Mammonism: The Whore of All the Earth

[Yod]

3 Nephi 13:11, 14-15
11 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
14 For, if ye forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 6:12, 14-15
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Not paying a debt is a trespass. And, again:

Luke 11
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Can one successfully run a business if one always forgives all debts owed to him instead of requiring repayment? And if one cannot successfully run a business without requiring repayment of debts one is owed, then it seems that one must choose between either obtaining forgiveness of one's sins from God, or success at business, since one cannot have both.

But we can say more. Every business and businessman operates on the same principles: you take more than you need and keep it away from others, or else you have nothing to sell; and you sell for more than you paid, or else you do not profit.

You take more than you need because you do not trust in God and thus fear for the future, and you keep it away from others except on exchange because you do not love them.

God commands that we shall believe [trust] in him and love all, even our enemies.

This is why it is impossible to serve God and mammon.

Luke 6
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
...
46 ¶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Matthew 18
23 ¶ Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Consider this exchange.

Luke 16
13 ¶ No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

"Mammon" is the substance of this world: business, finances, food, goods, money, insurance, property, stocks, bonds, savings accounts, credit cards, degrees, credentials, licenses, and so on. It is the temporal stuff we build up to see us through the trials of life, to comfort us in our afflictions, to free us from fear (especially fear of men, fear of want, fear of need, fear of the future), and so on - it is the stuff we place our confidence in. Mammon is the idol/God of this world.

"Covetous" means they wanted to build up possessions for themselves - or, in other words, they wanted to get rich.

In this light, listen to Paul.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry[.]

Having adequate nourishment (diatrophas) and decent covering (skepasmata) we shall with these suffice ourselves (arkesthesometha). But those who want to be rich (ploutein) fall into temptation (peirasmon, a test) and a snare (pagida, a trap, noose, decoy), and into hankering for many things (epithumias, a passionate desire to possess) which are silly (anoetous; mindless, senseless) and harmful (blaberas), and which drag (buthizousi, plunge) human beings down to ruin (olethron, deadly danger) and utter destruction (apoleian). For the root (rhiza) of all evil doings (panton ton kakon) is the desire for money (philargyria, cash–loving), being driven by which people have gone astray, got lost (apeplanesthesan, Heb. abad, stray from the path) from the faith and become hopelessly involved (peripeiran, spitted, engangled) in agonizing situations (odunais, rapids, pangs). But thou, O man of God, keep away from these things (1 Timothy 6:8–11).

This is the alternative that Christ offers us.

Matthew 6
24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Do what he says to do with your stuff and he will both feed and clothe you.

1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

[drtanner]

D&C 84:
112 And the bishop, Newel K. Whitney, also should travel round about and among all the churches, searching after the poor to administer to their wants by humbling the rich and the proud.
113 He should also employ an agent to take charge and to do his secular business as he shall direct.

What was Newel K Whitney's secular business? Was he making a profit? Did the lord bless his secular business so he could be blessed to do his work as a bishop and help the poor?

[Yod]

Those are good questions. And here's how we can find them out, if it truly matters to us.

2 Nephi 18:19 And when they shall say unto you: Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep and mutter—should not a people seek unto their God for the living to hear from the dead?

After all:

1 Nephi 15:11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—
If ye will not harden your hearts, and
ask me in faith,
believing that ye shall receive,
with diligence in keeping my commandments,
surely these things shall be made known unto you.

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Therefore, ask of God and find out NKW's state before him, the manner of life he lived, and so on. Or, perhaps it would be better to spend the time one would otherwise spend on one's knees pleading for God to tell one about NKW to instead ask God what his will is concerning oneself, whether one should obey the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ as found in 3 Nephi 12-14. It's really up to you as to which is a better use of your time, isn't it?

[marc]

I think he's gone for good this time.

[shadow]

Speaking of questions,

Is this you You Yod???

My name is Jared Livesey, and I reside in Bakersfield, CA.

I am an inactive member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("LDS Church").

I have been baptized again outside the auspices of the LDS Church because I believe Denver Snuffer has truthfully reported that Jesus Christ renewed the commandment to be baptized and so-called "rebaptism" is no longer a service that the LDS Church provides for members.

It can't be. Livesey follows Denver Snuffer and yet Denver Snuffer has a law degree and owns a money making law business #-o
Certainly Log, or Yod or whoever wouldn't be so hypocritical to preach contrary to those 2 damnable things (according to Yod's interpretation) and yet follow Snuffer would he? :ymsigh:

[Rose Garden]

I think he's gone for good this time.

I don't think that's possible.

[Finrock]

I think he's gone for good this time.

I don't think that's possible.

Why do you think that?

-Finrock

[marc]

I think he's gone for good this time.

I don't think that's possible.

I know him. When he first started posting on this forum, he kinda rubbed me the wrong way, but I wanted to get to know him so I reached out. We've had some profound discussions and I'm a better man for it. I don't care what people believe. I actually take the 11th article of faith to heart. What I do care about, which I avoid now are disputations. Contentions, jarrings, etc have no place in my life. People's beliefs or lack thereof are between them and the Lord. I am fully capable of taking my question directly to the Lord and spending hours, days and weeks on end studying them. I've spent years on Isaiah now, for example. Anyway, if I were a betting man, I'd lay ten to one odds that he doesn't return. The only way I could see him returning is if the Lord commanded him to. And he's all about keeping the Lord commandments. At least that's what he claims, anyway.

[Rose Garden]

I think he's gone for good this time.

I don't think that's possible.

Why do you think that?

-Finrock

His nature tends to bring him back.

[Rose Garden]

I think he's gone for good this time.

I don't think that's possible.

I know him. When he first started posting on this forum, he kinda rubbed me the wrong way, but I wanted to get to know him so I reached out. We've had some profound discussions and I'm a better man for it. I don't care what people believe. I actually take the 11th article of faith to heart. What I do care about, which I avoid now are disputations. Contentions, jarrings, etc have no place in my life. People's beliefs or lack thereof are between them and the Lord. I am fully capable of taking my question directly to the Lord and spending hours, days and weeks on end studying them. I've spent years on Isaiah now, for example. Anyway, if I were a betting man, I'd lay ten to one odds that he doesn't return. The only way I could see him returning is if the Lord commanded him to. And he's all about keeping the Lord commandments. At least that's what he claims, anyway.

I haven't been following his posts. Did he get kicked off or did he leave?

I personally would like to see a world where Yod would be welcome and comfortable. But for many reasons, that is not possible here. Many of his posts and insights are quite interesting but his manner offends many people. I've learned over the years not to be offended by him. It is an effort worth making.

[marc]

I haven't been following his posts. Did he get kicked off or did he leave?

Both.

[Rose Garden]

I haven't been following his posts. Did he get kicked off or did he leave?

Both.

Sounds like him.

[shadow]

I personally would like to see a world where Yod would be welcome and comfortable. But for many reasons, that is not possible here.

The main reason it's not possible here is that he isn't welcoming.

[drtanner]

I try and be as open as possible to all truth, but I am sensitive when I feel there is an intent to deceive or pull people away from the saving truths. I agree with Brigham:

It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their Elder Brother, being at their head) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, … to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and bring it to Zion (DBY, 248).

That being said if you let a catholic minister in your church to gather his truths and he deliberately starts teaching things with the intent to fill his pews you have an obligation do something about it.

[Rose Garden]

I personally would like to see a world where Yod would be welcome and comfortable. But for many reasons, that is not possible here.

The main reason it's not possible here is that he isn't welcoming.

Yes, I understand that he primarily is responsible for the difficulties that occur any time he converses on a forum. I think a group that was compassionate enough would be able to deal with him without getting sucked into the constant debates, but that would be a very rare group indeed. Additionally, I don't know that he would remain among them if no one was gratifying his need to argue. So, anyway, like I said, for many reasons, that is not possible here (or anywhere else I know of.)

[marc]

I try and be as open as possible to all truth, but I am sensitive when I feel there is an intent to deceive or pull people away from the saving truths. I agree with Brigham:

It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their Elder Brother, being at their head) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, … to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and bring it to Zion (DBY, 248).

That being said if you let a catholic minister in your church to gather his truths and he deliberately starts teaching things with the intent to fill his pews you have an obligation do something about it.

Joseph Smith once invited a minister to his home and allowed him to teach for some time. Afterward, he sent the minister on his merry way after rebuking him. Some more quotes from Joseph Smith:

God does not teach truths on which our salvation or damnation hang through half-remembered second-hand utterances. When saving truth is taught, it is taught by true witnesses who simply report what they have seen and heard. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this." -TPJS (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith), p.160

A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. TPJS, p. 137

I may believe that Enoch walked with God. I may believe that Abraham communed with God and conversed with angels. I may believe that Isaac obtained a renewal of the covenant made to Abraham by the direct voice of the Lord. I may believe that Jacob conversed with holy angels and heard the word of his Maker, that he wrestled with the angel until he prevailed and obtained a blessing. I may believe that Elijah was taken to heaven in a chariot of fire with fiery horses. I may believe that the saints saw the Lord and conversed with him face to face after his resurrection. I may believe that the Hebrew church came to Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. I may believe that they looked into eternity and saw the Judge of all, and Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant. But will all this purchase an assurance for me, or waft me to the regions of eternal day with my garments spotless, pure, and white? Or, must I not rather obtain for myself, by my own faith and diligence in keeping the commandments of the Lord, an assurance of salvation for myself? And have I not an equal privilege with the ancient saints? And will not the Lord hear my prayers and listen to my cries as soon as he ever did to theirs if I come to him in the manner they did?
(Chapter 10: Prayer and Personal Revelation,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007), 125–34)

Anyway, I hope this doctrine becomes more meaningful to members of the church as it does to me:

Ether 4:13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Key words: Rend, veil, unbelief.

[drtanner]

I to am hopeful that this doctrine would become more meaningful to everyone. Is it not the ultimate purpose of the test of mortality? My comment would simply be that it comes because we have the priesthood keys on the earth. Would it not be axiomatic that sustaining those who hold these keys would be an important part of receiving? I also would add that I support the approach the brethren have to teaching this doctrine to the general membership and think that there is wisdom in it. If you feel otherwise and have some resentment, doubt, or any feelings of disparity towards them this is a carefully designed wedge.

D&C 131:5 “The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.”

The Prophet Joseph Smith gave an ultimate definition of salvation as having the power to overcome all enemies in this world (meaning the vices which are the opposites of gospel virtues) and “the knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come.” (Teachings, p. 297.) He further stated that the triumph over one’s enemies would come only through a knowledge of the priesthood. (See Teachings, p. 305.)
If we are to triumph over all of our enemies in this world in preparation for exaltation, wherein does the priesthood make this possible? Obedience to “the mysteries of the kingdom”—the higher ordinances of the gospel—is the answer.

Because Joseph Smith received “the keys of the mysteries of those things which have been sealed” (D&C 35:18), and because these keys remain with the prophet of the Church today, the member who keeps the commandments may receive “the mysteries of my kingdom, and the same shall be in him a well of living water, springing up unto everlasting life.” (D&C 63:23; see also D&C 42:65.)
Only through the priesthood may these blessings accrue to the member of the Church. The worthy male member must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, which holds “the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God” (D&C 84:19; see also D&C 107:18–19), in order to receive these “mysteries.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng

[marc]

If you feel otherwise and have some resentment, doubt, or any feelings of disparity towards them this is a carefully designed wedge.

I do not believe I can be reconciled with Jesus Christ if I am not reconciled with anybody here on earth, whether the president of the church or the beggar whose breath stinks of booze. It is the same.

D&C 131:5 “The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood...”

...He further stated that the triumph over one’s enemies would come only through a knowledge of the priesthood. (See Teachings, p. 305.)

Jesus alone seals one up. He alone, by the calling of His own voice covenants with man. I know this because Jesus Christ has covenanted with me by His own voice.

Yes, we must be ordained to priesthood, which keys were given to Joseph Smith. However:

D&C 84:40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

This priesthood, which God alone confirms upon you, is the fulness. Although you may have been ordained to the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood, it is not the fulness. It is only a portion, which portion God did not take away when He took Joseph Smith. For example, we read in D&C that Adam ordained Enoch. Jethro ordained Moses, etc, etc. But one must still "come unto 'this priesthood'" which is what the patriarchs did as we read in D&C 107. Thus by the "oath and covenant" that God personally makes to each who comes unto this priesthood (D&C 84) after previously being ordained by man, do they obtain that fullness from God directly, which power in the priesthood enables them to turn rivers from their courses, set at defiance the armies of nations, etc.

Did Enoch sustain Adam? Sure. Did Moses sustain Jethro? Sure. More important and paramount, however is to personally come unto the fullness, which God commanded in D&C 84. And that is what has always been done.

JST Genesis 14:26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.

We begin to unfold the mystery of the priesthood, the portion which one in the church possesses and the fulness, which only God grants by His own voice by covenant. And it is this priesthood, which grants a man power by faith to work miracles.

30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;

31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.

Should one sustain the prophet? Sure! But God wants us all to be "prophets" that we may all have this priesthood, or in other words, association with God and Gods and angels.

Numbers 11:25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

The people refused to go up the mount with Moses. But two prophecied by faith, which Joshua resented. He wanted Eldad and Medad to fall in line and respect the hierarchy because only Moses had the keys. But the Lord wanted to redeem everyone and grant everyone the fullness of His priesthood, which they refused. They did not "come unto this priesthood." So what did sustaining Moses get them then? Not the fullness. They ended up with only the Aaronic priesthood instead so that they could continue their ordinances and performances, all of which pointed to what they ultimately had just rejected, ironically. And that is why the Lord pronounces one wo unto all who do not come unto this priesthood (D&C 84:42), which God alone confirms to those who come to Him.

And this brings me back to my previous comment. One can sustain all the general authorities of the church and be a faithful temple recommend holder and still not "come unto this priesthood." The very first words of the temple endowment ceremony verifies that we have not been hereafter sealed up, but merely anointed, and that to be sealed up comes only according to one's faithfulness in one's efforts to become sealed up. And that doesn't happen at the veil by a gentle temple worker who represents the Lord. It happens only by Jesus, Himself, who stands at the veil waiting for one to rend it as I quoted previously in Ether chapter 4. This brings us full circle.

[drtanner]

Marc,

I love you brother. Your desire to come to Christ is sincere, real, and inspiring. Thank you for not just seeking but also doing his will so you may know. I apologize if my overzealousness in defending these men has created any animosity. I love them because I know they love him. I am drawn to the light they possess and am inspired by their desire to serve him with all of their hearts. I am also drawn to the light you possess and hope you never give up your pit bull determination to find him and share with us what you learn along the way.

[marc]

Marc,

I love you brother. Your desire to come to Christ is sincere, real, and inspiring. Thank you for not just seeking but also doing his will so you may know. I apologize if my overzealousness in defending these men has created any animosity. I love them because I know they love him. I am drawn to the light they possess and am inspired by their desire to serve him with all of their hearts. I am also drawn to the light you possess and hope you never give up your pit bull determination to find him and share with us what you learn along the way.

Thank you for your kind words. I only continue to share these things, not because I think I'm special. I'm not. I am a fool and a wretched man and a sinner. I get why Nephi lamented as he did in 2 Nephi 4. I am in constant daily need of Christ's grace. But I continue to share these things as gently as I know how, trying not to contend or dispute, but only to inform so that others can experience the same things. There is more. There is so much more for us to reach for, myself included. Perhaps one day in fast and testimony meeting, more testimonies will be shared of miracles--causing the lame to walk, the blind to see, the dead to be raised, a mountain moved, you get the idea. This will happen when more members can become one with the Lord and thus one with another. Then the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit will be present as promised in the D&C. I love you, too, drtanner.

[Finrock]

If we are to honor any man, we ought to honor all men. If we are to honor any member of this body or this Church, we are to honor them all. If anything, as Paul said, the least among us should receive the most honor. No member is greater or more important than the other. There should be no respect of men. We ought not to esteem one flesh above another. No man should seek to be esteemed above his brethren and sisters.

It is the respect of men and the esteeming of one flesh above another flesh that I take issue with. If you defend the Brethren, be sure you have as much zeal to defend the least amongst us, otherwise, you are a hypocrite. Just a fact, not an accusation.

-Finrock