Tired of LDS culture

[Lizzy60]

He was probably referencing the "Primary voice" used by some women when they speak in general conference. I know it was very prevalent a few years ago, but I'm not sure how much it happens now, as I am sure some of the ladies saw the discussions online (or received letters).

[Silver Pie]

Some interesting comments about caffeine. If I'm stressed, caffeine calms me down. If I can't sleep but need to, caffeine will put me to sleep. I grew up believing I was allergic to caffeine because my mother told me I was, hence I never acquired a taste for things like pepsi and coke, so it was a surprise to me to discover (when I took a caffeine pill for a headache when there was nothing else available, about 4 years ago) that caffeine helped me sleep. I really do believe we get Pharisaical when we say that caffeine is against the Word of Wisdom (which is advice, not a commandment, and does not say-internally-anything more than "hot drinks" as far as "coffee and tea and caffeine" goes - but that is a subject that has been rehashed ad nauseum here)

[Alaris]

He was probably referencing the "Primary voice" used by some women when they speak in general conference. I know it was very prevalent a few years ago, but I'm not sure how much it happens now, as I am sure some of the ladies saw the discussions online (or received letters).

My in-laws used to talk baby-talk to everyone, even to each other when they thought they were alone. Just a silly habit, nothing harmful in it.

Yep that's what I meant. You're right it's not as prevalent but yeah baby talk is a great way of putting it.

[eddie]

I am so sick of this, my first thoughts are, " Get a real problem" there are people who have lost a child, or have been cheated on, have a child with extreme autism, etc. and being worried about church culture is the least of their problems. I have a friend whose Mothersl last child was born with mental issues and club feet, she put his arms on her shoulders and drug him around until she didn't have the strength to do it anymore. She finally put him in a home and cried everyday the rest of her life.

Then there are people who are butt hurt about Joseph Smith living pologamy, something we all knew. Give it a rest and get a real problem, this is acting like the crybabies democrats!

[Alaris]

Someone needs a nap.

[Silver]

I am so sick of this, my first thoughts are, " Get a real problem" there are people who have lost a child, or have been cheated on, have a child with extreme autism, etc. and being worried about church culture is the least of their problems. I have a friend whose Mothersl last child was born with mental issues and club feet, she put his arms on her shoulders and drug him around until she didn't have the strength to do it anymore. She finally put him in a home and cried everyday the rest of her life.

Then there are people who are butt hurt about Joseph Smith living pologamy, something we all knew. Give it a rest and get a real problem, this is acting like the crybabies democrats!

Which is worse, eddie, complaining about church culture, or complaining about people who complain about church culture? When it comes to "irony" LDSFF provides a target rich environment.

irony.jpg (103.68 KiB) Viewed 1583 times

[diligently seeking]

Long live cherry coke! How does that one song go. Oooh I want ya I don't know if I need ya-- like a drink of cherry Co Co cola..." or something like that. Google tells me savage garden sung it. As good as it tastes it messes with my stomach, packs on the pounds, and dawg- gone if I don't get the itch for it / it is addictive... More reason to long for that Zion body which will be Impervious to the negative side affects! :p

[Alaris]

Long live cherry coke! How does that one song go. Oooh I want ya I don't know if I need ya-- like a drink of cherry Co Co cola..." or something like that. Google tells me savage garden sung it. As good as it tastes it messes with my stomach, packs on the pounds, and dawg- gone if I don't get the itch for it / it is addictive... More reason to long for that Zion body which will be Impervious to the negative side affects! :p

"Like a chicken cherry cola.... Oh I want you I don't know if I need you but ooo I'm dying to find out"

Edit: added quotes as I don't want anyone thinking that was directed at Jaredbees

[Sarah]

This is awfully strange, I was thinking about the same problem: LDS culture, in exactly the opposite manner this morning. I am not kidding, this was seriously what I pondered over this morning. I want to make that clear because it is odd, and because I am not seeking to fight or instigate contention. I just want to share my perspective.

I sometimes feel tired when other members get upset if I quote the prophets at church. Why is it considered being holier-than-thou to simply want to do what is right? To take the Lord at his word? If I read in the scriptures or hear a prophet say I should or should not do something, I tend to believe them. Even more so when I pray and receive my own witness of the counsel.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard members say it is so great we can watch R-rated movies now. I understood the change in suggestion to mean that perhaps ratings are so poorly applied that we should simply avoid all movies and media that do not edify, uplift and invite the Spirit. This would mean not just R-rated, but even G-rated if it takes us from Christ.

I am surprised by members who say we can drink caffiene because it is not in the Word of Wisdom. Like R-rated movies, isn't this a chance to follow the less specific and larger scope of avoiding ALL things that are addicting as we have been counseled by modern prophets? Do we need to be commanded in all things? Can we not see for ourselves the health effects being suffered by the modern western diet? Can we not try and see for ourselves the health benefits of following the Word of Wisdom, as it is written, and then applying the advice of the prophets and the Spirit to new vices? What is good health for, but to allow us to better feel the Spirit and serve Christ?

I don't want to be overzealous, I want to be faithful. I don't want to judge unrighteously, I want to be allowed to live with integrity. I want follow the prophets without being accused of being judgmental.

Those who list these "lack of specific rules" as permission to do whatever they want seem to me to be the ones who are tyring to mix the culture of Babylon with the culture of Zion and then take offense when Zion is uncomfortable.

When I read the Old Testemant I see a lot of the lower law. When I read the New Testament I see the higher law. When I read the Doctrine and Covenants I see the Lord's restored interpretation of that higher law. When I read the words of modern prophets and General Conference I see up the minute application of the higher law.

While the Lord said that he fulfilled the lower law, if you read and study the 10 Commandment and the Law of Moses in connection with the Sermon on the Mount for example, you see that the higher law does not drop the lower law, it actually refines it and makes it more encompasing. It is action plus emotion. It is Letter plus Spirit.

A few example: in the 10 Commandments we are told that we are not to kill: an action. In the Sermon on the Mount we are told not to be angry with our brother: an emotion. Avoiding anger should help keep us even farther from the act of killing. 10 Commandments: don't commit adultery. Sermon on the Mount: don't lust. See how Christ actually adds to the command, not take away from it or give permission to now break it?

My trying to live the letter AND the spirit of the law is, I believe, exactly what Christ was getting at. Granted, there are exceptions to the letter in deference to the Spirit, but we must be so careful about those exceptions. It is my understanding from the scriptures that it is not we who ask for the exception, but the Lord who commands it. And even then, it appears to be hard for those who are commanded to do so to be that exception. A few example: Nephi killing Laban or Peter being commanded to eat unclean food.

The real downfall of the Pharasees wasn't that they tried to live the law, it was that they tried to change it to be popular. They added action to action without understanding the emotion. They added Letters to the law, but missed the Spirit. Do you really think the Lord intended them to disobey the law He had given? Even in the Book of Mormon the righteous Nephite say they understood the law of sacrifice was symbolic, but they kept the law until it was fulfilled, because they also understood it was required. They understood obedience to the Letter of the Law because they understood the Spirit of the Law.

Another example that might be confusing is the fact that sacrifice by blood is fulfulled, but again, the Lord doesn't get rid of the law entirely. Just sacrice "by blood," we are now to sacrifice our hearts (In this case emotion, or the Spirit, again takes precedence over action). But if we sacrifice our heart to Christ, do our actions not change? Do they not become more refined? More Christ-like?

One final point, I am not about to teach anybody they can't get the celestial kingdom if they drink caffiene, especially your kids in primary. We are a church of converts. Even those "born in the covenant" must be converted sooner or later or fall away. But chipping away at the faith of those who actually try to live the Letter of the Law because of their understanding of the Spirit doesn't really help anybody come closer to Christ.

I have had my fair share of my kids being taught things that aren't doctrinal, or even true, at church. My kids know that those who serve in church are doing so because they love God. He accepts their offering and so do we. We are also required to recieve our own witness though and that means study and prayer, not just accepting whatever we hear.

Even as an adult I had an interesting experience with a non-doctrinal Relief Society lesson. The week that gay marriage was made legal by the Supreme Court our Relief Society teacher abdicated her responsibility to teach and instead invited her lesbian friend to come and "comfort" us and provide counsel to us as to dealing with this new reality. She included many "facts" as she understood them. It was uncomfortable. I prayed to know if I should leave or if I should make any comments. I felt impressed to stay put and stay quiet. At some point a member of the RS Presidency went and invited the bishop to come in. He stayed silent in the doorway and listened. At the end of her presentation she commented on how nice eveyone was and respectful. The next week the bishop came to RS and apologized and explained that all who are invited to speak in church must be approved by their bishop, the stake president and our bishop. Even when he invited a guest speaker from outside our ward to give a 5th Sunday lesson he receive approval. We then had special, and doctrinal, lesson from the Gospel Principles manual on Family.

There was no public shaming, just clarification of the rules. No one was rude. I also know, because obviously individual members of the ward discussed their feelings, no one was angry or even lost their testimony because of the incident. With regard to the sister who was suppose to teach, everyone understood that she was trying to follow the Spirit of the Law as she understood it, but missed the Letter. And we all still loved her. And we all still went to church. And we all understood that we all make mistakes and the ward survived. And the Church is still true. And Christ is still our Savior. And God is still our Heavenly Father.

So, while sometimes I get tired of feeling judged for trying to do what I believe is right. I am certain (as evidenced by this thread) there are others who feel judged for trying to do what they believe is right.

I am glad that you go to church even when it is hard. I am glad I go to church even when it is hard. lol. I hope we are both humble enough to keep learning. :ymhug:

Excellent thoughts!

[Elizabeth]

[Matchmaker]

Long time listener, first time caller.

First, let me start by saying that I love my Father in Heaven, am grateful for my Savior, and have a firm belief in His gospel and Plan of Salvation. I basically grew up in the Church; I served a mission, of which I am ever grateful; I have been sealed in the temple; in short, I've done "everything I was​ supposed to do" so far. I feel that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the institution through which I have the best chance of drawing near Christ. I am in no way anti-Mormon.

However, over the last few years, the last year more specifically, I feel myself becoming anti-member or anti-LDS culture (if that can be considered a thing). I'm tired of people, ha ha. One of my brothers, who had never been active, finally started coming to church, received the Melchizedek Priesthood, and really turned his life around. After attending for a few months, we were talking about our ward and our dwindling sacrament meeting attendance. He said, "The reason so many seats are empty is because of the ones who fill them." He couldn't have been more right.

To my point (if there is one)- I've noticed for years, but moreso recently, that we have a tendency to teach culture, tradition, and personal thoughts, feelings, and revelation as doctrine. A few months ago my children learned in primary that drinking caffeinated soda was a sin- just one example. As if teaching false doctrine weren't bad enough, we sometimes hold the rest of the members to our misguided (or at least personal) standards. These include, but are definitely not limited to, caffeine, watching R rated movies, being clean shaven and having short hair (men), wearing a white shirt and tie, turning down a calling, etc, etc. I'll refrain from giving an exhaustive list. We all know it happens. I guess I've been noticing a greater divide: on one side, the vitriol has reached new heights and on the other, more people are put off by it. Culture has made it impossible to be a "good" member of the Church. It's never enough, it seems.

I guess what I'm getting at is, 1- I hate LDS culture, it seems to get in the way of the Gospel, and 2- I wonder what we can do about it. At this point, all I know is that I must teach my family correct principles and how to use the Spirit to learn and recognize​ truth. Listening to General Conference, talking to people, and following some of the threads here helps me realize that it's not just me- for the longest, I thought I just wasn't diligent enough, worthy enough, etc. Feels like the wheat are being separated from the tares but the tares think they are wheat. Matthew 7:22-23 has been heavy on my mind.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Thank you for a thoughtful post and for the courage to jump in the water with the rest of us. I agree that one finds all kinds of individuals in a Ward, and some are more offensive to listen to than others, especially those who think they know it all and tend to monopolize classes with their own stories, personal feelings and interpretation of the gospel.

In regard to movies and such, I can only speak for myself, but I am convinced that if I never watched another R or PG13 movie or TV sitcom again, I would become a better person as a result of the change. I can't keep my thoughts clean and pure, not to mention having the Holy Spirit as my companion, when I'm listening to a litany of swear words, voyeuristically watching two people who aren't married having sex with each other or viewing graphic bloody killings, and I doubt anyone else could either. In this case especially, I consider any counsel coming out of the Prophet's mouth to be doctrine and not just a suggestion.

[inho]

"The reason so many seats are empty is because of the ones who fill them."

This is the paradox. I often feel the same way. Yet, I am happy that the people already filling the seats are there, they need the church as much as anyone else. I would love to have only near perfect people in my ward, but unfortunately that is not conceivable. I would love to have teachers who wouldn't teach any undoctrinal or cultural things, but we just don't have so many so good members in my ward.

I guess the first step is to make sure that I act in the way that does not keep any seats empty.

[Irrelevant]

I am so sick of this, my first thoughts are, " Get a real problem" there are people who have lost a child, or have been cheated on, have a child with extreme autism, etc. and being worried about church culture is the least of their problems. I have a friend whose Mothersl last child was born with mental issues and club feet, she put his arms on her shoulders and drug him around until she didn't have the strength to do it anymore. She finally put him in a home and cried everyday the rest of her life.

Then there are people who are butt hurt about Joseph Smith living pologamy, something we all knew. Give it a rest and get a real problem, this is acting like the crybabies democrats!

What are your second or third thoughts, Eddie? Maybe you should take time to review all of your thoughts before jumping.

I am so glad you bring up the fact that people are dealing with much worse problems. Those are some of the people most affected by it. We really never know the full extent of what a person is going through at any given time. So when people with "real problems" do come to us, looking for peace and comfort it's great if we help provide that.

No one said anything about polygamy as far as I know. For the record, I voted for Castle (so don't blame me). I haven't seen anyone acting like crybaby Democrats or even regular crybabies, for that matter.

The reason this matters to me is for the very "real problem" people you mention. They turn to the gospel for understanding, peace, and strength. Are we not to strengthen our brothers​ (and sisters)? You are right, the least of the​ir worries should be church culture.

[2EstablishZion]

Hmm, real problems...

If someone feels like a loved member of a community, there are few if any trials that they cannot face and overcome.

If, on the other hand, someone is feeling isolated and as if they are going thru difficulties alone, then a molehill problem can become a mountain.

Certainly someone struggling with "church history issues", which may or may not be impacting their faith in the restored gospel, is not undergoing a "crybaby problem". I would suggest that anyone making such characterizations is pointing the finger of scorn, and is perhaps not where they think they are. The Great and Spacious building has quite a few wings, I suspect many residing there are quite self-assured of their reserved seat in the Kingdom.

[Irrelevant]

Hmm, real problems...

If someone feels like a loved member of a community, there are few if any trials that they cannot face and overcome.

If, on the other hand, someone is feeling isolated and as if they are going thru difficulties alone, then a molehill problem can become a mountain.

Certainly someone struggling with "church history issues", which may or may not be impacting their faith in the restored gospel, is not undergoing a "crybaby problem". I would suggest that anyone making such characterizations is pointing the finger of scorn, and is perhaps not where they think they are. The Great and Spacious building has quite a few wings, I suspect many residing there are quite self-assured of their reserved seat in the Kingdom.

Thank you. We never know what someone is dealing with- or what (some may see as a) non-issue will be the last straw.

It seems in Matthew, that those who "work iniquity" are surprised to learn it. The true litmus test is not church attendance (which is a good thing) or anything physical, but the heart. I imagine that many will be surprised that their reserved seat is given to another, but moreso to see who takes it.

[Silver]

For the record, I voted for Castle (so don't blame me). I haven't seen anyone acting like crybaby Democrats or even regular crybabies, for that matter.

I knew I liked you!

[David13]

"The reason so many seats are empty is because of the ones who fill them."

This is the paradox. I often feel the same way. Yet, I am happy that the people already filling the seats are there, they need the church as much as anyone else. I would love to have only near perfect people in my ward, but unfortunately that is not conceivable. I would love to have teachers who wouldn't teach any undoctrinal or cultural things, but we just don't have so many so good members in my ward.

I guess the first step is to make sure that I act in the way that does not keep any seats empty.

I feel that I don't get enough or any feedback from the ward. They are all too "non-judgmental".
The only thing I got was "if you are going to work in the Temple the beard has to go". Which I'm only just ready to work in the Temple now and I don't know if that's true at all Temples.
And also, "well, there are some here who are praying that you don't move to Utah". But I realized that was just selfishness, or wardiness. They don't want the ward reduced by one member.

I could well appreciate at least some admonition about whether I'm doing right or wrong. I get very little to none.

So I do not believe for one minute that there is anyone who is driving anyone out of our ward.

However, I am well aware that booze, drugs, pro homo and other immorality tv, movies, radio, etc is keeping people far away from a church that even suggests morality of any type.

So I'm not too ready to blame anything on those I see as at least somewhat righteous. But I will blame the society that today values immorality as the highest goal.

I'm one of these oddballs who likes to place responsibility where it belongs.

I also say 'principles, not personalities'. That means those I see in the ward are not perfect and would not claim they are perfect, but are far closer to where I think they should be.

dc

[Juliet]

Some of these feelings are because your spirit is picking up on much more sinister evil then what you talked about here. Yes, Mormons are exceptionally self righteous. It is better that we smite our chest and acknowledge our own sins, then to count up the fact that we served a mission, married in the temple, paid our tithing, and have a recommend.

Luke 18:9-14, which was quoted at our last general conference, states:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

But that fact of the matter is, there is a huge spiritual war going on between Satan and Jesus, that being a member of the church does not protect us from others in our midst that are literally members of the synagogue of Satan.

Revelations Ch 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

I grew up Mormon, and now that I am 28, I now have a fuller history of my ptsd from being traumatized and tortured since birth to become a mind controlled manchurian slave. And I was tortured by members of my ward, and my family who are all temple recommend worthy members.

When I went to Dachau in Germany, a WW2 concentration camp, one of the points on the plaques on the wall, was that the people living in the camp were forced to keep the camp exceptionally clean. A coffee stain would result in being hung by your wrists for an hour. The point is, that the camp had to be so clean that no one would suspect the horror and death that was truly going on in there. I learned then, that if that is how Hitler works, that is how Satan works. He makes his servants appear so perfect, spotlessly clean, that real people can never measure up. Of course, these members are truly hypocrites.

[Rose Garden]

The problem I have seen, including in myself, is that it seems that people are least charitable of the people who are guilty of the exact sins they have repented of. Partly, I think it gives someone who has overcome a particular sin an un-earned sense of superiority. Perhaps they also don't like the reminder of who they used to be. Who knows all the reasons?

Most people are just looking to be genuinely loved. Many of their faults they would happily discard in exchange for acceptance. But for whatever reason - well ultimately Satan and our own weaknesses - we all drive many away with our pride.

I had a friend who told me, much to my discomfort, that you haven't fully repented of a sin until it no longer bothers you to see it in others. I really wanted her to be wrong but what she said nagged at me relentlessly every time I was bothered by others exhibiting my past sins. After putting the idea to the test, I have to concur. If a sin still bothers you when you see it in others, there is still something of it within your heart and you need to continue to seek repentance until you are fully at peace.

[brlenox]

Long time listener, first time caller.

First, let me start by saying that I love my Father in Heaven, am grateful for my Savior, and have a firm belief in His gospel and Plan of Salvation. I basically grew up in the Church; I served a mission, of which I am ever grateful; I have been sealed in the temple; in short, I've done "everything I was​ supposed to do" so far. I feel that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the institution through which I have the best chance of drawing near Christ. I am in no way anti-Mormon.

However, over the last few years, the last year more specifically, I feel myself becoming anti-member or anti-LDS culture (if that can be considered a thing). I'm tired of people, ha ha. One of my brothers, who had never been active, finally started coming to church, received the Melchizedek Priesthood, and really turned his life around. After attending for a few months, we were talking about our ward and our dwindling sacrament meeting attendance. He said, "The reason so many seats are empty is because of the ones who fill them." He couldn't have been more right.

To my point (if there is one)- I've noticed for years, but moreso recently, that we have a tendency to teach culture, tradition, and personal thoughts, feelings, and revelation as doctrine. A few months ago my children learned in primary that drinking caffeinated soda was a sin- just one example. As if teaching false doctrine weren't bad enough, we sometimes hold the rest of the members to our misguided (or at least personal) standards. These include, but are definitely not limited to, caffeine, watching R rated movies, being clean shaven and having short hair (men), wearing a white shirt and tie, turning down a calling, etc, etc. I'll refrain from giving an exhaustive list. We all know it happens. I guess I've been noticing a greater divide: on one side, the vitriol has reached new heights and on the other, more people are put off by it. Culture has made it impossible to be a "good" member of the Church. It's never enough, it seems.

I guess what I'm getting at is, 1- I hate LDS culture, it seems to get in the way of the Gospel, and 2- I wonder what we can do about it. At this point, all I know is that I must teach my family correct principles and how to use the Spirit to learn and recognize​ truth. Listening to General Conference, talking to people, and following some of the threads here helps me realize that it's not just me- for the longest, I thought I just wasn't diligent enough, worthy enough, etc. Feels like the wheat are being separated from the tares but the tares think they are wheat. Matthew 7:22-23 has been heavy on my mind.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I have a son who for most of his life has been obedient to the Gospel. He always chose to do the right thing, he measures and weighs his decisions carefully and he stays as far away from bad behavior as possible. He wore a white shirt, and did not go to R-rated movies and we have always eschewed caffeinated drinks. He remained clean shaven and so on.

Most people would consider this a good thing. However, after his mission, I decided to mention to him an observation that I thought his obedience was a faithless act and of little worth as his primary motivator was a fear to do wrong.

His motivation was not because he had chosen to serve Jesus Christ but because he was afraid to let others down or to make a bad impression. He took what I said to heart and over the next couple of years he "let his hair down so to speak". For that period of time, if he got too busy and didn't feel like going to church - he didn't go that week and maybe the next and maybe the next and...sometimes he didn't shave for weeks on end and an occasional R-rated movie slipped into his purview of experience.

After this couple of years, he realized that he was missing something. He worked on improving his testimony of Jesus Christ and in gaining an earnest desire to serve him. He was successful in doing so. My son goes to church every Sunday now, he wears a white shirt, he has chosen for the right reasons to not go to R-rated movies and again, as before, he avoids caffeinated drinks. He is obedient because he chooses to be and he knows his Savior better now than ever before.

It is not the outward behaviors that prove ones testimony. This is true as I believe you are trying to indicate in your post. However, neither is it wrong to teach these things as a means of establishing a standard for God's children.

Frankly your post is more reflective of you and your testimony than anything relative to your ward. You've padded it nicely to fit the bill of a Mikey Mormon all firm in the faith and such but the specifics of your complaint are in opposition. As an example let's analyze going to R rated movies. It is not an appropriate behavior. Maybe you have some filter that you use that weeds out the "bad" ones and so you think others are acceptable and I can see that as a possibility. However, if something as insignificant as an R-rated movie is worth your potentially being exposed to the seedier things in life that's your call - you can do that. You'll be right sometimes that the material is really not that bad, but other times you will be wrong and yet you will sit there and you will tolerate having mud slung all over that white shirt and "spotted" by the things of the world because you fought for the wrong cause. You fought for the right to get dirty. However, you could have fought to purify your heart, and mind that virtue garnish your thoughts unceasingly.

Satan loves to switch the targets on us all the time. In your case it seems you have developed an aversion to what you perceive as hypocritical or superficial observances that you have qualified as having no meaning in the big scheme of things. I can understand that and perhaps I have seen my own wanderings in unrighteous judgement of others travel the same paths as you are describing in this post. However, it seems an impossible task to craft a post such as this one defining the hypocrisy and superficiality of others without revealing that he who crafts the post is full of hypocrisy and superficiality. You are allowing a wedge of discontent motivate you into the wrong camp. It is your testimony that must needs be shored up. However, maybe like my son you are just doing all the right things for the wrong reasons. It doesn't make the right things wrong - it just makes you wrong.

Maybe you need to realize that you can do what ever you want. Agency permits that. For some it is not a safe journey to undertake as they get trapped in the worlds devices. That may happen to you. I can almost guarantee however that something similar may happen to you if you do not focus on where the problem really lies...and it's not most likely your ward as much as it is clearly yourself. Take some time off, if you must. You claim to have a strong testimony of your Savior but if you once possessed that pure love of Christ it is clearly being imposed upon by your condemnations of others. I'm not saying that the conditions you describe do not exist in some peoples in the church but that a Christ based response is probably going to be less about self-righteousness and more about - "Lord what would you have me do"

I am pleased that my son realized it is not about the white shirt, and the movies, and the drinks in the big scheme of things. However, I am grateful beyond measure that he grew to understand his Savior's heart and that he now knows why he is choosing to wear the white shirt, avoid the movies and that he does so because he has truly grown into an obedient servant who can and will assist others in overcoming the same hurtles he has had to overcome. It's working for him, perhaps it can work for you.

[shadow]

Well, I'm tired of people going to church to look at other people.

Amen!
It seems those who complain the most are the prideful ones who have a lack of charity towards their imperfect brothers and sisters. If they can get it into their heads that people who go to and serve in church aren't perfect and if they can love them anyway then I suspect the cultural issues they're struggling with will dissipate.

On one hand people here gripe that everything is correlated and then they gripe when people leave the correlated material and teach their own opinions like drinking a Coke. Dang if the church does and dang if they don't.

[Irrelevant]

Long time listener, first time caller.

First, let me start by saying that I love my Father in Heaven, am grateful for my Savior, and have a firm belief in His gospel and Plan of Salvation. I basically grew up in the Church; I served a mission, of which I am ever grateful; I have been sealed in the temple; in short, I've done "everything I was​ supposed to do" so far. I feel that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the institution through which I have the best chance of drawing near Christ. I am in no way anti-Mormon.

However, over the last few years, the last year more specifically, I feel myself becoming anti-member or anti-LDS culture (if that can be considered a thing). I'm tired of people, ha ha. One of my brothers, who had never been active, finally started coming to church, received the Melchizedek Priesthood, and really turned his life around. After attending for a few months, we were talking about our ward and our dwindling sacrament meeting attendance. He said, "The reason so many seats are empty is because of the ones who fill them." He couldn't have been more right.

To my point (if there is one)- I've noticed for years, but moreso recently, that we have a tendency to teach culture, tradition, and personal thoughts, feelings, and revelation as doctrine. A few months ago my children learned in primary that drinking caffeinated soda was a sin- just one example. As if teaching false doctrine weren't bad enough, we sometimes hold the rest of the members to our misguided (or at least personal) standards. These include, but are definitely not limited to, caffeine, watching R rated movies, being clean shaven and having short hair (men), wearing a white shirt and tie, turning down a calling, etc, etc. I'll refrain from giving an exhaustive list. We all know it happens. I guess I've been noticing a greater divide: on one side, the vitriol has reached new heights and on the other, more people are put off by it. Culture has made it impossible to be a "good" member of the Church. It's never enough, it seems.

I guess what I'm getting at is, 1- I hate LDS culture, it seems to get in the way of the Gospel, and 2- I wonder what we can do about it. At this point, all I know is that I must teach my family correct principles and how to use the Spirit to learn and recognize​ truth. Listening to General Conference, talking to people, and following some of the threads here helps me realize that it's not just me- for the longest, I thought I just wasn't diligent enough, worthy enough, etc. Feels like the wheat are being separated from the tares but the tares think they are wheat. Matthew 7:22-23 has been heavy on my mind.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I have a son who for most of his life has been obedient to the Gospel. He always chose to do the right thing, he measures and weighs his decisions carefully and he stays as far away from bad behavior as possible. He wore a white shirt, and did not go to R-rated movies and we have always eschewed caffeinated drinks. He remained clean shaven and so on.

Most people would consider this a good thing. However, after his mission, I decided to mention to him an observation that I thought his obedience was a faithless act and of little worth as his primary motivator was a fear to do wrong.
Sound advice. I also feel that a father should always be a father, giving advice and even correction when necessary.

His motivation was not because he had chosen to serve Jesus Christ but because he was afraid to let others down or to make a bad impression. He took what I said to heart and over the next couple of years he "let his hair down so to speak". For that period of time, if he got too busy and didn't feel like going to church - he didn't go that week and maybe the next and maybe the next and...sometimes he didn't shave for weeks on end and an occasional R-rated movie slipped into his purview of experience.

After this couple of years, he realized that he was missing something. He worked on improving his testimony of Jesus Christ and in gaining an earnest desire to serve him. He was successful in doing so. My son goes to church every Sunday now, he wears a white shirt, he has chosen for the right reasons to not go to R-rated movies and again, as before, he avoids caffeinated drinks. He is obedient because he chooses to be and he knows his Savior better now than ever before.

It is not the outward behaviors that prove ones testimony. This is true as I believe you are trying to indicate in your post. However, neither is it wrong to teach these things as a means of establishing a standard for God's children.
I agree. My only issue is when we teach personal revelation or even just preference as doctrine, holding others to our personal standards.

Frankly your post is more reflective of you and your testimony than anything relative to your ward. You've padded it nicely to fit the bill of a Mikey Mormon all firm in the faith and such but the specifics of your complaint are in opposition. As an example let's analyze going to R rated movies. It is not an appropriate behavior. Maybe you have some filter that you use that weeds out the "bad" ones and so you think others are acceptable and I can see that as a possibility. However, if something as insignificant as an R-rated movie is worth your potentially being exposed to the seedier things in life that's your call - you can do that. You'll be right sometimes that the material is really not that bad, but other times you will be wrong and yet you will sit there and you will tolerate having mud slung all over that white shirt and "spotted" by the things of the world because you fought for the wrong cause. You fought for the right to get dirty. However, you could have fought to purify your heart, and mind that virtue garnish your thoughts unceasingly.
I've never heard the term before but I can assure you that I am no Mickey Mormon, as you say.
As I previously said, God has blessed me with an abundance of reasons to be humble (unfortunately,
that doesn't always mean that I am). I am no better than anyone, nor do I feel that I know something that others do not. I can assure you that I am well at the bottom of the totem pole. I have a long way to go. Any perceived padding was not with the intention of fitting any bill, rather to state upfront that I am pro-LDS, Church, Gospel, etc, as I have seen many posts here that are very much anti. I do not fit any bill, frankly- nor do I pretend to. I'm sorry it came across that way and took great care to ensure it wouldn't. I guess it just further proves my imperfection, of which I am well aware.
You are correct; I do have a filter. That which is good cometh from God. A few years ago I was so excited to sit down as a family and watch Back to the Future, which I loved as a kid. Boy was I surprised at the filthy language in that PG movie! So much so that we promptly turned it off and haven't watched it since. I would never harshly judge another for choosing to watch it, however. It is personal.

Satan loves to switch the targets on us all the time. In your case it seems you have developed an aversion to what you perceive as hypocritical or superficial observances that you have qualified as having no meaning in the big scheme of things. I can understand that and perhaps I have seen my own wanderings in unrighteous judgement of others travel the same paths as you are describing in this post. However, it seems an impossible task to craft a post such as this one defining the hypocrisy and superficiality of others without revealing that he who crafts the post is full of hypocrisy and superficiality. You are allowing a wedge of discontent motivate you into the wrong camp. It is your testimony that must needs be shored up. However, maybe like my son you are just doing all the right things for the wrong reasons. It doesn't make the right things wrong - it just makes you wrong.
No doubt I am a hypocrite. Again, I have no problem with observances, only forcing others to live by personal standards. I see it turn people away from the Church and the Gospel. I too am guilty of turning people away by my actions and words and have never said anything to the contrary. Full of hypocrisy,? Yes. Superficiality? I'm not sure about that one. I would like to think that I do my best but I know that even in this I fall short.

Maybe you need to realize that you can do what ever you want. Agency permits that. For some it is not a safe journey to undertake as they get trapped in the worlds devices. That may happen to you. I can almost guarantee however that something similar may happen to you if you do not focus on where the problem really lies...and it's not most likely your ward as much as it is clearly yourself. Take some time off, if you must. You claim to have a strong testimony of your Savior but if you once possessed that pure love of Christ it is clearly being imposed upon by your condemnations of others. I'm not saying that the conditions you describe do not exist in some peoples in the church but that a Christ based response is probably going to be less about self-righteousness and more about - "Lord what would you have me do"
I'm not sure where you've managed to find self-righteousness in me. I don't feel righteous enough to have it. I'm not sure if it's that you didn't fully read my post or if you were reading it with the intention of getting to the bottom of me. Believe me, if you want to find fault with me you needn't look far. But I meant what I said, how I said it- no ulterior motives.

I am pleased that my son realized it is not about the white shirt, and the movies, and the drinks in the big scheme of things. However, I am grateful beyond measure that he grew to understand his Savior's heart and that he now knows why he is choosing to wear the white shirt, avoid the movies and that he does so because he has truly grown into an obedient servant who can and will assist others in overcoming the same hurtles he has had to overcome. It's working for him, perhaps it can work for you.

I am happy to hear that your son has overcome his hurdles. He sounds like a good man and you should be proud.
My testimony is weak and my faith is lacking. I suspect that it will always be that way, no matter how much I grow, until that faith turns into a perfect knowledge.

[Serragon]

When you are part of a culture you don't particularly care for, you have the opportunity to help change it.

[Silver]

When you are part of a culture you don't particularly care for, you have the opportunity to help change it.

Good point. Your post reminded me of a quote I've enjoyed for a long time.

If you see in any given situation only what everybody else can see, you can be said to be so much a representative of your culture that you are a victim of it.
S. I. Hayakawa
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quot ... 53503.html

[eddie]

Ok, so I took a nap! Haha

Focus on the objective. Years ago when I conquered the word of wisdom, I thought I had my tecket to the Celestial Kingdom. I have since learned the gospel of Jesus Christ is infinite, we keep learning and growing in wisdom and strength. There is so much to do. If our focus is on eternal salvation, we won't focus on anything that does not lead us home to our Heavenly Father.