The Sermon at Bountiful

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drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: The Sermon at Bountiful

Post by drtanner »

"If we assume there is only one baptism being spoken of, then the difference in the ordering of the elements seems potentially contradictory. On the other hand, if we grant that the different ordering of elements potentially signifies different baptisms, then we appear to have here, in the doctrine of Christ, two baptisms by water.

In the potential first instance of baptism, we repent and become as a little child - believing, trusting, without malice - and be baptized in the name of Christ, and if we do so the Father visits us with fire and with the Holy Ghost, thus bearing record of the Son, and the Holy Ghost bears record of the Father and the Son.

In the potential second instance of baptism, we repent, are baptized in the name of Christ, and become as a little child - believing, trusting, without malice - to perhaps be made fit to potentially inherit the kingdom of God."
Do not build up storage of goods / money / food / toys **for yourself** in this world - all the things moth and rust could corrupt or thieves could steal, which we store up so that we need not fear for future emergencies or unforeseen circumstance. The only reason to do so is to keep what you consider your own away from others, to make certain one always has enough for oneself, because you are fearful for the future. That kind of behavior shows that our desires, affections, confidence, and trust, is actually in our property and in men, and it is not in the Lord God; we are faithless. To lay up treasure for yourself in heaven, sell what you possess and give the proceeds of the sale to the poor, just as Jesus consistently instructed everyone: his disciples, the rich young ruler, and the Pharisees, all alike received this command. Distributing our substance to the poor is how we exchange our treasures in this world for treasure in heaven; the poor are the exchangers.

This must be understood with the preceding verses, for it is a continuation of the theme of placing our faith / trust / confidence solely in Jesus in the keeping of his commandments, as opposed to relying on our own wisdom and temporal preparations, the substance of this world, and the human social, economic, and legal systems to ensure our continued, comfortable existence in the here-and-now. If you are focused upon Christ (which entails keeping his commandments, not merely paying lip service to the Lord to be seen of men in the manner of the hypocrites) then you will be filled with his light. If not, then not. You cannot build your holdings and security in this world and serve God simultaneously. The word "mammon" means the substance of this world to which men entrust their well-being, in which they place their confidence, such as goods, stocks, bonds, insurance, savings, property, businesses, food storage, and so on.

Would love to see a quote from any of the brethren teaching these interpretations (philosophy's) of Christ doctrine. Has nothing to do with my sociocentric bias, but I will absolutely test his loyalty to the church and the 15 men who are prophets, seers, and revelators for our time. Where is your loyalty? and if to Christ then why not Christ servants unless you don't believe they are true prophets. Why go to a LDS forum and post these things if you do not believe in the church or the men who lead it?

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: The Sermon at Bountiful

Post by Yod »

My loyalty is to Christ.

If men - any men - contradict the commandments of Jesus Christ, then those who are loyal to Jesus Christ have a choice: they can either obey the men, or they can obey Jesus Christ, but they cannot do both, for the men are in opposition to Jesus Christ.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: The Sermon at Bountiful

Post by Finrock »

drtanner wrote: May 27th, 2017, 7:00 pm
"If we assume there is only one baptism being spoken of, then the difference in the ordering of the elements seems potentially contradictory. On the other hand, if we grant that the different ordering of elements potentially signifies different baptisms, then we appear to have here, in the doctrine of Christ, two baptisms by water.

In the potential first instance of baptism, we repent and become as a little child - believing, trusting, without malice - and be baptized in the name of Christ, and if we do so the Father visits us with fire and with the Holy Ghost, thus bearing record of the Son, and the Holy Ghost bears record of the Father and the Son.

In the potential second instance of baptism, we repent, are baptized in the name of Christ, and become as a little child - believing, trusting, without malice - to perhaps be made fit to potentially inherit the kingdom of God."
Do not build up storage of goods / money / food / toys **for yourself** in this world - all the things moth and rust could corrupt or thieves could steal, which we store up so that we need not fear for future emergencies or unforeseen circumstance. The only reason to do so is to keep what you consider your own away from others, to make certain one always has enough for oneself, because you are fearful for the future. That kind of behavior shows that our desires, affections, confidence, and trust, is actually in our property and in men, and it is not in the Lord God; we are faithless. To lay up treasure for yourself in heaven, sell what you possess and give the proceeds of the sale to the poor, just as Jesus consistently instructed everyone: his disciples, the rich young ruler, and the Pharisees, all alike received this command. Distributing our substance to the poor is how we exchange our treasures in this world for treasure in heaven; the poor are the exchangers.

This must be understood with the preceding verses, for it is a continuation of the theme of placing our faith / trust / confidence solely in Jesus in the keeping of his commandments, as opposed to relying on our own wisdom and temporal preparations, the substance of this world, and the human social, economic, and legal systems to ensure our continued, comfortable existence in the here-and-now. If you are focused upon Christ (which entails keeping his commandments, not merely paying lip service to the Lord to be seen of men in the manner of the hypocrites) then you will be filled with his light. If not, then not. You cannot build your holdings and security in this world and serve God simultaneously. The word "mammon" means the substance of this world to which men entrust their well-being, in which they place their confidence, such as goods, stocks, bonds, insurance, savings, property, businesses, food storage, and so on.

Would love to see a quote from any of the brethren teaching these interpretations (philosophy's) of Christ doctrine. Has nothing to do with my sociocentric bias, but I will absolutely test his loyalty to the church and the 15 men who are prophets, seers, and revelators for our time. Where is your loyalty? and if to Christ then why not Christ servants unless you don't believe they are true prophets. Why go to a LDS forum and post these things if you do not believe in the church or the men who lead it?
Let me say at the outset that I'm speaking about general principles here and I'm not claiming that I either believe or disbelieve Yod's words. I'm simply speaking about the way we accept things or reject them. I have a different criteria for how I accept words spoken by another.

Your sociocentric bias is to accept things said by those who are recognized as leaders from your social group, in this case, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Your sociocentric bias is to be skeptical or to outright reject words that are not spoken by these leaders. You trust the position and the title of these men. By your own admission, you reject those portions that you quoted simply because they have not been spoken by the leaders of your social group. It doesn't matter if they are in reality true or not, it just matters, to you, whether the men you are loyal to have spoken them. This is a sociocentric bias.

In short, I'm loyal to Jesus Christ. Yod said it well in his response. I'll just add that the Church was made for man, not man for the Church. The Church is or should be about Jesus Christ. Its not about being loyal to an institution, it's about living the gospel of Jesus Christ, whatever it says, and being loyal to Jesus Christ. The Church is intended and exists as a tool to bring us to Christ. It is not the end itself, just a means to an end, the end being disciples of Jesus Christ and doing all the things He has said to do regardless of what anyone else might be doing or saying or believing.

We can't just put our life on auto-drive and build our foundation on the notion that we will never be lead astray by certain men or that whatever gets spoken by the leaders of the Church which we belong to will always be right and we never have to question it or wonder about it or we can never accept anything except for the things that they speak and say. I don't accept that method of determining truth for myself.

-Finrock

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: The Sermon at Bountiful

Post by drtanner »

Those who would reject the 15 men sustained as prophet seers and revelators often claim that those who sustain them only trust in there position or title and forget about Christ. This isn't true. I have had a witness by the Holy Ghost in an undeniable way that these men are called by Christ to help lead us to him and they hold the keys for his ordinances of salvation to be currently operative on the earth. I don't worship them, I don't place my salvation in their hands, and I understand they are not perfect and it is crucial to leave room for what they say and confirmation of the truth. That does not change the fact that they are true prophets as was Moses, Noah, Abraham, and others. They are Gods mouth piece for our day and surely the Lord God reveals his secrets through his servants the prophets.

How does Satan drive a wedge between us and true prophets? One of the first things he does is help individuals fabricate a unique spiritual relationship / experience with Christ that ultimately can only come by following something other than what these prophets teach. To distract and persuade others he would have those individuals focus on the sacredness of the experience in order to draw others away and emphasize how the prophets are not experiencing these same things. He would then whisper that those called to lead the church are flawed and that having a unique spiritual experience with Christ can only come if you recognize that they are not teaching the full truth. He will use scriptures and any means necessary to make it appear as if these men are contradicting the words of the savior. Perfect recipe for a wedge. Christ church is lead by modern prophets. You can obtain all of the blessings of those mentioned in scripture by staying close to them and what they teach, you do not need to abandon your faith in them and what they teach in order to literally come unto Christ. In fact just the opposite, they will help lead you to him and keep you from being deceived.

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