There is nothing wrong with learning from others. However, it is important in spiritual matters. This is exactly how I got into my deception. I was listening to someone who was not sent, although claiming otherwise. If you are not a member of the church, you have no business preaching the gospel. Additionally, if you are missing fundamental parts of your testimony, that should be addressed first! Only elders and members of the church are charged with that calling.Finrock wrote: ↑June 16th, 2017, 2:17 pmApology accepted even though there is no need to apologize to me as far as I'm concerned. You aren't the first person to do this and I've come to expect such things. I can't tell you how many times I've had to pass someone's arbitrary "loyalty" test when in reality it is irrelevant to what I'm saying.
Please consider that testing someone's faith or a person's testimony or who they associate with does not give any merit or take away any merit from their ideas. It should not be a criteria for when we are communicating and sharing ideas. Each idea or thought ought to be examined as it stands on its own. "Who" shares an idea doesn't matter. Either ideas are true or they are false. An idea doesn't derive its truth value from the person speaking it.
Please allow me to get on a soapbox for the moment...
There is a right way and a wrong way to discuss and to consider ideas. I believe in the principles of critical thinking. I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ requires that I elevate my thinking above the common, therefore, I have tried to adopt certain critical thinking principles in my life. Even though me sharing this shouldn't matter to the ideas I share, I point this out because it is important to the overall quality of the types of discourse that takes place here. Please take some time to consider some key ideas to critical thinking which ought to guide how we think from the link provided below. I think if each of us adopted these universal principles of good thinking (which all align with the "Golden Rule") there would be far less contention and a whole lot more of edification, etc. If I may share a personal wish and desire of mine it is that I wish that there would be a place where individuals can discuss ideas, safely, without worrying about being attacked on a personal level, without being mocked, ridiculed, having their faith called in to question, or any of these other personal things. Let me be clear that I don't mean a place where individuals can say what they want and never be challenged, but that when they are challenged there will be no "ad hominem" components to the challenge. I understand why things are the way they are now and I accept it, but I don't like it and I wish things were different. I recognize that so much of how people think and what they believe is governed by their sociocentric and egocentric views and when these paradigms are challenged people feel threatened. But, we don't have to attack a person personally or use language to demean or to dress down people in order to disagree or to make a counter point. We ought to apply the principles of critical thinking in our reasoning and responses. Something else to consider, not as a means to condemn but as a means to identify, you can discern a lot as to where a person is spiritually and emotionally from the way they interact and treat other people, especially how they treat others they disagree with or who they might see as inferior to them.
So, here are ideas that I value highly and by which I try (and I readily admit I often fail at this) to govern my communications on this forum. Again, even though it shouldn't matter, it should give you some insight as to where I am coming from to some degree: http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/v ... traits/528
And, here are some universal intellectual standards that will help us to "reason together": http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/u ... ndards/527
Finally, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me or with any idea. You might find me pointing out personal attacks, defending others from personal attacks and even defending individuals from personal attacks when I don't agree with said individual's ideas. I don't like bullying and I don't like abusive behavior. Also, I readily admit that many of the ideas I share are unorthodox, however, that doesn't automatically make them wrong and it doesn't make me an apostate or an evil person. I don't accept all orthodoxy or all of what constitutes the typical "Mormon Paradigm". Some of my strengths in life are that I'm an open minded individual, I try to have intellectual empathy and humility, among other traits, and so I can consider an idea from the perspective of my "opponent". I am analytical and conscientious by nature. Of course I have weaknesses and flaws, but, the talents I do have I am grateful for and I don't apologize for any good quality or trait which I have, even when it makes me unpopular to some. I don't care about popularity either. I have no agenda and I'm not affiliated with any group, "apostate" or otherwise. In the end, I'm interested in pursuing truth and believing the truth, no matter what the implications are, no matter how hard it may be, no matter what the consequences are, no matter what.
-Finrock
Words of Joseph Smith:
Ye are not sent out to be taught but to teach4 let every man be sober be vigilent & let all his words be seasoned with grace5 & keep in mind that it is a day of warning & not of many words.6 Act honest before God & man beware of gentile sophestry such as bowing & scraping unto men in wholm you have no confidence be honest open & frank in all your intercourse with mankind
It does matter, believe it or not. You can even learn from the devil himself, but would you allow tutelage from the devil in your spiritual endeavors?14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10)
There is wisdom in this!
And what of the others, false teachers or otherwise? Remember, there is no such thing as righteous dissenting from the Lord's church. They should keep their mouths shut!
15 And it came to pass that after there had been false Christs, and their mouths had been shut, and they punished according to their crimes;
16 And after there had been false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and all these having been punished according to their crimes; and after there having been much contention and many dissensions away unto the Lamanites, behold, it came to pass that king Benjamin, with the assistance of the holy prophets who were among his people--(Words of Mormon 1:15-16)