The Relationship Between Grace and Works

[Yod]

One of the interesting things about the name-title יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים (Yehovah Elohiym; KJV: LORD God) is that it can be translated "He who causes the Gods to be," or, more succinctly, "The Godmaker."

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The works commanded in the Sermon on the Mount are training exercises, helping us to recognize, agree to, and realize the principles of love. Doing them teaches us what manner of being we are, and what manner of being God is. Knowing what manner of being God is is important because salvation consists of being assimilated into his likeness and being. In plain terms, salvation consists of becoming God. That's the point of being one in him, having the same spirit, the same mind, the same heart, mutually indwelling, knowing all things.

If you are saved, you cease to be you as you have always known you and you become him. You will know all that he knows, and you will feel as he feels, and you will freely do what he would freely do. Therefore you have to be persuaded, fully, competently, that to be what God is is better, or more desirable, than to be what you are, otherwise you will not freely choose to be what he is; you do not want it, and thus he cannot make you what he is without denying your agency - erasing against your will those things which separate you from him, those things you aren't persuaded he is right about, those things you have yielded to another power.

So what he is looking for are people who will always freely do that which is good, of their own free will and choice, for there is no external government among the Gods. You either govern yourself wholly according to the good or you aren't a God - you aren't ready, not yet being persuaded, not yet agreeing. You remain you, because you don't want to be what God is. You do not wish to love as he loves.

And we show that this is what we want - we show that we agree to his terms and conditions - when we lay down our all - everything we have and are - in sacrifice in the exercise of keeping all his commandments as contained in the Sermon and delivered to us directly, thus showing that we are, in fact, fully persuaded that he is trustworthy, and that to be him is better than to be us. Then is his grace - ability to give a good gift - sufficient for us, for we have shown before all that we agree to be saved, even unto ourselves; we know by our own experience through keeping his commandments what it is we are asking for, and are therefore competent, or able, to receive it.

Otherwise, we aren't worthy of the gift he would give, which gift is his own being, all that he is and has, including his love.

The point at which we break God's commandments as we know them - whether given in the Sermon on the Mount or directly to us - is the point at which we have yielded to, or agreed with, another power. You believed that power over God, you wanted what it offered over what God is offering, so that power persuaded you to choose to turn aside from the path of Godliness.

God cannot save you from what you want and have chosen; that violates your agency, thus you cannot be saved in your sins. You knowingly chose to yield to that power over God, thus it takes possession of you and you obey it. As it is written, whatever spirit possesses you when you exit this life shall have power to possess you in the next world - whether that spirit is the spirit of the devil, or the holy spirit.

God can, however, save you when, or if, you change your mind and decide to yield to him instead, and strive in your might to obey him in the thing you have sinned in, rebelling against the evil spirit you have yielded to and allowed to possess you. Thus God can save you from your sins when you strive against the evil spirit with all your might and do cast your sins away from you and ask God to forgive you and rescue you from them.

Therefore, why not do it now? Why not repent of all your sins now, and call upon God in your might that he might forgive you and rescue you from the evil you have yielded to, while you walk with all diligence according to God's commandments in the Sermon on the Mount? Why procrastinate the day of your release?

[Rose Garden]

I agree. However, it seems from what you say that conversion is an instantaneous event, a decision you make or a single prayer you say. I do not believe it is. I believe that the idea of instantaneous salvation is one of the great lies of this life. It is the "pill" people want to take to fix their problems then and there.

In endeavoring to turn your direction to God there are two vital parts: being willing to and being able to. What you speak of above sounds like you are talking about being willing to. That is one necessary step but it is only the beginning. Once you have shown the Father that you are willing to become a disciple of his Son, you then need to go through the process of being able to. That process is a long and difficult one that apparently few ever undertake, let alone finish.

Moroni 4

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he hath given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Moroni 5

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

I believe the sacrament is highly symbolic of the process of conversion. First of all, the prayers tell us that first we witness to the Father that we are willing and then we witness to him that we "do" which of course indicates that we are actually able of doing what we desire to do. The ordinance of the sacrament is the act of taking in food and drink into your body, one swallow at a time. Just as our bodies are physically created by the food and drink we put into our mouth, day by day, meal by meal, we are converted to the Lord by taking "him" into ourselves, day by day, hour by hour. It is a process that takes place one action at a time.

The reason it is a process is because of the great darkness that surrounds the people of this world. While you can make the decision to follow the Lord, it takes time to learn to actually choose him over other powers or gods that seek to draw us away from him. From our birth, we are taught lies that dictate our understanding of right and wrong. Even the plainest language is misunderstood by those lost in darkness. The Lord does reach out to us as soon as we demonstrate to him we are willing, but because he cannot violate our free will, he can only help us find our way out of the darkness, he can't just yank us right out. Lehi's dream is symbolic of this process:

And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.

Through the many years that we have had the sermon on the mount available to us, people have misinterpreted the meaning of the different elements of it. Many people seek to follow Christ and yet they don't truly understand his words. They disagree with each other because they each are looking at it through a veil of darkness. They are interpreting the words according to their various experiences.

The iron rod is symbolic of our personal interaction with the Lord. As we reach out to him through the darkness, he reaches out to us as well, and then as we continue making our way forward through the darkness, we come to know him personally. We come to understand the interpretation of the words of the scriptures according to the way he interprets them, rather than our corrupt human understanding.It is a gradual process that can only be done over time.

If you make the decision today to do all that the Lord has commanded you and begin to do everything exactly as you understand, you will still be in error. If you give all your worldly goods away, you will eventually find that it is not enough. You will still not be rewarded with the peace and comfort available through the Spirit of the Lord. You will discover in time that you must give up every belief that you have had, every line in the sand, every stake you have put up against the Lord and accept again the truth from God's hand, and only then can you say that you have given everything. But that takes time.

It is a process of persuasion, as you say, but it is a very long process. Every day people unknowingly make dozens of decisions that go against the will of the Lord. Every day they choose to serve the wrong power. For each of those errors the disciple of Christ must be taught the truth so they can change their ways and walk in the way of the Lord rather than after their own sight and understanding. In the end they will fulfill the words of Christ but at first, after they have made that first step of becoming willing, they are a Babylonian mess that needs a great deal of clean up. They need to learn to choose the Lord over all others in many different little things before their whole being is transformed into a true disciple of Christ.

Anyway, the baby is out of control. It's bedtime. Goodnight.

[Yod]

I agree. However, it seems from what you say that conversion is an instantaneous event, a decision you make or a single prayer you say. I do not believe it is.

In order to be corrected, I first have to be corrected. I am not responsible for what you think I said that I did not say. But also, as a general principle, if the scriptures have examples of what you say is a lie, then perhaps you ought to rethink your position.

[eddie]

I agree. However, it seems from what you say that conversion is an instantaneous event, a decision you make or a single prayer you say. I do not believe it is.

In order to be corrected, I first have to be corrected. I am not responsible for what you think I said that I did not say. But also, as a general principle, if the scriptures have examples of what you say is a lie, then perhaps you ought to rethink your position.

And don't forget the golden rule!

[Yod]

And, Meili, by the way, I am not taking a position on whether the scriptures do, in fact, have examples of instantaneous salvation.

[Rose Garden]

I agree. However, it seems from what you say that conversion is an instantaneous event, a decision you make or a single prayer you say. I do not believe it is.

In order to be corrected, I first have to be corrected. I am not responsible for what you think I said that I did not say. But also, as a general principle, if the scriptures have examples of what you say is a lie, then perhaps you ought to rethink your position.

No worries, I'm not holding you responsible.

Since I'm familiar with the standard LDS canon, I'm aware of scriptures that may seem to contradict my position. However, I cannot come to any other conclusion at this time due to my experience. As my understanding changes, that may change as well.

[drtanner]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/03/look ... k?lang=eng

[Yod]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/03/look ... k?lang=eng

Yes, it is a philosophy of men that finding out what the Lord requires for salvation, so that we may do it, is "looking beyond the mark."