Heart hurt...

[Finrock]

My sweet 3 months away from being 4 year old girl --I had to help her read the scripture in primary today. In asking what scripture she was assigned-- they said you pick the one you want". So I picked something sweet and simple yet beautiful and profound... "where your heart is there your treasure will be also" I promptly made my way to Sunday school after this satisfying little experience to learn that the lesson was on D&C 76 .As we got to the point where they were talking about Celestial Kingdom requirements--- a very faithful ward member, probably in her mid-sixties, made the statement that when she was a young adult there was consistent emphasis placed / taught in the church about receiving your calling and election and laying hold upon the deeper things in the Kingdom. This sister expressed her gratitude on what has been taught for the last little while in church (the past 4 decades) about Just having to endure to the end. Comments were flying around in agreeance about how we should not look beyond the mark etc. It was such a struggle and challenge for me to hear all this. More than anything it was very sad for me to realize that this is and has been where we are at in the church for some time... the more I read and truly understand the scriptures the more sad I am by the narrative in church that suggest a different type of hungering and thirsting and obtaining then what holy writ and the Prophet Joseph Smith etc admonised... There is so much treasure to lay hold upon . Is it safe to say hearts have and are waxing cold in our desire and understanding in the necessity of obtaining these **salvational truths**? These "said" most important truths have been and are tragically minimized in Church.

There is nothing minimalized in the Church about enduring to the end. You will never get calling and election unless the Lord knows you are willing and intend and currently engaged in enduring to the end with or without it, and that you would continue to endure with it, and not think that you were just given a "free pass." That's what it means when it says you are willing to serve him "at all hazards," up to and including the prospect of not getting calling and election in life. That you are willing to do what it takes with or without calling and election, and that calling and election would just be some nice added bonus to the fact that you will endure well to the end anyway, and that your course will never change even if you never get it. And so, there is nothing tragically minimized about the necessity for enduring to the end with or without calling and election. Seeking for calling and election with the idea that you are then exempt or blessed in some way different from what you would be called to pass through otherwise is actually where you are going beyond the mark. That is what is tragic. The Lord only gives it to those who he knows will endure anyway, which is why Mormon remnant types don't actually get it, who leave the Church. That is the express definition of not enduring to the end: to go astray.

The doctrine of Calling and Election as it is popularly taught among the Mormon Remnant is actually a doctrine that has distracted many from their duty and provided for them an excuse to go astray.

Just want to point out that the substance of your post is to say that having the C&E blessing is essentially meaningless and valueless. What you are saying is that it doesn't matter whether you have it or not.

This isn't true. It does matter and you are blessed in a different way than if you didn't have it. It is worth seeking after.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

What is this "shortcut" to receiving your calling and election that everyone keeps referencing or mentioning? How does that even work?

Honestly, I think there is a lot of confusion what it means to receive your calling and election and this is a direct result of this doctrine no longer being taught unequivocally or in a straightforward, unambiguous way. Because this doctrine has been relegated to the "not really important right now" or "don't worry about it" bin, there is much confusion as to what it is, what it means, and how one obtains it. There is a lot of Mormon "myth" associated to this doctrine.

Anyways, I'm digressing from my question. What is this "shortcut" to your C&E that keeps being referenced?

-Finrock

I would be surprised if you have not read this post which is in answer to your question but this is the short cut I reference:

viewtopic.php?t=22462

As well, if you have a chance, read my last post and you may note that the doctrine is taught clearly and unequivocally and you will find no better straightforward unambiguous means than is scripturally available.

How is that post of Amonhi's a shortcut?

God gives the gift or He doesn't. If God gives the gift, then how was it a shortcut? Can we fool God? At the end of the day, what Amonhi's post boils down to is, "Ask God in the name of Christ and God will tell you if you do, if you don't, and what you need to do."

Your C&E is not like obtaining a degree or some technical certification. You can cheat your way to getting a degree that you didn't deserve, but not making your C&E. Also, there is no piece of paper that we can look to and say, "Why, yes, this man did receive his C&E. He has a certificate right here!"

So, who knows but the recipient and God.

When I see you say shortcut, I interpret that to mean, "That's not how I thought it was obtained. That is not what I always believed. Or that is different from what I've been told". Or, is it perhaps, "I don't like Amonhi so I'm going to minimize what he says" or, "I don't believe you that you have your C&E and so the way you said you obtained it can't be right"?

In any case, I agree. There is no shortcut. I don't think anyone has said that there is. "The Fastest Way Make Your Calling and Election" statement does not equal "Shortcut to Calling and Election". The fastest way to make your calling and election made sure is to talk to God about it directly and find out from Him all about it, as opposed to trusting tradition, myth, hearsay, false beliefs, or people on the internet.

-Finrock

[h_p]

God told us to seek, ask and knock. I don't know how anybody could say we SHOULDN'T do so. If someone is seeking their C&E for their own personal aggrandizement, well, I say, at least they're trying. I know I've obeyed commandments out of fear of punishment, or that some day I would gain a true testimony of the commandment. Neither were for pure reasons, but they were stepping stones to the right one. God has His ways of sorting all this out, and nobody needs to worry that someone is going to sneak in through the back door.

True, Finrock, and Jared: Thank you so much for what you've written in this thread. I can't tell you how helpful it has been to me.

[diligently seeking]

God told us to seek, ask and knock. I don't know how anybody could say we SHOULDN'T do so. If someone is seeking their C&E for their own personal aggrandizement, well, I say, at least they're trying. I know I've obeyed commandments out of fear of punishment, or that some day I would gain a true testimony of the commandment. Neither were for pure reasons, but they were stepping stones to the right one. God has His ways of sorting all this out, and nobody needs to worry that someone is going to sneak in through the back door.

True, Finrock, and Jared: Thank you so much for what you've written in this thread. I can't tell you how helpful it has been to me.

You are most welcome! All praise and honor and glory to our great Advocate our only true source of overcoming-- even the author of ALL good our most kind and approachable Savior.

Revelation 3:

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.



D&C 93:
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

[brlenox]

I wish to provide you a different perspective. You didn't seem to quite get my point. A room full of latter day saints in sunday school. The topic comes up. Universally it is derided, beyond the mark, essentially "no one receives that in this life" is the general mantra. Just as described above. This is a widely held mentality in the church. I'm not blaming anyone, this is simply a false tradition we hold. This creates some severe unbelief about what is and what is not available to us.



Lets say one of the saints in that room has persevered and has been deemed worthy of the blessing by the Lord, but in his heart he doesn't believe that he is worthy of it. That it is unobtanium. Can he still be granted the blessing even though he refuses and counts himself as unworthy? I suggest that his agency remains, he can refuse the offer! All without ever knowing it's right there and even though Lord tries to point him to it. Such a man does hearken generally, offering his best, but many of his traditions remain and are still louder in his heart and mind. This man is on the cusp of being so elevated but this somewhat minor but stubborn stumbling block remains.



In my view, it's less asking for it specifically, but being willing to accept the Lord's judgements of you. Right now. If questions help you accept His judgements, so be it. They may actually be well positioned to clear away the above issue. We are incredibly excessively hard on ourselves as a people. This is, IMHO, a very common stumbling block. We build up these experiences in the scriptures as grand and marvelous "exceptions" instead of the instructive examples they are intended to be. We think of them as impossibly hard. Our pre-conceptions actually get in our way and we form our own barriers with our unbelief. We do this instead of letting go of our conceptions and let the Lord take the reigns from time to time and guide us in our requests and prayers. "Tell me what I should ask for!" is probably one of the more powerful ways to begin a prayer you intend to make for your own welfare.

Actually, I think that you and I are on the same page in the generalities of it, which I find is commonly the case from my perspective. As Well I do understand your point but we have perhaps some nuanced differences in how we read the situation. There is perhaps a personal distinction of emphasis on how each of us is moved along in the process of learning of the opportunities that are available to us in the gospel. Now for the sake of us expanding on our perspectives and understanding one another, I am going to go into the elements of where we differ in expectation. Nonetheless, I am in no way seeking to stir anything up…just dialogue.

If I summarize what you have stated in my own words, it seems that you are illustrating the possibility that a valiant individual that has proven himself to the Lord and is worthy to be advanced in spiritual understanding may sit at the juncture of that advancement and fail to be promoted because he harbors unjustified fears that he is unworthy. You seem to be implying that he has become aware of calling and election, the Lord deems him eligible but compounding his own fears the faithless banter of those that he may esteem sufficient in knowledge is an additional deterrent. Following are specific elements of your post that I feel can be addressed by scriptural example, which we can get to in a minute.

1.) Universally it is derided, beyond the mark, essentially "no one receives that in this life"
2.) in his heart he doesn't believe that he is worthy of it.
3.) Can he still be granted the blessing even though he refuses and counts himself as unworthy?
4.) I suggest that his agency remains, he can refuse the offer!
5.) All without ever knowing it's right there and even though Lord tries to point him to it.
6.) Our pre-conceptions actually get in our way and we form our own barriers with our unbelief.

Hopefully I have that close to what you are saying and if I have grasped points beyond the words I agree that we do receive what some might consider contrary counsel in the church. One minute Alma 12 tells us to seek the mysteries, Joseph Smith encourages the same and then in an Ensign Article or conference talk we receive counsel that seeking after the mysteries is not appropriate and is a cause of risk to be led astray. Sometimes the conditions which you describe are very real for individuals in the church and largely because of the appearance of a mixed message. Perhaps you recall those misgivings in your own path trodden in your efforts of understanding and I certainly know that I have given more than passing thought to the conflict. Sometimes in our quest to be obedient we feel torn between two masters. Up to this point, if this is in some way related to your point then we are in agreement with the reality of the state of being. This is real and occurs too many.

However, I think this is where we will part in agreement. It appears that in your mind this is something that needs to be remedied and corrected and that we should be bolder in teaching “correct doctrine” so that the membership will properly understand their true potential and in that more will be in the position to seek these greater blessings. I honestly think that this state of mind is one of those false teachings we see on this forum in abundance and for many it has led them to question the leadership of the church and create doubt as to their intentions. I quotation the words “correct doctrine” because I think also we might be expecting the obvious that they need to know of the calling and election material and how to go about the process and I wonder if that is not the correct doctrine that should occupy the concerns of the people in their lives.

Yet for me, as pertaining to incomplete understandings about these matters, I simply think it doesn’t matter. First off I think both statements on learning the mysteries are correct doctrine. We need to seek after the mysteries and the blessings promised and we need avoid seeking after the mysteries. If the saints don’t take the time to study out the meanings of the prophets and apostles they are left with superficial understandings that seem in opposition when in reality these two positions are worlds apart. However, that is a digression…the reason I don’t think it matters is precisely in agreement with something you have said but I emphasize the opposite perspective but with the same earnest belief that you recommend. Here is your observation:

We build up these experiences in the scriptures as grand and marvelous "exceptions" instead of the instructive examples they are intended to be. We think of them as impossibly hard. Our pre-conceptions actually get in our way and we form our own barriers with our unbelief.

AI.20 referred to it in her post, and I am going to take this observation and apply it to the quintessential of all scripture stories for receiving one’s calling and election and apply it how I think you mean and what I would mean if I said the exact same words. As well I will take the list of observations made in your post and attempt to illustrate how each one fades in significance in light of the scriptural record.

Of course I speak of the Brother of Jared. In essence, I think that what you are emphasizing is that the Brother of Jared, in the narrative found in Ether chapter 3, has a tremendous experience. He transcends all of the boundaries and limitations of this sphere, the veil is parted and he … he… actually crosses through and stands in the presence of the Lord. He converses with the Lord. He beholds his spirit body and he is greatly blessed with a blessing that should not be made to appear so singular, as if he is the only one who can have such an experience. In fact if we really took the message of this great event to heart properly we would realize that anyone of us can have what the Brother of Jared had and we should be seeking to have so great a blessing ourselves as the Lord offers it to all. I am sure that I am not exactly what you would say but I hope it is close enough that it will address the difference of what I see. I will need a few verses to paint the image.

Ether 3:6

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

This calls into question on of those doctrines, I think we commonly misunderstand in the church being taught frequently that fear and faith do not coexists and that those who fear cannot exercise faith. However, the point is that the Brother of Jared is wigged out at what is going on in front of him and he is enveloped in a state of fear. Now your point number 6 above speaks to a barrier of unbelief. Maybe unbelief and no belief are in subtle ways different but either way he is manifesting that he has some serious preconceptions, however, whatever he believed is not an obstacle here. He clearly does not believe correctly and lives in a state of complete ignorance as to the truth of Christ’s appearance. But it is of no consequence.


The Lord observing the Brother of Jared’s response to his finger and his obvious fear comforts him by telling him to stand and explain himself. The Brother of Jared reiterates in words what moments ago was the unspoken terror in his heart. He feared that Christ would kill him at worst, perhaps thump him on the head at best, but he is terrified at the realization that Christ’s possesses flesh and blood. In your list of things above number 2 you state that "in his heart he doesn't believe that he is worthy of it." Now perhaps it is debatable to some but I am of the mind to think that is precisely what is driving the Brother of Jared. Here am I near in presence to the Lord obviously, because I just saw a finger floating in mid-air and how can one so lowly as I and completely beneath God be this close and not be destroyed. For my money, he feels completely unworthy to be here in this proximity to the Lord.

Now, in completely opposite terms of what the Brother of Jared is describing as fear and shock the Lord in verse 9 call it something else:

Ether 3:9
9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

Christ seeing beyond the Brother of Jareds mischaracterizations that he is full of fear observes something completely different. Christ sees that whatever else he may have in the mix that what is by far dominate is that the Brother of Jared is filled with Faith. Faith!! Can you imagine what a reality check that must have caused for the Brother of Jared who has been sitting on the ground in a puddle of his own sweat waiting in deep anxiety for a dose of smiting? This addresses point number 5, 3 and 4 on your list of concerns. This is the beginning of the Lord pointing him to something he has not even conceived of as he has no clue where this is going. He doesn’t know a thing, I am pretty sure that his feelings of unworthiness were present and accounted for and he perhaps intuitively discerns from the question “sawest thou more than this” that maybe Christ is offering to part the veil further and perhaps might show him more than man has ever beheld. As for number 1, since this is certainly not an expected thing and may perhaps be new to his people I’m am going to suggest that most would discourage the possibilities of what is about to happen. Perhaps it hasn’t happened where others claim no one receives that in this life and so he has not been subjected to the doubt of possibility but if it has or if it hasn’t I am going to reassert that it doesn’t matter.

The Brother of Jared is in a situation that, at least tangentially embraces a majority if not all of your concerns about the unnamed member of high potential in your gospel doctrine class. The focus of your concern is that his faith will be inadequate in such a doubt creating environment and that his feelings of unworthiness may hinder him – but as I have intimated throughout I do not think those are issues.

The issue in my mind is not that we may miss the mark for not thinking we can receive what the Brother of Jared received but is instead that we will not believe that if we are prepared properly and in the correct ways that Christ will not pull us up from our fears, our misunderstandings, our incorrect perceptions when he feels we are ready. Christ is the constant here – not the Brother of Jared.

Now, in one more final comparison to your comments above number 4 again bears a moment more attention. I am not in disagreement with the gist of the observation but I question whether it is a legitimate concern. Sure agency is a critical issue but by the time someone is about to be pulled into the presence of the Lord his will or right to choose has long been abandoned to the Lord – after the fashion of I’ll go where you want me to go, I’ll do what you want me to do. This is where a couple of more verses from Ether 3 suggests a remarkable, kind of a fail-safe limitation to the structure and durability of the veil that separates man from God:

Ether 3:18-20

18 And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

Apparently, it is not concerned with the knowing that a man can have his calling and election made sure nor several other generally over emphasized expectations of man, that permits one to stand in the presence of the Lord. However, it does have to do with knowledge. However, again we have covered the areas of knowledge the Brother of Jared lacked so it must be something else, some other knowledge. Ether 3 is the example verses that complete Alma 32 the seed, faith, knowledge process. We miss the point sometimes I think but Alma 32 is the description of what the Brother of Jared did to come to this point where his final act of planting his faith was turned into perfect knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. A discussion for another day….

So where you stated as I quoted earlier the following:

We build up these experiences in the scriptures as grand and marvelous "exceptions" instead of the instructive examples they are intended to be. We think of them as impossibly hard. Our pre-conceptions actually get in our way and we form our own barriers with our unbelief.

What I would say from my perspective is that we get so focused on the magnificence of the experiences individuals have in the scriptures that we forget that the moderator of receipt is the constant. He sees the criteria for receipt of the blessing somewhat different than the grandeur of the event may suggest. Thus the only thing that gets in our way is if we do not seek him with all our heart, might, mind and strength. He will see that we receive all of the blessing we can accept just as he did the Brother of Jared even with the perceived several shortcomings in his experience that really were not issues at all.

[BTH&T]

God told us to seek, ask and knock. I don't know how anybody could say we SHOULDN'T do so.
If someone is seeking their C&E for their own personal aggrandizement, well, I say, at least they're trying. I know I've obeyed commandments out of fear of punishment, or that some day I would gain a true testimony of the commandment. Neither were for pure reasons, but they were stepping stones to the right one. God has His ways of sorting all this out, and nobody needs to worry that someone is going to sneak in through the back door.

True, Finrock, and Jared: Thank you so much for what you've written in this thread. I can't tell you how helpful it has been to me.

Wanted to give a better explanation of what I meant in my earlier post, I did a terrible job and I apologize.

We each should knock, ask, and seek every type of spiritual help, blessing, and gift that God has promised.

The following scripture illustrates what I think is required to gain eternal life (and to me this includes C&E, Second Comforter)

Mark 10: 17-22
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running,
and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him,
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Thou knowest the commandments,
Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness,
Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Then Jesus beholding him loved him,
and said unto him, One thing thou lackest:

Here the Savoir shows that he knew the heart of this young rich man, The Lord knew he was a good man who understood the law of the day.
The young man by all outward appearances did all that was needed, except!

go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven:
and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

This young rich man lacked Charity, the Pure love of Christ!


1 Cornithians 8:1
..... we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

*******

One of the issues I've had with many of the posts is the attitudes that seep out when I've read what others have written on the subject.
The purpose of the Gospel is to return to our Father. There is a path that has been set forth for us and when it seems that the objectives are to make one aspect of it (C&E, SC) above others, which is what it feels like to me, I do think we miss the mark when we put what has been established by God as His way, and pick out what part suits us or what we think is more relevant or important.

So many of those that fall from truth are led away by slight deceptions, yes striving for ones Calling and Election is good thing, but when it becomes the main thing we lose our way from the plain and precious truths.

The little I have seen, read or have heard about the fringe groups or people shows that they cling to as much truth as possible while at the same time finding some way to find an issue to focus on. It shows how the slightest wedge that satan can use against us takes us away from the peace that the Savior gives.

[EdGoble]

Just want to point out that the substance of your post is to say that having the C&E blessing is essentially meaningless and valueless. What you are saying is that it doesn't matter whether you have it or not.

This isn't true. It does matter and you are blessed in a different way than if you didn't have it. It is worth seeking after.

-Finrock

You totally misinterpreted what I said. Sorry. Yes it does matter in that it is a blessing for faithfulness, but it doesn't change what one's course is, or ones behavior or attitude. If you missed that, you have misread what I said entirely. But my point stands that it doesn't matter for the eventuality of someone's exaltation one way or the other if they do endure, and it doesn't change the fact that one must endure to the end either way. If you didn't understand this from what I just said, I'm sorry. But this is true what I said.

[EdGoble]

I would like to say that there are certain trials, difficulties, lessons, and necessary experiences to becoming like Christ that one can't endure unless they have the promise from the Father.

Not entirely true, because they will get their Abrahamic trial with or without it at some point.

The C&E does not make you exempt from trials (in fact they will likely increase afterwards), it doesn't make you walk on water, you aren't now superhuman, and, importantly, the refining process doesn't end. But, with the promise comes a sure foundation upon which one can build their life, even when the Cat. 5+ hurricanes begin to beat upon your house.

-Finrock

Nobody said you are exempt. It is true it is a sure foundation, but it is not necessary to get exaltation to seek after it in life, and some people don't want it. One can wait till death if necessary. Period. Therefore it is an added bonus as I said, an added blessing that can be sought for, but not a blessing that ought to be sought for for the wrong reasons. Therefore, for the majority of people, it is not a blessing that they need, and therefore it is not basic to the formula of getting back to the Father. And therefore, too much emphasis on it is a distraction. Therefore the Brethren are right not to emphasize something that for the majority is a distraction.

[Finrock]

I would like to say that there are certain trials, difficulties, lessons, and necessary experiences to becoming like Christ that one can't endure unless they have the promise from the Father.

Not entirely true, because they will get their Abrahamic trial with or without it at some point.

How do you know?

The C&E does not make you exempt from trials (in fact they will likely increase afterwards), it doesn't make you walk on water, you aren't now superhuman, and, importantly, the refining process doesn't end. But, with the promise comes a sure foundation upon which one can build their life, even when the Cat. 5+ hurricanes begin to beat upon your house.

-Finrock

Nobody said you are exempt. It is true it is a sure foundation, but it is not necessary to get exaltation to seek after it in life, and some people don't want it. One can wait till death if necessary. Period. Therefore it is an added bonus as I said, an added blessing that can be sought for, but not a blessing that ought to be sought for for the wrong reasons. Therefore, for the majority of people, it is not a blessing that they need, and therefore it is not basic to the formula of getting back to the Father. And therefore, too much emphasis on it is a distraction. Therefore the Brethren are right not to emphasize something that for the majority is a distraction.

You say that I misunderstood you, but, your post again says that it is valueless and meaningless. You call it an added bonus, but an added bonus to what? The sum result of what you are preaching is that when it is all said and done, this doctrine is not important, it is unnecessary, and we can safely choose to not seek after it because, it really doesn't make any difference one way or the other.

All will graduate college, but, if you get your C&E, you get a "Gold Star" sticker?

Rest assured that if you seek for something from God for the wrong reasons, you won't obtain it. That isn't a concern that you need to have. God will not be fooled or tricked. However, it is foolish of us to tell people not to obey God's commandments or tell people that something God has commanded and promised is not necessary.

But, I agree. Many people don't want the fullness of the gospel. They don't want the Abrahamic trial, as you say. They say they do, but when push comes to shove, they say, "I will go this far, but I won't do that. That is too much!" Despite what you believe, there will be many trials and test that are actually necessary that you will not receive nor would you be able to endure it, without the promise.

I don't understand or accept the doctrine that seeking after something that God has commanded and has promised is a distraction to the righteous. It is a distraction to those who wish to have one foot in Babylon and another foot in Zion. It is a distraction from worldly pursuits and to those who aren't interested in sacrificing their all. But, it isn't a distraction from those who desire to do all that God has asked them to do. Covenants and promises with God are the enabling power in life. It is the key to salvation and exaltation. You will not obtain exaltation without the promise of it. And, remember, today is the day to work out your salvation. Not when the night has come and all work ceases. But, today...now. In other words, this mortal life is the day for us to perform all of our labors. Whatever spirit we possess when we leave this earth, will possess us in the spirit world. I wouldn't hedge my bets that we don't need to obtain our promises while in this probationary state and we can safely wait until the night has come. If we aren't willing or wanting to do it here, we are not going to be willing and wanting to do it there, even if it's possible.

-Finrock

EDIT: I made clarifications to my post.

[diligently seeking]

Brother, Ed just as the Lord grew in the grace of the Father Line upon line precept upon precept here a little there a little. So it is with us. If you are hungering and thirsting after righteousness you will be born of God. When one receives the Holy Ghost through this occurrence --an increase of fathers gifts are given-- a person then naturally yearns and strives for further light and truth / sanctification. The problem with many, if I could make this observation, when it comes to enduring to the end is that this effort too often involves simply going through the motions / checking the box... Remember this is what king Benjamin's people were doing. They offered their burnt sacrifice they had their tents towards the temple they were faithfull and ready to work--- but they had not yet been changed / converted in Christ. After through their FAITH in Jesus And bringing forth a broken heart and contrithe spirit-- they became actual Saints through his atonement and were purified by the Holy Ghost... and became spiritual offspring of Christ and he became the Father of their spiritual re-birth / born again --an increase of the gifts of the Spirit were theirs. It was natural for King Benjamin to encourage them to continue on in being steadfast and immovable abounding in Good Works so the next step could occur which Christ would seal them up / they would receive their calling election. The Book of Mormon teaches us (Joseph Smith fills in the gaps) the next step after receiving ones calling election is receiving Christ and having that election made sure. If one has NOT been born of God as understood and represented in mosiah chapter 4 & 5 moving forward with an eye of Faith to receive more--- probably would be bothersome?? I humbly give my opinion that such people will be content with going through the motions--All is well in Zion mentality / check the box and endure to the end. I don't share that to mock in anyway-- I simply see this with my own eyes and I've experienced this approach in my life. Both approaches bare different fruits one more than the other( tellestial, terestial, and celestial)... When I read the scriptures etc seeking to "receive a greater portion of God's word" this is meat and potato gospel salvational / celestial stuff see d&c 88 and 76 etc. These are the truths and blessings and LIGHT that many members rejected nearly two years into the restoration. (D&C 84) Hence the condemnation that has not been lifted. How do we lift it individually and in our families and within the church-- we follow the blueprint of the book of Mormon on how a Christ centered life should look like and be. Be not faithless but be believing... try your individual best --praying for his grace every step of the way --he WILL bless and find you.

[shadow]

But, I agree. Many people don't want the fullness of the gospel. They don't want the Abrahamic trial, as you say. They say they do, but when push comes to shove, they say, "I will go this far, but I won't do that. That is too much!" Despite what you believe, you will not receive your Abrahamic trial nor would you be able to endure it, without the promise.


-Finrock

I agree with you here.
Just look at how many LDS's on this site who deny that polygamy even took place via Joseph Smith. They both deny the fulness and refuse Joseph's Abrahamic test. I think some of the most ardent C&E folks are the ones who miss the mark the most.

[Elefant]

But, I agree. Many people don't want the fullness of the gospel. They don't want the Abrahamic trial, as you say. They say they do, but when push comes to shove, they say, "I will go this far, but I won't do that. That is too much!" Despite what you believe, you will not receive your Abrahamic trial nor would you be able to endure it, without the promise.


-Finrock

Sorry when I go OT here, but I need to know this. The Abrahamic trial comes after the promise? I always thought that the Abrahamic test would be the price to receive it? Then why that test, if eternal life is already granted?

[Finrock]

But, I agree. Many people don't want the fullness of the gospel. They don't want the Abrahamic trial, as you say. They say they do, but when push comes to shove, they say, "I will go this far, but I won't do that. That is too much!" Despite what you believe, you will not receive your Abrahamic trial nor would you be able to endure it, without the promise.


-Finrock

Sorry when I go OT here, but I need to know this. The Abrahamic trial comes after the promise? I always thought that the Abrahamic test would be the price to receive it? Then why that test, if eternal life is already granted?

I was using the term a bit loosely because that is what EdGoble used. I guess the simplest answer is that there are many "tests". There isn't just this one "Abrahamic Test" and then you are done. All of the things required of us are with the purpose of refining us or brining us closer to Christ.

Here is a question to think about. How much and what are we capable of enduring if don't have an actual assurance or actual knowledge from God, not someone else, but from God Himself, that "...the course of life which [we] [are] pursuing, is according to his will"?

The scriptures show examples of what individuals had to endure even after having had their calling and election made sure.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

God told us to seek, ask and knock. I don't know how anybody could say we SHOULDN'T do so. If someone is seeking their C&E for their own personal aggrandizement, well, I say, at least they're trying. I know I've obeyed commandments out of fear of punishment, or that some day I would gain a true testimony of the commandment. Neither were for pure reasons, but they were stepping stones to the right one. God has His ways of sorting all this out, and nobody needs to worry that someone is going to sneak in through the back door.

True, Finrock, and Jared: Thank you so much for what you've written in this thread. I can't tell you how helpful it has been to me.

"If someone is seeking their C&E for their own personal aggrandizement, well, I say at least they're trying'."

I'm sorry, but while at the very least, 'trying' is usually commended, in this instance, it is not. It's not to their improvement or betterment if they are seeking after this sacred gift for their own aggrandizement, because of the damage it can do if done for the wrong reason. If someone seeks after Calling and Election made sure for selfish reasons, they have NO UNDERSTANDING of what this gift truly means and they could be headed towards their own damnation--because of the very nature of what Calling and Election really means.

No one can 'sneak' in the back door, that's not the concern. The concern is the very real danger of being deceived and being taken AWAY from the true God and the Savior, Jesus Christ. This happens; we've seen tragic examples on this forum.

[h_p]

I'm sorry, but while at the very least, 'trying' is usually commended, in this instance, it is not. It's not to their improvement or betterment if they are seeking after this sacred gift for their own aggrandizement, because of the damage it can do if done for the wrong reason. If someone seeks after Calling and Election made sure for selfish reasons, they have NO UNDERSTANDING of what this gift truly means and they could be headed towards their own damnation--because of the very nature of what Calling and Election really means.

I'm not sure how we're actually disagreeing here, so please help me understand better what you're saying. So if you would, if someone tells you they are praying and hoping to one day return to Father's presence, do you also question their motives, fearing that they may be doing it for selfish reasons?

I'm just having a hard time understanding why someone wanting to make their calling and election sure is treated with so much suspicion.

[Finrock]

God told us to seek, ask and knock. I don't know how anybody could say we SHOULDN'T do so. If someone is seeking their C&E for their own personal aggrandizement, well, I say, at least they're trying. I know I've obeyed commandments out of fear of punishment, or that some day I would gain a true testimony of the commandment. Neither were for pure reasons, but they were stepping stones to the right one. God has His ways of sorting all this out, and nobody needs to worry that someone is going to sneak in through the back door.

True, Finrock, and Jared: Thank you so much for what you've written in this thread. I can't tell you how helpful it has been to me.

"If someone is seeking their C&E for their own personal aggrandizement, well, I say at least they're trying'."

I'm sorry, but while at the very least, 'trying' is usually commended, in this instance, it is not. It's not to their improvement or betterment if they are seeking after this sacred gift for their own aggrandizement, because of the damage it can do if done for the wrong reason. If someone seeks after Calling and Election made sure for selfish reasons, they have NO UNDERSTANDING of what this gift truly means and they could be headed towards their own damnation--because of the very nature of what Calling and Election really means.

No one can 'sneak' in the back door, that's not the concern. The concern is the very real danger of being deceived and being taken AWAY from the true God and the Savior, Jesus Christ. This happens; we've seen tragic examples on this forum.

Being deceived is a big concern, for anyone. Best to seek, to obtain, and to maintain the Holy Ghost and to do whatever the Holy Ghost tells you to do. The Holy Ghost will not lead us astray but it will lead us to Christ and to all good things.

Best to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and to have that mighty change of heart that King Benjamin speaks about.

-Finrock

[BackBlast]

You are right, there aren't any shortcuts and most of us agree on this. The problem is that some members on this forum are under the mistaken notion that there IS a shortcut and they are misleading others to believe this also. Look at the thread Brelnox shared.

What is the shortcut? I have failed to identify it. I have read that thread. I see no shortcut. Seeking and asking isn't a shortcut. We are commanded to seek, those who seek find. Waving a hand and saying that ignorance is a grand and glorious state is wrong. Showing a man at some level of ignorance does not prove the point either. Certainly the Lord can work with us at some level of ignorance if our hearts are correct, but that doesn't make it a desirable state.

[brlenox]

You are right, there aren't any shortcuts and most of us agree on this. The problem is that some members on this forum are under the mistaken notion that there IS a shortcut and they are misleading others to believe this also. Look at the thread Brelnox shared.

What is the shortcut? I have failed to identify it. I have read that thread. I see no shortcut. Seeking and asking isn't a shortcut. We are commanded to seek, those who seek find. Waving a hand and saying that ignorance is a grand and glorious state is wrong. Showing a man at some level of ignorance does not prove the point either. Certainly the Lord can work with us at some level of ignorance if our hearts are correct, but that doesn't make it a desirable state.

I don't have but a moment so I must be incomplete in my answer. Amonhi's approach does nothing to warn the anxious seeker concerning the risks involved with seeking before one is prepared. It ignores the possibilities of deception and teaches no one how to recognize when they are being led astray. It does not recognize that when you open one door of profound righteous experience then of necessity Satan is allowed to open the next door to profound temptation. I will provide a few quotes to illustrate these points.

It is not wise to wrestle with the revelations with such insistence as to demand immediate answers or blessings to your liking. You cannot force spiritual things. Such words as compel, coerce, constrain, pressure, demand, do not describe our privileges with the Spirit. You can no more force the Spirit to respond than you can force a bean to sprout, or an egg to hatch before it's time. You can create a climate to foster growth, nourish, and protect; but you cannot force or compel: you must await the growth. Do not be impatient to gain great spiritual knowledge. Let it grow, help it grow, but do not force it or you will open the way to be misled. (Boyd K. Packer, "The Candle of the Lord Ensign, Jan. 1983, p.53.)

I noticed when I was very young in the Church, that men who were greatly gifted of the Lord and had many manifestations, were the men who apostatized; with the exception of the Prophet Joseph Smith, nearly everyone was overthrown. I suppose the reason of it was that they were lifted up in pride and allowed the adversary to take advantage of them. I would like well enough to see these gifts and blessings multiplied among us and upon us, that as a people we should have dreams and visions and manifestations of the Spirit; but there is one thing that we have all got to be very careful about, and that is this: I have seen Elders in my experience that when they got their own spirit moved very much they imagined that it was the Spirit of God, and it was difficult in some instances to tell the difference between the suggestions of their own spirit and the voice of the spirit of God. This is a gift of itself, to be able to distinguish that which suggests itself to our own hearts and that which comes from God. And we are misled sometimes by our own feeling, because of our inability to distinguish between the voice of the Spirit of God and the suggestions of our own spirit. George Q. Cannon JD 22:104

“The nearer a person approaches the Lord, a greater power will be manifested by the adversary to prevent the accomplishment of His purposes.” -Joseph Smith as quoted in "Life of Heber C. Kimball," by Orson F. Whitney, p. 132

I ask, is there a reason for men and women being exposed more constantly and more powerfully, to the power of the enemy, by having visions than by not having them? There is and it is simply this—God never bestows upon His people, or upon an individual, superior blessings without a severe trial to prove them, to prove that individual, or that people, to see whether they will keep their covenants with Him, and keep in remembrance what He has shown them. Then the greater the vision, the greater the display of the power of the enemy. (Eternal Increase of Knowledge—Necessity of Cleaving to Every Good Principle—Men Are not Made Saints By Miraculous Gifts, But Through Obeying the Truth, and Obtaining the Witness of the Spirit.A Discourse by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, February 17, 1856. Reported By: G. D. Watt.)

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power laws, government, intelligence, etc., and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God. ....

...A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects. Long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage and desolation are habiliments in which it has been clothed.
(“Try the Spirits”, The Prophet’s Editorial in the Times and Seasons, History of the Church 4:571-581. (See also Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 202-215.)

I may come back to this list and try to flush this out a bit but for now this should serve to illustrate why calling and election is not just something you ask for. It goes back to the "you took no thought but to ask" response God gave Oliver Cowdery. So it is not something you ask for, it is something you must, absolutely must prepare for. And generally it takes the better part of a lifetime for the spirit to prepare one against the wiles of the adversary. Currently this message as Amonhi has prepared it is frequently swallowed hook line and sinker by those in the 35 and under age group, the disaffected from mainstream Mormonism group, and a couple of aging very anxious divorcees who I run into from time to time. Please reply if this does not make it clearer as I would be very interested in understanding why.

[BackBlast]

However, I think this is where we will part in agreement. It appears that in your mind this is something that needs to be remedied and corrected and that we should be bolder in teaching “correct doctrine” so that the membership will properly understand their true potential and in that more will be in the position to seek these greater blessings. I honestly think that this state of mind is one of those false teachings we see on this forum in abundance and for many it has led them to question the leadership of the church and create doubt as to their intentions. I quotation the words “correct doctrine” because I think also we might be expecting the obvious that they need to know of the calling and election material and how to go about the process and I wonder if that is not the correct doctrine that should occupy the concerns of the people in their lives.

You are creating a generality that I didn't intend here. Everyone is at a different level, and I don't think we should have a large emphasis on calling and election. Few need that. Doesn't mean we should discount the doctrine or idea, sell it short, or say it should not be taught, or call those actually seeking it as following some kind of shortcut or path of deception. As if seeking blessings from the Lord's hands is something we should not all aspire to.

My view of recent events is that the devil has tried very hard to preposition a poisoning of this doctrine right before we will need it in larger measures. Thus he can use guilt by association and other devices to turn off potential candidates for it to blind them and lead them away. Or at least slow their progression as much as he can. It isn't until we have critical mass of such people that the Lord can walk freely among them, and I believe that is the kind of people that describes Zion's inhabitants.

6.) Our pre-conceptions actually get in our way and we form our own barriers with our unbelief.
....
I am not in disagreement with the gist of the observation but I question whether it is a legitimate concern.

Cutting this down to the core of what you are saying.

I make the point not from speculation, but from experience. It was a legitimate concern for me as I denied myself gifts freely offered even even after I was told what I was doing. I was so stubborn and obstinate this wasn't enough. It took some knowledge for me to clear this barrier. Having had personal experience in this vein, and I believe I am generally more open and believing than most (honest assessment). I must concluded based on that personal experience and seeing the general unbelief of our people, that this is a legitimate concern for others as well. Not just for this step but for other previous steps as well - like receiving the Holy Ghost.

I don't start threads on calling and election. But I really don't like it when others seem to hedge up the way by throwing doubts, flack, and telling others to use the breaks on steps essential for salvation because someone, somewhere, might be deceived or did it wrong.

[brlenox]

I make the point not from speculation, but from experience. It was a legitimate concern for me as I denied myself gifts freely offered even even after I was told what I was doing. I was so stubborn and obstinate this wasn't enough. It took some knowledge for me to clear this barrier. Having had personal experience in this vein, and I believe I am generally more open and believing than most (honest assessment). I must concluded based on that personal experience and seeing the general unbelief of our people, that this is a legitimate concern for others as well. Not just for this step but for other previous steps as well - like receiving the Holy Ghost.

You are not really responding to the information and the warning I put out. That is always a point for concern. However, you prove my point in this paragraph above. God always has to strive with man. Not just you but with all of us and the wonderful thing is will do it. He even got through stubborn, obstinate BackBlast to teach you what you needed to know. That is how it works.

[Z2100]

I don't think there are any shortcuts.

I think there's a large number of people in the church (I was one of them) who believe that the path to the Celestial Kingdom is something like this:
1. Get baptized and confirmed
2. Get the priesthood
3. Go on a mission
4. Get married in the temple
5. Die as an active member of the church (ie, endure to the end)
6. On judgement day, plea for leniency before the Judge

I think, if anything, that's the shortcut, because it's easy and false. It doesn't really require the sacrifice that is actually required, and pretty much any culture-Mormon can do it.

I dunno, I said I think there's a large number who think like that, but maybe I'm the only one. It just seemed to match up pretty well with what I thought I was always hearing in church talks and GC. If I'm the only blind idiot in the church, I'd consider that a good thing.

You are partly right. The steps are just basic tenets to get to the Celestial Kingdom. But the things that count the most are the little things. Beating your testimony, serving people in your Ward, obeying the Word of Wisdom, etc. Everything has eternal consequences.

[BackBlast]

I don't have but a moment so I must be incomplete in my answer. Amonhi's approach does nothing to warn the anxious seeker concerning the risks involved with seeking before one is prepared. It ignores the possibilities of deception and teaches no one how to recognize when they are being led astray. It does not recognize that when you open one door of profound righteous experience then of necessity Satan is allowed to open the next door to profound temptation. I will provide a few quotes to illustrate these points.

Frankly, brevity is a virtue. I find your posts laborious, often I have to skip paragraphs or I would never have time to respond. Time is at a slight premium right now.

I do agree that his general post was incomplete. He is skipping the gospel and going right to the crowning blessing. I don't think that necessarily makes it a short cut. I believe I can see where he might feel it correct given the target audience, which should, in theory, have the fundamentals well in hand.

I would echo Finrock, the Holy Ghost is key, which is also a pre-requisite to all this.

[BackBlast]

You are not really responding to the information and the warning I put out. That is always a point for concern. However, you prove my point in this paragraph above. God always has to strive with man. Not just you but with all of us and the wonderful thing is will do it. He even got through stubborn, obstinate BackBlast to teach you what you needed to know. That is how it works.

I cannot fully digest your posts in the time I have available for it. If I didn't find the point you wanted me to, I suggest you make your post simpler and more concise because I cannot allow you to monopolize my time in that fashion.

I guess if you feel it proves your point then we are not in disagreement.

[brlenox]

You are not really responding to the information and the warning I put out. That is always a point for concern. However, you prove my point in this paragraph above. God always has to strive with man. Not just you but with all of us and the wonderful thing is he will do it. He even got through stubborn, obstinate BackBlast to teach you what you needed to know. That is how it works.

I cannot fully digest your posts in the time I have available for it. If I didn't find the point you wanted me to, I suggest you make your post simpler and more concise because I cannot allow you to monopolize my time in that fashion.

I guess if you feel it proves your point then we are not in disagreement.

Well, that's fine. Just skip my posts in the future. Most people it seems do forums as a means of electronic small talk. I do not do small talk in real life. My goal is to soundly teach correct principles as such a way to illustrate what the brethren have taught. I have no opinions, per se, and I make every effort to remove the cavilerity of non-substantiated claims and tie them to prophets and apostles and scripture in order to correct errant beliefs. Probably not too much of an issue for you and it fails to be genuine dialogue if you are just responding without knowing what is being said.

[EdGoble]

You say that I misunderstood you, but, your post again says that it is valueless and meaningless.

Don't be silly.