down below and then claiming superiority for our judgment in doing so.” Truman G. Madsen, On How We Know, BYU Devotional Address, Sept. 20, 1994

Lizzy60
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by Lizzy60 »

Drtanner, I have a sincere question for you.

Do you believe that calling and election and second comforter are Christ's ordinances of salvation, and are administered by those holding priesthood authority in the Church? Or, do you believe they happen independently of official priesthood administration? Or, do you believe that both of these ways of obtaining C&E or Second Comforter are possible?

drtanner
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by drtanner »

Lizzy60 wrote: May 29th, 2017, 6:30 pm Drtanner, I have a sincere question for you.

Do you believe that calling and election and second comforter are Christ's ordinances of salvation, and are administered by those holding priesthood authority in the Church? Or, do you believe they happen independently of official priesthood administration? Or, do you believe that both of these ways of obtaining C&E or Second Comforter are possible?
Thank you for the sincere questions. I will answer as soon as I get home.

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h_p
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by h_p »

drtanner wrote: May 29th, 2017, 4:53 pm Here is a follow up question, does anyone here who sustains the brethren and the church but feels that focusing on things like calling and election and second comforter is something that we shouldn't worry ourselves with?
The way I understand it, every blessing we receive from God is received through covenants, and eternal life would be no different. So having your calling and election made sure is just one necessary milestone on a long spiritual journey back to Christ's presence. Here's Alma receiving this blessing:
Mosiah 26:20 wrote:Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life;
My belief is that until we receive that covenant, we have no promise of eternal life, since they're one and the same. If we've made temple covenants, the promised blessings are still conditional. It's pretty simple, really. I don't know why this doctrine seems to be so controversial in the church.

drtanner
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by drtanner »

Lizzy60 wrote: May 29th, 2017, 6:30 pm Drtanner, I have a sincere question for you.

Do you believe that calling and election and second comforter are Christ's ordinances of salvation, and are administered by those holding priesthood authority in the Church? Or, do you believe they happen independently of official priesthood administration? Or, do you believe that both of these ways of obtaining C&E or Second Comforter are possible?
I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants. Christ is the administrator but it is not possible to receive of these things and not sustain Christ’s true servants on the earth.

D&C 84:
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

These men lead Christ church on the earth. We will come to know him as we align ourselves with them, of that I have absolutely no doubt.

I agree with Brigham and Joseph: Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day.’ ‘And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth’” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1897, 22–23;)

I have sat in a room one on one with one of these servants of Christ as a result of an answer to my prayer and and was taught how he gained that witness. I will never forget nor can deny what I learned by the spirit.

What wisdom is there in not discussing these blessings in depth with the general membership of the church or in conference? I hear lots of complaining and frustration but could there be wisdom in this?

diligently seeking
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by diligently seeking »

Drtanner, you admit that God must make a covenant (receiving your calling and election) with you in order to obtain eternal life. What percentage of people in your ward can you say like you-- they also know the
same? I think I confidently can say in my ward maybe one percent can express that knowledge / conviction . Also, I tell you with no feeling of joy that I might just be trying to be too optimistic with that % guess. Respectfully I ask you if knowing such knowledge (which you stated you believe it is true) and receiving such blessing(s) ones future obtaining of eternal life hangs in the balance-- does this not give you the answer to your question on the wisdom of it being taught thoroughly and in-depth and with great emphasis?
Last edited by diligently seeking on May 30th, 2017, 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

diligently seeking
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by diligently seeking »

D&C 88:

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:
2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.
3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son...

drtanner
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by drtanner »

Those who lead this church are keenly aware of these blessings and the importance they hold for all of the members. Perhaps those who would make accusations of following prophets alone and not seeking Christ don't see the irony in those called by him setting forth the pattern of actually coming to him. How many of those 1%ters in your ward truly keep the Sabbath day holy, attempt to commune with God daily, and are seeking to be fully converted? In short are trying to love God with all of their hearts and place him above all?

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gclayjr
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by gclayjr »

drtanner,
I have sat in a room one on one with one of these servants of Christ as a result of an answer to my prayer and and was taught how he gained that witness. I will never forget nor can deny what I learned by the spirit.

What wisdom is there in not discussing these blessings in depth with the general membership of the church or in conference? I hear lots of complaining and frustration but could there be wisdom in this?
Sounds like a very special experience. To answer your question. While it looks like you are taking a careful view, starting with recognizing that the general authorities, are special witnesses, and have received insights and revelations that go beyond what is commonly discussed in General Conference and other such venues, this is something that, while referenced, is not clearly discussed either by the GAs or in scriptures.

I'm sure that there are times and places for such discussions. The risk in such discussions on a board like this, is that it degenerates into wild speculations that, surprisingly enough, produces arguments to separate oneself from church orthodoxy, and seek out the blessing of "getting your calling and election made sure", as a specific gift that makes you special, instead of simply following Christ, and enduring to the end, and in doing so, letting Christ, in his own due time, bestow it upon you.

I live in Pa, for which as time goes on, I feel is a blessing. I live in a large ward, but it covers half of a county, not a few city blocks. We also have people from all kinds of economic, and ethic groups who meet together. Also, by participating in this board, I have discovered, that in Utah, there are all kinds of of heretical splinter groups out there, who seem to believe that the leaders of the have strayed, and that they have discovered some "special" truth either through revelation or discovering deep meanings in passages of scripture, that leads them to know those "hidden" truths that a corrupt church have lost!

And down that rabbit hole, go many, pridefully, to their destruction.

Regards,

George Clay

diligently seeking
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by diligently seeking »

George, the scriptures I read are abundantly clear in their discussion of the things that you mentioned if believed in and pursued would swell one with pride and lead them down a hole with rabbits... Sigh... I'm lead to believe that you with your lack of knowing of these clear significant descriptions/ admonishens in the scriptures / from Joseph Smith etc that you are lulled and flattered away and miss the mark and all is well in your Zion... I do not desire to argue with you. But I will not hedge in sharing that your line of convicton inspired Nephi to share these words with people like you.
2 Nephi 32:

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be...

I'm moving on from LDSFF for a little bit-- no doubt I will Circle back around some time.

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gclayjr
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by gclayjr »

JaredBees,
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be...

I'm moving on from LDSFF for a little bit-- no doubt I will Circle back around some time.
I don't understand where we disagree. I'm not saying these things are not important, I am saying that there are times and places for such investigation, and that with the currents of today where such discussion often center on "alternate paths", on a board such as this, it can lead down the rabbit hole.

Apparently so did Nephi!

Regards,

George Clay

drtanner
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Re: Polarizing Question

Post by drtanner »

Why not sincerely follow these prophets and sustain and support them with all of your hearts and see how this may influence your relationship with Christ? If you have feelings of frustration or resentment or feel like you have been short changed by what they teach I would invite you to reconcile these feelings and watch miracles happen in your life. They are his witnesses. They are prophets for us in our time. I have no doubt that if you are seeking to know the living God that one of the stumbling blocks the advisary will try and place between you and him is a resentment towards those who hold the keys. Ironically some of the best, kind hearted, pure individuals I know, have this wedge between them and him and do not see reality of what is keeping them from all that the father has.

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