Inquiry about sign seeking

[Elefant]

When becomes somebody guilty of sign seeking? I mean if you pray to God to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you are actually expecting an answer through the holy ghost. This answer is a kind of spiritual manifestiation and could thus be called a sign too.

So what makes somebody a Nehor?

[EdGoble]

When becomes somebody guilty of sign seeking? I mean if you pray to God to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you are actually expecting an answer through the holy ghost. This answer is a kind of spiritual manifestiation and could thus be called a sign too.

So what makes somebody a Nehor?

What is the purpose of the sign from the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the path of Mormonism? An indicator of truth in which to place confidence and have a special kind of knowledge from God about the path he expects you to follow, after having shown true intent and having faith in Christ. This is a blessing from God that is actually offered, to learn knowledge from the Holy Ghost. And it is given as a blessing because of the fact that the law on which it is predicated was kept: the correctness of attitude and intent and purpose.

Now, if someone is a sign-seeker to titillate their curiosity and almost to be entertained by it and are pleasured by it ("consume it upon their lusts" - James 4:3), and not for the purpose of getting knowledge for which path to follow to get to God, that someone has an attitude and intent problem. Some translations of this verse in various Bibles say someone does it to "squander it on your pleasures," "spend it in your pleasures," "spend it on your evil desires," "for your own pleasure," "your object being to waste what you get on some pleasure or another," etc. And it says not to ask amiss, meaning according to some translations, "ask for the wrong reason," or "pray wrongly." Therefore, this has to do with your intent for which you are seeking a sign.

Many in the Mormon Remnant say things like, "why should we not share our most intense and deep and dramatic spiritual experiences openly to one another?" Well, because they aren't usually doing that for the right reason, but that they might be entertained and pleasured and titillated by the coolness of someone else's experience. Its a hobby for them to seek for this kind of pleasure or entertainment in a particular kind of sign seeking. And they set themselves up for deception by people that are deceivers who make claims that are false. So, it is true that these people already believe, but they are sign-hobbyists and sign-pleasure-seekers. They are not as bad as Nehors, but still seeking signs for wrong reasons.

Then, there is the actual Nehor type that seeks for signs or they refuse to believe. They want a sign before they will commit to believe. They will get no sign, unless it is a sign to their condemnation eventually, like Nehor and Sherem. The people that are burned at the second coming, that is, some of them, will be people that refused to believe and demanded a sign, and when the Savior comes, they will get a sign and it will prove to them the reality that they rejected, but then they will be burned.

So there are varying levels and kinds of "wrong reasons" to seek for signs, and there are correct reasons to seek for signs. Not all wrong reasons for seeking for signs makes someone a Nehor. But they are still wrong reasons.

[h_p]

I would imagine most of the things we do, even among the mainstream members, are also not done for the right reasons. I know for myself, it takes a lot of soul-searching to untangle all the reasons why I'm doing something. I've discovered I'm very good at lying to myself.

[Finrock]

When becomes somebody guilty of sign seeking? I mean if you pray to God to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you are actually expecting an answer through the holy ghost. This answer is a kind of spiritual manifestiation and could thus be called a sign too.

So what makes somebody a Nehor?

The Book of Mormon uses wording that means that we are asking God with the assumption that the Book is true. So, we aren't asking God to give us a sign that the Book is true and then we will believe it is true. We are asking God to confirm what you believe is true and to tell you it is not true, if it is false.

So, you are in effect saying: I believe this book is true because I have read it, pondered it, have felt the goodness in it. God, if it is not true, please let me know by the power of the Holy Ghost so that I don't stray from your path.

This is a different attitude than saying, "God, I don't believe this book is true but if you show me a sign (give me a witness by the Holy Ghost), I will believe it"

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Many in the Mormon Remnant say things like, "why should we not share our most intense and deep and dramatic spiritual experiences openly to one another?" Well, because they aren't usually doing that for the right reason, but that they might be entertained and pleasured and titillated by the coolness of someone else's experience. Its a hobby for them to seek for this kind of pleasure or entertainment in a particular kind of sign seeking. And they set themselves up for deception by people that are deceivers who make claims that are false. So, it is true that these people already believe, but they are sign-hobbyists and sign-pleasure-seekers. They are not as bad as Nehors, but still seeking signs for wrong reasons.

How are you able to know why they are doing these things? How do you know they are not doing it for the right reasons? In short, how do you know their heart in order to judge them as you've judged them?

-Finrock

[Serragon]

It seems that nearly every question of this type that pops up on this board can be answered by asking the following question: What are my motivations?

Are you seeking the Glory of God and the welfare of others? Or are you seeking your own glory and/or the welfare of yourself?

[inho]

I have often pondered Judges 6 (story about Gideon and the fleece of wool). It sounds a lot like sign seeking. Yet Lord always answered Gideon. I guess Gideon had faith in the Lord but he needed some reassurance to really understand that Lord had chosen him to do great things. And that wasn't sign seeking.

[Rose Garden]

When becomes somebody guilty of sign seeking? I mean if you pray to God to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you are actually expecting an answer through the holy ghost. This answer is a kind of spiritual manifestiation and could thus be called a sign too.

So what makes somebody a Nehor?

The Book of Mormon uses wording that means that we are asking God with the assumption that the Book is true. So, we aren't asking God to give us a sign that the Book is true and then we will believe it is true. We are asking God to confirm what you believe is true and to tell you it is not true, if it is false.

So, you are in effect saying: I believe this book is true because I have read it, pondered it, have felt the goodness in it. God, if it is not true, please let me know by the power of the Holy Ghost so that I don't stray from your path.

This is a different attitude than saying, "God, I don't believe this book is true but if you show me a sign (give me a witness by the Holy Ghost), I will believe it"

-Finrock

Unless you have a different verse in mind than I do, I don't agree with your interpretation of this verse:

Moroni 10

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

While Moroni is definitely testifying that what he has written is true, I don't believe he's asking anyone to pray with the assumption that they are true. I believe he is asking people to keep an open mind. To me, sincere heart=you really want to know and real intent=you fully intend to act on the answer you receive. In my opinion, real intent is the most vital component determining whether you will actually receive an answer or not.

This is also the problem with Nehor, in my understanding. His intent in asking for the sign was not to understand the truth but to prove Jacob wrong.

Jacob 7

13 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Show me a sign by this power of the Holy Ghost, in the which ye know so much.
14 And I said unto him: What am I that I should tempt God to show unto thee a sign in the thing which thou knowest to be true? Yet thou wilt deny it, because thou art of the devil. Nevertheless, not my will be done; but if God shall smite thee, let that be a sign unto thee that he has power, both in heaven and in earth; and also, that Christ shall come. And thy will, O Lord, be done, and not mine.

Jacob knew Nehor's heart and so he asked for a sign which would thwart Nehor's plan. God displayed his power through Jacob by making it impossible for Nehor to mount a convincing argument against it.

When Gideon asked for a sign using the fleece, he truly wanted to know God's will. He wasn't trying to set God up or get him to give him a sign to confirm his personal desires. He was being asked to go to war, a pretty serious thing, and he wanted to be sure that it was the Lord asking him. Anyone being asked such a thing would want to make sure they were hearing the right voice.

[Finrock]

When becomes somebody guilty of sign seeking? I mean if you pray to God to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you are actually expecting an answer through the holy ghost. This answer is a kind of spiritual manifestiation and could thus be called a sign too.

So what makes somebody a Nehor?

The Book of Mormon uses wording that means that we are asking God with the assumption that the Book is true. So, we aren't asking God to give us a sign that the Book is true and then we will believe it is true. We are asking God to confirm what you believe is true and to tell you it is not true, if it is false.

So, you are in effect saying: I believe this book is true because I have read it, pondered it, have felt the goodness in it. God, if it is not true, please let me know by the power of the Holy Ghost so that I don't stray from your path.

This is a different attitude than saying, "God, I don't believe this book is true but if you show me a sign (give me a witness by the Holy Ghost), I will believe it"

-Finrock

Unless you have a different verse in mind than I do, I don't agree with your interpretation of this verse:

Moroni 10

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

While Moroni is definitely testifying that what he has written is true, I don't believe he's asking anyone to pray with the assumption that they are true. I believe he is asking people to keep an open mind. To me, sincere heart=you really want to know and real intent=you fully intend to act on the answer you receive. In my opinion, real intent is the most vital component determining whether you will actually receive an answer or not.

This is also the problem with Nehor, in my understanding. His intent in asking for the sign was not to understand the truth but to prove Jacob wrong.

Jacob 7

13 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Show me a sign by this power of the Holy Ghost, in the which ye know so much.
14 And I said unto him: What am I that I should tempt God to show unto thee a sign in the thing which thou knowest to be true? Yet thou wilt deny it, because thou art of the devil. Nevertheless, not my will be done; but if God shall smite thee, let that be a sign unto thee that he has power, both in heaven and in earth; and also, that Christ shall come. And thy will, O Lord, be done, and not mine.

Jacob knew Nehor's heart and so he asked for a sign which would thwart Nehor's plan. God displayed his power through Jacob by making it impossible for Nehor to mount a convincing argument against it.

When Gideon asked for a sign using the fleece, he truly wanted to know God's will. He wasn't trying to set God up or get him to give him a sign to confirm his personal desires. He was being asked to go to war, a pretty serious thing, and he wanted to be sure that it was the Lord asking him. Anyone being asked such a thing would want to make sure they were hearing the right voice.

Moroni says: asks God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true.

Asking if it is not true is not the same as asking if it is true.

If I'm asking God if it is not true, this assumes a position of faith. As you said about Gideon, it isn't a position of lacking faith and then seeking a sign but it is a position of faith and seeking to be guided and to have our thoughts confirmed. In other words, "God, I'm going to do this and act on it, unless you tell me it is not good or not true."

-Finrock

[BeNotDeceived]

Should I stay or should I go, is the impetus that led to my little poem. :ymhug:

It and the "roving bands" discussed in Prophecy Key to the Future.

Me thinks me stay-put on my little tropical island 'till such time as that event has occurred.

Like the song: If I go there will be trouble; if I stay there will be double. I'll soon be able to double-down, although other forms of gambling are more my style. Hopefully OTEC will soon bring about energy-independence, and a whole host of other amazing benefits, including great expansion in the variety of foods that can be grown in tropical climes. I post me little poem here for it would be wrong not to share what may help others weather the worst of storms.

Besides which, others on this board contributed to what is now an unfolding truth, and they rightfully should have the opportunity to benefit therefrom.

[Rose Garden]

When becomes somebody guilty of sign seeking? I mean if you pray to God to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you are actually expecting an answer through the holy ghost. This answer is a kind of spiritual manifestiation and could thus be called a sign too.

So what makes somebody a Nehor?

The Book of Mormon uses wording that means that we are asking God with the assumption that the Book is true. So, we aren't asking God to give us a sign that the Book is true and then we will believe it is true. We are asking God to confirm what you believe is true and to tell you it is not true, if it is false.

So, you are in effect saying: I believe this book is true because I have read it, pondered it, have felt the goodness in it. God, if it is not true, please let me know by the power of the Holy Ghost so that I don't stray from your path.

This is a different attitude than saying, "God, I don't believe this book is true but if you show me a sign (give me a witness by the Holy Ghost), I will believe it"

-Finrock

Unless you have a different verse in mind than I do, I don't agree with your interpretation of this verse:

Moroni 10

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

While Moroni is definitely testifying that what he has written is true, I don't believe he's asking anyone to pray with the assumption that they are true. I believe he is asking people to keep an open mind. To me, sincere heart=you really want to know and real intent=you fully intend to act on the answer you receive. In my opinion, real intent is the most vital component determining whether you will actually receive an answer or not.

This is also the problem with Nehor, in my understanding. His intent in asking for the sign was not to understand the truth but to prove Jacob wrong.

Jacob 7

13 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Show me a sign by this power of the Holy Ghost, in the which ye know so much.
14 And I said unto him: What am I that I should tempt God to show unto thee a sign in the thing which thou knowest to be true? Yet thou wilt deny it, because thou art of the devil. Nevertheless, not my will be done; but if God shall smite thee, let that be a sign unto thee that he has power, both in heaven and in earth; and also, that Christ shall come. And thy will, O Lord, be done, and not mine.

Jacob knew Nehor's heart and so he asked for a sign which would thwart Nehor's plan. God displayed his power through Jacob by making it impossible for Nehor to mount a convincing argument against it.

When Gideon asked for a sign using the fleece, he truly wanted to know God's will. He wasn't trying to set God up or get him to give him a sign to confirm his personal desires. He was being asked to go to war, a pretty serious thing, and he wanted to be sure that it was the Lord asking him. Anyone being asked such a thing would want to make sure they were hearing the right voice.

Moroni says: asks God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true.

Asking if it is not true is not the same as asking if it is true.

If I'm asking God if it is not true, this assumes a position of faith. As you said about Gideon, it isn't a position of lacking faith and then seeking a sign but it is a position of faith and seeking to be guided and to have our thoughts confirmed. In other words, "God, I'm going to do this and act on it, unless you tell me it is not good or not true."

-Finrock

Okay, I see where you are coming from. That makes sense.

[Juliet]

When becomes somebody guilty of sign seeking? I mean if you pray to God to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you are actually expecting an answer through the holy ghost. This answer is a kind of spiritual manifestiation and could thus be called a sign too.

So what makes somebody a Nehor?

I think our problem is we don't seek enough signs. If you have believed in Jesus Christ's power your whole life and still haven't had the miracles that should be resulting from faith, than that is a worse problem than being an unbeliever and expecting miracles. The problem with Nehor was his unbelief. His unbelief got in the way of his receiving the spiritual and physical blessings that could have been available to him. I think as believers, we need to expect and notice the signs and miracles that do happen on a daily basis for our lives.

[EdGoble]

How are you able to know why they are doing these things? How do you know they are not doing it for the right reasons? In short, how do you know their heart in order to judge them as you've judged them?

-Finrock

Here we go. The "you are judging them" card, the "you don't know their heart" card. That is not answering the criticism directly. It is trying to deflect the focus of the issue rather than dealing with the issue. I invite you to deal with the issue and not refocus it.