Tired of LDS culture

[Rose Garden]

The problem I have seen, including in myself, is that it seems that people are least charitable of the people who are guilty of the exact sins they have repented of. Partly, I think it gives someone who has overcome a particular sin an un-earned sense of superiority. Perhaps they also don't like the reminder of who they used to be. Who knows all the reasons?

Most people are just looking to be genuinely loved. Many of their faults they would happily discard in exchange for acceptance. But for whatever reason - well ultimately Satan and our own weaknesses - we all drive many away with our pride.

I had a friend who told me, much to my discomfort, that you haven't fully repented of a sin until it no longer bothers you to see it in others. I really wanted her to be wrong but what she said nagged at me relentlessly every time I was bothered by others exhibiting my past sins. After putting the idea to the test, I have to concur. If a sin still bothers you when you see it in others, there is still something of it within your heart and you need to continue to seek repentance until you are fully at peace.

I can't agree.
I've repented for most of my sins, I'd like to think all but ...
And I had never committed every sin.
But I'm still uncomfortable with any sin. Yes, even ones I didn't commit.
Now, what do I mean by uncomfortable? (I don't know what you mean, nor what your friend meant by it)
I mean that I seek to avoid places where sin is practiced, or persons who commit sins.
I don't want a bad example, I don't want to see it, I don't want to get comfortable with it. And I certainly do not want to start approving of it.
Now, I'm not talking about a repentant sinner. I'm talking about the ones who have no repentance for their sins. Who blatantly and openly practice them with impunity.
I guess to me it seems what path am I on? One of total repentance, or do i want to walk the line?
dc

I wasn't really thinking of serious sins, the stuff you would want to totally avoid, when I said that. Just stuff that is everyday that pretty much everyone deals with like gossipping, criticising your spouse, or yelling at your kids. Pretty hard to get away from those sorts of things.

[Rensai]

In the end we must always look past and forgive all the follies that we endure, including in Church.

I do wonder why some want to separate "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" from "The Church of Jesus Christ" (of Latter-day Saints)

I think that's pretty easy. We can and should differentiate the two in my opinion. The gospel is the word of God, it is perfect. A church, regardless of name, is just a collection of people with a common set of beliefs. It is full of sinners who make mistakes at all levels. It can, has, and no doubt will continue to change or reject teachings of past church presidents because even they make mistakes. I am flawed, you are flawed, and president Monson is flawed too. The goal of the church is to allow us to help strengthen each other's testimonies and spread the gospel. Yet many lose sight of that and instead start tearing others down, judging and condemning other member's faults and mistakes, treating others rudely, etc.

Teaching someone that the gospel and the church are one and the same, which makes no sense logically, only encourages people to want to leave the church and reject the gospel when they are treated poorly. I've seen it happen. Instead, we should be making it clear that they are not the same. That they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect. We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times. The church is a tool to help spread the gospel. Churches come and go but the gospel is eternal.

I can understand the OPs feelings about LDS culture. I get pretty sick of a lot of it myself at times and some wards I've been in are worse than others. We've adopted many traits or philosophies of men from Babylon and our behaviors and culture are far from Zion like. Don't fool yourself, we have plenty of false doctrine and philosophies of men taught in our church. Don't try to pretend it is the gospel or vice versa. Many are unhappy with parts of the LDS culture and need to know its not part of the eternal gospel. It can and will improve one day. Some of us really need that hope.

7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.
10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.
11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.
12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.
13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

The best thing said about any of us is that we can be humble followers of Christ who are misled in many instances by the precepts of men, which are taught in our churches regularly.

Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: ". . . they have all gone astray save it a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Ne. 28:14).

...

The world worships the learning of man. They trust in the arm of flesh. To them, men's reasoning is greater than God's revelations. The precepts of man have gone so far in subverting our educational system that in many cases a higher degree today, in the so-called social sciences, can be tantamount to a major investment in error. Very few men build firmly enough on the rock of revelation to go through this kind of an indoctrination and come out untainted. Unfortunately, of those who succumb, some use their higher degree to get teaching positions even in our Church educational system, where they spread the falsehoods they have been taught. President Joseph F. Smith was right when he said that false educational ideas would be one of the three threats to the Church within (Gospel Doctrine, pp. 312-13).

Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1969, pp. 10-15

[BTH&T]

In the end we must always look past and forgive all the follies that we endure, including in Church.

I do wonder why some want to separate "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" from "The Church of Jesus Christ" (of Latter-day Saints)

I think that's pretty easy. We can and should differentiate the two in my opinion.
The gospel is the word of God, it is perfect.
A church, regardless of name, is just a collection of people with a common set of beliefs.
It is full of sinners who make mistakes at all levels.
It can, has, and no doubt will continue to change or reject teachings of past church presidents because even they make mistakes.
I am flawed, you are flawed, and president Monson is flawed too.
The goal of the church is to allow us to help strengthen each other's testimonies and spread the gospel.
Yet many lose sight of that and instead start tearing others down, judging and condemning other member's faults and mistakes, treating others rudely, etc.
Teaching someone that the gospel and the church are one and the same, which makes no sense logically, only encourages people to want to leave the church and reject the gospel when they are treated poorly. I've seen it happen. Instead, we should be making it clear that they are not the same. That they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect. We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times. The church is a tool to help spread the gospel. Churches come and go but the gospel is eternal.

The Church of Jesus Christ is so much more than a group of people that get together, strengthen and support each other.
It is more than His tool to spread the Gospel.
If it is one that as you say "changes" over time because of flawed men, then yes any church will do!
The "true" Church of Jesus Christ is perfect. Period.

It has all the keys for administration of the Gospel
The Church is the Lord's institution for administering His Gospel.

Many of the events that happened in the restoration of this dispensation (fullness of times) were the restoration of sacred Keys.
The Keys were restored one by one, by those that had authority of them, to Joseph Smith. Those are held today by those in The Lords Church.
I believe that the concept of Priesthood Authority is an issue that the world does not really grasp.

It does matter how one is Baptized and by what authority. Too many seem to have an attitude that it doesn't matter, as long as they "believe" but we have been taught by the Savoir "that unless one is Baptized" he/she can not enter into the kingdom.
The Lord also showed the way in that He was baptized by the proper authority of that day by John the Baptist. So it is today as well.
WE EACH MUST BE BAPTIZED BY PROPER AUTHORITY! That alone is enough for me, but I am so grateful that we have so much more!

The Church is needed to administer the Gospel, and all there is on this earth are imperfect beings to fill the needs of The Lords Church.
No one is perfect, as much as we should strive to be, so grateful for repentance and the Savior's Atonement that enables us to be cleansed.
So many times we must look past the short comings of others to move forward.

Quote here:
"they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect.
We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times."

First off what does it matter if the people are never going to be perfect, who expects that?

We might hurt their feelings, misjudge, let them down? Really? (Sounds so politically correct, snowflake anyone)

I think this parable describes perfectly our discussion! can you pick which "seed" are those you describe

Matthew 13: 3-23

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Teaching someone that the gospel and the church are one and the same, which makes no sense logically, only encourages people to want to leave the church and reject the gospel when they are treated poorly. I've seen it happen.
Instead, we should be making it clear that they are not the same. That they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect. We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times. The church is a tool to help spread the gospel. Churches come and go but the gospel is eternal.

I can understand the OPs feelings about LDS culture. I get pretty sick of a lot of it myself at times and some wards I've been in are worse than others. We've adopted many traits or philosophies of men from Babylon and our behaviors and culture are far from Zion like. Don't fool yourself, we have plenty of false doctrine and philosophies of men taught in our church. Don't try to pretend it is the gospel or vice versa. Many are unhappy with parts of the LDS culture and need to know its not part of the eternal gospel. It can and will improve one day. Some of us really need that hope.

I don't think I could disagree more.

I understand the OP and I too have felt that way and have seen people that have been offended, hurt, and misguided.
I have had things done and said to me and my wife personally that were in error, that does not make the Church or Gospel false.
It means that I must forgive those that erred, move on and look to The Savior all the more.

You are correct that there are many that are prideful, egotistical, and unrighteous. So what, that is The Lords job to deal with not mine.
For me it is to forgive. Do all in my power to follow the path the Lord has for me.

The Church does not have false doctrine nor philosophies of men preached.

LDS culture is not the same as the LDS Church and that is where many have erred.

It's as if people are looking to justify and find reasons to leave, blaming others is an excuse and the easy way out.
Is this the sifting we have been told about? No more fence sitters?

[Rensai]

In the end we must always look past and forgive all the follies that we endure, including in Church.

I do wonder why some want to separate "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" from "The Church of Jesus Christ" (of Latter-day Saints)

I think that's pretty easy. We can and should differentiate the two in my opinion.
The gospel is the word of God, it is perfect.
A church, regardless of name, is just a collection of people with a common set of beliefs.
It is full of sinners who make mistakes at all levels.
It can, has, and no doubt will continue to change or reject teachings of past church presidents because even they make mistakes.
I am flawed, you are flawed, and president Monson is flawed too.
The goal of the church is to allow us to help strengthen each other's testimonies and spread the gospel.
Yet many lose sight of that and instead start tearing others down, judging and condemning other member's faults and mistakes, treating others rudely, etc.
Teaching someone that the gospel and the church are one and the same, which makes no sense logically, only encourages people to want to leave the church and reject the gospel when they are treated poorly. I've seen it happen. Instead, we should be making it clear that they are not the same. That they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect. We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times. The church is a tool to help spread the gospel. Churches come and go but the gospel is eternal.

The Church of Jesus Christ is so much more than a group of people that get together, strengthen and support each other.
It is more than His tool to spread the Gospel.
If it is one that as you say "changes" over time because of flawed men, then yes any church will do!
The "true" Church of Jesus Christ is perfect. Period.

You've completely ignored Nephi and ETB's words I quoted that say otherwise.

It has all the keys for administration of the Gospel
The Church is the Lord's institution for administering His Gospel.

Catholics, nephites, and Israelites all had this too at one time too.


Many of the events that happened in the restoration of this dispensation (fullness of times) were the restoration of sacred Keys.
The Keys were restored one by one, by those that had authority of them, to Joseph Smith. Those are held today by those in The Lords Church.
I believe that the concept of Priesthood Authority is an issue that the world does not really grasp.

It does matter how one is Baptized and by what authority. Too many seem to have an attitude that it doesn't matter, as long as they "believe" but we have been taught by the Savoir "that unless one is Baptized" he/she can not enter into the kingdom.
The Lord also showed the way in that He was baptized by the proper authority of that day by John the Baptist. So it is today as well.
WE EACH MUST BE BAPTIZED BY PROPER AUTHORITY! That alone is enough for me, but I am so grateful that we have so much more!

The Church is needed to administer the Gospel, and all there is on this earth are imperfect beings to fill the needs of The Lords Church.
No one is perfect, as much as we should strive to be, so grateful for repentance and the Savior's Atonement that enables us to be cleansed.
So many times we must look past the short comings of others to move forward.
I'll agree with this but nothing here disproves in any way what I said. The two aren't mutually exclusive, we can have authority to baptize and still have false doctrine being taught.


Quote here:
"they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect.
We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times."

First off what does it matter if the people are never going to be perfect, who expects that?
Point is imperfect people run churches or anything else for that matter imperfectly.
We might hurt their feelings, misjudge, let them down? Really? (Sounds so politically correct, snowflake anyone)

ok, go out of your way to be insulting if you want. Can't do any better than to stoop to insults?


I think this parable describes perfectly our discussion! can you pick which "seed" are those you describe

Matthew 13: 3-23

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Yeah thanks for calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a bad seed, that's a perfect example of the kind of LDS culture/behavior that is the problem. This isn't helpful to anyone.

Teaching someone that the gospel and the church are one and the same, which makes no sense logically, only encourages people to want to leave the church and reject the gospel when they are treated poorly. I've seen it happen.
Instead, we should be making it clear that they are not the same. That they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect. We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times. The church is a tool to help spread the gospel. Churches come and go but the gospel is eternal.

I can understand the OPs feelings about LDS culture. I get pretty sick of a lot of it myself at times and some wards I've been in are worse than others. We've adopted many traits or philosophies of men from Babylon and our behaviors and culture are far from Zion like. Don't fool yourself, we have plenty of false doctrine and philosophies of men taught in our church. Don't try to pretend it is the gospel or vice versa. Many are unhappy with parts of the LDS culture and need to know its not part of the eternal gospel. It can and will improve one day. Some of us really need that hope.

I don't think I could disagree more.
Disagree all you want. I've already provided a scripture and a quote from ETB to back up my claim that there is false doctrine being taught. I'm sorry if I trust in the scriptures more than your assurances that all is well in Zion.
I understand the OP and I too have felt that way and have seen people that have been offended, hurt, and misguided.
I have had things done and said to me and my wife personally that were in error, that does not make the Church or Gospel false.
It means that I must forgive those that erred, move on and look to The Savior all the more.
Exactly what I said. I'll just point out two things here. You just differentiated between the gospel and the church, thats redundant if they're the same thing as you insist. Secondly, you said look to the savior more when people mistreat you. What happens when those people are your church leaders?
People need to understand the difference between the church and the gospel so they can cling to the gospel and the Savior more when they are hurt like you did.
You are correct that there are many that are prideful, egotistical, and unrighteous. So what, that is The Lords job to deal with not mine.
For me it is to forgive. Do all in my power to follow the path the Lord has for me.

The Church does not have false doctrine nor philosophies of men preached.
Yes, I understand your opinion. Either provide scripture or show me how the quotes I provided are wrong. Otherwise you're just preaching your own philosophies. I'm not interested in that.
LDS culture is not the same as the LDS Church and that is where many have erred.
Is this the sifting we have been told about? No more fence sitters?
It's as if people are looking to justify and find reasons to leave, blaming others is an excuse and the easy way out.I'm sure for some you're right. Do you really think it will help if you keep calling them bad seeds or tares? And since you brought up tares, do you think these tares never get into any positions in the church where false doctrine could be taught? That despite all the best efforts of the tares the church remains perfect?Shall we ignore the fact that members of the quorum of the twelve have been excommunicated in the past? How about the false doctrines of Brigham Young,
Wilford Woodruff and many other church leaders that the church officially disavows now? These things are all established fact in the historical record.

What then would you have us believe? That its ok for church leaders to lead us astray with false doctrine, but it'll be corrected later, maybe after we're all dead so its ok, the church is perfect? How can a church run by imperfect beings be perfect?

Here's a second witness for you, another quote from president Uchtdorf saying the same thing I'm saying.

And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

You going to ignore that quote too? Seems pretty clear he's differentiating between God's perfect doctrine and our flawed imperfect church where members at all levels have made mistakes.

[BTH&T]

The Church of Jesus Christ is so much more than a group of people that get together, strengthen and support each other.
It is more than His tool to spread the Gospel.
If it is one that as you say "changes" over time because of flawed men, then yes any church will do!
The "true" Church of Jesus Christ is perfect. Period.

You've completely ignored Nephi and ETB's words I quoted that say otherwise.

Have Not ignored your thoughts, as I explained. The people are not perfect, but that does not make the church imperfect.
Yes there are traditions and philosophies of men, that does not make it doctrine.
There is a difference between people being imperfect and doctrine.

It has all the keys for administration of the Gospel
The Church is the Lord's institution for administering His Gospel.

Catholics, nephites, and Israelites all had this too at one time too.

Key word you used is "had", if you are one that believes that this is also the case with the LDS Church today then we are not going to prove anything here. I have been given a witness that this is THE only Church of Jesus Christ on the earth today with The Lords Authority. You thoughts on that are yours to believe as you wish.


Many of the events that happened in the restoration of this dispensation (fullness of times) were the restoration of sacred Keys.
The Keys were restored one by one, by those that had authority of them, to Joseph Smith. Those are held today by those in The Lords Church.
I believe that the concept of Priesthood Authority is an issue that the world does not really grasp.

It does matter how one is Baptized and by what authority. Too many seem to have an attitude that it doesn't matter, as long as they "believe" but we have been taught by the Savoir "that unless one is Baptized" he/she can not enter into the kingdom.
The Lord also showed the way in that He was baptized by the proper authority of that day by John the Baptist. So it is today as well.
WE EACH MUST BE BAPTIZED BY PROPER AUTHORITY! That alone is enough for me, but I am so grateful that we have so much more!

The Church is needed to administer the Gospel, and all there is on this earth are imperfect beings to fill the needs of The Lords Church.
No one is perfect, as much as we should strive to be, so grateful for repentance and the Savior's Atonement that enables us to be cleansed.
So many times we must look past the short comings of others to move forward.
I'll agree with this but nothing here disproves in any way what I said. The two aren't mutually exclusive, we can have authority to baptize and still have false doctrine being taught.


Quote here:
"they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect.
We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times."

First off what does it matter if the people are never going to be perfect, who expects that?
Point is imperfect people run churches or anything else for that matter imperfectly.
So what, forgive them and move on! Focus on the prize and endure to the end!

We might hurt their feelings, misjudge, let them down? Really? (Sounds so politically correct, snowflake anyone)

ok, go out of your way to be insulting if you want. Can't do any better than to stoop to insults?
Not meant to insult anyone. Sorry if I offended you or anyone else!

I think this parable describes perfectly our discussion! can you pick which "seed" are those you describe

Matthew 13: 3-23

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Yeah thanks for calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a bad seed, that's a perfect example of the kind of LDS culture/behavior that is the problem. This isn't helpful to anyone.
The words are not mine, they are straight out of the scriptures. I didn't call anyone anything. I am not anyone's judge. These words from Matthew teach that we must have our hearts with Christ. We each must look past one another's flaws, The Scriptures teach that.

Teaching someone that the gospel and the church are one and the same, which makes no sense logically, only encourages people to want to leave the church and reject the gospel when they are treated poorly. I've seen it happen.
Instead, we should be making it clear that they are not the same. That they can put their full faith and trust in Christ and his gospel, but when it comes to the church we're never going to be perfect. We will hurt their feelings. misjudge, and let them down at times. The church is a tool to help spread the gospel. Churches come and go but the gospel is eternal.

I can understand the OPs feelings about LDS culture. I get pretty sick of a lot of it myself at times and some wards I've been in are worse than others. We've adopted many traits or philosophies of men from Babylon and our behaviors and culture are far from Zion like. Don't fool yourself, we have plenty of false doctrine and philosophies of men taught in our church. Don't try to pretend it is the gospel or vice versa. Many are unhappy with parts of the LDS culture and need to know its not part of the eternal gospel. It can and will improve one day. Some of us really need that hope.

I don't think I could disagree more.
Disagree all you want. I've already provided a scripture and a quote from ETB to back up my claim that there is false doctrine being taught. I'm sorry if I trust in the scriptures more than your assurances that all is well in Zion.
I understand the OP and I too have felt that way and have seen people that have been offended, hurt, and misguided.
I have had things done and said to me and my wife personally that were in error, that does not make the Church or Gospel false.
It means that I must forgive those that erred, move on and look to The Savior all the more.
Exactly what I said. I'll just point out two things here. You just differentiated between the gospel and the church, thats redundant if they're the same thing as you insist. Secondly, you said look to the savior more when people mistreat you. What happens when those people are your church leaders?
People need to understand the difference between the church and the gospel so they can cling to the gospel and the Savior more when they are hurt like you did.
You are correct that there are many that are prideful, egotistical, and unrighteous. So what, that is The Lords job to deal with not mine.
For me it is to forgive. Do all in my power to follow the path the Lord has for me.

The Church does not have false doctrine nor philosophies of men preached.
Yes, I understand your opinion. Either provide scripture or show me how the quotes I provided are wrong. Otherwise you're just preaching your own philosophies. I'm not interested in that.
LDS culture is not the same as the LDS Church and that is where many have erred.
Is this the sifting we have been told about? No more fence sitters?

It's as if people are looking to justify and find reasons to leave, blaming others is an excuse and the easy way out.

I'm sure for some you're right. Do you really think it will help if you keep calling them bad seeds or tares? And since you brought up tares, do you think these tares never get into any positions in the church where false doctrine could be taught? That despite all the best efforts of the tares the church remains perfect?Shall we ignore the fact that members of the quorum of the twelve have been excommunicated in the past? How about the false doctrines of Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff and many other church leaders that the church officially disavows now? These things are all established fact in the historical record.

What then would you have us believe? That its ok for church leaders to lead us astray with false doctrine, but it'll be corrected later, maybe after we're all dead so its ok, the church is perfect?

How can a church run by imperfect beings be perfect?

Simple answer, Yes. I believe that the Church is run by imperfect souls, that is all that is on the earth! Do you not believe in repentance and forgiveness? Never in the history of mankind has there been perfection in anyone other than Jesus Christ. The Lord knows this and the whole plan of salvation is here for that cause.

Here's a second witness for you, another quote from president Uchtdorf saying the same thing I'm saying.

And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

You going to ignore that quote too? Seems pretty clear he's differentiating between God's perfect doctrine and our flawed imperfect church where members at all levels have made mistakes.

You seem to think that I am saying the people do not make mistakes, never said that.
It will always be this way, each of us must decide if we will follow the Savior in the way He has asked, and that is up to only one person.
Each of us individually.
We seem to be talking around one another. The Gospel is true! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is also true, with all the authority.
They go together!
My point to all of this is that we must overlook the flaws and imperfections of men, forgive all, and not let such trivial things draw us away from the truth.

[shadow]

Here's what President Benson said, just to keep the context of Rensai's post honest-

"The Lord’s mouthpiece and prophet on the face of the earth today received his authority through a line of prophets going back to Joseph Smith, who was ordained by Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, who was and is the head of the Church, the Creator of this earth, and the God before whom all men must stand accountable."

"This Church is not being directed by the wisdom of men. I know that. The power and influence of Almighty God are directing His Church"

"As members of the Church we have some close quarters to pass through if we are going to get home safely. We will be given a chance to choose between conflicting counsel given by some. That’s why we must learn—and the sooner we learn, the better—to keep our eye on the Prophet, the President of the Church."

As far as the church, our attitude should be similar to that of Joseph smith-
At the first general conference of the Church, held in Fayette, New York, on June 9, 1830, the sacrament was administered, several people were confirmed members of the Church, others were ordained to offices in the priesthood, and the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith recorded: “Such scenes as these were calculated to inspire our hearts with joy unspeakable, and fill us with awe and reverence for that Almighty Being, by whose grace we had been called to be instrumental in bringing about, for the children of men, the enjoyment of such glorious blessings as were now at this time poured out upon us. To find ourselves engaged in the very same order of things as observed by the holy Apostles of old; to realize the importance and solemnity of such proceedings; and to witness and feel with our own natural senses, the like glorious manifestations of the powers of the Priesthood, the gifts and blessings of the Holy Ghost, and the goodness and condescension of a merciful God unto such as obey the everlasting Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, combined to create within us sensations of rapturous gratitude, and inspire us with fresh zeal and energy in the cause of truth.”

[Rensai]

Here's what President Benson said, just to keep the context of Rensai's post honest-

"The Lord’s mouthpiece and prophet on the face of the earth today received his authority through a line of prophets going back to Joseph Smith, who was ordained by Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, who was and is the head of the Church, the Creator of this earth, and the God before whom all men must stand accountable."

"This Church is not being directed by the wisdom of men. I know that. The power and influence of Almighty God are directing His Church"

"As members of the Church we have some close quarters to pass through if we are going to get home safely. We will be given a chance to choose between conflicting counsel given by some. That’s why we must learn—and the sooner we learn, the better—to keep our eye on the Prophet, the President of the Church."

As far as the church, our attitude should be similar to that of Joseph smith-
At the first general conference of the Church, held in Fayette, New York, on June 9, 1830, the sacrament was administered, several people were confirmed members of the Church, others were ordained to offices in the priesthood, and the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith recorded: “Such scenes as these were calculated to inspire our hearts with joy unspeakable, and fill us with awe and reverence for that Almighty Being, by whose grace we had been called to be instrumental in bringing about, for the children of men, the enjoyment of such glorious blessings as were now at this time poured out upon us. To find ourselves engaged in the very same order of things as observed by the holy Apostles of old; to realize the importance and solemnity of such proceedings; and to witness and feel with our own natural senses, the like glorious manifestations of the powers of the Priesthood, the gifts and blessings of the Holy Ghost, and the goodness and condescension of a merciful God unto such as obey the everlasting Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, combined to create within us sensations of rapturous gratitude, and inspire us with fresh zeal and energy in the cause of truth.”

I quoted him with "honest" context. Nothing here contradicts what I quoted. I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm not quoting him honestly when in fact I am.

[Rensai]

We might hurt their feelings, misjudge, let them down? Really? (Sounds so politically correct, snowflake anyone)

Not meant to insult anyone. Sorry if I offended you or anyone else!

Come on, how is that not meant to be insulting? Is snowflake a compliment to you?

Matthew 13: 3-23

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


The words are not mine, they are straight out of the scriptures. I didn't call anyone anything. I am not anyone's judge. These words from Matthew teach that we must have our hearts with Christ. We each must look past one another's flaws, The Scriptures teach that.

Right, those words are out of the scriptures, but your words are: "I think this parable describes perfectly our discussion! can you pick which "seed" are those you describe." You are using your judgement to insinuate anyone who has a problem with LDS culture is a bad seed. You are the one trying to twist this scripture to apply to this situation. That is your judgement, that's on you.

You seem to think that I am saying the people do not make mistakes, never said that.

That is essentially what you are saying. A church run by imperfect people cannot be perfect. Only perfect people can run a perfect church as president Uchtdorf said. You have stated that the church is perfect. Period. That would have to mean none of the leaders are making mistakes, teaching false doctrine, etc. I can prove false doctrine has been taught in the church even from the president of the church himself in the past. I think you know that, so instead of honestly debating the merits of my post, you (and now shadow) insinuate that I'm a bad seed, a snowflake, not being honest in my quotes, etc. You're attacking the messenger because you can't come up with a good way to address my arguments, so who's really being dishonest here?

Instead of hiding or glossing over the mistakes and false doctrines that have been taught and ignoring the pain these things have caused, we should be addressing these things honestly and fixing them. Calling those who have suffered or been hurt by these types of things "bad seeds" or "snowflakes" doesn't help anyone. God is always honest. We should strive to be so as well. Insisting that the church is perfect, when it clearly is not, is not helpful. I know the church isn't perfect, you've as much as admitted you know that as well, even though you insist on saying that. I think in reality, we both think that it is the gospel that is perfect, not the church. So instead of attacking anyone who doesn't pretend all is well in Zion, why not try some empathy? Maybe politely and kindly steer them towards scriptures or talks that will help them with the problem instead of treating them as if they are always the problem. Sometimes they are the problem, sure, but sometimes it is a leader exercising unrighteous dominion or teaching false doctrine. calling them names and saying the problem is always on their end is not only dishonest, but only serves to deepen the pain and drive them further away from the church. Is that what you really want to do?

I think we're pretty much done here. This discussion doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere, but I hope you'll at least give what I've said some real thought and consideration.

[Finrock]

Come on, how is that not meant to be insulting? Is snowflake a compliment to you?

Here is something to keep in mind when people start calling you names or attacking you personally:

When you see a person unloading on you, accusing you, and railing on you, then you must see that person for who and what they are. All such actions come from a place of insecurity within these individuals. People who mock, ridicule, belittle, threaten, or try to put you down and tear you open are individuals who have strong negative core beliefs about themselves. Like the rest of us, they are sick except they don't know it yet. It is through these actions and through this behavior that they find some satisfaction in life and it helps them to feel better about themselves. You should have compassion on them and recognize that they are in need of the Savior just as you and I are. All of us need love and those who are the most belligerent, judgmental, or unkind generally need the most love.

Just see it for what it really is and let it slide off your back. It doesn't really and truly reflect on you at all. These are just insecure people who are dealing with life the best that they can...

-Finrock

[BTH&T]

We might hurt their feelings, misjudge, let them down? Really? (Sounds so politically correct, snowflake anyone)
Not meant to insult anyone. Sorry if I offended you or anyone else!

Come on, how is that not meant to be insulting? Is snowflake a compliment to you?

When we put political correctness in front of truth, yes it sometimes hurts feelings. The Gospel and what it requires takes effort and humility and we need not be so easily offended. Especially by others and their foibles.
To me that is what is addressed in the parable by the phrase in Matthew; "Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."

Right, those words are out of the scriptures, but your words are:
"I think this parable describes perfectly our discussion! can you pick which "seed" are those you describe."
You are using your judgement to insinuate anyone who has a problem with LDS culture is a bad seed.
You are the one trying to twist this scripture to apply to this situation. That is your judgement, that's on you.

Sorry for the confusion, did not try to insinuate any are bad seeds, the seeds are the same in the parable.
It is where they fell and what happen to them that I was trying to get across. Poor communication on my part.
I am not judging anyone, I don't know anyone to judge. I am expressing my thoughts and observations.

seem to think that I am saying the people do not make mistakes, never said that.

That is essentially what you are saying.
I'll say it again, there are no perfect people. Everyone makes mistakes, including those in the Church.
But it is not for me to condemn or judge them, or anyone for that matter. All I must do is forgive all.

A church run by imperfect people cannot be perfect.

Yes it can because of whose Church it is!


Only perfect people can run a perfect church as president Uchtdorf said. You have stated that the church is perfect. Period.
That would have to mean none of the leaders are making mistakes, teaching false doctrine, etc. I can prove false doctrine has been taught in the church even from the president of the church himself in the past. I think you know that, so instead of honestly debating the merits of my post, you (and now shadow) insinuate that I'm a bad seed, a snowflake, not being honest in my quotes, etc. You're attacking the messenger because you can't come up with a good way to address my arguments, so who's really being dishonest here?
Instead of hiding or glossing over the mistakes and false doctrines that have been taught and ignoring the pain these things have caused, we should be addressing these things honestly and fixing them. Calling those who have suffered or been hurt by these types of things "bad seeds" or "snowflakes" doesn't help anyone. God is always honest. We should strive to be so as well. Insisting that the church is perfect, when it clearly is not, is not helpful. I know the church isn't perfect, you've as much as admitted you know that as well, even though you insist on saying that. I think in reality, we both think that it is the gospel that is perfect, not the church. So instead of attacking anyone who doesn't pretend all is well in Zion, why not try some empathy? Maybe politely and kindly steer them towards scriptures or talks that will help them with the problem instead of treating them as if they are always the problem. Sometimes they are the problem, sure, but sometimes it is a leader exercising unrighteous dominion or teaching false doctrine. calling them names and saying the problem is always on their end is not only dishonest, but only serves to deepen the pain and drive them further away from the church. Is that what you really want to do?
I think we're pretty much done here. This discussion doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere, but I hope you'll at least give what I've said some real thought and consideration.

I think there is a different argument you have and I will not attempt to argue it with you.
Whatever your feelings toward God and his Church are yours to have, just as everyone has the agency to have.

In the OP we heard about "white shirts", "R rated movies" and "caffeine drinks" To me these are not issues to debate because they are not what matters. People do and say stupid things. Forgive them!
Sorry if you feel I have attacked you, I have not meant any offense. The thoughts I expressed were meant in a general sense, not directed at you or anyone else specifically.

I stand by what I've said.

My take away from this thread is no matter what we do, we must show love to all, and be quick to forgive.

[Rensai]

Whatever your feelings toward God and his Church are yours to have, just as everyone has the agency to have.

In the OP we heard about "white shirts", "R rated movies" and "caffeine drinks" To me these are not issues to debate because they are not what matters. People do and say stupid things. Forgive them!
Sorry if you feel I have attacked you, I have not meant any offense. The thoughts I expressed were meant in a general sense, not directed at you or anyone else specifically.

I stand by what I've said.

My take away from this thread is no matter what we do, we must show love to all, and be quick to forgive.[/color][/b]

Thanks for clarifying some things. I agree with what you say here and I'm sorry if I misunderstood some of the things you've said. They say most of communication is nonverbal through tone of voice, gestures, facial expressions,etc. None of which is available to us on an internet forum. It can be hard to understand what someone really means to say here.

[shadow]

Here's what President Benson said, just to keep the context of Rensai's post honest-

"The Lord’s mouthpiece and prophet on the face of the earth today received his authority through a line of prophets going back to Joseph Smith, who was ordained by Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, who was and is the head of the Church, the Creator of this earth, and the God before whom all men must stand accountable."

"This Church is not being directed by the wisdom of men. I know that. The power and influence of Almighty God are directing His Church"

"As members of the Church we have some close quarters to pass through if we are going to get home safely. We will be given a chance to choose between conflicting counsel given by some. That’s why we must learn—and the sooner we learn, the better—to keep our eye on the Prophet, the President of the Church."

As far as the church, our attitude should be similar to that of Joseph smith-
At the first general conference of the Church, held in Fayette, New York, on June 9, 1830, the sacrament was administered, several people were confirmed members of the Church, others were ordained to offices in the priesthood, and the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith recorded: “Such scenes as these were calculated to inspire our hearts with joy unspeakable, and fill us with awe and reverence for that Almighty Being, by whose grace we had been called to be instrumental in bringing about, for the children of men, the enjoyment of such glorious blessings as were now at this time poured out upon us. To find ourselves engaged in the very same order of things as observed by the holy Apostles of old; to realize the importance and solemnity of such proceedings; and to witness and feel with our own natural senses, the like glorious manifestations of the powers of the Priesthood, the gifts and blessings of the Holy Ghost, and the goodness and condescension of a merciful God unto such as obey the everlasting Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, combined to create within us sensations of rapturous gratitude, and inspire us with fresh zeal and energy in the cause of truth.”

I quoted him with "honest" context. Nothing here contradicts what I quoted. I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm not quoting him honestly when in fact I am.

I basically said that you using Benson's quote as proof that the church and the gospel are separate was wrong. Benson, based on his other words, didn't intend his words to be interpreted the way you have. He testified multiple times of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS's.

[Rensai]

Here's what President Benson said, just to keep the context of Rensai's post honest-

"The Lord’s mouthpiece and prophet on the face of the earth today received his authority through a line of prophets going back to Joseph Smith, who was ordained by Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, who was and is the head of the Church, the Creator of this earth, and the God before whom all men must stand accountable."

"This Church is not being directed by the wisdom of men. I know that. The power and influence of Almighty God are directing His Church"

"As members of the Church we have some close quarters to pass through if we are going to get home safely. We will be given a chance to choose between conflicting counsel given by some. That’s why we must learn—and the sooner we learn, the better—to keep our eye on the Prophet, the President of the Church."

As far as the church, our attitude should be similar to that of Joseph smith-
At the first general conference of the Church, held in Fayette, New York, on June 9, 1830, the sacrament was administered, several people were confirmed members of the Church, others were ordained to offices in the priesthood, and the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith recorded: “Such scenes as these were calculated to inspire our hearts with joy unspeakable, and fill us with awe and reverence for that Almighty Being, by whose grace we had been called to be instrumental in bringing about, for the children of men, the enjoyment of such glorious blessings as were now at this time poured out upon us. To find ourselves engaged in the very same order of things as observed by the holy Apostles of old; to realize the importance and solemnity of such proceedings; and to witness and feel with our own natural senses, the like glorious manifestations of the powers of the Priesthood, the gifts and blessings of the Holy Ghost, and the goodness and condescension of a merciful God unto such as obey the everlasting Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, combined to create within us sensations of rapturous gratitude, and inspire us with fresh zeal and energy in the cause of truth.”

I quoted him with "honest" context. Nothing here contradicts what I quoted. I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm not quoting him honestly when in fact I am.

I basically said that you using Benson's quote as proof that the church and the gospel are separate was wrong. Benson, based on his other words, didn't intend his words to be interpreted the way you have. He testified multiple times of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS's.

No, I said the church and gospel were separate in the first paragraph and clearly stated it was my opinion. Read it again. Then I quoted President Benson as saying that false doctrines and precepts of men were taught in church. That is literally what he said. Those are his words and Nephi's as well. That is all I said that he said. I did not misrepresent his words. I do think it supports my point though. If the church has false teachings in it as benson said, and the gospel is perfect.. they cannot be the same. its very simple, easy to understand logic imho. Honestly, I can't even understand how someone can think they are the same. The gospel is literally the word of God, the church is a tool, an institution. Yes it is founded on the gospel, but it is a group of people sharing their belief in the gospel, teaching each other, etc. Are you part of the church? Yes, you are. Are you the word of God? Of course not. See the difference? The word of God is true. Are you True? What would that even mean? How can a person be true? How can a group of people or an institution be true, especially when its easy to prove that sometimes things are said by them that are not true.

It may seem nitpicky, but I think its an important distinction. Going back to Benson and Nephi, with false doctrines and philosophies of men being taught at times, if someone literally believes the church and the gospel is the same, what are they to think when they don't feel right about something being taught? Now pile on further with other false ideas like everyone is called of God in the church, etc. It can be very damaging to peoples testimonies when they are told to accept these false ideas. I've seen this.

Christ himself makes this distinction. Look at D&C 18 for example.

5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

The church is to be built UPON his gospel and his rock. If the church is the gospel, how can it be built upon itself? Or if this is meaningless and they are basically the same, why would he differentiate?

[Finrock]

The Church of Jesus Christ is so much more than a group of people that get together, strengthen and support each other.
It is more than His tool to spread the Gospel.
If it is one that as you say "changes" over time because of flawed men, then yes any church will do!
The "true" Church of Jesus Christ is perfect. Period.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is only as perfect as the people who make up this Church. Keep in mind that this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church is not perfect. The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect. The Church as it exists today, will not exist forever. This is why many of the issues that the OP is speaking to are often manifested, because so many individuals within the Church do not distinguish correctly between the Church and the gospel. The Church and its programs have and will change in time. However, gospel principles do not change and they will never change.

Thinking that the Church is "perfect" assumes that the Church stands alone without its members. But, it doesn't. There would be no Church if there were no members. And, as I mentioned earlier, it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our name indicates the two components that are found in the Church. It has the gospel of Jesus Christ and it has at its head, Jesus Christ, but it also is the Church of the Latter-day Saints, who are not perfect. The body of the Church consist of fallible and sinful individuals who are trying to live the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Church culture does not necessarily equate to the gospel of Jesus Christ or eternal principles. Church policies, procedures, and directions also do not necessarily equate to the gospel of Jesus Christ. They may reflect the gospel, they often are inspired and guided by the gospel, and they may at times exactly line up with the gospel, but not always or not in an infallible way. If the policies, procedures, and the directions of the Church always equated to the gospel of Jesus Christ then we would never have a need to denounce certain ideas or teachings that were taught by previous Church leaders as is the case with blacks and the priesthood and other racists ideas which the Church has now formally denounced. With this one example alone we can see how something that was being taught by the Church did not in fact line up and equate with the gospel of Jesus Christ and was not true, even if members thought that it did or was. This is also related to one reason why many people eventually become disaffected because they have not properly made the distinction between the Church and the gospel. As a result of not making this distinction some people will outright abandon the Church or "fall away" from the gospel when it is discovered that not everything that the Church teaches or supports happens to be gospel truth.

In its original form as given in General Conference in 1984, Elder Poelman correctly and beautifully described this distinction and why we should care about it. Said Elder Poelman in his original address:

Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine. However, there is a distinction between them which is significant and it is very important that this distinction be understood.

Of equal importance is understanding the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme instances, even disaffections.

As I attempt to describe and comment upon some distinguishing characteristics of the gospel and of the Church, at the same time noting their essential relationships, it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles and laws which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance. The principles and laws of the gospel never change. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a divine institution administered by the priesthood of God. The Church has authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances. The gospel is the substance of the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that provides the means and resources to implement this plan in each individual's life. Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures do change from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.

Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures. As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.

Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies. Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles. Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy. In fact, the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired Church do accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural diversity.

The conformity we require should be according to God's standards. The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the divine uniqueness of the individual. It is important therefore to know the difference between eternal gospel principles which are unchanging, universally applicable and cultural norms which may vary with time and circumstance (Source: http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml).

Couldn't have been said any better...

-Finrock

[Rensai]

The Church of Jesus Christ is so much more than a group of people that get together, strengthen and support each other.
It is more than His tool to spread the Gospel.
If it is one that as you say "changes" over time because of flawed men, then yes any church will do!
The "true" Church of Jesus Christ is perfect. Period.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is only as perfect as the people who make up this Church. Keep in mind that this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church is not perfect. The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect. The Church as it exists today, will not exist forever. This is why many of the issues that the OP is speaking to are often manifested, because so many individuals within the Church do not distinguish correctly between the Church and the gospel. The Church and its programs have and will change in time. However, gospel principles do not change and they will never change.

Thinking that the Church is "perfect" assumes that the Church stands alone without its members. But, it doesn't. There would be no Church if there were no members. And, as I mentioned earlier, it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our name indicates the two components that are found in the Church. It has the gospel of Jesus Christ and it has at its head, Jesus Christ, but it also is the Church of the Latter-day Saints, who are not perfect. The body of the Church consist of fallible and sinful individuals who are trying to live the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Church culture does not necessarily equate to the gospel of Jesus Christ or eternal principles. Church policies, procedures, and directions also do not necessarily equate to the gospel of Jesus Christ. They may reflect the gospel, they often are inspired and guided by the gospel, and they may at times exactly line up with the gospel, but not always or not in an infallible way. If the policies, procedures, and the directions of the Church always equated to the gospel of Jesus Christ then we would never have a need to denounce certain ideas or teachings that were taught by previous Church leaders as is the case with blacks and the priesthood and other racists ideas which the Church has now formally denounced. With this one example alone we can see how something that was being taught by the Church did not in fact line up and equate with the gospel of Jesus Christ and was not true, even if members thought that it did or was. This is also related to one reason why many people eventually become disaffected because they have not properly made the distinction between the Church and the gospel. As a result of not making this distinction some people will outright abandon the Church or "fall away" from the gospel when it is discovered that not everything that the Church teaches or supports happens to be gospel truth.

In its original form as given in General Conference in 1984, Elder Poelman correctly and beautifully described this distinction and why we should care about it. Said Elder Poelman in his original address:

Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine. However, there is a distinction between them which is significant and it is very important that this distinction be understood.

Of equal importance is understanding the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme instances, even disaffections.

As I attempt to describe and comment upon some distinguishing characteristics of the gospel and of the Church, at the same time noting their essential relationships, it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles and laws which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance. The principles and laws of the gospel never change. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a divine institution administered by the priesthood of God. The Church has authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances. The gospel is the substance of the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that provides the means and resources to implement this plan in each individual's life. Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures do change from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.

Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures. As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.

Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies. Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles. Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy. In fact, the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired Church do accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural diversity.

The conformity we require should be according to God's standards. The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the divine uniqueness of the individual. It is important therefore to know the difference between eternal gospel principles which are unchanging, universally applicable and cultural norms which may vary with time and circumstance (Source: http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml).

Couldn't have been said any better...

-Finrock

Thanks Finrock, that's exactly what I've been trying to say in my own, less eloquent way.

This is also related to one reason why many people eventually become disaffected because they have not properly made the distinction between the Church and the gospel. As a result of not making this distinction some people will outright abandon the Church or "fall away" from the gospel when it is discovered that not everything that the Church teaches or supports happens to be gospel truth.

This is exactly why I think it is important for people to understand the distinction between the two. I have witnessed a couple of people fall away from the gospel, in part at least, because they failed to see the distinction between the church and the gospel.

[shadow]

"The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles, laws, and ordinances which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance. Gospel principles never change.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth, administered by the priesthood of God. The Church has authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances." Elder Poelman

I guess I don't get caught up in the small stuff like a Primary teacher telling her class it's against the WOW to drink a Coke. The meat and weightier matters are found in having a Prophet, sealing powers, keys and the Priesthood (All church functions). We know people are not perfect. The Gospel isn't people. People aren't doctrine. Sometimes I wonder why people focus so much on a sad looking tree or two that they can't see the glorious forest.

[aspietroll]

This is exactly why I think it is important for people to understand the distinction between the two. I have witnessed a couple of people fall away from the gospel, in part at least, because they failed to see the distinction between the church and the gospel.

Unfortunately, the church itself doesn't recognize a difference between church and doctrine. They believe the will of the church is doctrine.

When I went to a youth ward for a short time, there were actually lectures from bishops and missionaries about how tithing will result in God giving you a promotion or some big break you need in life. Which is outright superstitious.

Doctrine wasn't discussed at all, just the importance of how taking part in church dances, tithing, cleaning the church building, abstaining from coffee and other nonsense is stuff you absolutely must do to get to heaven.

It's only going to get worse with the church replacing the boy scouts program with their own program.

https://www.lds.org/youth/ymactivities?lang=eng

The young men activities list they have is painful to look at. Half the activities on there involve missionary work, reading scripture, organizing church activities etc. It looks to me like they're getting rid of boy scouts to replace it with programs that teach stricter obedience to the church. The very first thing listed under physical activities is "clean a church building."

The church has a sick fascination with pushing, "you must go along with every single church decision and belief or you're not a good mormon."

Don't count on the church teaching young people about the Constitution.

[Silver]

This is exactly why I think it is important for people to understand the distinction between the two. I have witnessed a couple of people fall away from the gospel, in part at least, because they failed to see the distinction between the church and the gospel.

Unfortunately, the church itself doesn't recognize a difference between church and doctrine. They believe the will of the church is doctrine.

When I went to a youth ward for a short time, there were actually lectures from bishops and missionaries about how tithing will result in God giving you a promotion or some big break you need in life. Which is outright superstitious.

Doctrine wasn't discussed at all, just the importance of how taking part in church dances, tithing, cleaning the church building, abstaining from coffee and other nonsense is stuff you absolutely must do to get to heaven.

It's only going to get worse with the church replacing the boy scouts program with their own program.

https://www.lds.org/youth/ymactivities?lang=eng

The young men activities list they have is painful to look at. Half the activities on there involve missionary work, reading scripture, organizing church activities etc. It looks to me like they're getting rid of boy scouts to replace it with programs that teach stricter obedience to the church. The very first thing listed under physical activities is "clean a church building."

The church has a sick fascination with pushing, "you must go along with every single church decision and belief or you're not a good mormon."

Don't count on the church teaching young people about the Constitution.

I'm sorry that church didn't work out for you. I am grateful for my long association with it, starting in my youth. Countless blessings have been mine.

[aspietroll]

This is exactly why I think it is important for people to understand the distinction between the two. I have witnessed a couple of people fall away from the gospel, in part at least, because they failed to see the distinction between the church and the gospel.

Unfortunately, the church itself doesn't recognize a difference between church and doctrine. They believe the will of the church is doctrine.

When I went to a youth ward for a short time, there were actually lectures from bishops and missionaries about how tithing will result in God giving you a promotion or some big break you need in life. Which is outright superstitious.

Doctrine wasn't discussed at all, just the importance of how taking part in church dances, tithing, cleaning the church building, abstaining from coffee and other nonsense is stuff you absolutely must do to get to heaven.

It's only going to get worse with the church replacing the boy scouts program with their own program.

https://www.lds.org/youth/ymactivities?lang=eng

The young men activities list they have is painful to look at. Half the activities on there involve missionary work, reading scripture, organizing church activities etc. It looks to me like they're getting rid of boy scouts to replace it with programs that teach stricter obedience to the church. The very first thing listed under physical activities is "clean a church building."

The church has a sick fascination with pushing, "you must go along with every single church decision and belief or you're not a good mormon."

Don't count on the church teaching young people about the Constitution.

I'm sorry that church didn't work out for you. I am grateful for my long association with it, starting in my youth. Countless blessings have been mine.

I have respect for other branches of Mormons. The Resurrection Branch and even The Church of Christ are more respectable than the LDS and love Jesus more. I don't feel the LDS ward I experienced falls even into the same realm of most Methodist based American Christianity religions. I say Methodist based because their influence is in almost every major church in this country and has been from the beginning. For example, the same hymns written by John Wesley in the mid 1700s are still sung in Catholic, Evangelical, Puritan and Mormon churches today. In America is an umbrella theology to which the Catholics and Methodists and Evangelical and Resurrection Branch Mormons fall under. This umbrella would exclude the LDS as naturally as Hinduism would be excluded from under it.

But if America is a Christian nation, it is a United Methodist nation.

I can answer almost anything on the Constitution you throw me. And except for bots and shills, I'm probably the closest thing to an atheist on this board.

[brlenox]

I'm probably the closest thing to an atheist on this board.

When you were a little tadpole did your Mamma warn you that sometimes little froggers don't detect temperature changes very well and that you should never sit in a pot of water for too long? You may not have noticed but I think its getting warmer.

[Irrelevant]

I'm happy that so many here are thick skinned and the various problems that arise in the Church due to our imperfection are no bother to you. That's fantastic. As evidenced by retention rates and attendence, not all new, returning, or even plain old members seem to have your fortitude. So the advice of some that seems to be to just suck it up may work with a few, but how does it help those who aren't as strong as you seem to be?

It was not my intention to have the discussion focus so heavily on the few examples I gave. They were only provided to support the overarching idea. I really don't care if you think that someone who chooses to drink something with caffeine is lacking common sense or is proud of their stupidity or whatever it was. Our attitude and words only show our own character. (I wonder what President McKay would think? Is he an idiot, too?) Is this what we want new members to think about? Is this the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Thanks Finrock, that's one of my favorite talks. I do agree that there is a difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church is the vehicle through which we are able to partake in saving ordinances. BTH&T said, "The Church is the Lord's institution for administering His Gospel." I agree wholeheartedly. It is His church, but that does not mean that false doctrine cannot be taught in it. Imperfect people, remember? Our leaders are not infallible and to hold them to such a high standard does them and us a huge disservice.

[drtanner]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... h?lang=eng

[shadow]

I'm happy that so many here are thick skinned and the various problems that arise in the Church due to our imperfection are no bother to you. That's fantastic. As evidenced by retention rates and attendence, not all new, returning, or even plain old members seem to have your fortitude. So the advice of some that seems to be to just suck it up may work with a few, but how does it help those who aren't as strong as you seem to be?

It was not my intention to have the discussion focus so heavily on the few examples I gave. They were only provided to support the overarching idea. I really don't care if you think that someone who chooses to drink something with caffeine is lacking common sense or is proud of their stupidity or whatever it was. Our attitude and words only show our own character. (I wonder what President McKay would think? Is he an idiot, too?) Is this what we want new members to think about? Is this the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Thanks Finrock, that's one of my favorite talks. I do agree that there is a difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church is the vehicle through which we are able to partake in saving ordinances. BTH&T said, "The Church is the Lord's institution for administering His Gospel." I agree wholeheartedly. It is His church, but that does not mean that false doctrine cannot be taught in it. Imperfect people, remember? Our leaders are not infallible and to hold them to such a high standard does them and us a huge disservice.

It's not a matter of being thick skinned, it's about having faith, hope and charity. It's seeing things as they are and having a grasp of what the plan of salvation is and how it's been administered since the time of Adam. It's understanding how God works with people from the beginning. It's having faith to endure to the end. And I agree, our attitude shows our character. I suggest showing an attitude of charity towards your brothers and sisters at church. Those who judge harsh with an attitude of superiority seem to find themselves outside Gods restored church. Sit down, have a Coke and a KitKat bar and ponderize the blessing it is that God has seen fit to restore His church with Prophets and Apostles. The church really is true. It's God's.

[Finrock]

I'm happy that so many here are thick skinned and the various problems that arise in the Church due to our imperfection are no bother to you. That's fantastic. As evidenced by retention rates and attendence, not all new, returning, or even plain old members seem to have your fortitude. So the advice of some that seems to be to just suck it up may work with a few, but how does it help those who aren't as strong as you seem to be?

It was not my intention to have the discussion focus so heavily on the few examples I gave. They were only provided to support the overarching idea. I really don't care if you think that someone who chooses to drink something with caffeine is lacking common sense or is proud of their stupidity or whatever it was. Our attitude and words only show our own character. (I wonder what President McKay would think? Is he an idiot, too?) Is this what we want new members to think about? Is this the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Thanks Finrock, that's one of my favorite talks. I do agree that there is a difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church is the vehicle through which we are able to partake in saving ordinances. BTH&T said, "The Church is the Lord's institution for administering His Gospel." I agree wholeheartedly. It is His church, but that does not mean that false doctrine cannot be taught in it. Imperfect people, remember? Our leaders are not infallible and to hold them to such a high standard does them and us a huge disservice.

It's not a matter of being thick skinned, it's about having faith, hope and charity. It's seeing things as they are and having a grasp of what the plan of salvation is and how it's been administered since the time of Adam. It's understanding how God works with people from the beginning. It's having faith to endure to the end. And I agree, our attitude shows our character. I suggest showing an attitude of charity towards your brothers and sisters at church. Those who judge harsh with an attitude of superiority seem to find themselves outside Gods restored church. Sit down, have a Coke and a KitKat bar and ponderize the blessing it is that God has seen fit to restore His church with Prophets and Apostles. The church really is true. It's God's.

Show the way, shadow. Please, have an attitude of charity towards all those on this forum with whom you interact with. The pure love of Christ means something and if this is something that you have, then it will be manifest in how you communicate and treat others.

Do you think you are judging the OP harshly? Do you feel that you are superior to the OP or to those who share his concerns? Are you a better Mormon in your view because you don't have the same...issues? How do you feel about people sharing their concerns about the Church? Should they only share positive things? In your mind, is there any room for anyone to ever have any criticism at all about what goes on at Church?

Sincere questions, please respond if you don't mind. It would be interesting to know how you perceive yourself and what you feel about the questions I asked.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Here's what President Benson said, just to keep the context of Rensai's post honest-

"The Lord’s mouthpiece and prophet on the face of the earth today received his authority through a line of prophets going back to Joseph Smith, who was ordained by Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, who was and is the head of the Church, the Creator of this earth, and the God before whom all men must stand accountable."

"This Church is not being directed by the wisdom of men. I know that. The power and influence of Almighty God are directing His Church"

"As members of the Church we have some close quarters to pass through if we are going to get home safely. We will be given a chance to choose between conflicting counsel given by some. That’s why we must learn—and the sooner we learn, the better—to keep our eye on the Prophet, the President of the Church."

As far as the church, our attitude should be similar to that of Joseph smith-
At the first general conference of the Church, held in Fayette, New York, on June 9, 1830, the sacrament was administered, several people were confirmed members of the Church, others were ordained to offices in the priesthood, and the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith recorded: “Such scenes as these were calculated to inspire our hearts with joy unspeakable, and fill us with awe and reverence for that Almighty Being, by whose grace we had been called to be instrumental in bringing about, for the children of men, the enjoyment of such glorious blessings as were now at this time poured out upon us. To find ourselves engaged in the very same order of things as observed by the holy Apostles of old; to realize the importance and solemnity of such proceedings; and to witness and feel with our own natural senses, the like glorious manifestations of the powers of the Priesthood, the gifts and blessings of the Holy Ghost, and the goodness and condescension of a merciful God unto such as obey the everlasting Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, combined to create within us sensations of rapturous gratitude, and inspire us with fresh zeal and energy in the cause of truth.”

I quoted him with "honest" context. Nothing here contradicts what I quoted. I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm not quoting him honestly when in fact I am.

I basically said that you using Benson's quote as proof that the church and the gospel are separate was wrong. Benson, based on his other words, didn't intend his words to be interpreted the way you have. He testified multiple times of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS's.

No, I said the church and gospel were separate in the first paragraph and clearly stated it was my opinion. Read it again. Then I quoted President Benson as saying that false doctrines and precepts of men were taught in church. That is literally what he said. Those are his words and Nephi's as well. That is all I said that he said. I did not misrepresent his words. I do think it supports my point though. If the church has false teachings in it as benson said, and the gospel is perfect.. they cannot be the same. its very simple, easy to understand logic imho. Honestly, I can't even understand how someone can think they are the same. The gospel is literally the word of God, the church is a tool, an institution. Yes it is founded on the gospel, but it is a group of people sharing their belief in the gospel, teaching each other, etc. Are you part of the church? Yes, you are. Are you the word of God? Of course not. See the difference? The word of God is true. Are you True? What would that even mean? How can a person be true? How can a group of people or an institution be true, especially when its easy to prove that sometimes things are said by them that are not true.

It may seem nitpicky, but I think its an important distinction. Going back to Benson and Nephi, with false doctrines and philosophies of men being taught at times, if someone literally believes the church and the gospel is the same, what are they to think when they don't feel right about something being taught? Now pile on further with other false ideas like everyone is called of God in the church, etc. It can be very damaging to peoples testimonies when they are told to accept these false ideas. I've seen this.

Christ himself makes this distinction. Look at D&C 18 for example.

5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

The church is to be built UPON his gospel and his rock. If the church is the gospel, how can it be built upon itself? Or if this is meaningless and they are basically the same, why would he differentiate?

The danger in making a very clear distinction--that the church and the gospel are separate, is that some people take that to mean they don't have to remain in the church. We've seen countless examples of people who decide that the people have corrupted the church, therefore they are justified in not attending, or even leaving the church. It's so common, it's sad, and the rationalizations are often tied to this notion that they can 'live' the gospel outside of the church, because they are two different entities. There's no question that Pres. Benson or any other church Prophet would not have supported that and would have been certain to clarify if they'd ever thought someone might try to justify inactivity or leaving the LDS church.

The church and the gospel are inextricably tied together. You can't have the gospel without the church or the church without the gospel. That's why Jesus restored his gospel and set up a church when it became corrupted and why Joseph Smith Jr. was called to restore it in the latter days--within the framework of a church.

What is being complained about on this thread is LDS culture, which is not the church or the gospel. If you've only lived and attended church in heavily LDS areas like Utah and Idaho, you don't really know what 'the church' is--it's a worldwide church now and if you travel much, you'll see this. Get out in the mission field and you'll find different cultures which influence the members--because people are always going to bring elements of their culture, their community with them.

********

And, I hope I won't be criticized for suggesting one of the teachings of the Master regarding this topic, but when I read the op, I think of Jesus' admonition that before we try to remove a mote from our neighbor's eye, we remove the beam in our own. For every annoying member of your ward, you can bet those members probably think you are the problem. We all have things we can work on and wards and branches give us wonderful opportunities to not only learn to serve and work with others we might not want to even associate with in daily life, but it also helps us develop charity, the pure love of Christ. The 'church' is a place for imperfect beings who are striving to do better and we all believe in the Savior and are trying to be more like him. As long as we're still here, we're not translated like the City of Enoch, there's always room for improvement.