Heart hurt...

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diligently seeking
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Heart hurt...

Post by diligently seeking »

My sweet 3 months away from being 4 year old girl --I had to help her read the scripture in primary today. In asking what scripture she was assigned-- they said you pick the one you want". So I picked something sweet and simple yet beautiful and profound... "where your heart is there your treasure will be also" I promptly made my way to Sunday school after this satisfying little experience to learn that the lesson was on D&C 76 .As we got to the point where they were talking about Celestial Kingdom requirements--- a very faithful ward member, probably in her mid-sixties, made the statement that when she was a young adult there was consistent emphasis placed / taught in the church about receiving your calling and election and laying hold upon the deeper things in the Kingdom. This sister expressed her gratitude on what has been taught for the last little while in church (the past 4 decades) about Just having to endure to the end. Comments were flying around in agreeance about how we should not look beyond the mark etc. It was such a struggle and challenge for me to hear all this. More than anything it was very sad for me to realize that this is and has been where we are at in the church for some time... the more I read and truly understand the scriptures the more sad I am by the narrative in church that suggest a different type of hungering and thirsting and obtaining then what holy writ and the Prophet Joseph Smith etc admonised... There is so much treasure to lay hold upon . Is it safe to say hearts have and are waxing cold in our desire and understanding in the necessity of obtaining these **salvational truths**? These "said" most important truths have been and are tragically minimized in Church.

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brlenox
A sheep in wolf in sheep's clothing
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by brlenox »

JaredBees wrote: May 28th, 2017, 11:12 pm My sweet 3 months away from being 4 year old girl --I had to help her read the scripture in primary today. In asking what scripture she was assigned-- they said you pick the one you want". So I picked something sweet and simple yet beautiful and profound... "where your heart is there your treasure will be also" I promptly made my way to Sunday school after this satisfying little experience to learn that the lesson was on D&C 76 .As we got to the point where they were talking about Celestial Kingdom requirements--- a very faithful ward member, probably in her mid-sixties, made the statement that when she was a young adult there was consistent emphasis placed / taught in the church about receiving your calling and election and laying hold upon the deeper things in the Kingdom. This sister expressed her gratitude on what has been taught for the last little while in church (the past 4 decades) about Just having to endure to the end. Comments were flying around in agreeance about how we should not look beyond the mark etc. It was such a struggle and challenge for me to hear all this. More than anything it was very sad for me to realize that this is and has been where we are at in the church for some time... the more I read and truly understand the scriptures the more sad I am by the narrative in church that suggest a different type of hungering and thirsting and obtaining then what holy writ and the Prophet Joseph Smith etc admonised... There is so much treasure to lay hold upon . Is it safe to say hearts have and are waxing cold in our desire and understanding in the necessity of obtaining these **salvational truths**? These "said" most important truths have been and are tragically minimized in Church.
There is a very real state of being that exists within the boundaries of the membership. It is not much different than in the preexistence. We have groups of people. Some are what D & C would call the valiant. The ones that sincerely make every effort to understand the truth exactly and who will move heaven and earth to see the Lord successful in his efforts to establish his kingdom. They seek nothing but his glory and desire only to do his will.

There are other groups, some are content to follow along and not put as much effort into the process as they might. They are wonderful folks in most cases, very kind and thoughtful but lacking some degree of motivation that places them outside of the valiant.

There is a group that are tares. They do not sustain the wheat but simply seek to undermine the wheat's efforts to grow to a point to be harvestable. In fact the tares by nature seem to resemble the wheat until the point of the harvest which is the clearest point in which one can tell a wheat from a tare. They resemble each other so carefully that it is not until the point that the seed (the fruit if you will) is manifest that you can tell them apart. Darnel grass, the real name for the plant we call a tare is only known by its fruit to be any different than wheat.

There are other groups as well. In the preexistence we had one group who focused more on personal exaltation. They wanted to establish their kingdom and receive honor unto themselves through some other means than was that defined by our Father in Heaven. Their leader was vociferous in his declarations that he knew the means - the quickest way if you will - to make their calling and election sure for none would be lost.

It is interesting that the valiant ones will seldom mention their objectives for exaltation. They are far to engaged building up the kingdom of God, selflessly, and tirelessly giving all they have to find a lost sheep of a young man who has wandered. And they genuinely care for that young man to the point of tears in their prayers that they can somehow reach out and pull him back in. Others are hoping to succor the unwed mother in their midst, remembering what it was like when they first were mothers and how terrified they were. Now, seeing her challenges, they can't imagine doing it alone and so they reach out and tenderly love, and suffer while loving, for the trials this young one bears. And so the valiant gather, and nurture, and seek to serve wherever and in whatever means they can to build the kingdom.

Sometimes, I have learned over the years that the most valiant actually know very little about the technical terminologies that accompany the concepts of calling and election. Were I sitting in your class when this subject, I might have, no I absolutely positively would have, contributed to the conversation as a means of balancing and soothing the nature of the misunderstanding about the specifics of the definitions of the doctrine.

However, I would never make the mistake of thinking that simply because a few words of definition had escaped someone's periphery that they were lost for not knowing what the terms "calling and election" mean. For far better is it, in my estimation of things, to be caught DOING the process of making ones calling and election sure, using the tried and generally long method of personal sacrifice in behalf of others while building with an eye single the kingdom of God, than it is to be reading all about the terminologies and looking for shortcuts in the achievement thereof.

Yes there are many who have only barely heard the terms "calling and election" and really don't quite seem to grasp the personal imperative. However, though I can spin circles around most when discussing and defining this doctrine of "calling and election" and who said what and when and what verses apply to this element, I am not so presumptuous as to think it somehow puts me ahead of the valiant. Only to the degree that I share their desire to build up the kingdom of God does any of my knowledge benefit me. I know when one of those, who seems a little short on the explanations of calling and election, is one of these valiant, then I know someone who knows more than definitions of calling and election, they know what it is to be called and elected, and how to act called and elected, and how to appear called and elected for the very simple fact that they seek to fulfill their duty in being called, and they labor as the called. They expect, and justly so that they will get the election part when they receive all that the Lord has in His timeframe, in His way, and according to His will.

I never mistake who my teacher(s) is in these matters, as it is He that gave all he had with no thought to his own exaltation but sought only to build the Kingdom of his Father...and it is those who like him continue to give all that they have for the same cause.

Finrock
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by Finrock »

What is this "shortcut" to receiving your calling and election that everyone keeps referencing or mentioning? How does that even work?

Honestly, I think there is a lot of confusion what it means to receive your calling and election and this is a direct result of this doctrine no longer being taught unequivocally or in a straightforward, unambiguous way. Because this doctrine has been relegated to the "not really important right now" or "don't worry about it" bin, there is much confusion as to what it is, what it means, and how one obtains it. There is a lot of Mormon "myth" associated to this doctrine.

Anyways, I'm digressing from my question. What is this "shortcut" to your C&E that keeps being referenced?

-Finrock

BackBlast
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by BackBlast »

brlenox wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:13 pm There are other groups as well. In the preexistence we had one group who focused more on personal exaltation. They wanted to establish their kingdom and receive honor unto themselves through some other means than was that defined by our Father in Heaven. Their leader was vociferous in his declarations that he knew the means - the quickest way if you will - to make their calling and election sure for none would be lost.
This makes no sense. Calling and election are given by God, they are not some "other means". You are referring to a short cut and then calling the actual path the short cut. You are probably referring to a counterfeit :).
Sometimes, I have learned over the years that the most valiant actually know very little about the technical terminologies that accompany the concepts of calling and election.
No man can be saved in ignorance. As some point this stuff needs to be understood. Though I tend to agree that the path of progression is built to advance those who's hearts are there over their minds.
However, I would never make the mistake of thinking that simply because a few words of definition had escaped someone's periphery that they were lost for not knowing what the terms "calling and election" mean. For far better is it, in my estimation of things, to be caught DOING the process of making ones calling and election sure, using the tried and generally long method of personal sacrifice in behalf of others while building with an eye single the kingdom of God, than it is to be reading all about the terminologies and looking for shortcuts in the achievement thereof.
I don't think there are any shortcuts.

However, there are people who merit blessings that they do not receive because they are unwilling to receive them. This is the group that benefits most from knowledge. It is that knowledge that can remove their stumbling block - then they can open up and ask for and receive the blessings that they have already qualified for but have refused to date. I think our culture tends to end up with quite a few people in this category because we make the requirements appear so impossibly hard that we do not really believe that we can obtain them. Thus we blind ourselves and refuse blessings freely offered unto us.

Agency is honored, even unto the refusal of blessings and boons we merit.

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h_p
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by h_p »

BackBlast wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:59 pm I don't think there are any shortcuts.
I think there's a large number of people in the church (I was one of them) who believe that the path to the Celestial Kingdom is something like this:
1. Get baptized and confirmed
2. Get the priesthood
3. Go on a mission
4. Get married in the temple
5. Die as an active member of the church (ie, endure to the end)
6. On judgement day, plea for leniency before the Judge

I think, if anything, that's the shortcut, because it's easy and false. It doesn't really require the sacrifice that is actually required, and pretty much any culture-Mormon can do it.

I dunno, I said I think there's a large number who think like that, but maybe I'm the only one. It just seemed to match up pretty well with what I thought I was always hearing in church talks and GC. If I'm the only blind idiot in the church, I'd consider that a good thing.

BackBlast
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by BackBlast »

I think, if anything, that's the shortcut, because it's easy and false. It doesn't really require the sacrifice that is actually required, and pretty much any culture-Mormon can do it.
Some may well consider that the short cut. But honestly, if not done with your full heart I find that a path of pain, sorrow, stress and disappointment. Why not just actually give you heart to the Lord and reap all the boons and blessings that can be yours along the way? Yes, it's initially harder to make that step, but having the Holy Ghost with you is like having a super power! Progression is easier and faster and full of light. You end up just wanting to make all those sacrifices and there is a generally upbeat feeling to it all even when it's hard or sorrowful.

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h_p
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by h_p »

BackBlast wrote: May 31st, 2017, 2:58 pm Why not just actually give you heart to the Lord and reap all the boons and blessings that can be yours along the way? Yes, it's initially harder to make that step, but having the Holy Ghost with you is like having a super power! Progression is easier and faster and full of light. You end up just wanting to make all those sacrifices and there is a generally upbeat feeling to it all even when it's hard or sorrowful.
Totally agree. But a close friend of mine has confided in me that to take that first step of giving yourself completely over to the Lord is pretty terrifying. He has some fears about what will happen to him if he does so--like what will God require him to give up, will he have to sacrifice his children, etc. (Not literally sacrifice them, of course.) That's certainly a common fear, I think. It's probably what's holding most of us back. I know I'm still trying to be completely honest with myself over what I'm actually willing to sacrifice. As I took that step myself, I admit I did have some fear about what was coming, and I can say that though it's been incredibly rewarding, this period of my life has also been the most painful I've ever experienced.

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brlenox
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by brlenox »

BackBlast wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:59 pm
brlenox wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:13 pm There are other groups as well. In the preexistence we had one group who focused more on personal exaltation. They wanted to establish their kingdom and receive honor unto themselves through some other means than was that defined by our Father in Heaven. Their leader was vociferous in his declarations that he knew the means - the quickest way if you will - to make their calling and election sure for none would be lost.
This makes no sense. Calling and election are given by God, they are not some "other means". You are referring to a short cut and then calling the actual path the short cut. You are probably referring to a counterfeit :).
Sometimes, I have learned over the years that the most valiant actually know very little about the technical terminologies that accompany the concepts of calling and election.
No man can be saved in ignorance. As some point this stuff needs to be understood. Though I tend to agree that the path of progression is built to advance those who's hearts are there over their minds.
However, I would never make the mistake of thinking that simply because a few words of definition had escaped someone's periphery that they were lost for not knowing what the terms "calling and election" mean. For far better is it, in my estimation of things, to be caught DOING the process of making ones calling and election sure, using the tried and generally long method of personal sacrifice in behalf of others while building with an eye single the kingdom of God, than it is to be reading all about the terminologies and looking for shortcuts in the achievement thereof.
I don't think there are any shortcuts.

However, there are people who merit blessings that they do not receive because they are unwilling to receive them. This is the group that benefits most from knowledge. It is that knowledge that can remove their stumbling block - then they can open up and ask for and receive the blessings that they have already qualified for but have refused to date. I think our culture tends to end up with quite a few people in this category because we make the requirements appear so impossibly hard that we do not really believe that we can obtain them. Thus we blind ourselves and refuse blessings freely offered unto us.

Agency is honored, even unto the refusal of blessings and boons we merit.
Usually, I can predict upon what points, of one of my posts, I am going to get push back and often by whom. This time however, while I easily could guess on what points I am a bit surprised that it is you. However, acknowledging that you don't have as much history here as some of us I am guessing that you missed some of my references, not knowing of what I reference...but that's okay. I think I only need to address one of these questions to at least give you perspective upon my perspective. As well I will give the link which underscores the majority of my seeming "odd" references. However, we will start here with these quotes:
brlenox wrote: Sometimes, I have learned over the years that the most valiant actually know very little about the technical terminologies that accompany the concepts of calling and election.
backblast responds as he wrote: No man can be saved in ignorance. As some point this stuff needs to be understood. Though I tend to agree that the path of progression is built to advance those who's hearts are there over their minds.
If we consider the fundamental meaning of Calling and Election made sure, it means nothing more than a guarantee of eternal life granted while in this life. To the ends of support I will add this quote by Elder Bruce R. McConkie:
To have one’s calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father’s kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is ‘set down’ with his ‘Father in his throne.’ (Rev. 3:21.) (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 973, 3:330–31)
As to the process, I really appreciate what President Kimball has to say on the matter:
I have learned that where there is a prayerful heart, a hungering after righteousness, a forsaking of sins, and obedience to the commandments of God, the Lord pours out more and more light until one finally has power to pierce the heavenly veil and to know more than man knows. Such a person has a priceless promise that one day he will see the Lord's face and know that he is (see D&C 93:1).” – The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball
Of course this is a direct reference to calling and election. It sounds really nice and such but how would we identify the process of the Lord pouring out more and more light so that we might not fret so much about thinking that "I better ask...oh my gosh, If I don't know the questions I may miss all of the blessings even though I gave all that I had to the building up of the kingdom...Oh no the brethren didn't tell me that, it's their fault - how was I supposed to know to ask for my calling and election...I've lost everything ... aaaaggghhhh!" And I guess that is a reasonable response if you believe it is the brethren who have to keep the promise to make your calling and election sure. However, while they have a major role in the process it is not exactly their promise to keep. Let's examine D & C 33:6
D & C 33:6
6 And even so will I gather mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, even as many as will believe in me, and hearken unto my voice.
Ultimately, when all of the missionary work is done, a major role we as individuals play in the gathering process, it is God the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ who has promised to gather the elect. It is God's job and if anyone who has fulfilled the requirements does not get gathered it won't be the brethren answering the question of "how come you missed me?"

Fortunately, we do have several examples in scripture were we see those who are not asking any question about calling and election and yet are receiving their calling and election or are at least in the process. (Nephi, The Brother of Jared, Alma, the other Nephi etc.) One of my favorites though, is illustrative of the middle of the process, where the Lord teaches what is needed when it is appropriate as he prepares the saints to receive their calling and election.

Let's look at D & C 19:9:
D & C 19:9

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
The phrase "that you may enter into my rest" is code for calling and election. We get this from D & C 84:19-26:
D & C 84:19-26

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.
20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;
(D&C 84:19-26.)
Now this entire verse above is one known to the valiant that I speak of and yet nary a mention of the words "calling and election made sure" is found in the whole of the section in which it resides. However, it is a precise and clear reference to the doctrine in as clear a set of words found anywhere.

Now back to D & C 19. The point, for this discussion, is not so much about what is going to be revealed by God that prepares them to enter into his rest all though it is extremely fascinating to ponder upon the implications. The point is that there were some things that these brethren did not understand correctly. And the Lord says to them that He needs to correct information that is commonly taught but is clearly misunderstood, and why does he have to do this? For some reason, a conversation for a different day, their misunderstanding will keep them from entering into his rest. So true to His word, the Lord illustrates the process of how He will keep His word to gather His elect. And it is graceful and effortless and we read right over it most of the time not realizing what a profound occurrence it is to have the Lord teach you something so significant specifically to prepare you to move forward in the process of entering into his rest or as some insist, "making your calling and election sure".

If you are seeking the blessing of entering into the rest of the Lord, or in other words, having your calling and election made sure, and are wise you see this very process taking place in your own life. Your are learning a few things via the spirit of revelation, be it angels, inspiration, confirmation of the words of your great, great, grandfather as you read his journal that indicate you are on the road to having your own calling and election made sure. You may not know the phrase "calling and election" but I can assure you the valiant have had it placed in their mind to plead to enter into his rest. Like beggars, they earnestly, seek to enter into his rest and they seek it with all of their hearts as they continue to dedicate their lives to doing his will. They will do this thing and perhaps never even mention the words calling and election and yet, because we all agree that D & C 84 is clearly referencing such in terms understood by God, it is the same. In fact there have been times in my life when no words are warranted or suitable to ask what I seek of the Lord and I simply know that he hears every unvoiced pain that resides in my heart and what I feel so deeply inside. These things are really what the Lord hears most. What's tragic is that these often have no clue as to the multitude of synonyms that exist in scripture which mean "calling and election" used hundreds more times than the phrase as referenced by Paul.

However, the valiant, when they get to a point where they have done sufficient but lack in one bit of understanding or another God will make known unto them what they need to know, the knowledge they need to possess, so that they may enter into his rest when the time is correct. So you are correct we cannot be saved in ignorance but it is one of the obsessive tell tale signs when you run into those who think that if you do not understand the details and the process and if you don't straight up ask the Lord for it now...now...I mean now!...that you are somehow never going to get it figured out.

Now I made a couple of references to short cuts and such and you wisely expressed that you do not agree with such. I am making reference however, to one of the most famous threads on this forum. Most people recognize my use of various terms and realize I am picking on that message. It is a post authored by Amonhi. If you are interested it can be found here:

viewtopic.php?t=22462

There are people on this forum who claim to have had their calling and election made sure because of that post. Many have left the forum who make the same claim. And it is not that I think they cannot grasp the essence of what I have written here but their focus on exalting themselves or being exalted in a demand and receive sort of fashion is indicative of their misunderstanding. Many make such claims though they have been excommunicated, or are divorced and are not sealed to a spouse or are somewhere in between manifest by their unrelenting accusations and condemnations of the Brethren. Yet it is questionable based on the scripturally defined criteria of how we enter into his rest that eternal life and exaltation are probable attainments for such. These people may know the definitions but they have yet to do what is required. For the valiant it is just a state of being to comply with all of the commands of the Lord or to be striving for such.

What's really funny is that if Amonhi could participate in threads outside of "OUTER DARKNESS" he would be choking on his spit at my first post. Perhaps my point is more readily understood with this explanation. If not let me know and I will try again.

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brlenox
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by brlenox »

Finrock wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:54 pm What is this "shortcut" to receiving your calling and election that everyone keeps referencing or mentioning? How does that even work?

Honestly, I think there is a lot of confusion what it means to receive your calling and election and this is a direct result of this doctrine no longer being taught unequivocally or in a straightforward, unambiguous way. Because this doctrine has been relegated to the "not really important right now" or "don't worry about it" bin, there is much confusion as to what it is, what it means, and how one obtains it. There is a lot of Mormon "myth" associated to this doctrine.

Anyways, I'm digressing from my question. What is this "shortcut" to your C&E that keeps being referenced?

-Finrock

I would be surprised if you have not read this post which is in answer to your question but this is the short cut I reference:

viewtopic.php?t=22462

As well, if you have a chance, read my last post and you may note that the doctrine is taught clearly and unequivocally and you will find no better straightforward unambiguous means than is scripturally available.

brianj
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by brianj »

brlenox wrote: May 31st, 2017, 4:09 pm viewtopic.php?t=22462

There are people on this forum who claim to have had their calling and election made sure because of that post. Many have left the forum who make the same claim. And it is not that I think they cannot grasp the essence of what I have written here but their focus on exalting themselves or being exalted in a demand and receive sort of fashion is indicative of their misunderstanding. Many make such claims though they have been excommunicated, or are divorced and are not sealed to a spouse or are somewhere in between manifest by their unrelenting accusations and condemnations of the Brethren. Yet it is questionable based on the scripturally defined criteria of how we enter into his rest that eternal life and exaltation are probable attainments for such. These people may know the definitions but they have yet to do what is required. For the valiant it is just a state of being to comply with all of the commands of the Lord or to be striving for such.
I just can't let this go.
My wife filed for divorce and, even though she's now committing adultery, has expressed her intention to have our sealing canceled as soon as she can. If I don't find someone else I can be sealed to, will I be denied exaltation? If you answer, please keep in mind that I did not break my covenants.
What about two sister missionaries I very deeply respected, who never found a husband? One is regularly getting grief from her family about getting serious and settling down like her sister (who doesn't attend church and has multiple divorces).

Many years ago I went to a Jimmy Buffett concert in the Seattle area, where he performed The Wind Cries Mary as a tribute to local boy Jimi Hendrix. One day, about 2.5 years ago, I went to a family history library and was playing the live album from that concert, hitting that song as I approached the library. The song was going through my mind as I went inside. Though I was pursuing something entirely different, I was guided to a relative who died before her 10th birthday. It was as if the wind cried Marie. I had all the ordinances done for her that she is eligible to receive, which doesn't include sealing to a spouse. I can't accept that she would be denied exaltation for the sin of not being married at or before age 9.

No, I don't believe someone who has been excommunicated can qualify for exaltation unless they have been rebaptized or are pursuing that goal when they die. But to tell someone whose spouse violated covenants and whose spouse filed for divorce, or who was unmistakably inspired to leave their spouse while in a temple, that they cannot possibly qualify for exaltation unless they get married (even if they don't meet someone whom the Holy Ghost testifies they should be sealed to) goes against much of what I have been taught in church and is hurtful.

You would be shocked to learn how many divorced church members, and those going through divorce, leave the church because they are treated like crap. Women can expect to lose their calling and be given another calling that isolates them when they most need to be surrounded by adult support. They can also expect to lose their home teachers and be reassigned to the oldest high priests in the ward. Men and women can expect to lose all their friends. Some sick, misguided, and wicked people even harbor a belief that they have a duty to shun people enduring divorce as a deserved punishment!
Many of us have endured years of abuse. Abusers can be very charismatic and manipulative. I have heard from women whose husbands had affairs, one of whom I served a mission with. During their divorces those abusive husbands convinced their wards that those women were the problem, even going so far as to claim the wife was the abusive one or the one having the affair, AND THEW WARD MEMBERS BELIEVE IT!
If you are going through divorce and have kids, get ready. Those kids are having their world turned upside down and they can also expect to be shunned. Their friends will stop paying attention to them and start spreading hateful gossip. Primary aged children will lose their friends, be left alone at primary activities, and no longer be invited to participate in activities not sponsored by the primary.


Instead of telling people who have endured divorce or are enduring divorce the lie that they have lost any chance of exaltation unless they find someone else to be sealed to, try less judgement and more love.

butterfly
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by butterfly »

D&C 137 explains that you do not have to be married or even lds
in order to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Joseph Smith's brother Alvin was not married, was not LDS, and vicarious ordinances had not been done for him - and still Joseph sees Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom.
Alvin isn't even in spirit prison being taught the gospel and waiting for his work to be done, which is interesting because I often hear that nonmembers cannot enter the Celestial kingdom until they've had their work done for them.



5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

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brlenox
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by brlenox »

brianj wrote: May 31st, 2017, 8:49 pm
brlenox wrote: May 31st, 2017, 4:09 pm viewtopic.php?t=22462

There are people on this forum who claim to have had their calling and election made sure because of that post. Many have left the forum who make the same claim. And it is not that I think they cannot grasp the essence of what I have written here but their focus on exalting themselves or being exalted in a demand and receive sort of fashion is indicative of their misunderstanding. Many make such claims though they have been excommunicated, or are divorced and are not sealed to a spouse or are somewhere in between manifest by their unrelenting accusations and condemnations of the Brethren. Yet it is questionable based on the scripturally defined criteria of how we enter into his rest that eternal life and exaltation are probable attainments for such. These people may know the definitions but they have yet to do what is required. For the valiant it is just a state of being to comply with all of the commands of the Lord or to be striving for such.
I just can't let this go.
My wife filed for divorce and, even though she's now committing adultery, has expressed her intention to have our sealing canceled as soon as she can. If I don't find someone else I can be sealed to, will I be denied exaltation? If you answer, please keep in mind that I did not break my covenants.
What about two sister missionaries I very deeply respected, who never found a husband? One is regularly getting grief from her family about getting serious and settling down like her sister (who doesn't attend church and has multiple divorces).

Many years ago I went to a Jimmy Buffett concert in the Seattle area, where he performed The Wind Cries Mary as a tribute to local boy Jimi Hendrix. One day, about 2.5 years ago, I went to a family history library and was playing the live album from that concert, hitting that song as I approached the library. The song was going through my mind as I went inside. Though I was pursuing something entirely different, I was guided to a relative who died before her 10th birthday. It was as if the wind cried Marie. I had all the ordinances done for her that she is eligible to receive, which doesn't include sealing to a spouse. I can't accept that she would be denied exaltation for the sin of not being married at or before age 9.

No, I don't believe someone who has been excommunicated can qualify for exaltation unless they have been rebaptized or are pursuing that goal when they die. But to tell someone whose spouse violated covenants and whose spouse filed for divorce, or who was unmistakably inspired to leave their spouse while in a temple, that they cannot possibly qualify for exaltation unless they get married (even if they don't meet someone whom the Holy Ghost testifies they should be sealed to) goes against much of what I have been taught in church and is hurtful.

You would be shocked to learn how many divorced church members, and those going through divorce, leave the church because they are treated like crap. Women can expect to lose their calling and be given another calling that isolates them when they most need to be surrounded by adult support. They can also expect to lose their home teachers and be reassigned to the oldest high priests in the ward. Men and women can expect to lose all their friends. Some sick, misguided, and wicked people even harbor a belief that they have a duty to shun people enduring divorce as a deserved punishment!
Many of us have endured years of abuse. Abusers can be very charismatic and manipulative. I have heard from women whose husbands had affairs, one of whom I served a mission with. During their divorces those abusive husbands convinced their wards that those women were the problem, even going so far as to claim the wife was the abusive one or the one having the affair, AND THEW WARD MEMBERS BELIEVE IT!
If you are going through divorce and have kids, get ready. Those kids are having their world turned upside down and they can also expect to be shunned. Their friends will stop paying attention to them and start spreading hateful gossip. Primary aged children will lose their friends, be left alone at primary activities, and no longer be invited to participate in activities not sponsored by the primary.


Instead of telling people who have endured divorce or are enduring divorce the lie that they have lost any chance of exaltation unless they find someone else to be sealed to, try less judgement and more love.
I think you might be a bit calmer as you seek for further understanding relative to your very specific situation. Are you claiming to have had your calling and election made sure? No. Then the bulk of my comments are not directed to you. In the current scenario as long as you retain the sealing to the first wife, your covenant is with the Lord. Whether she succeeds or not is not a reflection on your efforts if you have been true. The Lord will see to his end of the bargain and you will be given another in her stead.

However, worst case scenario, she asks the Brethren to rescind the first sealing. Now you find yourself without a sealing which is a significant thing. Now as to butterflys insistence that Alvin was found in the Celestial kingdom because of D & C 137 and that means you can as well that's a swell thing. However, she clearly misunderstands several points of clear doctrine that I am not going to take the time to elucidate on this evening. However, the distinction of being a member of the celestial kingdom and the distinction of occupying the very top level where you have a continuation of the seeds forever is a very different thing and let's face it it shouldn't take much to put together that seeds requires male and female to be sealed together as one. The birds and the bees discussion notwithstanding should make this pretty clear. However, these verses from the Book of Mormon should illustrate the necessity of baptism and the ordinances by inference. Just one source of many that speak to this subject:
2 Nephi 31:5-12

5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!

6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.

8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.

9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
However, what is also clear is that you should not suffer if your wife does break both yours and hers covenants. It is not a good way to be but the Lord is every so desirous that all who merit shall receive. This is after all how he increases in glory as well. Those who make it to the highest level are his increase. So patiently and lovingly go about serving the Lord. As you do so allow him to provide another spouse if the time is to be in this life and if not count on the fact that your honest efforts will not go unnoticed and you will not be denied anything that you merit.

I'll look at this again and perhaps put together the sources for the scriptural support for this message. However, in the mean time don't let the anxiety of your very troubling situation find you accusing everyone else of infidelity to the message.

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brlenox
A sheep in wolf in sheep's clothing
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by brlenox »

butterfly wrote: May 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm D&C 137 explains that you do not have to be married or even lds
in order to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Joseph Smith's brother Alvin was not married, was not LDS, and vicarious ordinances had not been done for him - and still Joseph sees Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom.
Alvin isn't even in spirit prison being taught the gospel and waiting for his work to be done, which is interesting because I often hear that nonmembers cannot enter the Celestial kingdom until they've had their work done for them.



5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.
Butterfly the some total of the doctrines of celestialization are not contained in D and C 137. It is incumbent upon us to seek to put all of the verses that weigh in on a matter together to speak to a full understanding. Cherry picking will not do the job. While D & C 137 may not contain all of the requirements of D & C 132 you can bet that they are very much required in the understandings of the fullness of the highest degrees of celestial glory.

I do appreciate that you tried to source your opinion by reference to D & C 137, however, when the claims you make are not sustained from other clearer sources that speak with greater specificity then it is difficult to give your observations the credence I wish I could.

Just a few for review:
D & C 132:15-17

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
If Alvin is to have a place in the Eternal realms of exaltation he will of necessity require a wife and the ordinances. The manner in which one can receive blessing in spite of the fact that various things are yet to be fully in place is covered in the principle that is discussed in Mosiah 3:13. Jarom 1:11 and Mosiah 16:6. The clearest of which is Mosiah 3:13 - look for "even as though" to illuminate the distinctions.

I must be off for tonight.

BackBlast
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by BackBlast »

brlenox wrote: May 31st, 2017, 4:09 pm Usually, I can predict upon what points, of one of my posts, I am going to get push back and often by whom. This time however, while I easily could guess on what points I am a bit surprised that it is you. However, acknowledging that you don't have as much history here as some of us I am guessing that you missed some of my references, not knowing of what I reference...but that's okay. I think I only need to address one of these questions to at least give you perspective upon my perspective.

Of course this is a direct reference to calling and election. It sounds really nice and such but how would we identify the process of the Lord pouring out more and more light so that we might not fret so much about thinking that "I better ask...oh my gosh, If I don't know the questions I may miss all of the blessings even though I gave all that I had to the building up of the kingdom...Oh no the brethren didn't tell me that, it's their fault - how was I supposed to know to ask for my calling and election...I've lost everything ... aaaaggghhhh!" And I guess that is a reasonable response if you believe it is the brethren who have to keep the promise to make your calling and election sure. However, while they have a major role in the process it is not exactly their promise to keep....
I think I see where you're going, that somehow this formula by Amonhi is the One True Way. I don't think it was intended that way.

I wish to provide you a different perspective. You didn't seem to quite get my point. A room full of latter day saints in sunday school. The topic comes up. Universally it is derided, beyond the mark, essentially "no one receives that in this life" is the general mantra. Just as described above. This is a widely held mentality in the church. I'm not blaming anyone, this is simply a false tradition we hold. This creates some severe unbelief about what is and what is not available to us.

Lets say one of the saints in that room has persevered and has been deemed worthy of the blessing by the Lord, but in his heart he doesn't believe that he is worthy of it. That it is unobtanium. Can he still be granted the blessing even though he refuses and counts himself as unworthy? I suggest that his agency remains, he can refuse the offer! All without ever knowing it's right there and even though Lord tries to point him to it. Such a man does hearken generally, offering his best, but many of his traditions remain and are still louder in his heart and mind. This man is on the cusp of being so elevated but this somewhat minor but stubborn stumbling block remains.

In my view, it's less asking for it specifically, but being willing to accept the Lord's judgements of you. Right now. If questions help you accept His judgements, so be it. They may actually be well positioned to clear away the above issue. We are incredibly excessively hard on ourselves as a people. This is, IMHO, a very common stumbling block. We build up these experiences in the scriptures as grand and marvelous "exceptions" instead of the instructive examples they are intended to be. We think of them as impossibly hard. Our pre-conceptions actually get in our way and we form our own barriers with our unbelief. We do this instead of letting go of our conceptions and let the Lord take the reigns from time to time and guide us in our requests and prayers. "Tell me what I should ask for!" is probably one of the more powerful ways to begin a prayer you intend to make for your own welfare.
There are people on this forum who claim to have had their calling and election made sure because of that post. Many have left the forum who make the same claim. And it is not that I think they cannot grasp the essence of what I have written here but their focus on exalting themselves or being exalted in a demand and receive sort of fashion is indicative of their misunderstanding. Many make such claims though they have been excommunicated, or are divorced and are not sealed to a spouse or are somewhere in between manifest by their unrelenting accusations and condemnations of the Brethren. Yet it is questionable based on the scripturally defined criteria of how we enter into his rest that eternal life and exaltation are probable attainments for such. These people may know the definitions but they have yet to do what is required. For the valiant it is just a state of being to comply with all of the commands of the Lord or to be striving for such.

What's really funny is that if Amonhi could participate in threads outside of "OUTER DARKNESS" he would be choking on his spit at my first post. Perhaps my point is more readily understood with this explanation. If not let me know and I will try again.
I believe I understand you. I cannot speak for the apostates because I know not their hearts, nor have I walked their paths. I believe it is wrong to stand up publicly and critically condemn the church her faults real or imagined. True doctrine can be taught without this. But it is also wrong to let such apostates dilute true doctrine and valid paths for real blessings, such declarations aren't wrong simply because they were uttered by an open and public critic of the church.

You believe that there are some extensive requirements for it to occur. I agree that there are some. But I don't think they are as restrictive as you indicate. Marriage is required to actually inherit exaltation. But is it a requirement for the promise? I don't think so. A soul can be proven without it, can it not? A soul that has received the promise is not then exalted, nor necessarily perfect. I think it would be worth while to examine that distinction. To my knowledge, the only real requirement for the promise is that you enter at the gate and walk the path uprightly [2-Ne 31...]. There is no mention of marriage in that plainly written synopsis.

BackBlast
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by BackBlast »

h_p wrote: May 31st, 2017, 3:25 pm
BackBlast wrote: May 31st, 2017, 2:58 pm Why not just actually give you heart to the Lord and reap all the boons and blessings that can be yours along the way? Yes, it's initially harder to make that step, but having the Holy Ghost with you is like having a super power! Progression is easier and faster and full of light. You end up just wanting to make all those sacrifices and there is a generally upbeat feeling to it all even when it's hard or sorrowful.
Totally agree. But a close friend of mine has confided in me that to take that first step of giving yourself completely over to the Lord is pretty terrifying. He has some fears about what will happen to him if he does so--like what will God require him to give up, will he have to sacrifice his children, etc. (Not literally sacrifice them, of course.) That's certainly a common fear, I think. It's probably what's holding most of us back. I know I'm still trying to be completely honest with myself over what I'm actually willing to sacrifice. As I took that step myself, I admit I did have some fear about what was coming, and I can say that though it's been incredibly rewarding, this period of my life has also been the most painful I've ever experienced.
My experience is that you will like what the Lord generally has in mind for you, at least in the long run. You agreed to this path once already and men are that they might have joy. The refining process can be a bit on the painful side. :D The recompense is comfort, peace, and eventually promises.

diligently seeking
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by diligently seeking »

Alright it is time for me to stand and be accounted for--not that I necessarily want to. However, I feel impressed to do this. No more pontificating, sermonizing, and lamenting etc on my part. Looks like I'm circling back sooner than I thought. I know beyond theory. I know beyond sincere study on the subject that receiving ones calling and election happens even to lowly folk . You see, simple old tainted-- Jesus loving and yearning to know him, me--- had the heavens open and found myself enveloped by a degree of the Lord's presence(which was most profound for me) and was given the reassurance of eternal life etc. Combine these scriptures (mosiah 4:20; 3 nephi 11: 3-5; Helaman 44, 45) and this was so very similar to how my experience felt / happenned... I got to say when this occurred almost 3 years ago, I was humbled etc by the very clear knowledge by how freely it was given to me. I was shocked and yet not surprised (knowing enough about God's love) that I did not have to be walking on water before this beautiful experience occurred. I remember pure intelligence filling my mind by how available / accesible this gift is... In fact I felt to chasten myself realizing that I could have received this years and years earlier... I got to say that maybe this feeling this impression at the time was made so clear on my heart and mind so that I could express it in this very moment now-- here on this forum-- and by doing so offer hope and confidence to others. :) It was said by someone yesterday I believe on the forum that when you hunger and thirst after righteousness Christ will find you. On my Mission in the mid 90's the Lord came to me via a mighty change of heart / born of God / becoming a spiritual off spring of Jesus (see mosiah 5) because with great genuine sincerity I hungered and thirsted after righteousness in that setting.

I've shared this multiple times on this forum but here was that experience on my mission. I share for the purpose of this being instructive. After being born of God / transcending membership status and becoming an actual Saint through the atonement of Jesus-- when this occurs we move forward with greater confidence to fulfill King Benjamin's council in the last verse in his sermon to move forward being steadfast and immovable until the next step of being sealed up / receiving ones calling election occurs.
Mosiah 5:
15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen. (I will with the hope of offering hope-- explain more of my journey in the next little while)


My parents divorced when I was 10-- resulting with my Father choosing to be absent from our lives. Regrettably, I chose to use my agency poorly in my teen years. Tragically, mom was diagnosed with a terminal cancer when I was 14. She was told that with chemotherapy and radiation she could possibly live 8 months. She explained to the doctor that she had faith she would live long enough to see her last children off. Very shortly after this, she was given a priesthood blessing that told her as much. Miraculously, her bone cancer multiple myeloma, went into remission. My sweet angel mother was about as perfect as mom (Child of God) could be. She was a fervent/faithfull follower of Jesus in word and deed. There was no duplicity in her; truly, this elect woman was without guile and was wonderfully filled with and emanated the pure love of Christ. Miracles too, were ubiquitous/everywhere for this saintly woman.

So many over cast times in my life I would be healed mentally, emotionally, and lifted spiritually just being in her righteous presence. I will never forget a time in my life when I was 16 watching "Geraldo" (a tv talk show) downstairs in my room. The theme of the show that day was: people who were abducted by aliens and returned. Sounds so comical now, but, at that time of my life-- it created a faith crisis. Geraldo's guests were most convincing. As the show progressed, I became increasingly convinced these folks --had-- been abducted. Panic filled my heart. The thoughts that raced through my mind were "how could the church be true-- why would God allow these things to take place--Alien abductions were not supposed to be apart of the Plan of Salvation"!?

I knew I had to speak to the resident- spiritual authority in my home. Hollering to see if my mom was upstairs-- She replied that she was. I wanted at some point in my life to embrace the faith that my mother so beautifully reflected. I knew that my lifestyle was practically void of the happiness and serenity she had in abundance. I was feeling very forlorn/sad as I walked up those stairs. I most assuredly hoped, but was not so convinced, that my mother could help me. When she saw me, she asked sweetly what she could do for me. I observed that she was sitting in her favorite dimpled leather chair reading her oh-so-loved-scriptures. Upon being in my mother's presence I was immediately filled with incredible peace and joy. All feelings of emotional pain, anxiety, and confusion were completely taken from me. So thorough was this cleansing-- that I didn't even ask my mother a single question. Astonished by this beautiful and immediate result-- I simply told her "oh nothing" turned around and went back downstairs.

Though I had this profound experience, numbskull me, Still chose to live a life That was unbecoming of a Latter day Saint. The 19th year in my life was approaching fast. I was settling in on the idea that a mission was going to be a part of my future. This was a strong wish and desire of my mothers. My mission call came. The day came for me to leave to the MTC. My angel mother passed that morning. My twin sister had already left the home. Departing to the MTC that morning, I was the last of her 9 children to leave. The power of this righteous woman's faith, and the power / efficacy of the priesthood blessing she received-- resulted in her righteous desire and wish being fulfilled --to the day--

At first, the Lord's mission I was called to serve to was a difficult struggle. President Ezra T Benson talked about having a vision seeing an army of missionaries that could "match the message," this--I was not. Growing spiritually during my formative/ early years was largely wasted. The lead surgeon in the county that we labored in -- my first area-- Invited us over to teach a friend. Introducing my companion and I-- he explained in glowing details what a great missionary my trainer was. He explained with an unenthused tone that "Elder Beesley meant well as a missionary but was not quite up to speed."

I was devastated. No doubt he was right. As we entered our apartment that night, I asked to be alone in the bedroom. Pouring my heart and soul out to Father in Heaven-- I cried and cried asking forgiveness for not being prepared and pleading for help.That first area I nearly read the Book of Mormon 3 times. A miracle occurred. Nothing short of the Red Sea parting. Not only did the gospel make crystal clear sense, but my intellect (by my standards) soared! I went from an unorganized somewhat unkempt fella-- all the sudden I felt to be organized and precise in my actions. So much fog lifted-- my mind was expanded and made much more clear. My previous swollen twisted tongue shrunk to size and was "loosed" I truly was going through a glorious- spiritual rebirth. The last fast and testimony meeting before I was transferred to a new area this lead-surgeon member stood to bear his testimony. He stated that amongst other things helping him to know that the church is true-- he testified that another feather in his cap of testimony was seeing a miracle with the transformation of Elder Beesley. He rightly knew that I was a lowly way behind the curve missionary when I first entered the mission field. He also knew that nothing short Of God's tender mercy and miraculous help could have done for me what had occurred and was occurring.

I know unquestionably, nothing unlocked this door for me so profoundly as did the study of the Book of Mormon. Father in Heaven and my Savior Jesus Christ became so wonderfully real and close to me. I can honestly say that I read a total of 6 books in 19 years of living. The majority of those in the fourth grade. I gave little to no energy in my studies from junior high to high school. Suddenly, to study the Book of Mormon, a book littered with thee thou and thines etc --for it! to come alive! Wonder of wonders...

Studying the gospel, particuarly reading the Book of Mormon, I became infused/ filled with the Spirit of God. I truly became a "New Creature in Christ" (2Corinthians 5:17) born of god, having received a mighty change of heart! I do not know how many times I read The Book of Mormon on the Lord's mission. I do know that it was approaching somewhere around 15 times. I read certain books with in the Book of Mormon a hundred times and more. I love the book of Alma. :) Joy and anticipation came arising in the morning to read the Book of Mormon. I could not wait to come home for lunch to read the Book of Mormon. I truly hungered and thirsted for the glorious affects that came into my life reading the great "Stick of Joseph" (Ezekiel37:19)

When you are near SPIRITUALY--blind, lame, deaf, and dumb and you discover sooner than later your relationship with deity/God and Jesus becoming so real and sacred for you--and you are suddenly given beautiful gifts and your known talents heightened--beautiful spiritual vistas are opened up to you--the voice of the Lord (via the Holy Ghost that blessed "Comforter" (John 14:26,27) is heard and obeyed--when great clarity of thought and speech increase and all of this from these fruits given through sincere study and application and prayer from reading a book! Incredible! What amazing love and appreciation fills your whole being...I always knew my mother "knew it" she truly was a mother "who knew" (Alma 56:47,48) I testify that to become a person "who knows" the expedited path is the path that leads you to the unending feast, even the great spiritual banquet --which is-- the BOOK of MORMON--book of all BOOKS!

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AI2.0
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by AI2.0 »

BackBlast wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:59 pm
brlenox wrote: May 31st, 2017, 1:13 pm There are other groups as well. In the preexistence we had one group who focused more on personal exaltation. They wanted to establish their kingdom and receive honor unto themselves through some other means than was that defined by our Father in Heaven. Their leader was vociferous in his declarations that he knew the means - the quickest way if you will - to make their calling and election sure for none would be lost.
This makes no sense. Calling and election are given by God, they are not some "other means". You are referring to a short cut and then calling the actual path the short cut. You are probably referring to a counterfeit :).
Sometimes, I have learned over the years that the most valiant actually know very little about the technical terminologies that accompany the concepts of calling and election.
No man can be saved in ignorance. As some point this stuff needs to be understood. Though I tend to agree that the path of progression is built to advance those who's hearts are there over their minds.
However, I would never make the mistake of thinking that simply because a few words of definition had escaped someone's periphery that they were lost for not knowing what the terms "calling and election" mean. For far better is it, in my estimation of things, to be caught DOING the process of making ones calling and election sure, using the tried and generally long method of personal sacrifice in behalf of others while building with an eye single the kingdom of God, than it is to be reading all about the terminologies and looking for shortcuts in the achievement thereof.
I don't think there are any shortcuts.

However, there are people who merit blessings that they do not receive because they are unwilling to receive them. This is the group that benefits most from knowledge. It is that knowledge that can remove their stumbling block - then they can open up and ask for and receive the blessings that they have already qualified for but have refused to date. I think our culture tends to end up with quite a few people in this category because we make the requirements appear so impossibly hard that we do not really believe that we can obtain them. Thus we blind ourselves and refuse blessings freely offered unto us.

Agency is honored, even unto the refusal of blessings and boons we merit.
I agree with Brelnox's statement "...the most valiant actually know very little about the technical terminologies that accompany the concepts of calling and election'

I think the experience of the Brother of Jared seeing the finger of the Lord prove Brelnox's point. Moriancumr was not expecting or seeking it (he was even ignorant in that he didn't know God had a body), and yet the experience came. He didn't need to understand that this was something he was supposed to be working toward or praying for, it didn't matter if he church leaders didn't talk about it, the experience still came to him.

You are right, there aren't any shortcuts and most of us agree on this. The problem is that some members on this forum are under the mistaken notion that there IS a shortcut and they are misleading others to believe this also. Look at the thread Brelnox shared.

diligently seeking
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by diligently seeking »

A12, to think how much more ahead of the curve the Brother of Jared would have been had he been fortunate enough along with you and and Brlenox--- to have the Book of Mormon to reference / prepare himself? Imagine along with the most correct book of scripture on the earth that brings one closer to Jesus than any other book-- he had instruction from Joseph Smith and Marion G Romney and the like... (I got a hunch though-- that there is more to him than we know)


"My brethren, I pray, and ask you to join in that prayer, that while I speak we will enjoy the Spirit of Christ. If we don’t enjoy it, we won’t enjoy these remarks, because my topic is “The Light of Christ.” There are three phases of the light of Christ that I want to mention.

The first one is the light which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world;

The second phase is the gift of the Holy Ghost;

And the third is the more sure word of prophecy..." "...Now, concerning the third phase of our theme, “the more sure word of prophecy” (D&C 131:5), which is obtained by making one’s “calling and election sure” (2 Pet. 1:10), the Prophet Joseph said:

“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands) … then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 150.)

In the eighty-eighth section of the Doctrine and Covenants is recorded a revelation in which the Lord, addressing some of the early Saints in Ohio, said:

“I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.

“This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom.” (D&C 88:3–4.)

I should think that all faithful Latter-day Saints “would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God.” (History of the Church of JesusChrist of Latter-day Saints, 5:388.)..."

Marion G Romney "The light of Christ" 1977 / 4 decades ago...

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BTH&T
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Posts: 906

Re: Heart hurt...

Post by BTH&T »

This topic and the "polarizing question" one seem to be discussing the same issue.

Over the time I've been a part of LDSFF these threads on this subject have been ones that I give me a sense of uneasiness.

I seem to agree with AI2.0 in the thought of "process" or "reward".

The thoughts that come to my mind when thinking on this is that we should be "losing ourselves in the service of others" and not becoming "prideful in self awareness".

It seems to me that those professing to be striving for Calling & Election or the Second Comforter are striving for a badge of honor rather than living the True and Living Gospel. I sense pride, arrogance and self promotion.
Those that truly are born of the spirit and are true disciples do not try to shine a light on themselves, but rather the Light of the Gospel shines through them.

My personal experiences are very sacred and I find that we must be careful to keep them more to ourselves. This is where I believe that "by their fruits ye shall know them" comes to play.

The very spiritual experiences one has are sacred and not like some achievement to be sought after.
If we are living our lives as the Savoir has asked by being humble, meek, long-suffering, full of charity and faith, repenting and making the atonement part of our individual lives we will receive ALL the blessings that are promised.

IMO there is not a check list to be accomplished and a certain amount of spiritual knowledge and prowess to be obtained. Each of us are unique and will be judged be our hearts and efforts, line upon line.

I do believe that those that seek after spiritual gifts "for themselves" are missing the mark.
Only by losing ourselves through serving others will we find the reward.
It isn't some special to-do list that we must each accomplish.

These thoughts are not directed to any person or group, but rather meant in a general context.

diligently seeking
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1272

Re: Heart hurt...

Post by diligently seeking »

BTH&T wrote: June 1st, 2017, 10:57 am This topic and the "polarizing question" one seem to be discussing the same issue.

Over the time I've been a part of LDSFF these threads on this subject have been ones that I give me a sense of uneasiness.

I seem to agree with AI2.0 in the thought of "process" or "reward".

The thoughts that come to my mind when thinking on this is that we should be "losing ourselves in the service of others" and not becoming "prideful in self awareness".

It seems to me that those professing to be striving for Calling & Election or the Second Comforter are striving for a badge of honor rather than living the True and Living Gospel. I sense pride, arrogance and self promotion.
Those that truly are born of the spirit and are true disciples do not try to shine a light on themselves, but rather the Light of the Gospel shines through them.

My personal experiences are very sacred and I find that we must be careful to keep them more to ourselves. This is where I believe that "by their fruits ye shall know them" comes to play.

The very spiritual experiences one has are sacred and not like some achievement to be sought after.
If we are living our lives as the Savoir has asked by being humble, meek, long-suffering, full of charity and faith, repenting and making the atonement part of our individual lives we will receive ALL the blessings that are promised.

IMO there is not a check list to be accomplished and a certain amount of spiritual knowledge and prowess to be obtained. Each of us are unique and will be judged be our hearts and efforts, line upon line.

I do believe that those that seek after spiritual gifts "for themselves" are missing the mark.
Only by losing ourselves through serving others will we find the reward.
It isn't some special to-do list that we must each accomplish.

These thoughts are not directed to any person or group, but rather meant in a general context.

Thanks for your opinion :) I personally do not want to argue. Today and tommorow I will share a few more thoughts and experiences and move on for a bit.
Edit:
BTH&T, be rest assured that work and work and service and involvement and more involvement-- the marching orders of the church today is not with out merit! It is scriptural... I can assure you though-- or would encourage you to more optimistically believe that if one is "receiving" they are not unfamiler with what Joseph Smith said:
A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race.
Joseph Smith Jr.
Last edited by diligently seeking on June 1st, 2017, 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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BTH&T
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Re: Heart hurt...

Post by BTH&T »

JaredBees wrote: June 1st, 2017, 11:06 am Thanks for your opinion :) I personally do not want to argue. Today and tommorow I will share a few more thoughts and experiences and move on for a bit.
Not looking to argue and I was in no way pointing to you or your OP.
These feelings on this subject have been brewing for awhile and it was your OP that I finally expressed my thoughts.

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True
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Posts: 974

Re: Heart hurt...

Post by True »

Thank you JaredBees for sharing that sacred experience. I almost just don't know what to say to it. Amen.
I had a similar but very different experience. The Lord prepared me first, like you by humbling me further than I have ever been humbled before. At this point I started reading the Book of Mormon one hour a day. This made me absolutely hungry for more. I was searching for God, thinking on God praying to God and following God and was rewarded by being absolutely filled. Then one day it happened. I was not studying C&E, was not on this forum, had not read any books about it. I knew what it was though.

In my excitement, I thought I should share it with my husband. The spirit cautioned me against that but I felt almost like it was a duty and I did it. He did not believe me. It was pretty devastating. I then shared it with my sisters. They both had a mighty change of heart. The one who had the biggest change of heart started following the spirit and had a few very amazing experiences and then stopped because the Lord asked her to do things that were way out of her comfort zone and she couldn't handle it anymore. She is now at the very edge of falling out of the church. I am pretty sure that she was not ready for it. She did not have the foundation and because of my introducing her to the meat, she has fallen to a greater depth than she has ever been before. The other sister that I shared it with is so discouraged that her faith has not produced many results that she has decided that she is incapable of even feeling or hearing the spirit.

I do have one sister-in-law that was moved by John Pontius' books but did not catch fire until her marriage almost fell apart in a very dramatic manner. This event led her to guess what? read the Book of Mormon and follow the spirit. She is now my main stay and we can discuss sacred truths and our trying and failing and our hope and trust in Christ.

I was in my institute class a couple of weeks ago and we were discussing C&E. The teacher started off very bold, discussing Joseph's statements about every member pursuing this. Then a lady raised her hand. She was about to hyperventilate. She said she didn't want to have to do this and was she required to do this? Seeing her distress, the teacher said, "you know I think that sometimes the reason people get their C&E is because they need to have that assurance for a special mission". He went from what is stated in the scriptures and prophets to "it's for special people".

I guess the theme of this post is that I am heart broken, along with you that people do not want to know this doctrine or that they are not ready for it. Just look at the post right after the one you posted of your experience. My heart fell. You finally tell your story, pour it all there and.... You are my all time favorite poster and to see you discouraged puts my stomach in knots. I think that Satan would like to sift you as wheat. What I really want to say is please, please, please suffer with the unbelief of those around you. Be the salt and the leaven!!! Stay the course young soldier! There is loneliness and persecution ahead but that is all for the good, that you may be acquainted with the Lord.

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Heart hurt...

Post by Finrock »

True wrote: June 1st, 2017, 11:56 am Thank you JaredBees for sharing that sacred experience. I almost just don't know what to say to it. Amen.
I had a similar but very different experience. The Lord prepared me first, like you by humbling me further than I have ever been humbled before. At this point I started reading the Book of Mormon one hour a day. This made me absolutely hungry for more. I was searching for God, thinking on God praying to God and following God and was rewarded by being absolutely filled. Then one day it happened. I was not studying C&E, was not on this forum, had not read any books about it. I knew what it was though.

In my excitement, I thought I should share it with my husband. The spirit cautioned me against that but I felt almost like it was a duty and I did it. He did not believe me. It was pretty devastating. I then shared it with my sisters. They both had a mighty change of heart. The one who had the biggest change of heart started following the spirit and had a few very amazing experiences and then stopped because the Lord asked her to do things that were way out of her comfort zone and she couldn't handle it anymore. She is now at the very edge of falling out of the church. I am pretty sure that she was not ready for it. She did not have the foundation and because of my introducing her to the meat, she has fallen to a greater depth than she has ever been before. The other sister that I shared it with is so discouraged that her faith has not produced many results that she has decided that she is incapable of even feeling or hearing the spirit.

I do have one sister-in-law that was moved by John Pontius' books but did not catch fire until her marriage almost fell apart in a very dramatic manner. This event led her to guess what? read the Book of Mormon and follow the spirit. She is now my main stay and we can discuss sacred truths and our trying and failing and our hope and trust in Christ.

I was in my institute class a couple of weeks ago and we were discussing C&E. The teacher started off very bold, discussing Joseph's statements about every member pursuing this. Then a lady raised her hand. She was about to hyperventilate. She said she didn't want to have to do this and was she required to do this? Seeing her distress, the teacher said, "you know I think that sometimes the reason people get their C&E is because they need to have that assurance for a special mission". He went from what is stated in the scriptures and prophets to "it's for special people".

I guess the theme of this post is that I am heart broken, along with you that people do not want to know this doctrine or that they are not ready for it. Just look at the post right after the one you posted of your experience. My heart fell. You finally tell your story, pour it all there and.... You are my all time favorite poster and to see you discouraged puts my stomach in knots. I think that Satan would like to sift you as wheat. What I really want to say is please, please, please suffer with the unbelief of those around you. Be the salt and the leaven!!! Stay the course young soldier! There is loneliness and persecution ahead but that is all for the good, that you may be acquainted with the Lord.
Thanks for sharing your story. Can I just say that God controls the gifts? If anyone receives something from God its because God gave it. We all have our agency and we all can chose to do with the gifts what it is we wish to do. But, God would not have given any gift if the individual was not ready to receive it. He knows best. I guess what I'm saying is that we don't have to worry about that part. God controls these things, not man, so trust that God knows what He is doing when He gives any gift.

Don't blame yourself for introducing others to these ideas.

EDIT: Just wanted to add the caveat that we should, of course, do the things the Spirit asks us to do or not to do, whatever it is. And, if we do the things the Spirit asks us to do and the results aren't what we expected or thought, then we don't doubt and we keep trusting that there is a great picture that is being made where we only get to see a small part and not the whole. When there is a full accounting and we see the whole, we will see how all the small parts and the portions that seemed so out of place were really a part of something good and grand that God was building or is building.

-Finrock
Last edited by Finrock on June 1st, 2017, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EdGoble
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Posts: 1077

Re: Heart hurt...

Post by EdGoble »

JaredBees wrote: May 28th, 2017, 11:12 pm My sweet 3 months away from being 4 year old girl --I had to help her read the scripture in primary today. In asking what scripture she was assigned-- they said you pick the one you want". So I picked something sweet and simple yet beautiful and profound... "where your heart is there your treasure will be also" I promptly made my way to Sunday school after this satisfying little experience to learn that the lesson was on D&C 76 .As we got to the point where they were talking about Celestial Kingdom requirements--- a very faithful ward member, probably in her mid-sixties, made the statement that when she was a young adult there was consistent emphasis placed / taught in the church about receiving your calling and election and laying hold upon the deeper things in the Kingdom. This sister expressed her gratitude on what has been taught for the last little while in church (the past 4 decades) about Just having to endure to the end. Comments were flying around in agreeance about how we should not look beyond the mark etc. It was such a struggle and challenge for me to hear all this. More than anything it was very sad for me to realize that this is and has been where we are at in the church for some time... the more I read and truly understand the scriptures the more sad I am by the narrative in church that suggest a different type of hungering and thirsting and obtaining then what holy writ and the Prophet Joseph Smith etc admonised... There is so much treasure to lay hold upon . Is it safe to say hearts have and are waxing cold in our desire and understanding in the necessity of obtaining these **salvational truths**? These "said" most important truths have been and are tragically minimized in Church.
There is nothing minimalized in the Church about enduring to the end. You will never get calling and election unless the Lord knows you are willing and intend and currently engaged in enduring to the end with or without it, and that you would continue to endure with it, and not think that you were just given a "free pass." That's what it means when it says you are willing to serve him "at all hazards," up to and including the prospect of not getting calling and election in life. That you are willing to do what it takes with or without calling and election, and that calling and election would just be some nice added bonus to the fact that you will endure well to the end anyway, and that your course will never change even if you never get it. And so, there is nothing tragically minimized about the necessity for enduring to the end with or without calling and election. Seeking for calling and election with the idea that you are then exempt or blessed in some way different from what you would be called to pass through otherwise is actually where you are going beyond the mark. That is what is tragic. The Lord only gives it to those who he knows will endure anyway, which is why Mormon remnant types don't actually get it, who leave the Church. That is the express definition of not enduring to the end: to go astray.

The doctrine of Calling and Election as it is popularly taught among the Mormon Remnant is actually a doctrine that has distracted many from their duty and provided for them an excuse to go astray.

diligently seeking
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1272

Re: Heart hurt...

Post by diligently seeking »

True wrote: June 1st, 2017, 11:56 am Thank you JaredBees for sharing that sacred experience. I almost just don't know what to say to it. Amen.
I had a similar but very different experience. The Lord prepared me first, like you by humbling me further than I have ever been humbled before. At this point I started reading the Book of Mormon one hour a day. This made me absolutely hungry for more. I was searching for God, thinking on God praying to God and following God and was rewarded by being absolutely filled. Then one day it happened. I was not studying C&E, was not on this forum, had not read any books about it. I knew what it was though.

In my excitement, I thought I should share it with my husband. The spirit cautioned me against that but I felt almost like it was a duty and I did it. He did not believe me. It was pretty devastating. I then shared it with my sisters. They both had a mighty change of heart. The one who had the biggest change of heart started following the spirit and had a few very amazing experiences and then stopped because the Lord asked her to do things that were way out of her comfort zone and she couldn't handle it anymore. She is now at the very edge of falling out of the church. I am pretty sure that she was not ready for it. She did not have the foundation and because of my introducing her to the meat, she has fallen to a greater depth than she has ever been before. The other sister that I shared it with is so discouraged that her faith has not produced many results that she has decided that she is incapable of even feeling or hearing the spirit.

I do have one sister-in-law that was moved by John Pontius' books but did not catch fire until her marriage almost fell apart in a very dramatic manner. This event led her to guess what? read the Book of Mormon and follow the spirit. She is now my main stay and we can discuss sacred truths and our trying and failing and our hope and trust in Christ.

I was in my institute class a couple of weeks ago and we were discussing C&E. The teacher started off very bold, discussing Joseph's statements about every member pursuing this. Then a lady raised her hand. She was about to hyperventilate. She said she didn't want to have to do this and was she required to do this? Seeing her distress, the teacher said, "you know I think that sometimes the reason people get their C&E is because they need to have that assurance for a special mission". He went from what is stated in the scriptures and prophets to "it's for special people".

I guess the theme of this post is that I am heart broken, along with you that people do not want to know this doctrine or that they are not ready for it. Just look at the post right after the one you posted of your experience. My heart fell. You finally tell your story, pour it all there and.... You are my all time favorite poster and to see you discouraged puts my stomach in knots. I think that Satan would like to sift you as wheat. What I really want to say is please, please, please suffer with the unbelief of those around you. Be the salt and the leaven!!! Stay the course young soldier! There is loneliness and persecution ahead but that is all for the good, that you may be acquainted with the Lord.

True, you are so kind. Thank you. And thank you for the encouragement... You give me a glimpse of what a Zion neighbor looks like. :)

I had an Institute teacher years ago teach the truth of D&C 93:1. At the end of the class he bore witness of the fullfilment of 93:1 occurring for him. It was profoundly special. Let me side track for a second. Probably a decade ago in a work break room I struck up a conversation with a fellow worker who had some physical limitations he suffered in a bus accident in south america where he through this horrific accident--had a near death experience. True, I could not help myself-- I asked him with a reverent voice if he had seen Christ. He told me yes and that he met Father too. When he told me this his eyes were no joke, stunning diamond white bright. The kind of bright where it is incredible to look at and wonder about but also a little overwhelming too. Well a few years later I had the opportunity-- this would have been maybe a couple years after the Institute teacher shared his witness in class -- I had the opportunity to sit in on another one of his classes. After class I went and asked him a question. As he spoke to me, amazingly for the second time in my life I was looking at eyes that were intensely bright! When I was in his class a few years back when he shared and encouraged us to believe and receive D&C 93: 1 --I Was a glow with wanting to share this amazing testimony and encouragement with people close to me. The first person I shared this experience with was an older brother. He quickly rebuffed me and said "what makes you think people want to receive that" I simply want to be a good scout leader. I love my brother he is a great member this was his sincere and even agitated opinion. I learned real quick from other less enthused reactions to sadly very seldom share this experience again. Much more i can share...( I just read what Finrock wrote that is solid council) I got to go pick up my junior high girl from her last day of 8th grade. "Schooool's out-- for--- summer"
Last edited by diligently seeking on June 1st, 2017, 2:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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