Heart hurt...

[Jonesy]

Apology accepted even though there is no need to apologize to me as far as I'm concerned. You aren't the first person to do this and I've come to expect such things. I can't tell you how many times I've had to pass someone's arbitrary "loyalty" test when in reality it is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

Please consider that testing someone's faith or a person's testimony or who they associate with does not give any merit or take away any merit from their ideas. It should not be a criteria for when we are communicating and sharing ideas. Each idea or thought ought to be examined as it stands on its own. "Who" shares an idea doesn't matter. Either ideas are true or they are false. An idea doesn't derive its truth value from the person speaking it.

Please allow me to get on a soapbox for the moment...

There is a right way and a wrong way to discuss and to consider ideas. I believe in the principles of critical thinking. I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ requires that I elevate my thinking above the common, therefore, I have tried to adopt certain critical thinking principles in my life. Even though me sharing this shouldn't matter to the ideas I share, I point this out because it is important to the overall quality of the types of discourse that takes place here. Please take some time to consider some key ideas to critical thinking which ought to guide how we think from the link provided below. I think if each of us adopted these universal principles of good thinking (which all align with the "Golden Rule") there would be far less contention and a whole lot more of edification, etc. If I may share a personal wish and desire of mine it is that I wish that there would be a place where individuals can discuss ideas, safely, without worrying about being attacked on a personal level, without being mocked, ridiculed, having their faith called in to question, or any of these other personal things. Let me be clear that I don't mean a place where individuals can say what they want and never be challenged, but that when they are challenged there will be no "ad hominem" components to the challenge. I understand why things are the way they are now and I accept it, but I don't like it and I wish things were different. I recognize that so much of how people think and what they believe is governed by their sociocentric and egocentric views and when these paradigms are challenged people feel threatened. But, we don't have to attack a person personally or use language to demean or to dress down people in order to disagree or to make a counter point. We ought to apply the principles of critical thinking in our reasoning and responses. Something else to consider, not as a means to condemn but as a means to identify, you can discern a lot as to where a person is spiritually and emotionally from the way they interact and treat other people, especially how they treat others they disagree with or who they might see as inferior to them.

So, here are ideas that I value highly and by which I try (and I readily admit I often fail at this) to govern my communications on this forum. Again, even though it shouldn't matter, it should give you some insight as to where I am coming from to some degree: http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/v ... traits/528

And, here are some universal intellectual standards that will help us to "reason together": http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/u ... ndards/527

Finally, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me or with any idea. You might find me pointing out personal attacks, defending others from personal attacks and even defending individuals from personal attacks when I don't agree with said individual's ideas. I don't like bullying and I don't like abusive behavior. Also, I readily admit that many of the ideas I share are unorthodox, however, that doesn't automatically make them wrong and it doesn't make me an apostate or an evil person. I don't accept all orthodoxy or all of what constitutes the typical "Mormon Paradigm". Some of my strengths in life are that I'm an open minded individual, I try to have intellectual empathy and humility, among other traits, and so I can consider an idea from the perspective of my "opponent". I am analytical and conscientious by nature. Of course I have weaknesses and flaws, but, the talents I do have I am grateful for and I don't apologize for any good quality or trait which I have, even when it makes me unpopular to some. I don't care about popularity either. I have no agenda and I'm not affiliated with any group, "apostate" or otherwise. In the end, I'm interested in pursuing truth and believing the truth, no matter what the implications are, no matter how hard it may be, no matter what the consequences are, no matter what.

-Finrock

There is nothing wrong with learning from others. However, it is important in spiritual matters. This is exactly how I got into my deception. I was listening to someone who was not sent, although claiming otherwise. If you are not a member of the church, you have no business preaching the gospel. Additionally, if you are missing fundamental parts of your testimony, that should be addressed first! Only elders and members of the church are charged with that calling.

Words of Joseph Smith:

Ye are not sent out to be taught but to teach4 let every man be sober be vigilent & let all his words be seasoned with grace5 & keep in mind that it is a day of warning & not of many words.6 Act honest before God & man beware of gentile sophestry such as bowing & scraping unto men in wholm you have no confidence be honest open & frank in all your intercourse with mankind

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10)

It does matter, believe it or not. You can even learn from the devil himself, but would you allow tutelage from the devil in your spiritual endeavors?

There is wisdom in this!

And what of the others, false teachers or otherwise? Remember, there is no such thing as righteous dissenting from the Lord's church. They should keep their mouths shut!

15 And it came to pass that after there had been false Christs, and their mouths had been shut, and they punished according to their crimes;
16 And after there had been false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and all these having been punished according to their crimes; and after there having been much contention and many dissensions away unto the Lamanites, behold, it came to pass that king Benjamin, with the assistance of the holy prophets who were among his people--(Words of Mormon 1:15-16)

[brlenox]

I apologize. You're right, I assumed. At times, you have not been frank in what you believe. As a member of the Church, that testimony should be expected. Not having those testimonies is a red flag and of great concern. But it should not be a tool of judgement.

Jonesy1982

That is a beautifully crafted apology, that I do not think was completely grasped for what it said.

well done...

[brlenox]

We need to pray, pray often and with full intent of heart. I don't think that there are thing you can't ask the Lord. You can go before him with any matter. Imagine a loving Father whith whom you can't talk about certain things. If we take everything befor the Lord we actually sort things out. And I dont believe that people can go astray by praying to God, if the heart is sincere. Jesus told us to pray always. If a person wants to talk with God about calling and election, why not. If the heart is sincere the prayer will take the right direction.

This is one of those points of discussion that is so difficult to bring clarity to. Of course when you follow all of instructions for prayers, ie being cleansed and purified and having the spirit guide your prayers that ye shall know what to ask:

Doctrine and Covenants 50:29-32

29 And if ye are purified and cleansed from all sin, ye shall ask whatsoever you will in the name of Jesus and it shall be done.

30 But know this, it shall be given you what you shall ask; and as ye are appointed to the head, the spirits shall be subject unto you.

31 Wherefore, it shall come to pass, that if you behold a spirit manifested that you cannot understand, and you receive not that spirit, ye shall ask of the Father in the name of Jesus; and if he give not unto you that spirit, then you may know that it is not of God.

32 And it shall be given unto you, power over that spirit; and you shall proclaim against that spirit with a loud voice that it is not of God—

When you have accomplished these things then sure, kneel, seek the spirit and then let it guide your requests and you cannot go wrong. However, note this caution from D & C 19:8-10,20-22

D & C 19:8-10,20-22

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.

Some of these verses are just for context but 22 is the point. You can ask God for whatever you want. And keep asking and he will provide. Perhaps there is a manuscript you wish to show your wife - ask God if it is okay. No he says, well just ask again. Really? No again? Dog gone it! - pray again...yep, now that's what I'm talking about. Honey bunches, God said I can show you the manuscript. And then watch as the Lord delivers you up to the consequences of praying for the wrong things.

Verse 22 clearly speaks to the fact that there are mysteries as verse 8 indicates the Lord is teaching the brethren. However the Lord indicates in 22 that there are mysteries that if known too soon - "lest they perish". He calls this mystery a "mystery of Godliness" in verse 10 and in verse 9 says they are being instructed in this matter that they may "enter into his rest" which is scripture speak for calling and election. So this mystery which they must know to enter into his rest, he warns that others must not know "lest they perish".

You go ahead and let these voices push you to covet a promise for which you might best properly prepare for before seeking. Go ahead and keep pressing the Lord , even though at first you are not getting much of an answer, that's okay keep pressing and pushing, at some point dog gone it he is going to give you what you seek and then you and Martin Harris can laugh it up big time while you share remembrances of that time the Lord gave in to your "prayers".

Point is there is an order to the kingdom of God. If the spirit takes you there in your prayers then by all means seek answers to any question that seems directed. If it is concerning calling and election - great. However, if you let these men who darkeneth wisdom with out knowledge (Job 38:2) push you ahead of the guidance of the spirit then I suspect the Lord might be inclined to teach you a lesson or two. Be wise, not rash.

[Finrock]

I apologize. You're right, I assumed. At times, you have not been frank in what you believe. As a member of the Church, that testimony should be expected. Not having those testimonies is a red flag and of great concern. But it should not be a tool of judgement.

Jonesy1982

That is a beautifully crafted apology, that I do not think was completely grasped for what it said.

well done...

When you sincerely apologize, "you are ready to contribute peace to the world rather than add contention and negative feelings. You are willing to give up judging anyone unrighteously and to stop taking inventory of others’ lives and faults. You are ready to stop minimizing your own behavior or making excuses for it."

"The purpose [of an apology] is not to explain or describe your side of things. The purpose is to admit those wrongs you have committed, offer an apology, and make restitution wherever possible. Do not argue with people or criticize them..."

When you apologize you should do it "...in a spirit of humility, offering reconciliation, never justification."

I assume Jones1982 was being sincere and was providing a heartfelt apology.

If there was something more to be "grasped" other than a sincere apology for wrongs committed, then the "apology" didn't come from the Good Spirit and it wasn't an "apology" after all.

-Finrock

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/steps/9?lang=eng

[Finrock]

Apology accepted even though there is no need to apologize to me as far as I'm concerned. You aren't the first person to do this and I've come to expect such things. I can't tell you how many times I've had to pass someone's arbitrary "loyalty" test when in reality it is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

Please consider that testing someone's faith or a person's testimony or who they associate with does not give any merit or take away any merit from their ideas. It should not be a criteria for when we are communicating and sharing ideas. Each idea or thought ought to be examined as it stands on its own. "Who" shares an idea doesn't matter. Either ideas are true or they are false. An idea doesn't derive its truth value from the person speaking it.

Please allow me to get on a soapbox for the moment...

There is a right way and a wrong way to discuss and to consider ideas. I believe in the principles of critical thinking. I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ requires that I elevate my thinking above the common, therefore, I have tried to adopt certain critical thinking principles in my life. Even though me sharing this shouldn't matter to the ideas I share, I point this out because it is important to the overall quality of the types of discourse that takes place here. Please take some time to consider some key ideas to critical thinking which ought to guide how we think from the link provided below. I think if each of us adopted these universal principles of good thinking (which all align with the "Golden Rule") there would be far less contention and a whole lot more of edification, etc. If I may share a personal wish and desire of mine it is that I wish that there would be a place where individuals can discuss ideas, safely, without worrying about being attacked on a personal level, without being mocked, ridiculed, having their faith called in to question, or any of these other personal things. Let me be clear that I don't mean a place where individuals can say what they want and never be challenged, but that when they are challenged there will be no "ad hominem" components to the challenge. I understand why things are the way they are now and I accept it, but I don't like it and I wish things were different. I recognize that so much of how people think and what they believe is governed by their sociocentric and egocentric views and when these paradigms are challenged people feel threatened. But, we don't have to attack a person personally or use language to demean or to dress down people in order to disagree or to make a counter point. We ought to apply the principles of critical thinking in our reasoning and responses. Something else to consider, not as a means to condemn but as a means to identify, you can discern a lot as to where a person is spiritually and emotionally from the way they interact and treat other people, especially how they treat others they disagree with or who they might see as inferior to them.

So, here are ideas that I value highly and by which I try (and I readily admit I often fail at this) to govern my communications on this forum. Again, even though it shouldn't matter, it should give you some insight as to where I am coming from to some degree: http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/v ... traits/528

And, here are some universal intellectual standards that will help us to "reason together": http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/u ... ndards/527

Finally, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me or with any idea. You might find me pointing out personal attacks, defending others from personal attacks and even defending individuals from personal attacks when I don't agree with said individual's ideas. I don't like bullying and I don't like abusive behavior. Also, I readily admit that many of the ideas I share are unorthodox, however, that doesn't automatically make them wrong and it doesn't make me an apostate or an evil person. I don't accept all orthodoxy or all of what constitutes the typical "Mormon Paradigm". Some of my strengths in life are that I'm an open minded individual, I try to have intellectual empathy and humility, among other traits, and so I can consider an idea from the perspective of my "opponent". I am analytical and conscientious by nature. Of course I have weaknesses and flaws, but, the talents I do have I am grateful for and I don't apologize for any good quality or trait which I have, even when it makes me unpopular to some. I don't care about popularity either. I have no agenda and I'm not affiliated with any group, "apostate" or otherwise. In the end, I'm interested in pursuing truth and believing the truth, no matter what the implications are, no matter how hard it may be, no matter what the consequences are, no matter what.

-Finrock

There is nothing wrong with learning from others. However, it is important in spiritual matters. This is exactly how I got into my deception. I was listening to someone who was not sent, although claiming otherwise. If you are not a member of the church, you have no business preaching the gospel. Additionally, if you are missing fundamental parts of your testimony, that should be addressed first! Only elders and members of the church are charged with that calling.

Words of Joseph Smith:

Ye are not sent out to be taught but to teach4 let every man be sober be vigilent & let all his words be seasoned with grace5 & keep in mind that it is a day of warning & not of many words.6 Act honest before God & man beware of gentile sophestry such as bowing & scraping unto men in wholm you have no confidence be honest open & frank in all your intercourse with mankind

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10)

It does matter, believe it or not. You can even learn from the devil himself, but would you allow tutelage from the devil in your spiritual endeavors?

There is wisdom in this!

And what of the others, false teachers or otherwise? Remember, there is no such thing as righteous dissenting from the Lord's church. They should keep their mouths shut!

15 And it came to pass that after there had been false Christs, and their mouths had been shut, and they punished according to their crimes;
16 And after there had been false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and all these having been punished according to their crimes; and after there having been much contention and many dissensions away unto the Lamanites, behold, it came to pass that king Benjamin, with the assistance of the holy prophets who were among his people--(Words of Mormon 1:15-16)

I see. Honestly, this sounds like more justification for judging others and presuming to know their hearts and it seems like you missed the point. Well, in any case, I accept your apology and forgive you regardless of whether your apology was sincere or not. I hope you take the time to read and consider the rest of what I wrote so that you don't miss the point and can be benefited from principles that will lead you to do and to be good.

For what it's worth, I reject the spirit of totalitarianism and compulsion. I also reject dictatorial ideas and methods. I reject the idea that the ends justify the means. All of these ideas that I just named are anti-Christ and antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ and to His Church.

-Finrock

[Jonesy]

Finrock,

It was meant to be a genuine apology, promise. I didn't see it another way until brlenox pointed it out. It does seem to put some accountability on your part, but that wasn't my point.

You can call those methods whatever you like, but I spoke according to the law and the prophets. If anyone condemns, it's them. The purpose of what they are teaching is important. And we can see the relevance especially nowadays. Many members were taught good things, but all foundationaly wrong. It spread like wildfire, and now the unity in the church is breaking. The Book of Mormon shows many examples of trying to stop the continuation of false ideas.

[brlenox]

Finrock,

It was meant to be a genuine apology, promise. I didn't see it another way until brlenox pointed it out. It does seem to put some accountability on your part, but that wasn't my point.

You can call those methods whatever you like, but I spoke according to the law and the prophets. If anyone condemns, it's them. The purpose of what they are teaching is important. And we can see the relevance especially nowadays. Many members were taught good things, but all foundationaly wrong. It spread like wildfire, and now the unity in the church is breaking. The Book of Mormon shows many examples of trying to stop the continuation of false ideas.

In which case, I owe you an apology for insinuating that you might be a small a man as I am...ah well, misery loves company. /:)

[BackBlast]

There is nothing wrong with learning from others. However, it is important in spiritual matters. This is exactly how I got into my deception. I was listening to someone who was not sent, although claiming otherwise. If you are not a member of the church, you have no business preaching the gospel. Additionally, if you are missing fundamental parts of your testimony, that should be addressed first! Only elders and members of the church are charged with that calling.

I do not believe the line is so firm or in the location you think it is.

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

There are those weaving good in the world among every nation, kindred, tongue and people. We should not forbid them from pursuing their course. But perhaps we can add to their light and lift them up in our turn.

I hope that the deception you went through served your growth well. It is our own personal responsibility to find and learn truth. Trying to judge men and assign them reliability indexes based on our limited and superficial views of their state is a lot of effort for little gained. Information must still be evaluated if it comes from the President of the church or the inactive family down the street. The Spirit tells you what's important and what's not, and sometimes that is very very individualized.

[Jonesy]

There is nothing wrong with learning from others. However, it is important in spiritual matters. This is exactly how I got into my deception. I was listening to someone who was not sent, although claiming otherwise. If you are not a member of the church, you have no business preaching the gospel. Additionally, if you are missing fundamental parts of your testimony, that should be addressed first! Only elders and members of the church are charged with that calling.

I do not believe the line is so firm or in the location you think it is.

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

There are those weaving good in the world among every nation, kindred, tongue and people. We should not forbid them from pursuing their course. But perhaps we can add to their light and lift them up in our turn.

I hope that the deception you went through served your growth well. It is our own personal responsibility to find and learn truth. Trying to judge men and assign them reliability indexes based on our limited and superficial views of their state is a lot of effort for little gained. Information must still be evaluated if it comes from the President of the church or the inactive family down the street. The Spirit tells you what's important and what's not, and sometimes that is very very individualized.

That's fine. But the Spirit will not teach you to leave the church, that it doesn't have the keys, or only part. Nothing wrong with stopping false doctrine that pertains to fundamental principles.

[BackBlast]

Nothing wrong with stopping false doctrine that pertains to fundamental principles.

I would agree with this statement generally, in the context of this thread I have to wonder by what means you intend to stop false doctrine. The ideas you brought up were not a subject here except by association and a means of passing judgement on people. This statement here doesn't provide me with any confidence that you understand why it's incorrect to do that.

[Jonesy]

Nothing wrong with stopping false doctrine that pertains to fundamental principles.

I would agree with this statement generally, in the context of this thread I have to wonder by what means you intend to stop false doctrine. The ideas you brought up were not a subject here except by association and a means of passing judgement on people. This statement here doesn't provide me with any confidence that you understand why it's incorrect to do that.

Sounds like I'm the one having judgement passed on me. I think those were perfect examples of what we can expect as members of the church. If you read the entire thread, I think it definitely comes into context. I said before that it should not be a tool of judgement. But you're right, I can't stop the false doctrines. But I can warn, encourage, teach correct doctrine.

[BackBlast]

Nothing wrong with stopping false doctrine that pertains to fundamental principles.

I would agree with this statement generally, in the context of this thread I have to wonder by what means you intend to stop false doctrine. The ideas you brought up were not a subject here except by association and a means of passing judgement on people. This statement here doesn't provide me with any confidence that you understand why it's incorrect to do that.

Sounds like I'm the one having judgement passed on me. I think those were perfect examples of what we can expect as members of the church. If you read the entire thread, I think it definitely comes into context. I said before that it should not be a tool of judgement. But you're right, I can't stop the false doctrines. But I can warn, encourage, teach correct doctrine.

There is a difference between passing judgement on you and your method. Your method became the topic on this tangent, not your personal standing, righteousness, etc. I have called it incorrect and I've attempted to demonstrate why with logic and reason. By my statement here I am declaring my belief in my failure to communicate the point. You insist on couching your understanding in terms that don't really fit the recent topic while they sound very correct generally. That's great you want to teach correct doctrine. I just don't understand what that means to you in terms of disqualifying teachers of ideas, or ideas wholesale, based upon their understanding of your guide posts.

If you can show where I am actually judging you as a person I would be glad to review my behavior and look for items that need correcting. I try really hard to not make the people with whom I am speaking the topic instead of the idea at hand. Their methods, yes, occasionally. As a people we are trained in all the arts of deceitful discussion and emotional manipulation by skilled professional efforts in the media and it is a difficult think to shake.

[Jonesy]

The ideas you brought up were not a subject here except by association and a means of passing judgement on people.

There is a difference between passing judgement on you and your method. Your method became the topic on this tangent, not your personal standing, righteousness, etc. I have called it incorrect and I've attempted to demonstrate why with logic and reason. By my statement here I am declaring my belief in my failure to communicate the point. You insist on couching your understanding in terms that don't really fit the recent topic while they sound very correct generally. That's great you want to teach correct doctrine. I just don't understand what that means to you in terms of disqualifying teachers of ideas, or ideas wholesale, based upon their understanding of your guide posts.

If you can show where I am actually judging you as a person I would be glad to review my behavior and look for items that need correcting. I try really hard to not make the people with whom I am speaking the topic instead of the idea at hand. Their methods, yes, occasionally. As a people we are trained in all the arts of deceitful discussion and emotional manipulation by skilled professional efforts in the media and it is a difficult think to shake.

The top quote there. You're using the same method against me that I use to discern. But I'm not judging the individual. That's where you err. I'm not judging their character, I don't think they're evil, I don't judge their heart.

It's like saying, "hey, that guy punched that other guy in the face, that ain't right!" Only I'm saying, "hey, that guy erres in fundamental doctrine or discernment, that ain't right!"

[AI2.0]

Maybe this seems like an arrogant statement, but it is true that these beliefs will set up anyone to be a false teacher and on the road to deception. You can teach truth all day, but eventually the lack of testimony of this being the Lord's church and of its appointed leaders are deceived in this matter. I think this will eventually become more apparent and manifested as we move along, as has been shown with the failure of the Denver Snuffer movement.

The trouble is that there are many here who won't accept truth if it comes from one whom they believe is... tainted. Often even when an unassociated person says the same things. They end up judging a person instead of an idea on it's own merits. Since we are being blunt, it's essentially name-calling.

Are you saying that we should accept what others claim as 'truth' even if those 'others' are a tainted source? Frankly, if something comes from a 'tainted' source, then I'm going to be concerned that it isn't actually 'truth' which is being shared.

If an 'unassociated' person shares the same false teachings, taught by dissidents of the church, they should still be rejected, don't you think? I think so. I think it doesn't matter who teaches it--if it's false, if it is contrary to LDS doctrine, it should be pointed out that it is false...if possible in a kind way, but it ought to be pointed out, never the less.

This is a problem we run into often on this forum. If I disagree with a teaching or a belief that is being put forward, some people accuse me of 'mocking', 'belittling' and 'name calling' when all I've done is disagree.

Amonhi and Denver Snuffer are both guilty of putting forward false teachings (if you read much of their stuff, you'll know this)--as far as our LDS doctrine is concerned. If this was a non-denominational board where anything goes, then it would be fine, members could speculate all they want and promote whatever teachings they feel like, but this is an LDS forum and so, I think we are within our rights to point out when someone is promoting a teaching which is not LDS doctrine. If you think that's being judgmental, I'm sorry--I disagree.

[brlenox]

There is nothing wrong with learning from others. However, it is important in spiritual matters. This is exactly how I got into my deception. I was listening to someone who was not sent, although claiming otherwise. If you are not a member of the church, you have no business preaching the gospel. Additionally, if you are missing fundamental parts of your testimony, that should be addressed first! Only elders and members of the church are charged with that calling.

Trying to judge men and assign them reliability indexes based on our limited and superficial views of their state is a lot of effort for little gained. Information must still be evaluated if it comes from the President of the church or the inactive family down the street. The Spirit tells you what's important and what's not, and sometimes that is very very individualized.

Slowly but surely dialogue always begins to reveal a person's heart.

Perhaps 8 or 9 years ago, I found a document online that was written by one of the Skousan brothers. It was concerning the temple and contained what he claimed were the insights of an angelic visitor who revealed to him the remarkable symbolism's and secrets of the temple. I recall at some point finding that he had been excommunicated for this text. That is perhaps a complete story or not, I cannot say. I am driven to understand things completely and fully and correctly and often go to great lengths to procure material that will teach me. I have purchased expensive books for a paragraph that I had found was supposed to be in the book just so I could put it back into context and glean the authors full intent and I am not a person of means.

Finally, I found a copy of the Skousan temple text 1 and 2. I opened to the first section and began to read and found a pearl of wisdom that I knew was true and for a moment I was very excited. However, I closed the book and decided to pray concerning its contents that I might have the spirit continue with me as I studied this text of potential. I could not get an authorization to continue and instead in a sentence that is as clear to me now as then a voice in my head said, "I have never ordained for my gospel to be taught by apostates." I learned in that moment that an apostate, should never be given an instructive place of significance in anyone's life. While there may be found nuggets of truth, the source is tainted and that taint can creep carefully past all of a persons spiritual defenses. I never read the text as I took from the instruction an implied promise, that if I let Him the Lord would teach me correct understandings. I have been richly blessed in this sense.

One message is critical above all in the process of being led down the path out of the church. It is a process whereby they seek to undermine the voices that the Savior provides to protect his children that are wise. Invariably they will attempt to weaken the confidence, of the people they instruct, in the Leaders of the Church. They will also begin to insert wedges between you and those that are close to you who might be able to sway you back to the path. They always speak to the spirits guidance as supreme as if it is a competition. However the Lord knowing the weaknesses of men and the subtleties of Satan's efforts, did not provide a single supreme tool to guide us as if the spirit is the single most priority. HE gave us three supreme ways to validate the information that may enter into our hearts and minds. He gave us standard bearers in the apostles and prophets of this dispensation and thousands of pages of their inspired writings. He also gave us scriptures which provide incredible insights and direction and he also provided the Holy Ghost, that will never overturn the truths of the other two sources but will instead confirm what is right.

3 Tools to protect you 3 ways to confirm truth. In surveying one of the tools to pinpointing an accurate location is the concept of triangulation. When you can find three measurements around a point by triangulation you can with precision know where the point of interest is located. The Lord has provided 3 spirituals points to measure all spiritual matters by - 1.) The Holy Ghost, 2.) the apostles and prophets, 3.) the scriptures. Triangulate using these three tools and you always go right. Anyone who tries to teach doubt in any of these three things is at risk of error.

[Finrock]

There is nothing wrong with learning from others. However, it is important in spiritual matters. This is exactly how I got into my deception. I was listening to someone who was not sent, although claiming otherwise. If you are not a member of the church, you have no business preaching the gospel. Additionally, if you are missing fundamental parts of your testimony, that should be addressed first! Only elders and members of the church are charged with that calling.

Trying to judge men and assign them reliability indexes based on our limited and superficial views of their state is a lot of effort for little gained. Information must still be evaluated if it comes from the President of the church or the inactive family down the street. The Spirit tells you what's important and what's not, and sometimes that is very very individualized.

Slowly but surely dialogue always begins to reveal a person's heart.

Perhaps 8 or 9 years ago, I found a document online that was written by one of the Skousan brothers. It was concerning the temple and contained what he claimed were the insights of an angelic visitor who revealed to him the remarkable symbolism's and secrets of the temple. I recall at some point finding that he had been excommunicated for this text. That is perhaps a complete story or not, I cannot say. I am driven to understand things completely and fully and correctly and often go to great lengths to procure material that will teach me. I have purchased expensive books for a paragraph that I had found was supposed to be in the book just so I could put it back into context and glean the authors full intent and I am not a person of means.

Finally, I found a copy of the Skousan temple text 1 and 2. I opened to the first section and began to read and found a pearl of wisdom that I knew was true and for a moment I was very excited. However, I closed the book and decided to pray concerning its contents that I might have the spirit continue with me as I studied this text of potential. I could not get an authorization to continue and instead in a sentence that is as clear to me now as then a voice in my head said, "I have never ordained for my gospel to be taught by apostates." I learned in that moment that an apostate, should never be given an instructive place of significance in anyone's life. While there may be found nuggets of truth, the source is tainted and that taint can creep carefully past all of a persons spiritual defenses. I never read the text as I took from the instruction an implied promise, that if I let Him the Lord would teach me correct understandings. I have been richly blessed in this sense.

One message is critical above all in the process of being led down the path out of the church. It is a process whereby they seek to undermine the voices that the Savior provides to protect his children that are wise. Invariably they will attempt to weaken the confidence, of the people they instruct, in the Leaders of the Church. They will also begin to insert wedges between you and those that are close to you who might be able to sway you back to the path. They always speak to the spirits guidance as supreme as if it is a competition. However the Lord knowing the weaknesses of men and the subtleties of Satan's efforts, did not provide a single supreme tool to guide us as if the spirit is the single most priority. HE gave us three supreme ways to validate the information that may enter into our hearts and minds. He gave us standard bearers in the apostles and prophets of this dispensation and thousands of pages of their inspired writings. He also gave us scriptures which provide incredible insights and direction and he also provided the Holy Ghost, that will never overturn the truths of the other two sources but will instead confirm what is right.

3 Tools to protect you 3 ways to confirm truth. In surveying one of the tools to pinpointing an accurate location is the concept of triangulation. When you can find three measurements around a point by triangulation you can with precision know where the point of interest is located. The Lord has provided 3 spirituals points to measure all spiritual matters by - 1.) The Holy Ghost, 2.) the apostles and prophets, 3.) the scriptures. Triangulate using these three tools and you always go right. Anyone who tries to teach doubt in any of these three things is at risk of error.

“If there is one message I have repeated to my brethren of the Twelve, it is that it’s the Spirit that counts. It is the Spirit that matters. I do not know how often I have said this, but I never tire of saying it—it is the Spirit that matters most” (mission presidents’ seminar, 3 Apr. 1985).

-Finrock

[Jonesy]

There is nothing wrong with learning from others. However, it is important in spiritual matters. This is exactly how I got into my deception. I was listening to someone who was not sent, although claiming otherwise. If you are not a member of the church, you have no business preaching the gospel. Additionally, if you are missing fundamental parts of your testimony, that should be addressed first! Only elders and members of the church are charged with that calling.

Trying to judge men and assign them reliability indexes based on our limited and superficial views of their state is a lot of effort for little gained. Information must still be evaluated if it comes from the President of the church or the inactive family down the street. The Spirit tells you what's important and what's not, and sometimes that is very very individualized.

Slowly but surely dialogue always begins to reveal a person's heart.

Perhaps 8 or 9 years ago, I found a document online that was written by one of the Skousan brothers. It was concerning the temple and contained what he claimed were the insights of an angelic visitor who revealed to him the remarkable symbolism's and secrets of the temple. I recall at some point finding that he had been excommunicated for this text. That is perhaps a complete story or not, I cannot say. I am driven to understand things completely and fully and correctly and often go to great lengths to procure material that will teach me. I have purchased expensive books for a paragraph that I had found was supposed to be in the book just so I could put it back into context and glean the authors full intent and I am not a person of means.

Finally, I found a copy of the Skousan temple text 1 and 2. I opened to the first section and began to read and found a pearl of wisdom that I knew was true and for a moment I was very excited. However, I closed the book and decided to pray concerning its contents that I might have the spirit continue with me as I studied this text of potential. I could not get an authorization to continue and instead in a sentence that is as clear to me now as then a voice in my head said, "I have never ordained for my gospel to be taught by apostates." I learned in that moment that an apostate, should never be given an instructive place of significance in anyone's life. While there may be found nuggets of truth, the source is tainted and that taint can creep carefully past all of a persons spiritual defenses. I never read the text as I took from the instruction an implied promise, that if I let Him the Lord would teach me correct understandings. I have been richly blessed in this sense.

One message is critical above all in the process of being led down the path out of the church. It is a process whereby they seek to undermine the voices that the Savior provides to protect his children that are wise. Invariably they will attempt to weaken the confidence, of the people they instruct, in the Leaders of the Church. They will also begin to insert wedges between you and those that are close to you who might be able to sway you back to the path. They always speak to the spirits guidance as supreme as if it is a competition. However the Lord knowing the weaknesses of men and the subtleties of Satan's efforts, did not provide a single supreme tool to guide us as if the spirit is the single most priority. HE gave us three supreme ways to validate the information that may enter into our hearts and minds. He gave us standard bearers in the apostles and prophets of this dispensation and thousands of pages of their inspired writings. He also gave us scriptures which provide incredible insights and direction and he also provided the Holy Ghost, that will never overturn the truths of the other two sources but will instead confirm what is right.

3 Tools to protect you 3 ways to confirm truth. In surveying one of the tools to pinpointing an accurate location is the concept of triangulation. When you can find three measurements around a point by triangulation you can with precision know where the point of interest is located. The Lord has provided 3 spirituals points to measure all spiritual matters by - 1.) The Holy Ghost, 2.) the apostles and prophets, 3.) the scriptures. Triangulate using these three tools and you always go right. Anyone who tries to teach doubt in any of these three things is at risk of error.

“If there is one message I have repeated to my brethren of the Twelve, it is that it’s the Spirit that counts. It is the Spirit that matters. I do not know how often I have said this, but I never tire of saying it—it is the Spirit that matters most” (mission presidents’ seminar, 3 Apr. 1985).

-Finrock

Helps to make sure it's the right spirit...

[Finrock]

Trying to judge men and assign them reliability indexes based on our limited and superficial views of their state is a lot of effort for little gained. Information must still be evaluated if it comes from the President of the church or the inactive family down the street. The Spirit tells you what's important and what's not, and sometimes that is very very individualized.

Slowly but surely dialogue always begins to reveal a person's heart.

Perhaps 8 or 9 years ago, I found a document online that was written by one of the Skousan brothers. It was concerning the temple and contained what he claimed were the insights of an angelic visitor who revealed to him the remarkable symbolism's and secrets of the temple. I recall at some point finding that he had been excommunicated for this text. That is perhaps a complete story or not, I cannot say. I am driven to understand things completely and fully and correctly and often go to great lengths to procure material that will teach me. I have purchased expensive books for a paragraph that I had found was supposed to be in the book just so I could put it back into context and glean the authors full intent and I am not a person of means.

Finally, I found a copy of the Skousan temple text 1 and 2. I opened to the first section and began to read and found a pearl of wisdom that I knew was true and for a moment I was very excited. However, I closed the book and decided to pray concerning its contents that I might have the spirit continue with me as I studied this text of potential. I could not get an authorization to continue and instead in a sentence that is as clear to me now as then a voice in my head said, "I have never ordained for my gospel to be taught by apostates." I learned in that moment that an apostate, should never be given an instructive place of significance in anyone's life. While there may be found nuggets of truth, the source is tainted and that taint can creep carefully past all of a persons spiritual defenses. I never read the text as I took from the instruction an implied promise, that if I let Him the Lord would teach me correct understandings. I have been richly blessed in this sense.

One message is critical above all in the process of being led down the path out of the church. It is a process whereby they seek to undermine the voices that the Savior provides to protect his children that are wise. Invariably they will attempt to weaken the confidence, of the people they instruct, in the Leaders of the Church. They will also begin to insert wedges between you and those that are close to you who might be able to sway you back to the path. They always speak to the spirits guidance as supreme as if it is a competition. However the Lord knowing the weaknesses of men and the subtleties of Satan's efforts, did not provide a single supreme tool to guide us as if the spirit is the single most priority. HE gave us three supreme ways to validate the information that may enter into our hearts and minds. He gave us standard bearers in the apostles and prophets of this dispensation and thousands of pages of their inspired writings. He also gave us scriptures which provide incredible insights and direction and he also provided the Holy Ghost, that will never overturn the truths of the other two sources but will instead confirm what is right.

3 Tools to protect you 3 ways to confirm truth. In surveying one of the tools to pinpointing an accurate location is the concept of triangulation. When you can find three measurements around a point by triangulation you can with precision know where the point of interest is located. The Lord has provided 3 spirituals points to measure all spiritual matters by - 1.) The Holy Ghost, 2.) the apostles and prophets, 3.) the scriptures. Triangulate using these three tools and you always go right. Anyone who tries to teach doubt in any of these three things is at risk of error.

“If there is one message I have repeated to my brethren of the Twelve, it is that it’s the Spirit that counts. It is the Spirit that matters. I do not know how often I have said this, but I never tire of saying it—it is the Spirit that matters most” (mission presidents’ seminar, 3 Apr. 1985).

-Finrock

Helps to make sure it's the right spirit...

Amen. Look in the mirror everyday and worry about what spirit you are following. We don't generally receive revelation about other people's hearts, especially outside of our stewardship. Next time you feel the urge to accuse someone of being an apostate or to attack another person's character, saying they are this or that or what not, double check what spirit you are listening to and if its the good spirit, make sure you know which person your "revelation" is directed at.

-Finrock

[Jonesy]

Finrock, tried to PM you, but looks like it's not going through.

I never once received revelation about you, let alone your heart. I never attacked your character. I don't think you're evil. I did assume wrong about what you believe, and I apologized when you claimed otherwise.

The last comment I made was meaning that the spirit we receive should be discerned. It was not a diss at you.

Regardless, I think think you're a great person with a great heart. More than I can say of myself. I perceive that you are very dedicated in your pursuit to find truth. I will lay off, though. I am very sorry that I pressed too much.

[brlenox]

“If there is one message I have repeated to my brethren of the Twelve, it is that it’s the Spirit that counts. It is the Spirit that matters. I do not know how often I have said this, but I never tire of saying it—it is the Spirit that matters most” (mission presidents’ seminar, 3 Apr. 1985).

-Finrock

Finrock, I don't engage you often because of your deceptive practices. However, I will venture a note on this one. Here is another quote for you and golly - it is Ezra Taft Benson again:

My dear brethren, this is an answer to the great challenge of our time. The word of God, as found in the scriptures, in the words of living prophets, and in personal revelation, has the power to fortify the Saints and arm them with the Spirit so they can resist evil, hold fast to the good, and find joy in this life.(The Power of the Word, Ezra Taft Benson, 1986.President of the Church)

You might think I actually understood exactly what he means above when I wrote my post?

If we take your quote and put it back in context however, which is a little difficult as I could not find the entirety of the talk it was from. However, it is clear he was in a discussion with Mission Presidents, people who guide missionaries, people who try to understand where to place missionaries, and who to place them with etc. It was used another time in a talk discussing when Apostles select new state presidents.

Although, for the most part, almost universally this quote is used in the context of missionary work. And I suspect that may even make sense to you. I'm tracting in my little community, and I need to know where to go next. My companion and I kneel down to pray. Do you suspicion their cell phone is going to ring and it is the prophet to guide them. Probably not. Maybe the spirit whispers turn to John 6 verse 66-70 and the scriptures state:

John 6:66 - 70

66 lo an behold, take a left at the next corner, go four blocks,
67 watch out for the low hanging branch on the Oak tree,
68 go past the long row of lillies, who neither toil nor labor to look so doggone pretty,
69 on the left hand side is a small cottage. Stop there.
70 Golden, that's all I've got to Say...Golden.

No, I just looked and there is not even a John 6:66 - must not have been the right spirit.

However, I assure you that when the spirit guides you to those investigators it will be the words of the prophets and the scriptures that will be the foundations upon which the spirit will predicate it's influence upon the hearts of those investigators to bear the fruit God seeks.

However, there are significant occasions when one tool excels for a specific usage and in the case of calling new Stake Presidents something that members of the twelve are engaged in form time to time, Making missionary companion assignments or missionary moves assignments and even tracking down investigators the spirit is a unique and invaluable tool and generally the individual tool that excels. In the case of major portions of missionary work or calling stake presidents, it is the spirit that matters.

However, we do not do a lot of tracking here on LDSFF, we do not call stake presidents, or even nursery leaders. We discuss doctrine. We discuss interpretations of doctrine, some false, some correct. And it is individuals such as yourself who have created agenda's of emphasis on the guidance of the spirit even when it disagrees with scripture, even when it disagrees with prophets, even when people like myself and others can illustrate with clarity using those tools of prophets, scriptures, that you are so wrong as to make reason stare. Its people like you with your lopsided references to quotes concerning missionary work and applying them as if they are universal and singularly correct that are extremely prone to error.

I stand by my comments as they apply to the venue to which I am speaking. I can stand by them because I understand what Ezra Taft Benson meant in both instances - your quote and mine.

[Finrock]

“If there is one message I have repeated to my brethren of the Twelve, it is that it’s the Spirit that counts. It is the Spirit that matters. I do not know how often I have said this, but I never tire of saying it—it is the Spirit that matters most” (mission presidents’ seminar, 3 Apr. 1985).

-Finrock

Finrock, I don't engage you often because of your deceptive practices. However, I will venture a note on this one. Here is another quote for you and golly - it is Ezra Taft Benson again:

My dear brethren, this is an answer to the great challenge of our time. The word of God, as found in the scriptures, in the words of living prophets, and in personal revelation, has the power to fortify the Saints and arm them with the Spirit so they can resist evil, hold fast to the good, and find joy in this life.(The Power of the Word, Ezra Taft Benson, 1986.President of the Church)

You might think I actually understood exactly what he means above when I wrote my post?

If we take your quote and put it back in context however, which is a little difficult as I could not find the entirety of the talk it was from. However, it is clear he was in a discussion with Mission Presidents, people who guide missionaries, people who try to understand where to place missionaries, and who to place them with etc. It was used another time in a talk discussing when Apostles select new state presidents.

Although, for the most part, almost universally this quote is used in the context of missionary work. And I suspect that may even make sense to you. I'm tracting in my little community, and I need to know where to go next. My companion and I kneel down to pray. Do you suspicion their cell phone is going to ring and it is the prophet to guide them. Probably not. Maybe the spirit whispers turn to John 6 verse 66-70 and the scriptures state:

John 6:66 - 70

66 lo an behold, take a left at the next corner, go four blocks,
67 watch out for the low hanging branch on the Oak tree,
68 go past the long row of lillies, who neither toil nor labor to look so doggone pretty,
69 on the left hand side is a small cottage. Stop there.
70 Golden, that's all I've got to Say...Golden.

No, I just looked and there is not even a John 6:66 - must not have been the right spirit.

However, I assure you that when the spirit guides you to those investigators it will be the words of the prophets and the scriptures that will be the foundations upon which the spirit will predicate it's influence upon the hearts of those investigators to bear the fruit God seeks.

However, there are significant occasions when one tool excels for a specific usage and in the case of calling new Stake Presidents something that members of the twelve are engaged in form time to time, Making missionary companion assignments or missionary moves assignments and even tracking down investigators the spirit is a unique and invaluable tool and generally the individual tool that excels. In the case of major portions of missionary work or calling stake presidents, it is the spirit that matters.

However, we do not do a lot of tracking here on LDSFF, we do not call stake presidents, or even nursery leaders. We discuss doctrine. We discuss interpretations of doctrine, some false, some correct. And it is individuals such as yourself who have created agenda's of emphasis on the guidance of the spirit even when it disagrees with scripture, even when it disagrees with prophets, even when people like myself and others can illustrate with clarity using those tools of prophets, scriptures, that you are so wrong as to make reason stare. Its people like you with your lopsided references to quotes concerning missionary work and applying them as if they are universal and singularly correct that are extremely prone to error.

I stand by my comments as they apply to the venue to which I am speaking. I can stand by them because I understand what Ezra Taft Benson meant in both instances - your quote and mine.

Brlenox,

Part One (Part Two to follow):

Your continued attempts to invalidate my words which disagree with your ideas by attacking my character and going after me personally demonstrates the very principle being addressed in the last few posts by Backblast and myself. You should know that accusing me, calling me names (fink, for instance), disparaging my intelligence, and every other such tactic only reveals what is in your heart and in your mind, and it speaks to me none at all. I see you as a brother and I carefully consider your posts even when I think you are wrong. And, understand that I am not offended by your continued attacks against me because I believe I understand where you are at and where you are coming from. At any time I'm ready to move on and to have a sincere discussion with you. But, I point these ad hominems out with the hopes that you will stop wasting so much energy and time on something so fruitless when there are so many other ways to use that energy so as to promote what is good and right. I invite you to drop all ad hominems of every sort from your communications from here on out and to approach discussions in sincerity and with mutual respect and to deal with the content and substance of what has been said. Judge the words based on the merits of the words alone. Treat your brothers and sister fairly. Consider that you probably don't know the heart and the intent of those with whom you speak. Consider that all people make mistakes, yourself included. Believe the best of those whom you are addressing. The spirit of contention does not need to exist and we don't have to agree with one another in order to understand one another. This post will be my last time addressing these things. From here on out I'm going to allow you to say whatever you want about me, make any accusation against me that you wish, call me any name that you want, imply that I'm inferior, not intelligent enough to understand your posts, and/or make whatever personal jab or attack against me that you desire and I'm going to simply focus on whatever portion of your posts have substance. I might still call you out in the defense of others, but, I don't care what you think about me personally, etc. :p

-Finrock

[Finrock]

“If there is one message I have repeated to my brethren of the Twelve, it is that it’s the Spirit that counts. It is the Spirit that matters. I do not know how often I have said this, but I never tire of saying it—it is the Spirit that matters most” (mission presidents’ seminar, 3 Apr. 1985).

-Finrock

Finrock, I don't engage you often because of your deceptive practices. However, I will venture a note on this one. Here is another quote for you and golly - it is Ezra Taft Benson again:

My dear brethren, this is an answer to the great challenge of our time. The word of God, as found in the scriptures, in the words of living prophets, and in personal revelation, has the power to fortify the Saints and arm them with the Spirit so they can resist evil, hold fast to the good, and find joy in this life.(The Power of the Word, Ezra Taft Benson, 1986.President of the Church)

You might think I actually understood exactly what he means above when I wrote my post?

If we take your quote and put it back in context however, which is a little difficult as I could not find the entirety of the talk it was from. However, it is clear he was in a discussion with Mission Presidents, people who guide missionaries, people who try to understand where to place missionaries, and who to place them with etc. It was used another time in a talk discussing when Apostles select new state presidents.

Although, for the most part, almost universally this quote is used in the context of missionary work. And I suspect that may even make sense to you. I'm tracting in my little community, and I need to know where to go next. My companion and I kneel down to pray. Do you suspicion their cell phone is going to ring and it is the prophet to guide them. Probably not. Maybe the spirit whispers turn to John 6 verse 66-70 and the scriptures state:

John 6:66 - 70

66 lo an behold, take a left at the next corner, go four blocks,
67 watch out for the low hanging branch on the Oak tree,
68 go past the long row of lillies, who neither toil nor labor to look so doggone pretty,
69 on the left hand side is a small cottage. Stop there.
70 Golden, that's all I've got to Say...Golden.

No, I just looked and there is not even a John 6:66 - must not have been the right spirit.

However, I assure you that when the spirit guides you to those investigators it will be the words of the prophets and the scriptures that will be the foundations upon which the spirit will predicate it's influence upon the hearts of those investigators to bear the fruit God seeks.

However, there are significant occasions when one tool excels for a specific usage and in the case of calling new Stake Presidents something that members of the twelve are engaged in form time to time, Making missionary companion assignments or missionary moves assignments and even tracking down investigators the spirit is a unique and invaluable tool and generally the individual tool that excels. In the case of major portions of missionary work or calling stake presidents, it is the spirit that matters.

However, we do not do a lot of tracking here on LDSFF, we do not call stake presidents, or even nursery leaders. We discuss doctrine. We discuss interpretations of doctrine, some false, some correct. And it is individuals such as yourself who have created agenda's of emphasis on the guidance of the spirit even when it disagrees with scripture, even when it disagrees with prophets, even when people like myself and others can illustrate with clarity using those tools of prophets, scriptures, that you are so wrong as to make reason stare. Its people like you with your lopsided references to quotes concerning missionary work and applying them as if they are universal and singularly correct that are extremely prone to error.

I stand by my comments as they apply to the venue to which I am speaking. I can stand by them because I understand what Ezra Taft Benson meant in both instances - your quote and mine.

Brlenox,

Part Two:

So, on to the substance...

I understand what Ezra Taft Benson said too. He said exactly what he meant, which is that the Spirit matters most. And, in fact it does, not just when making callings or doing missionary work, but, in all situations having to do with the gospel or in life. Not to mention that there isn't any aspect of the gospel of Jesus Christ that isn't in some way, shape, or form, "missionary work". In other words, even if we limit Ezra Taft Benson's words to missionary work, we are still encompassing the whole of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

First, I'll tell you the parts that I agree with. I agree that scriptures are very important. They are the standards by which we can measure what others have said, including prophets. The Standard Works have been sustained by the body of the Church as being words that are inspired by the Holy Ghost. I also agree that the words of the prophets and the apostles are important as well. But, all of these things are governed by one overriding principle or idea. Even your other quote by Benson had at its core the obtaining of the Spirit.

What are scriptures?

"Latter-day revelation identifies scripture as that which is spoken under the influence of the Holy Ghost" (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/scrip ... g&letter=S).

When is a "prophet" a prophet?

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.” President Clark, quoted earlier, observed:

“To this point runs a simple story my father told me as a boy, I do not know on what authority, but it illustrates the point. His story was that during the excitement incident to the coming of [Johnston’s] Army, Brother Brigham preached to the people in a morning meeting a sermon vibrant with defiance to the approaching army, and declaring an intention to oppose and drive them back. In the afternoon meeting he arose and said that Brigham Young had been talking in the morning, but the Lord was going to talk now. He then delivered an address, the tempo of which was the opposite from the morning talk. …

“… The Church will know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the body of the members, whether the brethren in voicing their views are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’; and in due time that knowledge will be made manifest.” (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... t?lang=eng)

See also D&C 68:1-4.

How do we best understand the Standard Works or the Scriptures?

In the final analysis there is no way, absolutely none, to understand any scripture except to have the same spirit of prophecy that rested upon the one who uttered the truth in its original form. Scripture comes from God by the power of the Holy Ghost. It does not originate with man. It means only what the Holy Ghost thinks it means. To interpret it, we must be enlightened by the power of the Holy Spirit. (2 Pet. 1:20–21.) It takes a prophet to understand a prophet, and every faithful member of the Church should have “the testimony of Jesus” which “is the spirit of prophecy.” (emphasis added: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/10/ten- ... h?lang=eng)

Whether we are reading scriptures or listening to a prophet, the Holy Spirit matters most. All scripture comes from the Holy Ghost. All prophets are only prophets when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. To understand ANY scripture the way it was intended to be understood requires that one has the Holy Ghost.

Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost.

The Spirit Matters Most.

-Finrock

[brlenox]

Brlenox,

Part One (Part Two to follow):

Your continued attempts to invalidate my words which disagree with your ideas by attacking my character and going after me personally demonstrates the very principle being addressed in the last few posts by Backblast and myself. You should know that accusing me, calling me names (fink, for instance), disparaging my intelligence, and every other such tactic only reveals what is in your heart and in your mind, and it speaks to me none at all. I see you as a brother and I carefully consider your posts even when I think you are wrong. And, understand that I am not offended by your continued attacks against me because I believe I understand where you are at and where you are coming from. At any time I'm ready to move on and to have a sincere discussion with you. But, I point these ad hominems out with the hopes that you will stop wasting so much energy and time on something so fruitless when there are so many other ways to use that energy so as to promote what is good and right. I invite you to drop all ad hominems of every sort from your communications from here on out and to approach discussions in sincerity and with mutual respect and to deal with the content and substance of what has been said. Judge the words based on the merits of the words alone. Treat your brothers and sister fairly. Consider that you probably don't know the heart and the intent of those with whom you speak. Consider that all people make mistakes, yourself included. Believe the best of those whom you are addressing. The spirit of contention does not need to exist and we don't have to agree with one another in order to understand one another. This post will be my last time addressing these things. From here on out I'm going to allow you to say whatever you want about me, make any accusation against me that you wish, call me any name that you want, imply that I'm inferior, not intelligent enough to understand your posts, and/or make whatever personal jab or attack against me that you desire and I'm going to simply focus on whatever portion of your posts have substance. I might still call you out in the defense of others, but, I don't care what you think about me personally, etc. :p

-Finrock

And I invite you to reread several of your own long diatribes addressed to virtually any person that ever calls into question your methods wherein you harp on integrity and intellectual honesty and take your own words to heart and begin to operate with such. Your character is the issue of why I seldom engage you and that sentence was only to provide you with understanding of why I do not often respond to your posts. I did not magnify that one observation to the point of ad hominem but left it as a singular observation while I discussed the substance of my observation.

[brlenox]

“If there is one message I have repeated to my brethren of the Twelve, it is that it’s the Spirit that counts. It is the Spirit that matters. I do not know how often I have said this, but I never tire of saying it—it is the Spirit that matters most” (mission presidents’ seminar, 3 Apr. 1985).

-Finrock

Finrock, I don't engage you often because of your deceptive practices. However, I will venture a note on this one. Here is another quote for you and golly - it is Ezra Taft Benson again:

My dear brethren, this is an answer to the great challenge of our time. The word of God, as found in the scriptures, in the words of living prophets, and in personal revelation, has the power to fortify the Saints and arm them with the Spirit so they can resist evil, hold fast to the good, and find joy in this life.(The Power of the Word, Ezra Taft Benson, 1986.President of the Church)

You might think I actually understood exactly what he means above when I wrote my post?

Whether we are reading scriptures or listening to a prophet, the Holy Spirit matters most. All scripture comes from the Holy Ghost. All prophets are only prophets when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. To understand ANY scripture the way it was intended to be understood requires that one has the Holy Ghost.

Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost.

The Spirit Matters Most.

-Finrock
[/quote]

Back down the rabbit hole with Finrock...You simply are not listening to Ezra Taft Benson or to myself. On the occasion he made the statement that I used he had an intent in mind. He was not trying to undermine other comments that he had made previously but for the purpose and intent of his message at that moment he was speaking to the value of the Three means upon which we as children of our Father in Heaven can avoid deception and being misled. That is a common concern I have on LDSFF. I write about it virtually every time I engage those who claim "Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost, in one form or another. Case in point from our last discussion, Did the Holy Ghost teach you this as highlighted in Blue?

D&C 137 plainly and simply says that Alvin was saved in the celestial kingdom without having been baptized for the remission of sins and it plainly and simply states that all people who have died or will die without having knowledge of the gospel but who would have accepted it had they been exposed to it, will be heirs of the celestial kingdom without being baptized for the remission of sins. This is what is plainly and obviously stated in D&C 137. For anyone to bring anything else in to the mix is a molestation of that scripture. Further, Moroni 8 plainly and simply states that children and those who are born without the law need not be baptized. Anyone who brings anything else in to the mix is molesting and altering the scriptures in question.

I'm sorry that this doesn't fit any paradigms or preconceived notions that one might have, but that is what the scriptures plainly and simply say. I didn't make it up and I'm not just teaching my own doctrine. I'm reading the scriptures and this is what they stated. So, if we are to accept the scriptures as written, we must accept that there are groups of individuals who do not need to be baptized by water in order to be saved in the celestial kingdom and by extension we can conclude that being baptized by water is not universally needed for all individuals in order to be saved in the celestial kingdom of God.

-Finrock

No the Holy Ghost did not and I illustrated that very clearly using Joseph Smiths own words to clarify your errant mistake. In other words had you allowed the spirit to have the words of the prophets to assist you as you contemplated the scriptures you would never have failed in your understanding.

In the big scheme of things I have no problem with yours or Ezra Taft Benson's original quote which you used as a means of undermining my message. However, it is a sad reality that many have used that mentality as a means of undermining the words of the prophets and even to exercise private interpretations of scripture - all because they are guided by the "Holy Ghost" when it obviously is not the source of their instruction.

My message is the same as what Ezra Taft Benson was clearly speaking to and is the message you most need to understand to stop making such easily addressed errors in understanding.

[BackBlast]

The ideas you brought up were not a subject here except by association and a means of passing judgement on people.

There is a difference between passing judgement on you and your method. Your method became the topic on this tangent, not your personal standing, righteousness, etc. I have called it incorrect and I've attempted to demonstrate why with logic and reason. By my statement here I am declaring my belief in my failure to communicate the point. You insist on couching your understanding in terms that don't really fit the recent topic while they sound very correct generally. That's great you want to teach correct doctrine. I just don't understand what that means to you in terms of disqualifying teachers of ideas, or ideas wholesale, based upon their understanding of your guide posts.

If you can show where I am actually judging you as a person I would be glad to review my behavior and look for items that need correcting. I try really hard to not make the people with whom I am speaking the topic instead of the idea at hand. Their methods, yes, occasionally. As a people we are trained in all the arts of deceitful discussion and emotional manipulation by skilled professional efforts in the media and it is a difficult think to shake.

The top quote there. You're using the same method against me that I use to discern. But I'm not judging the individual. That's where you err. I'm not judging their character, I don't think they're evil, I don't judge their heart.

It's like saying, "hey, that guy punched that other guy in the face, that ain't right!" Only I'm saying, "hey, that guy erres in fundamental doctrine or discernment, that ain't right!"

You are using a judgement of the person to qualify their other ideas. This is guilt-by-association method of argumentation, which is intellectually dishonest in nature. He believes idea A on this fundamental list, therefore we cannot indulge or listen to idea B. The commonality, or association, is the individual. You demonstrated this by bringing up unrelated ideas into this thread with your opening post as relevant evidence and linking them by a person. You state this as your methodology in your posts. Even here you defend it ("that ain't right" -> do not listen to other ideas from this person, clearly they are messed up). Your opening post (paraphrase) if they do not match this list, they are a "false teacher". This is the judgement you pass on the person, no more, no less. I wouldn't describe it as a character judgment, but one of nature in which you seek to answer the question Should we believe or not believe the ideas they teach? by evaluating/judging them per your list.

I have not been using this method of guilt-by-association. The first quote you add here is consistent with this post's content, and neither is the same as your argument's construction as you assert. My only desire to to show why this method of argument is incorrect, and I have stuck rather stubbornly (probably too much so) to this topic. False doctrine can be shown to be false without relying upon an evaluation of the individual. It may be useful to pass limited judgement on anything you want in the knowledge of personal weakness, time constraints, or any number of individual reasons. You need not explain it to anyone, and you can blow off those whom you think are in error based upon that. That is completely your prerogative. Those personal reasons, however, are not a good basis for a general argument worthy of convincing others of the same as most if not all have a different individual circumstance and place. To generalize your position you need to argue the topic at hand by it's own merits using the facts, logic, and reason that relate solely to the topic.

I have restated this same idea in various ways with different word sets multiple times. I believe I will rest upon this topic and not bother you with it further.