Polarizing Question

[gclayjr]

Firnrock,

Thanks for showing that you agree with me.


Regards,

George Clayt

[Finrock]

Firnrock,

Thanks for showing that you agree with me.


Regards,

George Clayt

I know you believe you are talking about me but each post where you personally attack me you are only revealing yourself more and more. You don't have to expose yourself any more. I still forgive you and don't hold anything against you because I understand where you are at.

And, just to be clear, its not like I don't agree with anything you've said, probably just not the parts that you are thinking about.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Finrock's Conclusion:
Finrock wrote:
Just as a matter of fact, not as a means to prove one point or another point, but as a matter of fact, if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.

I'd like to be able to find common ground on your conclusion....

So, let's see how I can agree on your conclusion, which is that millions will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom without baptism while in life or by proxy. I would agree absolutely that Mormon taught that little children need no baptism because they are not accountable--what a wonderful, merciful doctrine. We've also determined that mentally disabled who do not understand sufficiently the laws of God, also fall in this category. They will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, but without the need for ordinances. So, yes, I agree with your statement as it applies to this category.



I can't put those who 'die without law' in that category though, because of the clarification in D&C 76 71-72 which says that those who 'died without law' are saved in the terrestial kingdom. HOWEVER, they can obtain the Celestial kingdom by accepting the gospel when it is preached to them in the next life. I have no reason to believe other than that they will need proxy ordinances, which, as has been mentioned, will continue to be done (with a lot more help from the other side) during the 1,000 years of the Millenium.

Also, they will need eternal sealings with a spouse for the 'highest' degree of the Celestial kingdom, but once again, mercifully, a loving God has made it so that these ordinances can be done by proxy for all those who will accept them.

[Silver Pie]

AI2.O, Brlenox, and George:

Do you all agree with this conclusion as it is written, that I have made?

Finrock's Conclusion:

Just as a matter of fact, not as a means to prove one point or another point, but as a matter of fact, if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.

Yes or No will suffice.

-Finrock

You didn't ask me, but I would have to say I disagree. For one thing, if a person is living a life that will land them in the Celestial kingdom, I think they would be living a life that would invite angels to administer to them, to give them necessary knowledge and ordinances (the Spirit baptized Adam), which would then lead them to Christ and to having experiences with Him, which would then lead to seeing the heavenly Parents. I believe that would happen in times of worldwide or local apostasy, and even during times when authority from God is on the earth, but the person in question has no knowledge of it and no way to discover it.

[Silver Pie]

That's not possible as a yes or no is not sufficient for your conclusion, because it depends on who you are referring to

I read the paragraph as referring to those with adult minds.

[brianj]

AI2.O, Brlenox, and George:

Do you all agree with this conclusion as it is written, that I have made?

Finrock's Conclusion:

Just as a matter of fact, not as a means to prove one point or another point, but as a matter of fact, if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.

Yes or No will suffice.

-Finrock

You didn't ask me, but I would have to say I disagree. For one thing, if a person is living a life that will land them in the Celestial kingdom, I think they would be living a life that would invite angels to administer to them, to give them necessary knowledge and ordinances (the Spirit baptized Adam), which would then lead them to Christ and to having experiences with Him, which would then lead to seeing the heavenly Parents. I believe that would happen in times of worldwide or local apostasy, and even during times when authority from God is on the earth, but the person in question has no knowledge of it and no way to discover it.

I'm going to open my pie hole to agree with Silver Pie. Who would be saved in the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized or receiving ordinances? Those who died before reaching the age of accountability? I think not.

Are we not taught that children who die will have the opportunity to be raised to adulthood during the Millennium? Surely they will be baptized as they reach the age of accountability during that wonderful time on Earth. If baptism and other ordinances are required for salvation, they will even be required of those born or raised in the Millennium.

[gclayjr]

brianj,

Are we not taught that children who die will have the opportunity to be raised to adulthood during the Millennium? Surely they will be baptized as they reach the age of accountability during that wonderful time on Earth. If baptism and other ordinances are required for salvation, they will even be required of those born or raised in the Millennium.

I have heard the same. It might be LDS folklore. I am not aware of any scriptures or official statements by the bretheren in regards to this. WHat we do know is that Joseph Smith inquired as to the fate of children who die before the age of accountability and it was revealed to him that they will be saved in the celestial kingdom, and that we don't need to do any baptisms for them. There surly is no scripture that says that they will never be baptized by proxy at some point in the future. it is a reasonable speculation, but a speculation only.

Interestingly, while much smoke and fog has been emitted over this to create a rhetorical stunt to pretend to force an admission to justify the real heretical position that has been presented as being based upon scriptures and statements which were definitely proven wrong, in this thread. The real question that he is trying to back into is whether regular people actually need to be baptized.

Does anybody other than Finrock believe a more honest variation of his question

if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions of mentally competent people who lived to an age of accountability who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.[/quote

But that would take his deceptive rhetorical argument away. I think that the exact details relating to step by step what will happen to either those who died as children or were not competent to choose between right and wrong (given whatever light and knowledge they did have while living) are not clear. I and the others do not want to argue over that, so we try and concede the point to Finrock, who won't accept that because he wants a silly carefully worded rhetorical question to force people to "agree" with his REAL heretical position which is that baptism, either in this life or by proxy is not really necessary for salvation.

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

brianj,

Are we not taught that children who die will have the opportunity to be raised to adulthood during the Millennium? Surely they will be baptized as they reach the age of accountability during that wonderful time on Earth. If baptism and other ordinances are required for salvation, they will even be required of those born or raised in the Millennium.

I have heard the same. It might be LDS folklore. I am not aware of any scriptures or official statements by the bretheren in regards to this. WHat we do know is that Joseph Smith inquired as to the fate of children who die before the age of accountability and it was revealed to him that they will be saved in the celestial kingdom, and that we don't need to do any baptisms for them. There surly is no scripture that says that they will never be baptized by proxy at some point in the future. it is a reasonable speculation, but a speculation only.

Interestingly, while much smoke and fog has been emitted over this to create a rhetorical stunt to pretend to force an admission to justify the real heretical position that has been presented as being based upon scriptures and statements which were definitely proven wrong, in this thread. The real question that he is trying to back into is whether regular people actually need to be baptized.

Does anybody other than Finrock believe a more honest variation of his question

if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions of mentally competent people who lived to an age of accountability who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.[/quote

But that would take his deceptive rhetorical argument away. I think that the exact details relating to step by step what will happen to either those who died as children or were not competent to choose between right and wrong (given whatever light and knowledge they did have while living) are not clear. I and the others do not want to argue over that, so we try and concede the point to Finrock, who won't accept that because he wants a silly carefully worded rhetorical question to force people to "agree" with his REAL heretical position which is that baptism, either in this life or by proxy is not really necessary for salvation.

Regards,

George Clay

:))

To know what Finrock was really saying and the point he was making see here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629&start=120#p787150

-Finrock

[Jonesy]

brianj,

Are we not taught that children who die will have the opportunity to be raised to adulthood during the Millennium? Surely they will be baptized as they reach the age of accountability during that wonderful time on Earth. If baptism and other ordinances are required for salvation, they will even be required of those born or raised in the Millennium.

I have heard the same. It might be LDS folklore. I am not aware of any scriptures or official statements by the bretheren in regards to this. WHat we do know is that Joseph Smith inquired as to the fate of children who die before the age of accountability and it was revealed to him that they will be saved in the celestial kingdom, and that we don't need to do any baptisms for them. There surly is no scripture that says that they will never be baptized by proxy at some point in the future. it is a reasonable speculation, but a speculation only.

Interestingly, while much smoke and fog has been emitted over this to create a rhetorical stunt to pretend to force an admission to justify the real heretical position that has been presented as being based upon scriptures and statements which were definitely proven wrong, in this thread. The real question that he is trying to back into is whether regular people actually need to be baptized.

Does anybody other than Finrock believe a more honest variation of his question

if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions of mentally competent people who lived to an age of accountability who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.[/quote

But that would take his deceptive rhetorical argument away. I think that the exact details relating to step by step what will happen to either those who died as children or were not competent to choose between right and wrong (given whatever light and knowledge they did have while living) are not clear. I and the others do not want to argue over that, so we try and concede the point to Finrock, who won't accept that because he wants a silly carefully worded rhetorical question to force people to "agree" with his REAL heretical position which is that baptism, either in this life or by proxy is not really necessary for salvation.

Regards,

George Clay

:))

To know what Finrock was really saying and the point he was making see here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629&start=120#p787150

-Finrock

I'm still confused, too.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=45582&p=788618#p788618

You agree outward ordinances are needed. I thought that was clear, but then I saw you point to the above that you also believe in exceptions?

[Finrock]

brianj,

Are we not taught that children who die will have the opportunity to be raised to adulthood during the Millennium? Surely they will be baptized as they reach the age of accountability during that wonderful time on Earth. If baptism and other ordinances are required for salvation, they will even be required of those born or raised in the Millennium.

I have heard the same. It might be LDS folklore. I am not aware of any scriptures or official statements by the bretheren in regards to this. WHat we do know is that Joseph Smith inquired as to the fate of children who die before the age of accountability and it was revealed to him that they will be saved in the celestial kingdom, and that we don't need to do any baptisms for them. There surly is no scripture that says that they will never be baptized by proxy at some point in the future. it is a reasonable speculation, but a speculation only.

Interestingly, while much smoke and fog has been emitted over this to create a rhetorical stunt to pretend to force an admission to justify the real heretical position that has been presented as being based upon scriptures and statements which were definitely proven wrong, in this thread. The real question that he is trying to back into is whether regular people actually need to be baptized.

Does anybody other than Finrock believe a more honest variation of his question

if the scriptures are to be believed and they represent a true record, there are likely millions of individuals who are and millions of mentally competent people who lived to an age of accountability who will be saved in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without ever being baptized by water or actually receiving any of the physical, outward ordinances as we currently understand them. They will receive them not even by proxy.[/quote

But that would take his deceptive rhetorical argument away. I think that the exact details relating to step by step what will happen to either those who died as children or were not competent to choose between right and wrong (given whatever light and knowledge they did have while living) are not clear. I and the others do not want to argue over that, so we try and concede the point to Finrock, who won't accept that because he wants a silly carefully worded rhetorical question to force people to "agree" with his REAL heretical position which is that baptism, either in this life or by proxy is not really necessary for salvation.

Regards,

George Clay

:))

To know what Finrock was really saying and the point he was making see here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629&start=120#p787150

-Finrock

I'm still confused, too.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=45582&p=788618#p788618

You agree outward ordinances are needed. I thought that was clear, but then I saw you point to the above that you also believe in exceptions?

Are you talking about the "honest" variation that George provided changing what I had said to you in the different discussion in OD?

Read the link I provided to get the summary of what my contributions to this thread have been all about. Not sure what you are confused about.

-Finrock

[Jonesy]

brianj,



I have heard the same. It might be LDS folklore. I am not aware of any scriptures or official statements by the bretheren in regards to this. WHat we do know is that Joseph Smith inquired as to the fate of children who die before the age of accountability and it was revealed to him that they will be saved in the celestial kingdom, and that we don't need to do any baptisms for them. There surly is no scripture that says that they will never be baptized by proxy at some point in the future. it is a reasonable speculation, but a speculation only.

Interestingly, while much smoke and fog has been emitted over this to create a rhetorical stunt to pretend to force an admission to justify the real heretical position that has been presented as being based upon scriptures and statements which were definitely proven wrong, in this thread. The real question that he is trying to back into is whether regular people actually need to be baptized.

Does anybody other than Finrock believe a more honest variation of his question


But that would take his deceptive rhetorical argument away. I think that the exact details relating to step by step what will happen to either those who died as children or were not competent to choose between right and wrong (given whatever light and knowledge they did have while living) are not clear. I and the others do not want to argue over that, so we try and concede the point to Finrock, who won't accept that because he wants a silly carefully worded rhetorical question to force people to "agree" with his REAL heretical position which is that baptism, either in this life or by proxy is not really necessary for salvation.

Regards,

George Clay

:))

To know what Finrock was really saying and the point he was making see here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629&start=120#p787150

-Finrock

I'm still confused, too.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=45582&p=788618#p788618

You agree outward ordinances are needed. I thought that was clear, but then I saw you point to the above that you also believe in exceptions?

Are you talking about the "honest" variation that George provided changing what I had said to you in the different discussion in OD?

Read the link I provided to get the summary of what my contributions to this thread have been all about. Not sure what you are confused about.

-Finrock

I'm talking about the link you provided where you state:

I only made the factual observation that there are exceptions in the scriptural account to those who need to be baptized

I guess I'm asking you to clarify that statement. Do you mean just children and those who are mentally handicapped, or something beyond that?

[Finrock]

:))

To know what Finrock was really saying and the point he was making see here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629&start=120#p787150

-Finrock

I'm still confused, too.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=45582&p=788618#p788618

You agree outward ordinances are needed. I thought that was clear, but then I saw you point to the above that you also believe in exceptions?

Are you talking about the "honest" variation that George provided changing what I had said to you in the different discussion in OD?

Read the link I provided to get the summary of what my contributions to this thread have been all about. Not sure what you are confused about.

-Finrock

I'm talking about the link you provided where you state:

I only made the factual observation that there are exceptions in the scriptural account to those who need to be baptized

I guess I'm asking you to clarify that statement. Do you mean just children and those who are mentally handicapped, or something beyond that?

I believe what it says in D&C 137 and Moroni 8. I accept those scriptures as they are written and at face value.

-Finrock

[Jonesy]

I'm still confused, too.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=45582&p=788618#p788618

You agree outward ordinances are needed. I thought that was clear, but then I saw you point to the above that you also believe in exceptions?

Are you talking about the "honest" variation that George provided changing what I had said to you in the different discussion in OD?

Read the link I provided to get the summary of what my contributions to this thread have been all about. Not sure what you are confused about.

-Finrock

I'm talking about the link you provided where you state:

I only made the factual observation that there are exceptions in the scriptural account to those who need to be baptized

I guess I'm asking you to clarify that statement. Do you mean just children and those who are mentally handicapped, or something beyond that?

I believe what it says in D&C 137 and Moroni 8. I accept those scriptures as they are written and at face value.

-Finrock

I'm giving you the opportunity to interpret that meaning that you say George never gave you.

[Finrock]

Are you talking about the "honest" variation that George provided changing what I had said to you in the different discussion in OD?

Read the link I provided to get the summary of what my contributions to this thread have been all about. Not sure what you are confused about.

-Finrock

I'm talking about the link you provided where you state:

I only made the factual observation that there are exceptions in the scriptural account to those who need to be baptized

I guess I'm asking you to clarify that statement. Do you mean just children and those who are mentally handicapped, or something beyond that?

I believe what it says in D&C 137 and Moroni 8. I accept those scriptures as they are written and at face value.

-Finrock

I'm giving you the opportunity to interpret that meaning that you say George never gave you.

I'm not looking to interpret anything.

To know my position in this thread I refer you again to the post I've linked to so that I don't have to rehash all of it. The statement I defended in this thread is scripturally sound, regardless how you or others might interpret D&C 137 and Moroni 8.

I believe this and accept it as it is plainly written:

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

And I believe this and accept it as it is plainly written:

All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Baptism is essential in LDS belief and since we'll all LDS we should have no problem agreeing on the doctrine of Baptism found in our scriptures in the Bible dictionary;

An important point that stood out to me from the Bible Dictionary definition;

"Baptism is not optional if one wishes the fullness of salvation"

I think that pretty much sums up the importance of Baptism. And this is important also; 'Baptism in water is the introductory ordinance of the gospel, and must be followed by baptism of the spirit in order to be complete.'

'Baptism in water has several purposes. It is for the remission of sins, for membership into the church and for entrance into the celestial kingdom; It is also the doorway to personal sanctification when followed by the reception of the Holy Ghost'.

Here is the whole explanation, which would be helpful to read through as a refresher on what the LDS church Doctrine on Baptism entails.

Baptism
From a Greek word meaning to “dip” or “immerse.” Baptism in water is the introductory ordinance of the gospel and must be followed by baptism of the Spirit in order to be complete. As one of the ordinances of the gospel, it is associated with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Baptism has always been practiced whenever the gospel of Jesus Christ has been on the earth and has been taught by men holding the holy priesthood who could administer the ordinances. Although there is some obscurity in the Bible as to the antiquity of baptism before the time of Jesus, from latter-day revelation it is clear that Adam was baptized (Moses 6:64–68) and that the patriarchs and prophets since his time have taught the gospel and administered the ordinances that pertain to the gospel. This includes both water baptism and the laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost (Moses 8:23–24). The Book of Mormon shows also that baptism was taught and practiced long before the coming of Jesus Christ (2 Ne. 31; Mosiah 18:8–17). In the New Testament, Paul speaks of the children of Israel being baptized by Moses “in the cloud and in the sea” (1 Cor. 10:1–4). Noah and Abraham are spoken of as “preachers of righteousness,” which means they taught the gospel and administered its ordinances (Gal. 3:8; Heb. 4:1–2; 2 Pet. 2:5; Moses 8:23–24).

Baptism symbolizes death, burial, and resurrection and can only be done by immersion. It is clear that John the Baptist and Philip baptized in that manner (Matt. 3:16; Acts 8:37–39; Rom. 6:1–6; Col. 2:12; D&C 20:72–74; 128:12–13). Any other method is not baptism.

We learn from latter-day revelation, which confirms the teaching in the Bible, that the Aaronic Priesthood has authority to baptize with water, whereas the Melchizedek Priesthood has power to baptize not only with water but also to confer the Holy Ghost (D&C 13; JS—H 1:68–72). We note also that John the Baptist, who had the Aaronic Priesthood, recognized this distinction and used it to illustrate one of the differences between his mission and the mission of Jesus, who had the priesthood of Melchizedek (Matt. 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:15–16; John 1:25–33; contrast Acts 8:5–25).

Baptism is not optional if one wishes the fulness of salvation. Jesus said a person must be born of water and of the Spirit (John 3:3–5). When He sent the Twelve Apostles forth to teach the gospel He told them that whosoever believed and was baptized would be saved, and whosoever did not believe would be damned (Mark 16:16). Jesus Himself was baptized “to fulfil all righteousness” (Matt. 3:15; 2 Ne. 31:4–11). But the Pharisees, being unwilling to accept the gospel, “rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized” (Luke 7:30).

Baptism in water has several purposes. It is for the remission of sins, for membership in the Church, and for entrance into the celestial kingdom; it is also the doorway to personal sanctification when followed by the reception of the Holy Ghost.

The age at which baptism should be administered is not specified in the Bible, although it is evident that candidates were to be old enough to be capable of belief and have some understanding. In latter-day revelation we learn that the Lord has set the age at eight years as the time when a person begins to become accountable and can be baptized (D&C 20:71; 68:25–28). This was also the age given in Old Testament times (JST Gen. 17:11 [Appendix]).

Baptism is a most sacred ordinance, which a person, having received it, can remember throughout life as a reminder of the personal commitment to Jesus Christ. Its symbolism is beautiful, and its consequences ever so desirable. John the Baptist had the signal honor among all men to take the Son of God into the water and baptize Him, after which he saw the Holy Ghost descend upon Jesus. By being baptized Jesus obeyed the law Himself and set the example for all mankind. See also Confirmation; John the Baptist; Laying on of hands.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/baptism

[AI2.0]

I'm talking about the link you provided where you state:



I guess I'm asking you to clarify that statement. Do you mean just children and those who are mentally handicapped, or something beyond that?

I believe what it says in D&C 137 and Moroni 8. I accept those scriptures as they are written and at face value.

-Finrock

I'm giving you the opportunity to interpret that meaning that you say George never gave you.

I'm not looking to interpret anything.

To know my position in this thread I refer you again to the post I've linked to so that I don't have to rehash all of it. The statement I defended in this thread is scripturally sound, regardless how you or others might interpret D&C 137 and Moroni 8.

I believe this and accept it as it is plainly written:

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

And I believe this and accept it as it is plainly written:

All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

-Finrock

That's fine, we all agree with this and we understand how this can be true. If we all believe LDS doctrine, then we agree that 'all those who died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God' When they accept Baptism by proper authority as performed in a temple on their behalf. Because 'Baptism is NOT optional if one wishes the fullness of salvation.' That's the purpose of Baptism by proxy performed in LDS temples.

Those verses in D&C 137 were specifically referring to Joseph's surprise that his Brother Alvin was in the Celestial Kingdom, along with his Parents, even though Alvin had not received baptism (he died before the need for baptism had been revealed to Joseph). When the doctrine of Baptism by proxy was restored, Alvin Smith WAS baptised in this manner, so that what Joseph saw in vision was eventually fulfilled (Joseph's parents were not dead when Alvin's work was performed for him).

Finrock, can you agree with this? If so, I think we'll all on the same page and there's no need to contend on this point anymore.