Polarizing Question

[Jonesy]

It sounded to me like Elder Ballard was blaming the rank-and-file members, not the other way around.

That's what it sounds like to me, too. "Let's blame the leaders" is me being sarcastic.

[Lizzy60]

It sounded to me like Elder Ballard was blaming the rank-and-file members, not the other way around.

That's what it sounds like to me, too. "Let's blame the leaders" is me being sarcastic.

Got it. You forgot your sarcasm emoji ;)

[Durzan]

It sounded to me like Elder Ballard was blaming the rank-and-file members, not the other way around.

That's what it sounds like to me, too. "Let's blame the leaders" is me being sarcastic.

Got it. You forgot your sarcasm emoji ;)

The thing is, it's a two way street... what the members do/do not do affects what the Elders do/do not do, and vice versa. So you cannot really completely blame one or the other: It's a feedback loop.

[True]

This is where having a testimony that Christ is the head of the church comes in handy. Either he is or he's not.

[Silver Pie]

Either he is or he's not.

True, that.

[marc]

It sure made sense to me. It can totally see it. Those who want the mysteries can be taught by the Lord, they are not hidden. When you are hungering and thirsting after righteousness, the Lord finds you. That is the best way anyway.

And that sums it all up right there.

[Finrock]

It sounded to me like Elder Ballard was blaming the rank-and-file members, not the other way around.

That's what it sounds like to me, too. "Let's blame the leaders" is me being sarcastic.

Got it. You forgot your sarcasm emoji ;)

The thing is, it's a two way street... what the members do/do not do affects what the Elders do/do not do, and vice versa. So you cannot really completely blame one or the other: It's a feedback loop.

Exactly, although, I would say that as "leaders" they have the responsibility to "lead". In a cult when things go wrong the cult leader always blames the followers. And, the brainwashed followers take the blame and don't ask questions. Also, in a cult, you can't question or blame the leaders even if they are the ones leading the people to do or to think certain actions. In a cult the leaders are always above reproach.

Luckily, we are not a cult. We can question and blame our leaders if the direction they provide us is deficient or incomplete somehow. In large measure the leaders of the Church have great power in directing the thoughts of LDS, for better or for worse. If you pay attention to how people think and how they react to what leaders say, quite often, although not always, people will accept an idea and believe it if it has been said by a leader, even if they rejected or didn't believe the exact same idea that was said by somebody else.

I think the apostles know the power that they have to direct our thoughts, etc. So, I don't fully accept the idea that if the members were ready, or good enough, or worthy enough, the leaders would teach about our calling and election or other so called "mysteries". I think another likelihood is that the subject matter is not important to them or it is not on their radar. I think the apostles teach the things that they feel are important. Of course we are trained to believe that whatever the apostles are teaching, it is by divine directive, but I think we've seen enough factual examples to the contrary to know that this isn't always the case. If we look at the types of experiences that are talked about today, the subjects that are taught today, and so forth and compare them with what was taught and talked about during the advent of the restoration or during Joseph Smith's time, we will see a marked difference. Many subject matters that are True Blue Mormon doctrines are neglected or no longer really taught or they have been relegated to an inferior status, when in the beginning of the Restoration these doctrines were what set us apart or which were the bread and butter, so to speak, of restoration doctrine. Meaning, subject matters such as having your calling and election made sure were not taught as "mysterious" fringe ideas of inferior quality or as less important, but they were the very essence and treated as the very essence of what the gospel is in large measure about. Because, at the end of the day, your calling and election has everything to do with salvation and being a disciple of Jesus Christ. The same can be said about the second comforter, etc.

So, is it possible that over time less and less people were receiving these blessings? Because less people were receiving it, then what choice did they have but to say that it isn't as important? If less and less apostles were seeing Christ, then doesn't it make sense that less and less apostles would be teaching this doctrine and expecting the lay members to be receiving those blessings when they, themselves, were not experiencing it?

If that is not the case, how else do you explain that doctrine that was once considered central and the very core of Mormonism, has now been relegated to "mystery", peripheral, or not as important?

-Finrock

[drtanner]

The brethren are aware of this doctrine. It is not hidden and a quick search on the church's website will reveal that this doctrine is there for those who wish to learn from the church itself. Part of the wisdom I see in how it is taught from the leadership can be summed up in these words from President Faust on calling and election:

“I will not chronicle further the details concerning this calling because they are so personal and so sacred that the smallest part which one feels cannot be said. I am certain that it is an experience like none other. It is a feeling of terrible aloneness, a feeling of wounds in the heart, a feeling of sweet agony. There are the buffetings of Satan, and the encircling warm comfort of the Spirit of the Master. There are the feelings of crushing burden, self-doubt, and unworthiness–the fleeting feeling of being alone, and then of being reinforced a hundredfold. This special sacred feeling is a sustaining influence, and often a very close companion. I have prayed to be sustained in a work that I have come to appreciate more than life itself.” James E. Faust, A Testimony of Christ, BYU Devotional Address, March 1979

[lemuel]

On mysteries, they kinda have to be learned from the source. Ballard should have quoted Jesus:

JST Matthew 7: (Joseph's additions in green)

09: Go ye into the world, saying unto all, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come nigh unto you.

10: And the mysteries of the kingdom ye shall keep within yourselves; for it is not meet to give that which is holy unto the dogs,; neither cast ye your pearls before unto swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and.

11: For the world cannot receive that which ye yourselves, are not able to bear; wherefore ye shall not give your pearls unto them, lest they turn again and rend you.

07:12: Say unto them, Ask of God; ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:.

[shadow]

It seems that many on forms or discussion groups who are on the fringes of the church (or out / against the church) are those that believe and are seeking for calling and election, second comforter, etc.

Are there any who believe and are seeking for these things who whole heartedly support and believe that the 15 men who lead this church are prophets, seers, and revelators? And who believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints has the priesthood authority and is the only authorized institution to administer Christ's ordinances of salvation?

The church leaders consistently teach to read and study the Book of Mormon. There are many, many stories in the Book of Mormon of Christ visiting his followers. Church leaders also continually teach to have faith, hope and charity which are fruits of the process of coming unto Christ. Prophets and Apostles consistently testify of the reality of the living Christ. The Temple experience shows the pathway back to Christ and the Father. No need to be rocket scientists to figure out that we're being taught to seek after and receive Christ. It's plain as day. I honestly think those who not only can't see it but deny it are missing the mark by looking beyond it. I'd love to discuss it with Jaredbees if he hasn't already left LDSFF.

[brlenox]

Drtanner, I have a sincere question for you.

Do you believe that calling and election and second comforter are Christ's ordinances of salvation, and are administered by those holding priesthood authority in the Church? Or, do you believe they happen independently of official priesthood administration? Or, do you believe that both of these ways of obtaining C&E or Second Comforter are possible?

I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants. Christ is the administrator but it is not possible to receive of these things and not sustain Christ’s true servants on the earth.

D&C 84:
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

These men lead Christ church on the earth. We will come to know him as we align ourselves with them, of that I have absolutely no doubt.

This is a perfect and succinct answer, especially the first sentence, "I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants." Brilliantly stated.

[brlenox]

It sounded to me like Elder Ballard was blaming the rank-and-file members, not the other way around.

You are reading a paraphrased accounting of an incident...how can it sound like anything to you? It is not even Elder Ballard's words and you read into it some nefarious plot. Pardon me mam, but I think your bias is showing.

I refer you for a second time today to the "Why I stopped being a Feminist" thread. The principle is vital.

[EdGoble]

It seems that many on forms or discussion groups who are on the fringes of the church (or out / against the church) are those that believe and are seeking for calling and election, second comforter, etc.

Are there any who believe and are seeking for these things who whole heartedly support and believe that the 15 men who lead this church are prophets, seers, and revelators? And who believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints has the priesthood authority and is the only authorized institution to administer Christ's ordinances of salvation?

I can guarantee you that if one does not believe in them as prophets seers and revelators and wholeheartedly support them, one will never truly get calling and election and second comforter in this life or in the next, but one would end up instead with something from a false source. If one does not believe and follow them, one has already sold one's birthright for porridge unless one repents. It seems like one of the most basic requirements for Temple Worthiness, and certainly, one would not get any further blessings without temple worthiness.

[Finrock]

Drtanner, I have a sincere question for you.

Do you believe that calling and election and second comforter are Christ's ordinances of salvation, and are administered by those holding priesthood authority in the Church? Or, do you believe they happen independently of official priesthood administration? Or, do you believe that both of these ways of obtaining C&E or Second Comforter are possible?

I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants. Christ is the administrator but it is not possible to receive of these things and not sustain Christ’s true servants on the earth.

D&C 84:
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

These men lead Christ church on the earth. We will come to know him as we align ourselves with them, of that I have absolutely no doubt.

This is a perfect and succinct answer, especially the first sentence, "I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants." Brilliantly stated.

So, the question is who are the Lord's servants? And, how does one determine who the Lord's servants are?

-Finrock

[brlenox]

Drtanner, I have a sincere question for you.

Do you believe that calling and election and second comforter are Christ's ordinances of salvation, and are administered by those holding priesthood authority in the Church? Or, do you believe they happen independently of official priesthood administration? Or, do you believe that both of these ways of obtaining C&E or Second Comforter are possible?

I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants. Christ is the administrator but it is not possible to receive of these things and not sustain Christ’s true servants on the earth.

D&C 84:
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

These men lead Christ church on the earth. We will come to know him as we align ourselves with them, of that I have absolutely no doubt.

This is a perfect and succinct answer, especially the first sentence, "I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants." Brilliantly stated.

So, the question is who are the Lord's servants? And, how does one determine who the Lord's servants are?

-Finrock

There is never any question of who I think the Lords servants are and for determining the how of it I consider D & C 1, Christ's own preamble to the Doctrine and Covenants a perfect explanation.

Perhaps you might elucidate from your perspective?

[Finrock]

I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants. Christ is the administrator but it is not possible to receive of these things and not sustain Christ’s true servants on the earth.

D&C 84:
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

These men lead Christ church on the earth. We will come to know him as we align ourselves with them, of that I have absolutely no doubt.

This is a perfect and succinct answer, especially the first sentence, "I believe that receiving these blessings are conditional on receiving the Lords servants." Brilliantly stated.

So, the question is who are the Lord's servants? And, how does one determine who the Lord's servants are?

-Finrock

There is never any question of who I think the Lords servants are and for determining the how of it I consider D & C 1, Christ's own preamble to the Doctrine and Covenants a perfect explanation.

Perhaps you might elucidate from your perspective?

So, you are saying that its a foregone conclusion who the Lord's servants are and it's not even a question to be considered? What, then, in D&C 1, in your opinion, helps us to determine who the Lord's servants are? What is the secret to recognizing the Lord's servants without ever having to think or question anything because you just know?

-Finrock

[brlenox]

Sometimes I think in our earnestness we tend to look beyond the mark, certainly a challenge for me from time to time.

However, in this effort it seems that the approach is to presume understanding and or worse to convey a false understanding when there is no cause to assume such. Once again I find myself referring to the Why I stopped being a feminist thread found here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45626&sid=a13d599c8 ... 2f3cb7978

The principle that she expresses of how we really have to stop formulating answers to questions not asked but instead really try to hear what is being said first is a rarely understood concept and illustrates a high level of self - introspective honesty to even contemplate.

We'll start here to answer your question, with an additional bonus (and it is a credible and highly valuable bonus) of my perception of the nature of your questions.

So, the question is who are the Lord's servants? And, how does one determine who the Lord's servants are?

[quote="brlenox"
There is never any question of who I think the Lords servants are and for determining the how of it I consider D & C 1, Christ's own preamble to the Doctrine and Covenants a perfect explanation.

Perhaps you might elucidate from your perspective?

So, you are saying that its a foregone conclusion who the Lord's servants are and it's not even a question to be considered? What, then, in D&C 1, in your opinion, helps us to determine who the Lord's servants are? What is the secret to recognizing the Lord's servants without ever having to think or question anything because you just know?

How often I have read questions and observations such as you have made in this short run of comments and knew instantly of their source. The bonus I provide is actually not my words (otherwise how could it be so valuable)but is in the form of a story from the life of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Journal of Truman O. Angel the architect of the Salt Lake Temple. (Unless you are inclined to give William Ward the lion's share of the credit)

I provide my answer in the form of a story:

…The next day, Sunday, meeting assembled in the Temple on a loose floor which had been arranged for carpenters' benches etc., the house was partly filled, the people being seated on work benches and other things. President Joseph Smith, [Jr.,] during the meeting, arose to speak upon an order he had given to Oliver Cowdery to seek out a book for a Church Record; for such must be kept; this had been complied with, a good book had been selected and it pleased President Smith.

The book was not paid for, but was to be returned to Painesville if it did not suit; and the Prophet said he would be glad to have the Saints donate the amount, about $12.50, and make the purchase, and keep the book; it being of good paper and thoroughly well bound. A man arose near the middle of the house and said he wanted the leaves counted to see if it would not be better to buy the paper by the ream, the difference being that we might put it in a newspaper, or something of the kind. Brother Joseph spoke out and said the devil could not raise his head there, but he would know him. I note this to show the little means with which the Church was obliged to commence the history of a people destined to become great. Truman O. Angell, 1810-1887 Autobiography (1810-1856) in "His Journal," Our Pioneer Heritage 10 (1967):195-213.

Perhaps the correlation may not appear obvious, however, I think it is spot on. The pattern, and you will see it in PEC meetings, Ward Councils, High Council meetings etc is where the presiding person has spoken on something and then someone introduces an additional thought that on its surface may appear prudent, reasonable, and thought worthy that in subtle ways calls into question the direction of the presiding individual. What Joseph so brilliantly points out is occurring is that Satan is using members as tools to introduce doubt, or to bring into question presiding authorities. This question is no different and finds the source of it's "prudence", "reasonableness", and "thought worthiness" in the form of Satan induced doubt and questioning. In this instance it is Christ himself who has defined the criteria. It is not difficult to garner his meaning and it is not necessary to parse it into non-referenced criteria for evaluation. Your questions serve no greater purpose than to insert doubt about trusting that Jesus Christ will do what he promised he would do with his church AND its leaders and it does not need any qualification from any source to be so. Let the devil "raise his head" elsewhere is my advice.

Of course, I am not calling you the devil, nor even intentionally a servant of the deceiver, however, whether intentional or not to undermine Christ's words and then attempt to create doubt in the servants that Christ upholds is servant nonetheless.

Down the rabbit hole we go.....

From D & C 1, without copying the entire section for it is all very profitable, we can start with verse 14:

D & C 1:14

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

Now, pause for just a minute and really try to read and understand what he is saying here. The arm of the Lord will be revealed and the way is at least in part described as the voice of his servants and the words of the prophets and apostles. There is neither before nor after this statement any cause to doubt that he is going to have prophets as his voice and the fact that he associates the two offices together, apostles and prophets we can safely know that he is referencing those that he has called to guide his church. Not "little" prophets who fit the definition of possessing a testimony of Jesus Christ but "BIG whomp 'em with a stick prophets". If that is not true then find me a source of equal value to Christ's own words to teach me an alternative. Even a resource as non-LDS as Barnes Notes has the presence of mind to note by listing the names of those it lists as examples as genuine recognized prophets.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Surely the Lord God will do - For the Lord God "doeth"

Nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets - So our Lord saith, "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe" (John 14:29; compare John 13:19). While it is yet a "secret" counsel within Himself, He admitteth to it His servants the prophets. The same word signifies "secret" and "secret counsel with a friend." So , "God revealed to Noah that tie would bring the deluge, and to Abraham and Lot, that He would destroy the cities of the plain, and to Joseph the 7 years' famine in Egypt, and to Moses its plagues, and to Moses and Joshua all the chastisements of His people, and to Jonah the destruction of Nineveh, that they who heard of the coming punishment, might eithcr avoid it by repentance, or, if they should despise it, might be more justly punished. And so now the Lord is about to reveal through Amos, His servant and prophet, what He willeth to do to the 10 tribes, that forsaking their idols and turning to Him, they might be freed from the impending peril; which is of the great mercy of God. He foretelleth evil to come, that He may not be compelled to inflict it. For He who forewarneth, willeth not to punish sinners."

Lap.: "So He inflicted not on Egypt any plagues by the hand of Moses, but He first forewarned Pharaoh and the Egyptians by him; nor the sufferings by the Ammonites, Midianites and Philistines, related in the Book of Judges, but He foremonished Israel by Joshua Jos 23:12-16; Joshua 24:19-20; nor did He inflict on the Jews that destruction by Titus and the Romans, but He foremonished them by Christ Luke 19:42-44 and the Apostles. So neither will He bring that last destruction on the world, without having first sent the prophets and Angels, who, sounding with the seven trumpets, shall proclaim it throughout the world" Revelation 8:2.

However, let's not push a point that is irrelevant. There are times when the church is not formally organized with those apostles and prophets or is in a state of decline where apostasy and the inability to replace the prophets and apostles predominates. In times such as these, the Lord uses what resources he has and fulfills the edict of warning the people via the voice of non-specific prophets possibly outside of the hierarchy of his church which is in a state of collapse. However, we are not in those times and those conditions do not apply.

Then again, since the Lord has referenced the highest positions in apostles and prophets we can rest assured that what Joseph Smith revealed when another sought to usurp the clarity of the Lords direction of his church in the Hiram Page, "I got me a rock" incident - that where the head is the instructions from the Lord will be delivered. No mystical Hiram page startups and such will ever be called up to deliver the message of the Lord while the prophets and apostles are present.

For as the Lord states in clarity:

D & C 1:6

6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.

Only those who can draw authority by their mention in this preface to the D & C are those that have any authority.

Now we are not to understand that there will not be occasions where apostles will fall out of favor with the Lord. It has happened at least five times that I can think of off of the top of my head, excluding the sifting of the early church. However, by example we can understand that the Lord removes them in His time and the church rolls on without hardly a lasting blip for their errant ways. Never do we have any situation where the warning of Joseph that as long was we stay with the majority of the brethren has been breached. The majority has and always will lead aright in the things of the Lord spoken in behalf of the body of the church. Clearly there are times where we can exercise our privilege to ask for confirmation of the Lord for each person he places. Some think that is exercising faith to seek such an answer each and every time someone is called. For me my faith is believing that the Lord will do as he says in D & C 1. As he asks of the Brother of Jared - "believest thou the words which I shall speak". I too respond, yea Lord for thou art a God of truth and canst not lie. And that is the only forgone conclusion that is necessary when it comes to Christ's placing the proper servants in place to guide this church.

Now it is possible that this is not going to set well with you. I have read much of your material and have filed you in amongst the group claiming called and elected while invalidating the claim with incriminations upon the apostles and prophets. However, when you can self affirm doctrine outside of scripture then who needs an apostle of prophet to guide them. Case in point is this response by you on an different current thread:

Just as a matter of fact, not as a means to prove one point or another point, but as a matter of fact, if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.

-Finrock

If you can believe this kind of heresy in light of 2 Nephi 31, which precedes 2 Nephi 32, which the "called and elected" are so fond of emphasizing then you and I must agree to disagree on practically everything that comes from such a venue as much of your material seems to originate from. Consider 2 Nephi 31:

2 Nephi 31:5-12

5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!

6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.

8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.

9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

If you can see anyway to hold to your perspective then I am at a loss as to how show you any different. Now again, I am simply being my candid self, not trying to needlessly condemn you however, I do condemn certain of your doctrines. I am sure having read much of your material that you would be as direct with me as I am being with you. Perhaps it is because you are from Finland and they do not pander to political correctness as we often get stuck on here in the states. You seem sincere enough and I hope the best for you.

[gclayjr]

Brienox,

Certainly, the scalpel, is more impressive than a sledgehammer.

But is it more effective?

Regards,

George Clay

PS: To answer my own question; I doubt that you will move Finrock 1 millimeter, But your thoughts do bring more insights to truths that I already knew. Does that help make your time and effort worthwhile?

[drtanner]

I to am hopeful that this doctrine would become more meaningful to everyone. Is it not the ultimate purpose of the test of mortality? My comment would simply be that it comes because we have the priesthood keys on the earth. Would it not be axiomatic that sustaining those who hold these keys would be an important part of receiving? I also would add that I support the approach the brethren have to teaching this doctrine to the general membership and think that there is wisdom in it. If you feel otherwise and have some resentment, doubt, or any feelings of disparity towards them this is a carefully designed wedge.

D&C 131:5 “The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.”

The Prophet Joseph Smith gave an ultimate definition of salvation as having the power to overcome all enemies in this world (meaning the vices which are the opposites of gospel virtues) and “the knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come.” (Teachings, p. 297.) He further stated that the triumph over one’s enemies would come only through a knowledge of the priesthood. (See Teachings, p. 305.)
If we are to triumph over all of our enemies in this world in preparation for exaltation, wherein does the priesthood make this possible? Obedience to “the mysteries of the kingdom”—the higher ordinances of the gospel—is the answer.

Because Joseph Smith received “the keys of the mysteries of those things which have been sealed” (D&C 35:18), and because these keys remain with the prophet of the Church today, the member who keeps the commandments may receive “the mysteries of my kingdom, and the same shall be in him a well of living water, springing up unto everlasting life.” (D&C 63:23; see also D&C 42:65.)
Only through the priesthood may these blessings accrue to the member of the Church. The worthy male member must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, which holds “the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God” (D&C 84:19; see also D&C 107:18–19), in order to receive these “mysteries.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng

[BTH&T]

This is a post I copied from "Heart Hurt" that I wanted to apply to this thread as well.

Over the time I've been a part of LDSFF these threads on this subject have been ones that I give me a sense of uneasiness.

I seem to agree with AI2.0 in the thought of "process" or "reward".

The thoughts that come to my mind when thinking on this is that we should be "losing ourselves in the service of others" and not becoming "prideful in self awareness".

It seems to me that those professing to be striving for Calling & Election or the Second Comforter are striving for a badge of honor rather than living the True and Living Gospel. I sense pride, arrogance and self promotion.
Those that truly are born of the spirit and are true disciples do not try to shine a light on themselves, but rather the Light of the Gospel shines through them.

My personal experiences are very sacred and I find that we must be careful to keep them more to ourselves. This is where I believe that "by their fruits ye shall know them" comes to play.

The very spiritual experiences one has are sacred and not like some achievement to be sought after.
If we are living our lives as the Savoir has asked by being humble, meek, long-suffering, full of charity and faith, repenting and making the atonement part of our individual lives we will receive ALL the blessings that are promised.

IMO there is not a check list to be accomplished and a certain amount of spiritual knowledge and prowess to be obtained. Each of us are unique and will be judged be our hearts and efforts, line upon line.

I do believe that those that seek after spiritual gifts "for themselves" are missing the mark.
Only by losing ourselves through serving others will we find the reward.
It isn't some special to-do list that we must each accomplish.

These thoughts are not directed to any person or group, but rather meant in a general context.

[Finrock]

Sometimes I think in our earnestness we tend to look beyond the mark, certainly a challenge for me from time to time.

However, in this effort it seems that the approach is to presume understanding and or worse to convey a false understanding when there is no cause to assume such. Once again I find myself referring to the Why I stopped being a feminist thread found here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45626&sid=a13d599c8 ... 2f3cb7978

The principle that she expresses of how we really have to stop formulating answers to questions not asked but instead really try to hear what is being said first is a rarely understood concept and illustrates a high level of self - introspective honesty to even contemplate.

We'll start here to answer your question, with an additional bonus (and it is a credible and highly valuable bonus) of my perception of the nature of your questions.

So, the question is who are the Lord's servants? And, how does one determine who the Lord's servants are?

[quote="brlenox"
There is never any question of who I think the Lords servants are and for determining the how of it I consider D & C 1, Christ's own preamble to the Doctrine and Covenants a perfect explanation.

Perhaps you might elucidate from your perspective?

So, you are saying that its a foregone conclusion who the Lord's servants are and it's not even a question to be considered? What, then, in D&C 1, in your opinion, helps us to determine who the Lord's servants are? What is the secret to recognizing the Lord's servants without ever having to think or question anything because you just know?

How often I have read questions and observations such as you have made in this short run of comments and knew instantly of their source. The bonus I provide is actually not my words (otherwise how could it be so valuable)but is in the form of a story from the life of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Journal of Truman O. Angel the architect of the Salt Lake Temple. (Unless you are inclined to give William Ward the lion's share of the credit)

I provide my answer in the form of a story:

…The next day, Sunday, meeting assembled in the Temple on a loose floor which had been arranged for carpenters' benches etc., the house was partly filled, the people being seated on work benches and other things. President Joseph Smith, [Jr.,] during the meeting, arose to speak upon an order he had given to Oliver Cowdery to seek out a book for a Church Record; for such must be kept; this had been complied with, a good book had been selected and it pleased President Smith.

The book was not paid for, but was to be returned to Painesville if it did not suit; and the Prophet said he would be glad to have the Saints donate the amount, about $12.50, and make the purchase, and keep the book; it being of good paper and thoroughly well bound. A man arose near the middle of the house and said he wanted the leaves counted to see if it would not be better to buy the paper by the ream, the difference being that we might put it in a newspaper, or something of the kind. Brother Joseph spoke out and said the devil could not raise his head there, but he would know him. I note this to show the little means with which the Church was obliged to commence the history of a people destined to become great. Truman O. Angell, 1810-1887 Autobiography (1810-1856) in "His Journal," Our Pioneer Heritage 10 (1967):195-213.

Perhaps the correlation may not appear obvious, however, I think it is spot on. The pattern, and you will see it in PEC meetings, Ward Councils, High Council meetings etc is where the presiding person has spoken on something and then someone introduces an additional thought that on its surface may appear prudent, reasonable, and thought worthy that in subtle ways calls into question the direction of the presiding individual. What Joseph so brilliantly points out is occurring is that Satan is using members as tools to introduce doubt, or to bring into question presiding authorities. This question is no different and finds the source of it's "prudence", "reasonableness", and "thought worthiness" in the form of Satan induced doubt and questioning. In this instance it is Christ himself who has defined the criteria. It is not difficult to garner his meaning and it is not necessary to parse it into non-referenced criteria for evaluation. Your questions serve no greater purpose than to insert doubt about trusting that Jesus Christ will do what he promised he would do with his church AND its leaders and it does not need any qualification from any source to be so. Let the devil "raise his head" elsewhere is my advice.

Of course, I am not calling you the devil, nor even intentionally a servant of the deceiver, however, whether intentional or not to undermine Christ's words and then attempt to create doubt in the servants that Christ upholds is servant nonetheless.

Down the rabbit hole we go.....

From D & C 1, without copying the entire section for it is all very profitable, we can start with verse 14:

D & C 1:14

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

Now, pause for just a minute and really try to read and understand what he is saying here. The arm of the Lord will be revealed and the way is at least in part described as the voice of his servants and the words of the prophets and apostles. There is neither before nor after this statement any cause to doubt that he is going to have prophets as his voice and the fact that he associates the two offices together, apostles and prophets we can safely know that he is referencing those that he has called to guide his church. Not "little" prophets who fit the definition of possessing a testimony of Jesus Christ but "BIG whomp 'em with a stick prophets". If that is not true then find me a source of equal value to Christ's own words to teach me an alternative. Even a resource as non-LDS as Barnes Notes has the presence of mind to note by listing the names of those it lists as examples as genuine recognized prophets.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Surely the Lord God will do - For the Lord God "doeth"

Nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets - So our Lord saith, "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe" (John 14:29; compare John 13:19). While it is yet a "secret" counsel within Himself, He admitteth to it His servants the prophets. The same word signifies "secret" and "secret counsel with a friend." So , "God revealed to Noah that tie would bring the deluge, and to Abraham and Lot, that He would destroy the cities of the plain, and to Joseph the 7 years' famine in Egypt, and to Moses its plagues, and to Moses and Joshua all the chastisements of His people, and to Jonah the destruction of Nineveh, that they who heard of the coming punishment, might eithcr avoid it by repentance, or, if they should despise it, might be more justly punished. And so now the Lord is about to reveal through Amos, His servant and prophet, what He willeth to do to the 10 tribes, that forsaking their idols and turning to Him, they might be freed from the impending peril; which is of the great mercy of God. He foretelleth evil to come, that He may not be compelled to inflict it. For He who forewarneth, willeth not to punish sinners."

Lap.: "So He inflicted not on Egypt any plagues by the hand of Moses, but He first forewarned Pharaoh and the Egyptians by him; nor the sufferings by the Ammonites, Midianites and Philistines, related in the Book of Judges, but He foremonished Israel by Joshua Jos 23:12-16; Joshua 24:19-20; nor did He inflict on the Jews that destruction by Titus and the Romans, but He foremonished them by Christ Luke 19:42-44 and the Apostles. So neither will He bring that last destruction on the world, without having first sent the prophets and Angels, who, sounding with the seven trumpets, shall proclaim it throughout the world" Revelation 8:2.

However, let's not push a point that is irrelevant. There are times when the church is not formally organized with those apostles and prophets or is in a state of decline where apostasy and the inability to replace the prophets and apostles predominates. In times such as these, the Lord uses what resources he has and fulfills the edict of warning the people via the voice of non-specific prophets possibly outside of the hierarchy of his church which is in a state of collapse. However, we are not in those times and those conditions do not apply.

Then again, since the Lord has referenced the highest positions in apostles and prophets we can rest assured that what Joseph Smith revealed when another sought to usurp the clarity of the Lords direction of his church in the Hiram Page, "I got me a rock" incident - that where the head is the instructions from the Lord will be delivered. No mystical Hiram page startups and such will ever be called up to deliver the message of the Lord while the prophets and apostles are present.

For as the Lord states in clarity:

D & C 1:6

6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.

Only those who can draw authority by their mention in this preface to the D & C are those that have any authority.

Now we are not to understand that there will not be occasions where apostles will fall out of favor with the Lord. It has happened at least five times that I can think of off of the top of my head, excluding the sifting of the early church. However, by example we can understand that the Lord removes them in His time and the church rolls on without hardly a lasting blip for their errant ways. Never do we have any situation where the warning of Joseph that as long was we stay with the majority of the brethren has been breached. The majority has and always will lead aright in the things of the Lord spoken in behalf of the body of the church. Clearly there are times where we can exercise our privilege to ask for confirmation of the Lord for each person he places. Some think that is exercising faith to seek such an answer each and every time someone is called. For me my faith is believing that the Lord will do as he says in D & C 1. As he asks of the Brother of Jared - "believest thou the words which I shall speak". I too respond, yea Lord for thou art a God of truth and canst not lie. And that is the only forgone conclusion that is necessary when it comes to Christ's placing the proper servants in place to guide this church.

Now it is possible that this is not going to set well with you. I have read much of your material and have filed you in amongst the group claiming called and elected while invalidating the claim with incriminations upon the apostles and prophets. However, when you can self affirm doctrine outside of scripture then who needs an apostle of prophet to guide them. Case in point is this response by you on an different current thread:

Just as a matter of fact, not as a means to prove one point or another point, but as a matter of fact, if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.

-Finrock

If you can believe this kind of heresy in light of 2 Nephi 31, which precedes 2 Nephi 32, which the "called and elected" are so fond of emphasizing then you and I must agree to disagree on practically everything that comes from such a venue as much of your material seems to originate from. Consider 2 Nephi 31:

2 Nephi 31:5-12

5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!

6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.

8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.

9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

If you can see anyway to hold to your perspective then I am at a loss as to how show you any different. Now again, I am simply being my candid self, not trying to needlessly condemn you however, I do condemn certain of your doctrines. I am sure having read much of your material that you would be as direct with me as I am being with you. Perhaps it is because you are from Finland and they do not pander to political correctness as we often get stuck on here in the states. You seem sincere enough and I hope the best for you.

Excluding the comments on baptism and the personal swipe at me, what you wrote, basically boils down to this:

Don't question the authority of the Church, to do so is devilish and comes of evil.

The servants of the Lord are those who are in positions of authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Those who are in positions of authority in the Church cannot lead us astray.

No?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Now, regarding what I said here:

Just as a matter of fact, not as a means to prove one point or another point, but as a matter of fact, if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.

brlenox, you asserted, that with my statement above I have self affirmed "...doctrine outside of scripture..."

Your assertion is false. I have only summarized what has been spoken in scripture. Please consider the following proof:

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;

3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Question: How was Alvin there in the Celestial Kingdom without having been baptized for the remission of sins?

Answer: "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

Further, "all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven"

From this scripture we know the following facts: All who have died without knowledge of this gospel but would have received it, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God, without having been baptized for the remission of sins. All who shall die in the future without the knowledge of this gospel, but who would have received it will all their hearts, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom, without being baptized for the remission of sins. Finally, all children who die before the age of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven, without being baptized for the remission of sins.

Lastly, consider this scripture from Moroni 8:

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

From this scripture we learn again that all little children are alive in Christ and don't need to be baptized AND we learn that there is another set of individuals who do not need to be baptized for the remission of sins in order to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Who is this other group? All those that are without the law are not condemned and cannot repent and to such individuals baptism availeth nothing.

Deal with these scriptures as you wish, but clearly what I said is not "...doctrine outside scripture..."

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Question: How was Alvin there in the Celestial Kingdom without having been baptized for the remission of sins?

Answer: "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

Further, "all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven"

From this scripture we know the following facts: All who have died without knowledge of this gospel but would have received it, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God, without having been baptized for the remission of sins. All who shall die in the future without the knowledge of this gospel, but who would have received it will all their hearts, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom, without being baptized for the remission of sins. Finally, all children who die before the age of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven, without being baptized for the remission of sins.

Close, but unlike horse shoes and hand grenades - close isn't good enough.

There are 3 problems with your interpretation

1) you assume that the vision is in Earth time rather than a vision of what will be

2) You assume that those who died without being baptized, will not need to be baptized vicariously. I'm sure that Alvin has been baptized vicariously

3) You conflate the special circumstances of those who were unable to sin, because they were too young, or mentally incompetent, with those who merely were not taught the gospel.

These 3 logical errors make your whole construction a house of cards built on your assumption that YOUR interpretation of selected scriptures is superior to the explanations given by servants of God. So often you quote someone, a scripture or something, then you seamlessly insert your interpretation as if it were the quote.


Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Question: How was Alvin there in the Celestial Kingdom without having been baptized for the remission of sins?

Answer: "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

Further, "all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven"

From this scripture we know the following facts: All who have died without knowledge of this gospel but would have received it, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God, without having been baptized for the remission of sins. All who shall die in the future without the knowledge of this gospel, but who would have received it will all their hearts, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom, without being baptized for the remission of sins. Finally, all children who die before the age of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven, without being baptized for the remission of sins.

Close, but unlike horse shoes and hand grenades - close isn't good enough.

There are 3 problems with your interpretation

1) you assume that the vision is in Earth time rather than a vision of what will be

2) You assume that those who died without being baptized, will not need to be baptized vicariously. I'm sure that Alvin has been baptized vicariously

3) You conflate the special circumstances of those who were unable to sin, because they were too young, or mentally incompetent, with those who merely were not taught the gospel.

These 3 logical errors make your whole construction a house of cards built on your assumption that YOUR interpretation of selected scriptures is superior to the explanations given by servants of God. So often you quote someone, a scripture or something, then you seamlessly insert your interpretation as if it were the quote.


Regards,

George Clay

Thanks for sharing your interpretation and assumptions.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Your welcome!

But hey, look at it this way. If it turns out that you are mentally incompetent, then you will be automatically saved and get your C&E made sure no matter what you believe, do , or say!


Regards,

George Clay