Tired of LDS culture

[Rensai]

Shadow, there are so many expressions by leaders or in scripture that seemingly validate differing points of conviction. You would agree that truth is not cryptic it simply needs to be understood... In our journey of life we need to be discerning of the many touch stones / emotional and intelectual moorings that can prove to be counter productive to our desired spiritual ascendancy. Shadow, you might agree that truth as it pertains to a true church needs to represent and bare the fruit of that claim. Just under a year after the Lord making the joyus statement that the church was the only true and living church upon the earth our same Lord tells us the same church is under condemnation. Yet in D&C 84-- I gather from the Lord's expressions his optimism that the church or we as individuals can have the condemnation lifted... Has it been lifted from the church? What does D&C 84 understood teach us how a Church can be true and living?

Yes, the church is under condemnation. In fact, I believe in that section he mentions that the higher Priesthood was taken from the wandering wilderness crew of Moses because of their sins, but He left them with the Aaronic Priesthood. In His church today, while under condemnation, He still left us with the higher Priesthood. He says to get out from the condemnation we need to remember the BOM and preach the Gospel. It's a church function to be missionaries to baptize people and bring them into the church (be numbered among the saints is the correct verbiage I believe). That's partly why I say you can't separate the church and the Gospel. A mission of the church is to teach the Gospel. Part of the Gospel is to be baptized by someone in the church who has authority to do so. Nobody outside the church has authority to baptize. Another inclusive part of the Gospel is Prophets and Apostles. In the D&C the Lord set it up that the Prophet is the President of the church. You cannot separate the Prophet from the church. The Lord hasn't done it so you can't either. The Prophet has the sealing keys. The Gospel is that a husband and wife are to be sealed in order to be together for eternity and to enter in the highest kingdom. That's a function the church has. You cannot separate the two. Sure, sometimes the doctrine is misunderstood even by prophets. Adam-God could be an example. But notice that the church wasn't led astray because of it. It was corrected. Both in the Bible and the D&C the Lord says sometimes it takes generations to get things right. Nobody is damned because Brigham taught his Adam-God theory unless they refuse to believe it once sufficient evidence has been presented to them. Not being baptized- that's damnable. Not accepting the Lords words via His Prophets- that's damnable (it's in the scriptures if you're doubting me). The Gospel and the church are so intertwined that they cannot be separated.

You have some good points there shadow. I can agree with some of this and we're pretty close on a couple other things. First thing, when you say "The Gospel and the church are so intertwined that they cannot be separated." It sounds like you at least see they are not the same thing and I agree, they are intertwined but I see it more like a venn diagram. You've got two circles, one is the gospel one is the church. They intersect, or are intertwined. In the gospel circle everything is good and true, it is perfect. Part of the gospel is taught to the church and part of it is the mysteries, that can only be taught by the holy ghost, outside of church teachings. In the church circle, there are two parts as well. The parts that intersect and support the gospel, baptism, preaching corrrect doctrines, etc. There is another part though, the false doctrine, the misguided traditions, cultural things, etc. that fall outside of the gospel. We should accept everything from the church where the two circles are intertwined, but things outside of that area, may be good, bad, or something that simply doesn't interest someone. A good mormon would hold to the parts that intersect.

[BackBlast]

Yes, the church is under condemnation. In fact, I believe in that section he mentions that the higher Priesthood was taken from the wandering wilderness crew of Moses because of their sins, but He left them with the Aaronic Priesthood. In His church today, while under condemnation, He still left us with the higher Priesthood.

Just a few quick points on this. I believe you are correct, that the condemnation remains as long as the cause remains. I've not seen anything to the contrary, yet.

Yes, we have something that we call a higher priesthood. However, the focus and current purpose of the church remains Aaronic functions as a preparatory organization. To bring people into baptism, provide the sacrament, and point people to the temple where they are taught a personal path that they should walk.

As a people, we do not wish to enter the presence of the Lord and learn from him ourselves, but prefer that Moses go and speak with him on our behalf. Just like Israel of old.

He says to get out from the condemnation we need to remember the BOM and preach the Gospel. It's a church function to be missionaries to baptize people and bring them into the church (be numbered among the saints is the correct verbiage I believe). That's partly why I say you can't separate the church and the Gospel. A mission of the church is to teach the Gospel. Part of the Gospel is to be baptized by someone in the church who has authority to do so. Nobody outside the church has authority to baptize. Another inclusive part of the Gospel is Prophets and Apostles.

I'm picking on you a little bit here, but this is a general failing. We call it "the gospel", but what we mean by it is "the teachings of the church" rather than "faith on Christ, repentance - a gift from Christ, baptism as an acceptance of Christ in covenant, and the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost - the heavenly proof of acceptance of your covenant, with all the heavenly gifts that accompanies it". We conflate doctrine with gospel - they are not the same. It is a topic that is clearly spelled out in the Book of Mormon. I believe this is part of why we remain under condemnation.

In the D&C the Lord set it up that the Prophet is the President of the church. You cannot separate the Prophet from the church.

And yet there are eras without Church, without a leader Prophet. Patriarchal orders that were closer to what is actually used in heaven. What we have isn't ideal, it's what we have. We also have a ways to go...

The Prophet has the sealing keys. The Gospel is that a husband and wife are to be sealed in order to be together for eternity and to enter in the highest kingdom. That's a function the church has.

The function of the church is to perform the ordinance, which opens the door. That's all it does. You, the recipient, must walk through that door - and it seems like so very few actually do. With a subtle deception the devil has created, we often view the ordinances as "It's yours to lose by unfaithfulness" instead of the proper "It is now yours to gain through your faithfulness". To enter the highest kingdom you must have all of these ordinances ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise, otherwise they are of no effect in the world to come.