A prophet is not without honour

[Onsdag]

In another thread about a different topic the discussion started drifting into whether or not Prophets are everyday people like you or I and also whether or not they should be treated any differently than we treat one another. So as to not further derail the other topic (which is about Julie Rowe and Energy Healing) I am bringing the discussion about honoring (or not) Prophets here.

Read about the role of Prophets in the scriptures. They aren't 'just people'. Pres. Monson and the members of the quorum of 12 are 'prophets, seers and revelators' who are set at the head of the church to lead and guide us. Look at Jesus' calling of the 12 disciples in 3rd Nephi and the role they were given in teaching, ministering to and serving the people. Look at Jesus calling the 12 apostles in the New Testament and the role they played after his ascension--they were his servants to do his will in spreading the gospel, teaching the people, administering ordinances etc.. Look at the Lord's own words in the Doctrine and Covenants about the role of Prophets as well as nature of the Prophets of the Old Testament. If you do this, there's no way you can think they are 'just people'.

'CAN' a prophet be a wolf in sheep's clothing? It's possible, but if you trust Heavenly Father then you won't assume Pres. Monson or any of our Prophets serving today are going to lead you into dark paths. As I said to Juliet, if you don't trust our living Prophets, then you don't have a testimony of their role and their mission. That's a problem for you and makes you vulnerable to being deceived. The Lord gave a warning against false prophets in the last days, but that was about those who were not properly ordained and set at the head of the church to lead it. The Lord didn't expect you to be second guessing and questioning HIS established divinely called authorities, worrying they might be deceiving you.

This thread is about a woman who has set herself up as a prophet(while she never calls herself one, she puts herself forward as one) and she's also a practitioner of what the news report called 'christ centered' energy healing and she charges money for her service--exactly what was warned about in the church statement. If you want to ignore their warning, you can, you have that choice, but don't say you weren't warned. And those who claim to have a testimony that we are lead by prophets of God, ought to be wise and heed the warning, not look for excuses and rationalizations so they can continue to do what they want.

They are, when it is all said in done, just people, like the rest of us. They have a particular calling and a particular position in the Church, but that doesn't make them anything more than mortal men with a different responsibility. No man or woman is greater, better, or more important than another man or woman in the grand scheme of things. We are neither inferior nor superior to the apostles. What you say from the scriptures can apply and in fact does apply to any servant of God who is acting within the capacity in which he or she has been placed.

Not to mention, many a "prophet" and an "apostle" has fallen. They are not exempt from the weaknesses and frailties of men. They stumble and fall. They say things that are wrong. They sometimes lead people astray and later generations have to denounce their words. "Apostles" sometimes commit adultery and need to be excommunicated. Sometimes, they apostatize. Sometimes they were traitors from the beginning.

We shouldn't place the apostles on a pedestal. They have their particular duty and calling in life, but, they are, when it is all said and done, just as dependent on Jesus Christ as any one of us. They are just people, mortal men, working out their salvation the best as they can just like the rest of us.

These are factual statements. Doesn't indicate a lack of faith, or a lack of trust, or apostasy, or doesn't make someone a bad Mormon or a bad person and if you believe differently than this, it doesn't make you superior and a better Mormon and neither does it make you an inferior or worse Mormon. We all have our faults and weaknesses.

-Finrock

I agree with AI2.0 on this. Sure, you make some valid points - even the best of us suffer weaknesses and are prone to making mistakes, falling, and even leading others astray. However, and in spite of that, the leaders of Christ's Church have been "called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof." Lest we forget, it was God who stood in the midst of "many of the noble and great ones" in the pre-mortal realms and declared "These I will make my rulers; for he... saw that they were good." The Lord's Prophets were "chosen before [they were] born."

And, in my opinion, to declare them as "just people, like the rest of us" and, perhaps worse, to encourage people to "consider that prophets and apostles may be wolves in sheep clothing" is disingenuous and duplicitous as it undermines their holy calling and authority as duly ordained servants of God and cultivates the seed of dissension and apostasy among the saints. How you cannot see this is beyond me as examples of this are to be found all throughout scripture, as Summerwind has pointed out.

Take, for instance, the case of Aaron and Miriam against Moses - this just after Moses had declared that he wished all the people were prophets (a scripture the Snufferites love to bring up, all the while forgetting the second half of the story, which is...) Aaron and Miriam became prideful and lifted their heels against the Lord's anointed Prophet Moses and the Lord came out against them in no uncertain terms, including inflicting Leprosy upon Miriam, until they repented of their evil. Another great example of this is found in the Doctrine and Covenants where the Lord declares:

14. ...and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15. For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16. They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
17. Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18. And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19. The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20. But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;

Funny thing about these verses is that we see again how the Snufferites would use verses 19-20 to justify not following or trusting in the Prophets, all the while forgetting that the Lord himself rebukes this philosophy, saying "they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god." Again, we need to remember that Christ has declared "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." Therefore, those who undermine and reject the Lord's chosen servants are in effect rejecting Him, for "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."

We see this thought also expressed in Luke 20:1-19 where the scribes, priests, and elders (those 'religious' folk of the day who were in a position to teach and influence others... Snufferites, anyone?) came questioning Jesus' authority. He, perceiving their thoughts and intentions, asked them where they thought John's (a 'Prophet', if you will) authority came from. This put them in a precarious position because if they declared him a Prophet of God then they knew Jesus would call them on it because they did not believe or hearken to him as such, but if they declared that he was 'just a man' like you or I then they knew that they would be stoned by the people who knew that he was a Prophet. To avoid responsibility and accountability they therefore abdicated from declaring where John's authority came from. Jesus thereafter taught them a parable of a 'certain man' (God, if you will) who planted a vineyard and let it out to husbandmen. He later sent his authorized 'servants' (Prophets) to collect the fruit of the vineyard, but in every instance they were rejected and treated very poorly. He then sent his 'beloved son' (Jesus Christ), giving them the opportunity to "reverence him when they see him," but alas they rejected and killed even him. In closing Jesus Christ then said that the Lord of the vineyard would "come and destroy these husbandmen." The priests, scribes, and elders were astonished at this parable and declared "God forbid." Christ then looked upon them and said that the stone which the builders rejected would destroy them. "And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to [kill] him;... for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them."

Those who reject the Lord's chosen and anointed servants (as the 'husbandmen' had done with all the Prophets who had come before in the above parable) are, in truth, rejecting the Lord himself.

"And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them." (D&C 124:45-46)

D&C 133:
57. And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity—
58. To prepare the weak for those things which are coming on the earth, and for the Lord’s errand in the day when the weak shall confound the wise, and the little one become a strong nation, and two shall put their tens of thousands to flight.
59. And by the weak things of the earth the Lord shall thresh the nations by the power of his Spirit.
60. And for this cause these commandments were given; they were commanded to be kept from the world in the day that they were given, but now are to go forth unto all flesh—
61. And this according to the mind and will of the Lord, who ruleth over all flesh.
62. And unto him that repenteth and sanctifieth himself before the Lord shall be given eternal life.
63. And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people.
64. And also that which was written by the prophet Malachi: For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
65. Wherefore, this shall be the answer of the Lord unto them:
66. In that day when I came unto mine own, no man among you received me, and you were driven out.
67. When I called again there was none of you to answer; yet my arm was not shortened at all that I could not redeem, neither my power to deliver.
68. Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea. I make the rivers a wilderness; their fish stink, and die for thirst.
69. I clothe the heavens with blackness, and make sackcloth their covering.
70. And this shall ye have of my hand—ye shall lie down in sorrow.
71. Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.
72. Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.
73. These shall go away into outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.
74. Behold the Lord your God hath spoken it. Amen.

Need I go on?

No, the Prophets and Apostles of God are not "just men." They are His chosen vessels. And we would do well to hearken to and follow them because in doing so we are hearkening to and following God himself. Of that I testify, according to the Spirit of God which is in me.

The scriptures apply to all people just the same. Was Judah a noble and great one? How about the two apostles who committed adultery in the 20th century? How about those who apostatized in the early Church and were complicit in the murder of Joseph Smith? Look, I understand where you are coming from, but I don't place these men on pedestals and I don't venerate them. I respect them just as I respect any man. I recognize their calling and their responsibility and I respect their position in the Church. However, they are mortals and they are just men. That statement is not demeaning, it is reality. I know for many Mormons the apostles are idolized and treated as celebrities. Maybe this isn't you, maybe it is. When someone you idolize or when you respect one man above another, it seems like that if you aren't praising them or if you aren't saying something flattering about them that people are disrespecting them. But, the reality is that in this case, you have someone who is just pointing out the absolute fact of the situation. These men, as good as they are, are nothing. Just as we all are nothing, without Christ. They don't have any special standing before God by virtue of their calling. God does not love them more than He loves me or you or anyone else. It's wise to listen to them and they have the keys to direct the affairs of the Church. That is their prerogative and I respect that as well. I sustain them and support them in their positions. I pray for them and hope that they maintain the dignity of their calling forever. I wish and hope nothing but good for them and to them. But, at the most fundamental level, I don't see their value and their potential as any greater than any other human who lives on this earth. The apostles have no Godly power or Godly authority by virtue of their position. If they have any Godly power or any Godly authority it is because they have the Holy Spirit. It is God who deserves all honor and all glory. Us mortals, including the apostles, are deserving of nothing. If they have done any good, its because they have God with them. So, I venerate and worship God and I acknowledge God and I honor God with an honor and a respect that supercedes that of any mortal.

Now, I happen to understand these scriptures you quote a bit differently. To me, for instance, all those who were present at that meeting in the pre-existence and who chose to follow Jesus Christ are the noble and great ones. That means, each person and every person we see here on this earth, was one of the noble and great ones. We each have that spark of divinity within us and we are in a very real way gods and goddess. Each man is on equal on a fundamental level. I don't respect one man above another. I don't respect positions and authority for the sake of a positions and for the sake of authority. I respect and respond to goodness. When I feel the Spirit, I respect that. Further, the apostles are servants. They are not my kings, they aren't celebrities, they are not demi-gods, or above mortal failings and frailties. I think it is folly and wrong, actually, to place them on such a pedestal where we view them as not just men. But, as I said, we all have our weaknesses and struggles in life. Me venerating the apostles is not one of them.

Further, a leader in the gospel and a ruler in the gospel or in God's kingdom, is a servant. Look at how Paul described himself. I think he would have a conniption fit if he saw anyone placing him on a pedestal and saying that he was not just a man:

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

In any case, I don't need to see someone as more than just a man in order to respect them. I don't need to see someone as more than just a man in order to listen to them. God is not a respecter of persons and neither am I. I look for and wait on the voice of the Spirit. When I hear that voice, whether from God himself or from Him servants, I pay attention and I obey. The apostles have an important role to play. They are leaders in the Church. They have a big responsibility and they have an important job to do. They are expected to act according to calling that they have, but there isn't a calling in the Church, when it comes from God, that God sees superior in nature to another. Us humans, mortals, we have this weird tendency to respect people we think have power. We want to set up an idol that we can look up to. We want to imagine in our minds men and women who are so righteous and so good that they are above just mere human status, as if they are a special class of humans. The noble and great ones are all around us. If we are just looking at the apostles with glassy eyes and with adoration then we will begin to treat them differently than other people. We will be tempted to treat the apostles with respect while we feel justified in treating others who are not adored by us with disrespect, just because we don't recognize them as having a high status in our Church or organization. We will miss some truly noble and great souls who are humbly and without fanfare bringing about God's purposes with great power and authority because they have the Spirit of God, doing their work in the place they were placed in the vineyard. In my view, it is wrong to respect or to esteem one man above another. God said that we should not do that. He said we shouldn't esteem one man above another man. Further, the apostles will falter and fail, eventually. They can't maintain the unreal status that some might put on them. Not if, but, when this happens and if your foundation was built on the goodness and glory of the leaders, thinking they are the only noble and great ones around, then your faith will shatter when the pedestal you placed them on shatters.

Only Jesus Christ deserves to be put on a pedestal and adored. Only the Spirit should be listened to, not a position and a title.

Last point here. It seems to me that you are conflating issues here. I'm not Denver Snuffer and it doesn't matter if Denver Snuffer said or used the same excuse to justify what he did. The dichotomy is not adore the apostles or you are an apostate. That is ridiculous nonsense. There are other options.

I don't have to give undue respect to mortals, I don't have to adore them, I don't have to believe they are more than just men in order to be a good man. I am a good man. I try to treat all people with the respect they deserve by virtue of them being divine. I don't always respect behavior, but at the most fundamental level, I try to see each human being on this planet as equal in status, equal in value, and equal in their potential. I give appropriate respect to people's positions and try not to be a burden on them, regardless of what they duties and responsibilities are. I recognize the apostles as good men who have a lot of experience in the Church and, I'm assuming, living the gospel. I listen to them and when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, I obey their words because at that point, they aren't speaking but God is. However, I don't assume that every time they speak they are speaking by the influence of the Spirit. I don't hang on their every word. I don't see them as being infallible. I recognize their mortal status and I respect that. I respect that they are fallible men who are in most cases working hard to be good examples, who are sincere, and who are trying to live the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Because they are just men, I have empathy for them. Because they are just men, I have compassion on them. Because they are just men, I have mercy on them and I can more easily forgive them when they screw up and make mistakes. Because they are just men, I don't expect unreal or unrealistic things from them and so I am not bothered or worried about some of the decisions they make, some of the things they say, and some of the ways they act which are contrary to what is good or the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because they are just men, I don't abandon the Church when I find out about when apostles committed adultery, or when they taught false doctrine, or how when they were complicit in the murder of Joseph Smith. Because they are just men, I love them and respect them more.

-Finrock

I understand, respect, and, for the most part, agree with what you said. I believe that some people do honor and venerate the Prophets and Apostles to the point it becomes idolatry - and this is inappropriate and indeed dangerous. However, I would like to make the point that there is nothing wrong with honoring the Prophets, and in fact would perhaps go so far as to say that it's good and appropriate to give them due respect and honor.

I perhaps didn't express myself as well before, but I will try and do better now by approaching the subject from a different angle, namely from the words of Christ which you will find as the title of this thread. You see, during his ministry it is recorded in scripture that:

Matthew 13:
54. And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55. Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56. And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57. And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58. And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
(see also Mark 6:1-6; John 4:44)

It seems clear that the Lord is lamenting the fact that there are people who do not honor and respect the Prophets, especially among people who seem to view the Prophets as "just another man." You see this expressed in their words "Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?" Isn't he just another man like us? Why then should we believe or respect him? The testimony of Mark says that Jesus "marvelled because of their unbelief" and could "do no mighty work" among them because of it. This, to me, suggests that not only should we honor and respect prophets as more than just a common man, but that to Jesus it is expected and pleasing.

When the Lord commands us to "Honour thy father and thy mother" doesn't that suggest we treat them differently than the common man? Even with their weaknesses and foibles don't we show them deference, love, honor, respect, etc., more than we treat others? And just because we honor and cherish our parents doesn't mean we are putting them on a pedestal or idolizing them inappropriately (though some do).

And what of our spouses? I would hope that you treat your spouse with great love, affection, cherishing and praising them, building them up, etc. The scriptures suggest we do so (see Ephesians 5:22-33; 1 Peter 3:1-7 for example). Is it wrong for us to treat them differently than we treat others? I wouldn't think so. And I would think you feel the same way. And I'm pretty sure any honorable person would not lightly tolerate others besmirching the good character of their spouse, even if it was perhaps justified. I feel similarly towards our Prophets. Why? Well, that brings us to the next point, which your post is a great segue for.

And, just wanted to add that when done right, every position in this Church should be fulfilled because the person was "called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof."

Every calling in this Church should or ought to be filled by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those in authority. Every calling in this Church is of equal value. The head is not more important than the eye. Neither is the head more important than the heart, or the legs, or the fingers, or the cells, or the little critters that live on the skin and eat all of our dead skin. Every part of the body, although different and having different functions, is as important as the other parts.

-Finrock

Yes, I absolutely agree that we are all the body of Christ and every part is important and needed. However, some parts are more important than others. And guess what, there's nothing wrong with that - it's the way God organized our bodies, and His Church. I no longer have an appendix and I'm still alive. How many people do you know who are still alive without their heart, or their head? Some parts of our body are more vital and important than others. Christ is the head of the body of the Church; without him we would be dead - both individually, and collectively as a Church. As such He is worthy of all praise and glory. The Prophets, Seers, and Revelators are right up there too, and without them we would die as well, as happened to the early Church during the Great Apostasy. As such they too are worthy of honor and respect befitting their role. Me, on the other hand, may just be a red blood cell, doing my little part, and if I were lost or detached from the body it would have an impact - however little that might be - but the body of the Church would keep on living and functioning without me. Am I important? Sure! But I'm not deluded enough to think I'm just as important as the head or heart of the body. Furthermore, and since we are all one body, me giving praise to the head (Jesus Christ) helps add to the glory of the entire body - including myself. Same thing for giving glory and honor to my parents, or my spouse, or the Prophets. As their glory increases so too, I find, does mine.

These things are also expressed in John 15 where Christ talks about Him being the vine and his disciples being the branches that bring forth fruit. This goes well with Rensai's post:

Well said Finrock, I agree with most of what you said. I'd like to talk about a small piece of it though.

Now, I happen to understand these scriptures you quote a bit differently. To me, for instance, all those who were present at that meeting in the pre-existence and who chose to follow Jesus Christ are the noble and great ones. That means, each person and every person we see here on this earth, was one of the noble and great ones. We each have that spark of divinity within us and we are in a very real way gods and goddess. Each man is on equal on a fundamental level. I don't respect one man above another. I don't respect positions and authority for the sake of a positions and for the sake of authority. I respect and respond to goodness. When I feel the Spirit, I respect that. Further, the apostles are servants. They are not my kings, they aren't celebrities, they are not demi-gods, or above mortal failings and frailties. I think it is folly and wrong, actually, to place them on such a pedestal where we view them as not just men. But, as I said, we all have our weaknesses and struggles in life. Me venerating the apostles is not one of them.

I'd like to hear more about how you arrived at this conclusion because I came to the opposite one. To me, the chosen are very few, they are the noble and great ones, likely the dispensation heads, guys like abraham, adam, noah, etc are the chosen. They are not everyone and they are special, God knows he can count on them. God declared that Abraham was one of them, but for the rest, its just guess work. We cannot assume anyone else is a noble and great one unless God says so at some point.

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Few are chosen, they are not the average joe, but many are called. I think there is a big difference between being called and being chosen. In the church we like to say all our leaders serving in the church are called of God. We take this to be reassuring, as if God is somehow endorsing everyone in their respective church callings and/or that it means they will do a good job. I think D&C shows plainly that is false. There are so many examples of men called of God in D&C who then go on to sin and failure. Usually Christ tells them they can be forgiven and gives them another calling to try and learn. So being called of God is just a call to action, a chance to step up and help with the work, to learn and grow, but should not in any way be conflated to mean someone called of God will do a good job. D&C does not support that idea at all as far as I can see.

One other thing I want to comment on is:

Again, we need to remember that Christ has declared "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." Therefore, those who undermine and reject the Lord's chosen servants are in effect rejecting Him, for "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."

I think this is another often misapplied scripture. When God says this, he is not saying everything a prophet says is his word, rather he is saying, when a prophet speaks for God it will be exactly his words. That is why it is the same, because when a prophet delivers God's words, he should be like an answering machine, repeating the message verbatim, then and only then is the voice of God and his servants the same, because like Joseph did when dictating a revelation, they are literally God's words. That quote is from D&C 1 and previous verse makes it clear what God is talking about specifically.

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

He is saying D&C contains commandments and prophecies that will be fulfilled and that when the servants who spoke them said them, they were speaking his words. He is not however, saying that every servants words ever will be his words, that's crazy. Just look at some of the things Brigham Young, wilford woodruff, etc said that the church disavows and that idea is easily proven false. You can't use this verse to mean that everything the church leaders say is God's word, it doesn't hold up.

Well spoken. John 15 really is a great scripture that talks about all these things and is worth reposting here:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

There is so much that could be discussed about this one chapter alone, but I will forbear for now as this post is long enough as it is.

[AI2.0]

Thanks for starting this thread. I was thinking about this, the insistence that Prophets are no different than anyone else. It was a thought that bothered me. I don't put our prophets 'on a pedestal', thinking they can do nothing wrong or that they should be treated like royalty. I think they are very much like the rest of us, in their hopes, their desires, struggles etc. Though, I think most of them are more humble than many of us, are much better at being consistent with listening to the spirit and responding and I think they are a lot stricter and firmer at keeping commandments than I am. But, those things aren't what really came to my mind as I contemplated this.

It was the events surrounding Alma's preaching, when he meets Amulek and as he's received by various Nephite communities.

In Alma 8; Alma gave up the chief judge seat and went out to preach in his capacity as High Priest, which would have been equivalent to our President and Prophet of our church today. When he preached in Ammonihah, the people were very insolent, they pointed out that while Alma was leader of the church, he wasn't leader of their nation anymore and so they didn't have to listen to him or care what he said, saying; "we know that thou hast no power over us", they even reviled and spit on him.

To the people of Ammonihah, Alma was 'just a man'. They only recognized and deferred to secular power, but dismissed theocratic power. They said to him; "Who is God, that sendeth no more authority than one man among this people, to declare unto them the truth of such great and marvelous things?"

The Ammonihahites got one thing right, that what mattered was 'authority'. What they got wrong was that they rejected Alma's authority. In other words, to them, he was 'just a man'. But, to Amulek, a man who was influenced by the Holy Ghost, even seeing a vision, he knew by the spirit that Alma was more than 'just a man' and he testified of this; "I know that thou art a holy prophet of God".

What set Alma apart? Authority and his calling as High Priest. That's what sets our Prophets and Apostles apart today from just any other men. They hold the Priesthood (which most LDS men hold), but they were also ordained to the office of apostle within the Melchizedek Priesthood (which gives them stewardship that others do not have) and they were set apart to fulfill certain callings in administrating the affairs of the church. This gives them authority to speak as 'watchmen on the tower' and to preach to us, by the power of God, to teach us, admonish us, etc. on behalf of the Lord-- just as Alma did in his day. If LDS members don't know this, they need to work to receive a testimony of this very important concept.

People like Julie Rowe have no authority or stewardship to fulfill the role that a prophet over the church has. She can share her dreams, visions, thoughts and predictions, but she cannot claim or allude to having authority because this is something she does not have.

I think some members fall into trouble when they fail to understand this difference. I also think those who don't understand the importance of proper authority and stewardship are vulnerable to being deceived. I also think that those who dismiss or speak ill of the Lord's Apostles and Prophets are similar to the people of Ammonihah in their attitudes....they are skating on thin ice and it will catch up to them eventually.

[Finrock]

I have more pressing things to do in life than to worry about whether I'm giving some special honor to some man or some set of men. All people deserve my respect and honor equally. What good do I accomplish by setting aside some special place in my heart for certain men? I honor God when I treat all of His children, and my brothers and sisters, with the dignity they deserve.

Thus saith the Lord, "Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another..."

I am not saying that I should not honor the apostles, I'm saying that I should not honor them above anyone else. Mostly, because that is what God plainly said. I believe Him and wish to obey Him in all things. And, lastly, it feels right to me to not esteem one flesh above another. And, no man should think himself above another. In other words, the apostles should not expect to be honored or esteemed above anyone else. If they do, they are sinning.

-Finrock

[Juliet]

I made a covenant to obey my husband, as he obeys Heavenly Father. But that doesn't mean I fall down on the floor and let him use me as a doormat, giving up all my faculties of reasoning and influence and submit to him as an unequal, unthinking, and incapable spiritual companion. Sometimes, that means, I have to have the faith to open up my mouth and talk to my husband about my spiritual view of things. I don't think we would be asked to sustain our leaders, if we were supposed to fall down, give up our thinking and agency, and worship everything they say without our own spiritual testimony of it. I think our ability to know by the Holy Spirit whether what they say is true or not, is just as important as is their responsibility to preach by the Holy Spirit.

President Joseph F. Smith has a series of books on answers to gospel questions. One of the questions, is; how do you know if the prophet is speaking as a prophet or just a man. I remember the answer was, as you know anything is true, you know by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That is also what D&C 50 teaches us. That if anyone teaches truth, we know because of the spirit of truth that the teaching possesses. If a teaching has the spirit of truth, than the teacher and the student will both be edified and enlightened, and thereby it may be discerned as possessing the spirit of truth. If the teaching comes by some other way, it is not of God.

[Rensai]

Thanks for starting this thread. I was thinking about this, the insistence that Prophets are no different than anyone else. It was a thought that bothered me. I don't put our prophets 'on a pedestal', thinking they can do nothing wrong or that they should be treated like royalty. I think they are very much like the rest of us, in their hopes, their desires, struggles etc. Though, I think most of them are more humble than many of us, are much better at being consistent with listening to the spirit and responding and I think they are a lot stricter and firmer at keeping commandments than I am. But, those things aren't what really came to my mind as I contemplated this.

It was the events surrounding Alma's preaching, when he meets Amulek and as he's received by various Nephite communities.

In Alma 8; Alma gave up the chief judge seat and went out to preach in his capacity as High Priest, which would have been equivalent to our President and Prophet of our church today. When he preached in Ammonihah, the people were very insolent, they pointed out that while Alma was leader of the church, he wasn't leader of their nation anymore and so they didn't have to listen to him or care what he said, saying; "we know that thou hast no power over us", they even reviled and spit on him.

To the people of Ammonihah, Alma was 'just a man'. They only recognized and deferred to secular power, but dismissed theocratic power. They said to him; "Who is God, that sendeth no more authority than one man among this people, to declare unto them the truth of such great and marvelous things?"

The Ammonihahites got one thing right, that what mattered was 'authority'. What they got wrong was that they rejected Alma's authority. In other words, to them, he was 'just a man'. But, to Amulek, a man who was influenced by the Holy Ghost, even seeing a vision, he knew by the spirit that Alma was more than 'just a man' and he testified of this; "I know that thou art a holy prophet of God".

What set Alma apart? Authority and his calling as High Priest. That's what sets our Prophets and Apostles apart today from just any other men. They hold the Priesthood (which most LDS men hold), but they were also ordained to the office of apostle within the Melchizedek Priesthood (which gives them stewardship that others do not have) and they were set apart to fulfill certain callings in administrating the affairs of the church. This gives them authority to speak as 'watchmen on the tower' and to preach to us, by the power of God, to teach us, admonish us, etc. on behalf of the Lord-- just as Alma did in his day. If LDS members don't know this, they need to work to receive a testimony of this very important concept.

People like Julie Rowe have no authority or stewardship to fulfill the role that a prophet over the church has. She can share her dreams, visions, thoughts and predictions, but she cannot claim or allude to having authority because this is something she does not have.

I think some members fall into trouble when they fail to understand this difference. I also think those who don't understand the importance of proper authority and stewardship are vulnerable to being deceived. I also think that those who dismiss or speak ill of the Lord's Apostles and Prophets are similar to the people of Ammonihah in their attitudes....they are skating on thin ice and it will catch up to them eventually.

Thanks AI, you make a good point with that story about Alma. We definitely need to show respect and consideration towards church leaders. I want to clarify my thinking here a little. I don't point out fallacies and flaws in how we treat the leaders in hopes of undermining them or causing people to scorn them. I do it because what I experience at church tells me our culture is far closer towards turning them into false idols than it is to scorning them. Blindly following them or turning them into false idols is just as dangerous as treating them with scorn. We have to find a balanced position, where they are treated with respect, but not put on a pedestal either.

I'm going to hop on my soap box here for a minute and share a few thoughts about what I see going on in the church. It may get a little off topic but I think its part of the discussion about how we view the prophets.

On the one hand, I see so much repeated lip service to the leaders. Follow the prophet is sung nearly every week in primary for example (we rarely if ever sang it when I was a kid) and almost every testimony contains the words, "I know the church is true, and that president monson is a prophet." or something similar. We misuse scriptures like the one in D&C 1 I pointed out to imply the prophet always speaks for God, we insist on repeating the demonstrably false statement wilford woodruff made, that the prophet can never lead you astray, etc. I see all this and I think that first, its pretty easy to prove prophets have been wrong, even speaking in general conference. So we are doing a pretty poor job teaching truth. Secondly, when people learn this, it tends to really hurt their testimony so it isn't really helping as far as I can see. And of course the third part is that I think we are putting them on a pedestal. This has changed a LOT since I was a kid.

Now to make matters even worse... its mostly just lip service or hypocrisy. We hammer on follow the prophet, etc but rarely actually do that. I thought about showing some examples, but our whole church history is full of them and so I'll just let everyone think of their own. I think our culture needs to change again soon or we will become as the pharisees or perhaps many already are.

I think these problems are somewhat related. I know from talking with older people and reading some history that it used to be acceptable within the church to have disagreements with leaders, even the prophet. Take the story of Edward bunker for one example, he stood up to Wilford Woodruff. Woodruff was teaching and insisting on Brigham Young's Adam is God doctrine (which also disproves Wilford Woodruffs statement that he can never lead you astray). Bunker was just a lowly bishop but he spoke his mind, used his scriptures are argued against President Woodruff and was not excommunicated. He was reprimanded, but allowed to continue and eventually became a patriarch. Of course, today, everyone believes like Bunker, no one would take President Woodruff's side. Now to get back on track here, today, any disagreement or dissent from what church leaders say is seen as apostasy. We are strongly pressured to agree with them 100% and we have all kinds of false teachings to push this idea. I won't bother listing them all.

Well, so what does that really accomplish? Members become afraid to admit they disagree with anything and so they give lip service. I feel like we are literally training our children to become pharisees because of this. I'll give a quick personal example. Scouts. I have not supported scouts since they started allowing gays in years ago. You would not believe how many people told me I needed to ignore my conscience, that I could not possibly be right, etc because the church supported scouts so it must be right. We even had an entire sacrament meeting dedicated to scouts last year where we paraded young men up to the stand to give talks like how camping is similar to Joseph smith in the first grove and other crap like that. Well, as the situation worsened, more and more people started quietly withdrawing support for scouts while giving lip service at church. My father in law told me that last year, for the first time ever, the scouts in his ward have less money than the girl's program because almost no one donated to scouts (which is the real reason its being dropped imho), yet until the church officially withdrew, everyone kept insisting scouts were good, etc. Even at its best, scouting wasn't for everyone. I think scouting can be good for some, but for others it is a miserable experience. We have no business treating it like its part of the gospel or trying to force it onto everyone. We are training this lip service pharisee stuff into our kids. Much like how we parade our kids up to the stand on testimony day and tell them to lie and say they know the church is true. I've seen kids that can barely walk, can't even tie their own shoes, and yet I'm supposed to believe they know the church is true? They can't remember president Monson's name without help but they know he's a prophet? I know its well meaning, but I can't agree with teaching kids to lie or encouraging them to give lip service and pretend the church is right about everything. Is it any wonder outsiders see us as a cult with that going on in our meetings. Everything we teach kids should be true and validate their faith. Giving lip service and putting leaders on a pedestal will only undermine their faith in the long run from what I've seen because eventually they'll get on the internet and find out what they've been taught isn't really true.

Anyway, I hope this is making sense. I know I tend to ramble. I think we all want the same thing here. We want to help others increase their faith and grow their testimonies. I'm just not convinced that the best way to do that is to put leaders on a pedestal. I think we need to fix this. I think we need to get things more balanced, treat the leaders with respect for sure, but also teach truly that they can, and have been wrong, and its ok not to agree with them on everything such as things that are just their opinions or extraneous to the gospel like scouts was. Why do we never discuss what Joseph Smith taught about the role of a prophet? He was wrong on occasion and had no problem sharing and explaining about it. Or what about the words of Joseph Fielding Smith:

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine” (Doctrines of Salvation,3:203).

Ever heard that taught in Church? I haven't, but I think its right. The church is very selective about what they quote in manuals and talks from past presidents of the church. We only talk about things that make them seem like they are always right, always speaking for God, etc. Then one day, a person hops on the internet and finds all the things the church hasn't taught that past presidents have said and feels betrayed because what they've been taught was clearly not the truth, or at least not the whole truth. All that work hammering follow the prophet into that individual backfires and they get angry and quit the church.

There's an article from Greg Trimble I really like that relates.
https://www.gregtrimble.com/3-types-mormons-last-days/

[Rensai]

I have more pressing things to do in life than to worry about whether I'm giving some special honor to some man or some set of men. All people deserve my respect and honor equally. What good do I accomplish by setting aside some special place in my heart for certain men? I honor God when I treat all of His children, and my brothers and sisters, with the dignity they deserve.

Thus saith the Lord, "Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another..."

I am not saying that I should not honor the apostles, I'm saying that I should not honor them above anyone else. Mostly, because that is what God plainly said. I believe Him and wish to obey Him in all things. And, lastly, it feels right to me to not esteem one flesh above another. And, no man should think himself above another. In other words, the apostles should not expect to be honored or esteemed above anyone else. If they do, they are sinning.

-Finrock

Thanks Finrock, that's about as plain an answer as you can get.

[Gage]

You should listen to the Prophets council, thats about it. I dont think the Prophet desires or expects to be treated differently or honored.

[Finrock]

Yes, I absolutely agree that we are all the body of Christ and every part is important and needed. However, some parts are more important than others. And guess what, there's nothing wrong with that - it's the way God organized our bodies, and His Church. I no longer have an appendix and I'm still alive. How many people do you know who are still alive without their heart, or their head? Some parts of our body are more vital and important than others. Christ is the head of the body of the Church; without him we would be dead - both individually, and collectively as a Church. As such He is worthy of all praise and glory. The Prophets, Seers, and Revelators are right up there too, and without them we would die as well, as happened to the early Church during the Great Apostasy. As such they too are worthy of honor and respect befitting their role. Me, on the other hand, may just be a red blood cell, doing my little part, and if I were lost or detached from the body it would have an impact - however little that might be - but the body of the Church would keep on living and functioning without me. Am I important? Sure! But I'm not deluded enough to think I'm just as important as the head or heart of the body. Furthermore, and since we are all one body, me giving praise to the head (Jesus Christ) helps add to the glory of the entire body - including myself. Same thing for giving glory and honor to my parents, or my spouse, or the Prophets. As their glory increases so too, I find, does mine.

This is what Paul says:

12For just as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body being many are one body, so also is Christ. 13For also in one Spirit we all were baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one Spirit.

14For also the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” not on account of this is it not of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” not on account of this is it not of the body. 17If all the body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If all were hearing, where would be the sense of smell?

18But now God has arranged the members, each one of them in the body, as He desired. 19And if all were one member, where would be the body? 20But now indeed, there are many members, but one body.

21Now the eye is not able to say to the hand, “I have no need of you.” Or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22But much rather, those members of the body seeming to be weaker are necessary, 23and those of the body we think to be less honorable, these we bestow more abundant honor. And our unpresentable parts have more abundant decorum, 24but our presentable parts have no need.

But God has composed the body, having given more abundant honor to the parts being deficient, 25that there should be no division in the body, but the members should have the same concern for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Said, Paul, "much rather those members of the body seeming to be weaker are necessary and those of the body we think be less honorable, these we bestow more abundant honor..."

If anything, it seems those we think are less important parts of the body should be given more honor, not the other way around, and those parts which seem weaker are necessary.

And, let me emphasize, "But God has composed the body, having given more abundant honor to the parts being deficient, 25that there should be no division in the body, but the members should have the same concern for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. "

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Imagine if we honored the poor and the needy or the weakest among us with "more honor" as Paul said? Hasn't the top become too lofty, even by our own making? Do we focus too much on the top, creating inequality in how we treat others?

I think so.

-Finrock

[JohnnyL]

Yeah, it's ok to jump on a board and say all kinds of un-Christlike things to others, just like we wouldn't say them to the apostles. It's easier to put them on a pedestal, though, than to remember:
D&C 42: 38 For inasmuch as ye do it unto the least of these, ye do it unto me.

Matt. 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

But hey, that mote in your eye...

///
Some food for thought:
DC64:6 There are those who have sought occasion against him (JS, Jr) without cause;
7 Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death.

If JS sinned so often, I have little reason to believe that apostles don't sin.

DC 112:11 I know thy heart, and have heard thy prayers concerning thy brethren. Be not partial towards them in love above many others, but let thy love be for them as for thyself; and let thy love abound unto all men, and unto all who love my name.
12 And pray for thy brethren of the Twelve. Admonish them sharply for my name’s sake, and let them be admonished for all their sins, and be ye faithful before me unto my name.

///
I hope I do not worship nor reverence the opinions of men. I see them often, even in GC talks. Is it ok to drink caffeine soft drinks every day? Is it ok to belittle others who believe differently than you? Is it ok to cherry pick the least important part of a confidential report and seek out vengeance? There are not things that I will believe are ok because "well, the apostle/ [church calling] does it", nor things are not ok because "well, the apostle/ [church calling] doesn't do it". Heard that all my life; that was a great excuse in our family to justify what we knew was wrong.

I do point out things I believe were/ are wrong. I am unhappy with lots of those things. I try (and if I fail, I sin) to not attach that to who they are (other than human) or what position they serve in. I believe there is a difference between speaking evil of someone, and speaking of things that can lead others wrong. I try to follow the rules: Pray for them. Let conversation be good. If you have a problem, tell them. Don't try to justify your own wrongdoing because of them (in any way). Love them. If someone asks me about a church leader at any level, and I have the Spirit, it's not right to point out sins, faults, etc.--though things might come up (paragraph above) in a conversation that might need to be questioned or pointed out.

I don't believe even a fallen prophet is to be railed against:
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

DC 50:32 And it shall be given unto you, power over that spirit; and you shall proclaim against that spirit with a loud voice that it is not of God—
33 Not with railing accusation, that ye be not overcome, neither with boasting nor rejoicing, lest you be seized therewith.

D&C 60:7 And in this place let them lift up their voice and declare my word with loud voices, without wrath or doubting, lifting up holy hands upon them. For I am able to make you holy, and your sins are forgiven you.

///
If a prophet is cut off, the church does not and will not fail. It's not the person, but a calling. (The Lord was clear about that, warning JS that same thing more than once in the DC.) The Great Apostacy came because members (little red blood cells, arms, etc.) rebelled and killed the head, so to say.