Tired of LDS culture

[AI2.0]

The church and the gospel are inextricably tied together. You can't have the gospel without the church or the church without the gospel. That's why Jesus restored his gospel and set up a church when it became corrupted and why Joseph Smith Jr. was called to restore it in the latter days--within the framework of a church.

What is being complained about on this thread is LDS culture, which is not the church or the gospel.

Maybe this is where the disconnect is between those of use who are pointing out problems in the church, and those who are defending the church as being perfect. I think of the church as the group of people who are members. This seems to be the definition Mormon uses, at least:

And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.

By your definition, Mormon here should be subjected to reprimand for saying the church was wicked, and causing problems.

I believe the gospel is perfect, but we members are imperfect, and our understanding of the gospel is flawed and incomplete, and so the church is not perfect, even though I do believe our church leaders are still the sole possessors of the priesthood keys on earth. I think we need a healthy dose of humility, and that includes being able to acknowledge our problems, so we can deal with them. If we can't do this, we wind up blaming the victims, and that is sad injustice, and something I believe God holds us accountable for, both individually and collectively.

Only if you are some kind of literalist or a member of this forum. ;) I wouldn't reprimand Mormon because I know what he's talking about, he makes complete sense to me. 'Church' can have different meanings depending on the context. He's not accusing the 'church' of being wicked he's accusing the 'church' of being wicked. Simples.

[BTH&T]

No, I don't have the pure love of Christ. I'm aware of it and I'm working on it.
No, I don't believe I've judged irrelevant harshly. I'm not sure I've judged him at all. I've given him some things to think about if he so chooses.
No, I don't feel I'm superior to anyone.
Am I a better Mormon? I don't think this is a Mormon thing. We deal with people in all facets of life, in all organizations. School, politics, work, Wal*Mart etc.
I have no issues with people sharing their concerns about church. Obviously I can disagree with some of them and I can offer suggestions for others. It's not like I'm disagreeing that people at church sometimes teach their own interpretations or that some leaders dominate un-righteously. I think there's a proper way to deal with those issues and I think there are lame ways to deal with it. It's not like anyone here is going to talk to irrelevant's kid's Primary teacher and correct her. So what is it that irrelevant wants? That's such a small thing to have a concern over, as most things are. I suggested he and others like him show forth a little charity towards those at church. Instead of looking for how others treat him, he should look at how he can treat others. Most of them are trying to be good people but people suck sometimes. There is a term called making a mountain out of a molehill. That's what this thread is about. But how to get those mountain seeing people to see that it's just a little molehill is tricky, and other than being blunt, I don't know how to do it. I don't fence sit, I call it like I see it.
I wouldn't make a good psychologist. In the following scene, Bob is sharing his irrelevant concerns, like in the OP-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjicY84RV4c

As far as it being OK to criticize, I'd refer you to President Uchtdorf-

"While looking for a new home, a young Latter-day Saint couple talked to potential neighbors about the neighborhood and the schools in the area.

One woman they spoke to said of the school her children were attending: “This is the most incredible place! The principal is a wonderful and good man; the teachers are well qualified, kind, and friendly. I am so pleased that our children can attend this wonderful school. You’ll love it here!”

A different woman (Whose name is irrelevant) said of her children’s school: “It’s a terrible place. The principal is self-absorbed; the teachers are unqualified, rude, and unfriendly. If I could afford to move out of this area, I’d do it in a heartbeat!”

The interesting thing was that both women were speaking about the same principal, the same teachers, and the same school.

Have you ever noticed that people can usually find whatever they are looking for? Look hard enough, and you can discover both good and bad in almost anyone and anything. People have done the same with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since its beginning. Those who look for the good will find a kind and compassionate people—a people who love the Lord and desire to serve Him and bless the lives of their fellowman. But it is also true that those who look for the bad will certainly find things that are not so ideal.

Unfortunately, at times this happens even within the Church. There is no end to the creativity, ingenuity, and tenacity of those who look for reasons to criticize. They cannot seem to release their grip on grudges. They gossip and find fault with others. They nurse wounds for decades, taking every opportunity to tear down and demean others. This is not pleasing to the Lord, “for where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work” (James 3:16)."

Notice how you and others, like irrelevant, see the church with all the imperfect people. Notice how I and some other see it. We find what we're looking for. I suggest you look for the good. I'd love to see irrelevant rejoin the church and be a happy, productive member but my personality isn't to cottle adult matters as if they're little kids. When my kids were 3 and had a little scratch and wanted a band-aid, I'd get one for them. When they were 8 and had a little scratch and wanted a band-aid I'd tell them they didn't need one. To be honest, I see these little issues in the OP as childish. To come on the web and gripe about these things shows a maturity level that's lacking. I don't hate anyone for doing it but since they asked for advice and responses I'll certainly oblige. I'll go back to my original advice a few pages ago- have faith, hope and charity. Even at church!

Great post, I have to say THANKS twice!

My flaws are many and I am abrasive to most, not that I look down on anyone or that I feel superior to anyone. I certainly know I am not.
My issue is a lack of patience, and a lack of long-suffering.
Some things are so clear and I have troubles when I can't see others getting the plain and precious parts of life.

It really is easy to understand things when one knows the "who, what and why" they are on this beautiful Earth.
Understanding is one thing, "doing" is the hard part.

As you pointed out, we need to have faith, hope and charity. Even with our fellow Saints!

[Finrock]

There is no need to get defensive when someone speaks negatively about the Church or if one perceives something negative in what is being said.

My observations are that some people are so enmeshed with the Church, Church culture, Church policy, and Church life that anything that is mentioned about the Church that is not absolutely positive causes their hackles to raise up and they immediately move to the defensive or attempt to attack any perceived threat that they see to their identity and way of life. This reaction can be so strong, it seems, that people are willing to forgo kindness or charity to put down the threat. Anyone who reacts this way is acting, ironically, out of a sense of insecurity about themselves and their Church.

I used to be this way, to be honest. I used to not be able to bear to hear anything but flattering things about the Church. Often people who were not members or not as enmeshed as I was would comment things about the Church and if they could be construed in a negative way I would feel obligated to defend the faith, so to speak. I would feel upset, annoyed, aggravated, or even angry at times. However, I don't react or really feel the same any more because of the experiences that I have had. God, I believe, has shown me a better way and I now understand that my identity is not the Church, but that I am first and foremost a child of God.

There is very much good in the Church but there us also bad in the Church. I'm no longer afraid to confront the bad things as I was before. I'm also not as sensitive to what other people say about the Church. I'm less inclined to judge comments or ideas about the Church that some people have as attacks against the Church, my faith, or myself. I have seen how my own blindness and my own Rose colored glasses did not allow me to deal with reality and truth as it is or how it was. It was my own inability to admit any fault at all that actually was causing me to misinterpret comments or to take negative ideas about the Church as deeply personal, thus robbing me of my peace and joy.

I like how BruceRGilbert says judging is for identification and not condemnation. It is not my place to judge how bad, big, or serious of an issue something might be to another. We are all at different stages. Regardless of what they say or do I should act charitably towards them. I should try to understand where others are coming from and to address sincere concerns with compassion and kindness and to let insincere concerns used to attack and to tear down, to roll off my back like I'm covered in Rain X.

Most members and people who voice concerns about the Church are good, honest, faithful people. There is no need to judge their faith or to question it. My compassionate reaction to their grief might be the start of healing for them and perhaps I can be an instrument in God's hand in helping them find their way. My judging, my condemnation, my accusations, my attacks, my belittling and so forth can have the opposite effect and that behavior reflects on who my true Master is.

-Finrock

[Durzan]

My observations are that some people are so enmeshed with the Church, Church culture, Church policy, and Church life that anything that is mentioned about the Church that is not absolutely positive causes their hackles to raise up and they immediately move to the defensive or attempt to attack any perceived threat that they see to their identity and way of life. This reaction can be so strong, it seems, that people are willing to forgo kindness or charity to put down the threat. Anyone who reacts this way is acting, ironically, out of a sense of insecurity about themselves and their Church.

Such reactions are symptoms of pride.

[shadow]

There is no need to get defensive when someone speaks negatively about the Church or if one perceives something negative in what is being said.



-Finrock

On that same token there's no reason to get offended or get defensive when someone teaches something wrong, interprets something differently or lives a culture that you're "tired of". But you wouldn't want to point that out, right?? #-o

We all choose our sides, hopefully without hypocrisy.

[Finrock]

There is no need to get defensive when someone speaks negatively about the Church or if one perceives something negative in what is being said.



-Finrock

On that same token there's no reason to get offended or get defensive when someone teaches something wrong, interprets something differently or lives a culture that you're "tired of". But you wouldn't want to point that out, right?? #-o

We all choose our sides, hopefully without hypocrisy.

I think my comments apply across the board. Are you reacting defensively to my comments?

-Finrock

[shadow]

There is no need to get defensive when someone speaks negatively about the Church or if one perceives something negative in what is being said.



-Finrock

On that same token there's no reason to get offended or get defensive when someone teaches something wrong, interprets something differently or lives a culture that you're "tired of". But you wouldn't want to point that out, right?? #-o

We all choose our sides, hopefully without hypocrisy.

Are you reacting defensively to my comments?

-Finrock

Not at all. Are you reacting defensively to my posts?

[Finrock]

Here is a post that was posted in another area of the forum and I thought it applied to the subject in this thread and provided an important insight to consider.

Some people like to explore the borders and beyond (even leave the pack/group) and others like to keep to the center and safety of the pack/group - and the twain shall rarely see eye to eye. Also, the unorthodox are often persecuted, judged, and made to feel unsafe when they depart from the orthodox groupthink (yes, it is groupthink and departures from it are punished - "you're not a good LDS member/person because you don't agree with the Church leaders (i.e person's perception of the current orthodox opinion), etc."). This has actually forced many of us to resort to anonymity to avoid certain TBM-types "doing their duty" to report us to our priesthood leaders as apostates, etc. Ridiculous. It's enough to have driven many people to actually jump overboard. Just my take.

Groupthink is a hard obstacle to overcome, but, if we are ever going to be a Zion people, these are the types of issues we will need to overcome as a people. I know to some comments like this might seem like needlessly bringing up the negative or they will be outright denied, but, what may not be considered and understood is that the reason why speaking about the negative or issues is not so that something can be destroyed or put down, but rather so that something can be improved upon or made better. Usually when faithful members of the Church speak about negative things they've experienced it is with the hope of having things improved. I know that there are people with other motivations, but there will always be those type of people until the millennium and so we can't treat everyone like an enemy or suppose that they are an enemy when they aren't speaking positive things or necessarily flattering things about the Church and their experiences in the Church. They might just be motivated by a desire to root out things that are not good or which ultimately prevent us from being a Zion people.

Here is another thing to consider. Most people are good but even when they are good people in general, fear and insecurity can cause them to act out in contradiction to their natures. However, it is also true that there are individuals within our number who are actively opposed to the idea of Zion and any idea that would tend to promote and bring us towards Zion will be met with great resistance from these individuals. Of course they will never admit that they are against Zion and so their contention against the principles of Zion will be guised and obfuscated so as to appear that they support Zion or they will contend that "All is well in Zion" and nothing needs to be done because the people are doing good and are right on track. In any case, the true team to be on, is on the team of life, light, and truth. These ideas are independent of any group or institution. They surpass institutional indoctrination and they encompass all things. When we confront issues in life that are opposed to life, light, and truth, or Christ, no matter where we confront these issues, we should stand united against them and stand united in favor of Christ, or life, light, and truth. In any case, I'm starting to digress...I guess my point is that not everyone who has a concern or has an issue within the Church is opposed to the Church an enemy of the Church, or opposed to Zion. In fact, they may just be motivated by a desire to bring about Zion and to promote life, light, and truth.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

There is no need to get defensive when someone speaks negatively about the Church or if one perceives something negative in what is being said.



-Finrock

On that same token there's no reason to get offended or get defensive when someone teaches something wrong, interprets something differently or lives a culture that you're "tired of". But you wouldn't want to point that out, right?? #-o

We all choose our sides, hopefully without hypocrisy.

Are you reacting defensively to my comments?

-Finrock

Not at all. Are you reacting defensively to my posts?

Then what does the "D'oh" represent? What in my post would indicate that I'm reacting defensively? You seemed to take issue with what I was saying. Your post implies that someone is taking sides and doing so with hypocrisy. But, I'm glad you've now clarified.

-Finrock

[shadow]

Then what does the "D'oh" represent? What in my post would indicate that I'm reacting defensively? You seemed to take issue with what I was saying. Your post implies that someone is taking sides and doing so with hypocrisy. But, I'm glad you've now clarified.

-Finrock

I wasn't taking much issue with your post, just pointing out what looks like hypocrisy. My #-o post explains it clear enough, I think. If a person comes here under the name of "irrevelant", NOWmormon", "houseoforder" and a few others, to gripe about the church, you're on his side. That's fine. No big deal to me. But when others like me point out issues with those gripes, then, for you, we're getting defensive. Then you lecture us by saying there's no reason to get defensive when someone has something negative to say about the church. I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to get defensive when someone questions that negativity. That's not me getting defensive, it doesn't really bother me what you do, I was just pointing out the inconsistency.

[Finrock]

Then what does the "D'oh" represent? What in my post would indicate that I'm reacting defensively? You seemed to take issue with what I was saying. Your post implies that someone is taking sides and doing so with hypocrisy. But, I'm glad you've now clarified.

-Finrock

I wasn't taking much issue with your post, just pointing out what looks like hypocrisy. My #-o post explains it clear enough, I think. If a person comes here under the name of "irrevelant", NOWmormon", "houseoforder" and a few others, to gripe about the church, you're on his side. That's fine. No big deal to me. But when others like me point out issues with those gripes, then, for you, we're getting defensive. Then you lecture us by saying there's no reason to get defensive when someone has something negative to say about the church. I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to get defensive when someone questions that negativity. That's not me getting defensive, it doesn't really bother me what you do, I was just pointing out the inconsistency.

Sounds like you are being defensive after all. I made a general statement and didn't point to any particular person. I shared my feelings and my experiences in life. You seem to feel like my comments applied to you. Only you can be the judge of whether my comments applied to you but my comments were general in nature, they were my experiences, and I was mostly talking about my own life and my own behavior in the past, but you saw yourself in them feeling like you were being lectured. Okay.

-Finrock

[Rensai]

I'm reminded of what the Savior said regarding the wheat and the tares. The servants wanted to forcibly remove the tares from the field, but the Savior forbade them to do so until the time of the harvest arrived. They are here, and to an extent they are necessary.
The better question is whether you are a wheat or a tare. Does wheat complain about the tares?

Got me pondering Iwrite! So I did some research on wheat and tares, came across this interesting article:


" The Wheat, The Tare, and The Weed. by Lady LaShonda

We all know this parable taught by Jesus....
There was a farmer who planted his seeds. He fell asleep and another farmer planted his seeds in the same field as the first planter. When the harvest came, the wheat grew along with tares and weeds.
First let me explain something.....
For the second farmer to plant his seed in the same field was an out-right disrespect to the first farmer. Back then the only time that a second farmer planted on the same field as another represented a deep hatred. Problem was, the first farmer knew who their enemy was and could bring him to death for such. Times were too hard to have crops destroyed because of hostilities and hatred for one another. In today's world, that would be considered fighting grounds. In the political world, this act was a declaration of war.

This part is interesting, but I'm not sure its important or adds anything that matters. We already know the first planter is christ, the second is satan, its kind of obvious its a war and that the second hates the first.

Now it is easy to tell the difference between the wheat, tare, and the weed. The wheat is longer, bigger, and stronger. The tare is shorter, medium sized, and weaker. The weed is the shortest, smallest, and the weakest...The weed doesn't produce any seeds. The tare produces some seeds. The wheat produces the biggest seeds.
The farmer's helper wanted to pull up the weeds and the tares but was forbidden. The farmer told him to let them grow together. If any of the weeds or tares were pulled out, it could destroy the roots of the wheat. Best to wait until full grown to pull out.
Now get this SAINTS.....
To the non-farmers, knowing this difference wouldn't be so easy to decipher. In truth they all look the same viewing it with the naked eye. Same for some of the women and men in the church. From the distance and even close up, everyone looks like wheat. Some having the form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof. They look like they are saved, sanctified, and Holy Ghost filled until they reach the threshing floor...
The threshing floor is a place where the seeds were separated from the vine. This is a painful time in a Christians life because it is where tests, trials, and tribulations comes to prove the faith. One can tell what Christian is victorious through the seeds produced. We all are overcommers by the blood of the Lamb and the WORD of our testimony. For this cause, our seeds should be edible....

This is clarified in D&C 86, the servants are angels, they have no problem at all differentiating between the wheat and the tares.

4 But behold, in the last days, even now while the Lord is beginning to bring forth the word, and the blade is springing up and is yet tender—

5 Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields;

6 But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also.

No mention that the angels will have any difficulty identifying tares, just that removing them may harm the wheat as well because their faith is weak.

Understand this people....
The seeds from wheat are heavy and full. They look very different when full grown. They bow to the wind. Therefore when you see the wheat at its peak, and ready for harvest, they all are bent according to which way the wind blew...
The Holy Spirit will cause us to stay on bended knees. These are those who spent time with the Lord and obeyed his WORD to the letter. They had no other choice because the seeds that were planted in them were too strong and mighty to stand upright with pride...

Sounds good, but its really not true. None of us obey God to the letter, we'd be perfect then and of course we have a choice and still have problems with pride, philosophies of men, etc. I'll refer back to 2 Nephi 28 that I quoted earlier. Ironically, statements like this only increase pride, as we all read this we think, yeah that's me, I'm wheat and it sounds like i'm so good!

In truth, none of us are very good. Nephi saw our day and the very best words he has to say about any of us are:

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Yay us, if we're really really good and trying to follow Christ.. we're still erring often because we harken to the precepts of men. Doesn't much sound like we're obeying god's word to the letter. That right there is an example of mixing in the philosophies of men.

The tare is prideful and boastful. They are stubborn, reprobated, and self endowed. They act like wheat. BUT GET THIS PEOPLE...If you eat the seeds from the tare, it cause severe nausea, produces vomit, severe headaches, and a host of other illnesses. BE VERY CAREFUL SAINTS AS TO WHO YOU LET FEED YOUR SPIRIT. The tare's job is to choke the life out of the wheat. Some of you sit next to these types of people in churches, at home, and in the workplace. This is the reason for sanctification.
SANCTIFICATION doesn't mean holiness. It doesn't mean being righteous either. You can righteously stand for any cause and hold to it. SANCTIFICANTION simply means being set apart.
You know you are sanctified when the tare doesn't affect you in any way.
You know you are sanctified when you no longer do the things you've done in the past."

Eeating tares is bad, ok, I'll agree.. but once again, the author is wrong about part of this statement. Sanctification does not simply mean being set apart.

LDS.org says sanctification is: The process of becoming free from sin, pure, clean, and holy through the Atonement of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:59–60).

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Sure looks like a lot more than simply being set apart.

It was interesting to read and I'm glad it was posted, I like parts of it, but it should also serve as an example and a warning to show exactly how easily the philosophies of men are shared around and accepted within our church.

While we're on the subject of the wheat and the tares though, let me correct one more common mistake. I always hear it said that the tares will be gathered out and burned when the time is right and there will only wheat left. That is actually exactly backwards to what the scriptures say.

7 Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.

First the wheat is gathered out, then the tares are left to be bundled and burned. So it is actually the wheat that is gathered out and removed from the field. I don't know if the distinction is important, but it could be. Always best to be as precise and correct as possible imho.

[shadow]

Then what does the "D'oh" represent? What in my post would indicate that I'm reacting defensively? You seemed to take issue with what I was saying. Your post implies that someone is taking sides and doing so with hypocrisy. But, I'm glad you've now clarified.

-Finrock

I wasn't taking much issue with your post, just pointing out what looks like hypocrisy. My #-o post explains it clear enough, I think. If a person comes here under the name of "irrevelant", NOWmormon", "houseoforder" and a few others, to gripe about the church, you're on his side. That's fine. No big deal to me. But when others like me point out issues with those gripes, then, for you, we're getting defensive. Then you lecture us by saying there's no reason to get defensive when someone has something negative to say about the church. I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to get defensive when someone questions that negativity. That's not me getting defensive, it doesn't really bother me what you do, I was just pointing out the inconsistency.

Sounds like you are being defensive after all. I made a general statement and didn't point to any particular person. I shared my feelings and my experiences in life. You seem to feel like my comments applied to you. Only you can be the judge of whether my comments applied to you but my comments were general in nature, they were my experiences, and I was mostly talking about my own life and my own behavior in the past, but you saw yourself in them feeling like you were being lectured. Okay.

-Finrock

Sounds like you're being defensive.

[Finrock]

:))

Then what does the "D'oh" represent? What in my post would indicate that I'm reacting defensively? You seemed to take issue with what I was saying. Your post implies that someone is taking sides and doing so with hypocrisy. But, I'm glad you've now clarified.

-Finrock

I wasn't taking much issue with your post, just pointing out what looks like hypocrisy. My #-o post explains it clear enough, I think. If a person comes here under the name of "irrevelant", NOWmormon", "houseoforder" and a few others, to gripe about the church, you're on his side. That's fine. No big deal to me. But when others like me point out issues with those gripes, then, for you, we're getting defensive. Then you lecture us by saying there's no reason to get defensive when someone has something negative to say about the church. I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to get defensive when someone questions that negativity. That's not me getting defensive, it doesn't really bother me what you do, I was just pointing out the inconsistency.

Sounds like you are being defensive after all. I made a general statement and didn't point to any particular person. I shared my feelings and my experiences in life. You seem to feel like my comments applied to you. Only you can be the judge of whether my comments applied to you but my comments were general in nature, they were my experiences, and I was mostly talking about my own life and my own behavior in the past, but you saw yourself in them feeling like you were being lectured. Okay.

-Finrock

Sounds like you're being defensive.

:))

-Finrock

[Rensai]

The church and the gospel are inextricably tied together. You can't have the gospel without the church or the church without the gospel. That's why Jesus restored his gospel and set up a church when it became corrupted and why Joseph Smith Jr. was called to restore it in the latter days--within the framework of a church.

What is being complained about on this thread is LDS culture, which is not the church or the gospel.

Maybe this is where the disconnect is between those of use who are pointing out problems in the church, and those who are defending the church as being perfect. I think of the church as the group of people who are members. This seems to be the definition Mormon uses, at least:

And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.

By your definition, Mormon here should be subjected to reprimand for saying the church was wicked, and causing problems.

I believe the gospel is perfect, but we members are imperfect, and our understanding of the gospel is flawed and incomplete, and so the church is not perfect, even though I do believe our church leaders are still the sole possessors of the priesthood keys on earth. I think we need a healthy dose of humility, and that includes being able to acknowledge our problems, so we can deal with them. If we can't do this, we wind up blaming the victims, and that is sad injustice, and something I believe God holds us accountable for, both individually and collectively.

Only if you are some kind of literalist or a member of this forum. ;) I wouldn't reprimand Mormon because I know what he's talking about, he makes complete sense to me. 'Church' can have different meanings depending on the context. He's not accusing the 'church' of being wicked he's accusing the 'church' of being wicked. Simples.

I think God is literal unless he says otherwise such as when giving a vision, dream, or parable. He is also precise and meticulous, he has to be to be perfect. For an example, just look at how he describes the procedures for the ancient israelites to perform their sacrifices. Such precise and meticulous instruction. When we are imprecise in our language we invite errors, that is why language in legal documents is so precise and well defined. I think its important to be as exact as possible and I think h_p's quote is correct, as are all the scriptures and things I've posted that show God does differentiate between the church and the gospel. To me it looks like you're willfully choosing to be imprecise, to ignore the clear, plain reading of the scriptures that have been posted. Its up to you, but that invites errors. If you want to call the Gospel "the Church" and the church, "the church," go ahead, but I only see that as sowing confusion.

[BTH&T]

................ I don't know if the distinction is important, but it could be. Always best to be as precise and correct as possible imho.

Just to clarify;
The author is not LDS
This was not to point to any specific interpretation or doctrine, I just thought it illustrated some thoughts in a way some could find interesting from others perspectives.

[Rensai]

................ I don't know if the distinction is important, but it could be. Always best to be as precise and correct as possible imho.

Just to clarify;
The author is not LDS
This was not to point to any specific interpretation or doctrine, I just thought it illustrated some thoughts in a way some could find interesting from others perspectives.

Yeah I kind of figured the author wasn't LDS and I am really glad you shared it. I hope my critique didn't offend you, that wasn't the goal at all. But like I said, people do use this kind of stuff in church lessons all the time without checking it against the scriptures and I thought it was relevant to the discussion to use it as an example of how easily we get the philosophies of men passed around in the church; which I pointed out to hep illustrate the difference between the church and the gospel again. Our culture really does have a lot of problems that are making life hard for many. I also want to add though, that while I do think there are some big problems and I would like to see more open discussion and attempts to address the problems, etc I also do feel like our church has more of the truth and teaches the gospel better than any other. I am NOT saying its better to quit the church and go it alone or anything like that. I just think that for some, they need to know that not all policies, practices, teachings, etc come from the gospel. Some are just from us flawed mortals and if you feel let down, betrayed , or whatever, hang in there anyway and hold to the perfect gospel and the savior, make him your rock. That's what I wanted to say to Irrelevant and anyone else who feels like that. Right now, I can't think of many things more depressing or sad than seeing someone give up on the gospel and our Savior at this late point in time. The millennium can't be far off. Seeing people get discouraged and quit now is like watching the lead guy in a race trip a foot away from the finish line or something. I hate seeing it.

[BTH&T]

No offense taken at all!

[shadow]

:))

I wasn't taking much issue with your post, just pointing out what looks like hypocrisy. My #-o post explains it clear enough, I think. If a person comes here under the name of "irrevelant", NOWmormon", "houseoforder" and a few others, to gripe about the church, you're on his side. That's fine. No big deal to me. But when others like me point out issues with those gripes, then, for you, we're getting defensive. Then you lecture us by saying there's no reason to get defensive when someone has something negative to say about the church. I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to get defensive when someone questions that negativity. That's not me getting defensive, it doesn't really bother me what you do, I was just pointing out the inconsistency.

Sounds like you are being defensive after all. I made a general statement and didn't point to any particular person. I shared my feelings and my experiences in life. You seem to feel like my comments applied to you. Only you can be the judge of whether my comments applied to you but my comments were general in nature, they were my experiences, and I was mostly talking about my own life and my own behavior in the past, but you saw yourself in them feeling like you were being lectured. Okay.

-Finrock

Sounds like you're being defensive.

:))

-Finrock

Here's the thing- it wasn't a general statement, it was a pointed one. This is what you said-
"There is no need to get defensive when someone speaks negatively about the Church or if one perceives something negative in what is being said."

Notice how you didn't say there's no need to get defensive when a Primary teacher tells your kid not to drink a Coke? Or no need to get defensive when you find out that the church doesn't blatantly teach that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? No, it's don't get defensive when someone is negative towards the church, period. It doesn't work both ways with you. I'm not upset about the hypocrisy, we're all hypocrites at times, I just wanted to point it out for you to see. If it doesn't bother you or if you disagree, please don't get defensive.

And just to be clear, while I will defend the church, I'm not defensive about it. The OP wanted a discussion about it so he got one. No need to be defensive about that by complaining that people are getting defensive. I'm fine if irrelevant had a relevant complaint. I'd be happy to discuss that too. He can also start that discussion if he thinks of something relevant. And if people respond opposite of his thoughts, then that isn't necessarily being defensive either since the discussion was asked for.

[Finrock]

:))

Sounds like you are being defensive after all. I made a general statement and didn't point to any particular person. I shared my feelings and my experiences in life. You seem to feel like my comments applied to you. Only you can be the judge of whether my comments applied to you but my comments were general in nature, they were my experiences, and I was mostly talking about my own life and my own behavior in the past, but you saw yourself in them feeling like you were being lectured. Okay.

-Finrock

Sounds like you're being defensive.

:))

-Finrock

Here's the thing- it wasn't a general statement, it was a pointed one. This is what you said-
"There is no need to get defensive when someone speaks negatively about the Church or if one perceives something negative in what is being said."

Notice how you didn't say there's no need to get defensive when a Primary teacher tells your kid not to drink a Coke? Or no need to get defensive when you find out that the church doesn't blatantly teach that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? No, it's don't get defensive when someone is negative towards the church, period. It doesn't work both ways with you. I'm not upset about the hypocrisy, we're all hypocrites at times, I just wanted to point it out for you to see. If it doesn't bother you or if you disagree, please don't get defensive.

And just to be clear, while I will defend the church, I'm not defensive about it. The OP wanted a discussion about it so he got one. No need to be defensive about that by complaining that people are getting defensive. I'm fine if irrelevant had a relevant complaint. I'd be happy to discuss that too. He can also start that discussion if he thinks of something relevant. And if people respond opposite of his thoughts, then that isn't necessarily being defensive either since the discussion was asked for.

You are mistaken. I was speaking to a general principle or an idea and speaking only specifically about my own behavior and experiences. It is you who decided that it applied to you and that you felt "lectured to", not me.

-Finrock

[shadow]

"I was speaking to a general principle"-
You keep saying that, but you really did say this-
"There is no need to get defensive when someone speaks negatively about the Church"
Generally speaking, if you were generally speaking you wouldn't have specified those who you feel get defensive when something negative is said about the church. But you specified them and not really anyone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fchC0Dscm9I

[Irrelevant]

................ I don't know if the distinction is important, but it could be. Always best to be as precise and correct as possible imho.

Just to clarify;
The author is not LDS
This was not to point to any specific interpretation or doctrine, I just thought it illustrated some thoughts in a way some could find interesting from others perspectives.

Yeah I kind of figured the author wasn't LDS and I am really glad you shared it. I hope my critique didn't offend you, that wasn't the goal at all. But like I said, people do use this kind of stuff in church lessons all the time without checking it against the scriptures and I thought it was relevant to the discussion to use it as an example of how easily we get the philosophies of men passed around in the church; which I pointed out to hep illustrate the difference between the church and the gospel again. Our culture really does have a lot of problems that are making life hard for many. I also want to add though, that while I do think there are some big problems and I would like to see more open discussion and attempts to address the problems, etc I also do feel like our church has more of the truth and teaches the gospel better than any other. I am NOT saying its better to quit the church and go it alone or anything like that. I just think that for some, they need to know that not all policies, practices, teachings, etc come from the gospel. Some are just from us flawed mortals and if you feel let down, betrayed , or whatever, hang in there anyway and hold to the perfect gospel and the savior, make him your rock. That's what I wanted to say to Irrelevant and anyone else who feels like that. Right now, I can't think of many things more depressing or sad than seeing someone give up on the gospel and our Savior at this late point in time. The millennium can't be far off. Seeing people get discouraged and quit now is like watching the lead guy in a race trip a foot away from the finish line or something. I hate seeing it.

Basically, seeing people I care about leaving the Church and giving up on the Gospel due to what they felt were unrealistic expectations by other members, being let down when leaders or other members (myself included, of course) acted less than perfect, and feeling judged harshly over trivial things that I dare not give as examples, lest they become the focus of the discussion- seeing this over and over has me at a loss for what I should do to help them. These are the reasons they feel they have left or are becoming discouraged. This is from them, not me. I love them and want them to partake in the Gospel. You know how you can see a light in someone's eyes when they hear and begin to understand the Gospel? It's like they're remembering something they didn't know they had forgotten. They feel things finally make sense. It's one of my favorite experiences. As good as it feels to witness that change in another person's life, it is equally terrible to see that light fade. We can say that they choose to be offended or they shouldn't put stock in trivialities or that they should know what is true doctrine and what isn't. But that doesn't help them. Aside from venting (whining, crying, complaining, or whatever you'd like to call it), this was the reason for the post: to explore what I can do to help them out.

I'm not thinking of leaving the Church; I'm looking for a way to help my friends get past the things that are keeping​ them away. I don't hate the members of my ward; I learn from them and look forward to seeing them. We all have shortcomings. I do not feel superior to them in any way. Some of them annoy me and I them, just like any family. It's really not even about my ward- I see it happening all over. I'm ​not doubting the faith but witnessing it in the lives of others.

And holy heck, at this point I wish I hadn't used the example of the primary lesson. Didn't realize caffeine was such a hot button issue. I don't care about it either way, personally. I don't even really drink ANY soda, for crying out loud. (But when I do, it's probably Dr. Pepper...) It was only to illustrate personal revelation or preference taught as doctrine.

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

[Rensai]

................ I don't know if the distinction is important, but it could be. Always best to be as precise and correct as possible imho.

Just to clarify;
The author is not LDS
This was not to point to any specific interpretation or doctrine, I just thought it illustrated some thoughts in a way some could find interesting from others perspectives.

Yeah I kind of figured the author wasn't LDS and I am really glad you shared it. I hope my critique didn't offend you, that wasn't the goal at all. But like I said, people do use this kind of stuff in church lessons all the time without checking it against the scriptures and I thought it was relevant to the discussion to use it as an example of how easily we get the philosophies of men passed around in the church; which I pointed out to hep illustrate the difference between the church and the gospel again. Our culture really does have a lot of problems that are making life hard for many. I also want to add though, that while I do think there are some big problems and I would like to see more open discussion and attempts to address the problems, etc I also do feel like our church has more of the truth and teaches the gospel better than any other. I am NOT saying its better to quit the church and go it alone or anything like that. I just think that for some, they need to know that not all policies, practices, teachings, etc come from the gospel. Some are just from us flawed mortals and if you feel let down, betrayed , or whatever, hang in there anyway and hold to the perfect gospel and the savior, make him your rock. That's what I wanted to say to Irrelevant and anyone else who feels like that. Right now, I can't think of many things more depressing or sad than seeing someone give up on the gospel and our Savior at this late point in time. The millennium can't be far off. Seeing people get discouraged and quit now is like watching the lead guy in a race trip a foot away from the finish line or something. I hate seeing it.

Basically, seeing people I care about leaving the Church and giving up on the Gospel due to what they felt were unrealistic expectations by other members, being let down when leaders or other members (myself included, of course) acted less than perfect, and feeling judged harshly over trivial things that I dare not give as examples, lest they become the focus of the discussion- seeing this over and over has me at a loss for what I should do to help them. These are the reasons they feel they have left or are becoming discouraged. This is from them, not me. I love them and want them to partake in the Gospel. You know how you can see a light in someone's eyes when they hear and begin to understand the Gospel? It's like they're remembering something they didn't know they had forgotten. They feel things finally make sense. It's one of my favorite experiences. As good as it feels to witness that change in another person's life, it is equally terrible to see that light fade. We can say that they choose to be offended or they shouldn't put stock in trivialities or that they should know what is true doctrine and what isn't. But that doesn't help them. Aside from venting (whining, crying, complaining, or whatever you'd like to call it), this was the reason for the post: to explore what I can do to help them out.

I'm not thinking of leaving the Church; I'm looking for a way to help my friends get past the things that are keeping​ them away. I don't hate the members of my ward; I learn from them and look forward to seeing them. We all have shortcomings. I do not feel superior to them in any way. Some of them annoy me and I them, just like any family. It's really not even about my ward- I see it happening all over. I'm ​not doubting the faith but witnessing it in the lives of others.

And holy heck, at this point I wish I hadn't used the example of the primary lesson. Didn't realize caffeine was such a hot button issue. I don't care about it either way, personally. I don't even really drink ANY soda, for crying out loud. (But when I do, it's probably Dr. Pepper...) It was only to illustrate personal revelation or preference taught as doctrine.

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

Yeah, I know exactly how you feel. I've had 2 siblings leave the church and become atheist in the last year or so and they are doing their best to take the rest of the family with them. I think two of the biggest things that have helped the rest of us keep our testimonies is differentiating between the church and gospel, as we've talked about. With that understanding, I don't have to defend every bad thing that's ever happened in church history. Secondly, daily scripture study. I think these are two really important things that have helped me push back against my sister and her crappy CES letter, etc.
With those things, and maybe a few other ideas, I've helped a couple other siblings that were starting to waiver after hearing the anti-mormon stuff from my sister and I don't think she'll have any more success talking anyone in the family into giving up the gospel and leaving the church.

[Kitkat]

Hmm, real problems...

If someone feels like a loved member of a community, there are few if any trials that they cannot face and overcome.

If, on the other hand, someone is feeling isolated and as if they are going thru difficulties alone, then a molehill problem can become a mountain.

Certainly someone struggling with "church history issues", which may or may not be impacting their faith in the restored gospel, is not undergoing a "crybaby problem". I would suggest that anyone making such characterizations is pointing the finger of scorn, and is perhaps not where they think they are. The Great and Spacious building has quite a few wings, I suspect many residing there are quite self-assured of their reserved seat in the Kingdom.

Thank you. We never know what someone is dealing with- or what (some may see as a) non-issue will be the last straw.

It seems in Matthew, that those who "work iniquity" are surprised to learn it. The true litmus test is not church attendance (which is a good thing) or anything physical, but the heart. I imagine that many will be surprised that their reserved seat is given to another, but moreso to see who takes it.

:ymhug:
Wow. This type of conversation and even hinting towards the great and spacious building being anything that might come from members would land you in Outer Darkness on this forum. Progress. Progress. At the expense of members of the forum who are no longer welcomed here.

[shadow]

I think two of the biggest things that have helped the rest of us keep our testimonies is differentiating between the church and gospel, as we've talked about. With that understanding, I don't have to defend every bad thing that's ever happened in church history.

You shouldn't have to defend everything, some things are indefensible. People aren't perfect but the church is Gods restored church on earth. If it's His, and no others are, it would be important to know it. In the pre-mortal world, which is God's Kingdom, we were spirit children of God. Mistakes were made by people (Lucifer and a third part), but you wouldn't claim that the Kingdom wasn't God's would you? One can't claim it wasn't a true kingdom just because there was a war going on. We don't defend Lucifer and a third part either. The restored true Gospel is found in the restored true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. People have made mistakes, we still do, but it's still the only true and living church. The Lord said so much in the D&C- "...the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth". Nobody in the church was perfect when He made that proclamation.

I cringe for those who trivialize or in other ways minimize the Lord's church including his Prophets and Apostles.