Tired of LDS culture

[Irrelevant]

Long time listener, first time caller.

First, let me start by saying that I love my Father in Heaven, am grateful for my Savior, and have a firm belief in His gospel and Plan of Salvation. I basically grew up in the Church; I served a mission, of which I am ever grateful; I have been sealed in the temple; in short, I've done "everything I was​ supposed to do" so far. I feel that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the institution through which I have the best chance of drawing near Christ. I am in no way anti-Mormon.

However, over the last few years, the last year more specifically, I feel myself becoming anti-member or anti-LDS culture (if that can be considered a thing). I'm tired of people, ha ha. One of my brothers, who had never been active, finally started coming to church, received the Melchizedek Priesthood, and really turned his life around. After attending for a few months, we were talking about our ward and our dwindling sacrament meeting attendance. He said, "The reason so many seats are empty is because of the ones who fill them." He couldn't have been more right.

To my point (if there is one)- I've noticed for years, but moreso recently, that we have a tendency to teach culture, tradition, and personal thoughts, feelings, and revelation as doctrine. A few months ago my children learned in primary that drinking caffeinated soda was a sin- just one example. As if teaching false doctrine weren't bad enough, we sometimes hold the rest of the members to our misguided (or at least personal) standards. These include, but are definitely not limited to, caffeine, watching R rated movies, being clean shaven and having short hair (men), wearing a white shirt and tie, turning down a calling, etc, etc. I'll refrain from giving an exhaustive list. We all know it happens. I guess I've been noticing a greater divide: on one side, the vitriol has reached new heights and on the other, more people are put off by it. Culture has made it impossible to be a "good" member of the Church. It's never enough, it seems.

I guess what I'm getting at is, 1- I hate LDS culture, it seems to get in the way of the Gospel, and 2- I wonder what we can do about it. At this point, all I know is that I must teach my family correct principles and how to use the Spirit to learn and recognize​ truth. Listening to General Conference, talking to people, and following some of the threads here helps me realize that it's not just me- for the longest, I thought I just wasn't diligent enough, worthy enough, etc. Feels like the wheat are being separated from the tares but the tares think they are wheat. Matthew 7:22-23 has been heavy on my mind.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Sunain]

A few months ago my children learned in primary that drinking caffeinated soda was a sin- just one example. As if teaching false doctrine weren't bad enough, we sometimes hold the rest of the members to our misguided (or at least personal) standards. These include, but are definitely not limited to, caffeine, watching R rated movies, being clean shaven and having short hair (men), wearing a white shirt and tie, turning down a calling, etc, etc. I'll refrain from giving an exhaustive list. We all know it happens. I guess I've been noticing a greater divide: on one side, the vitriol has reached new heights and on the other, more people are put off by it. Culture has made it impossible to be a "good" member of the Church. It's never enough, it seems.

I get where you are coming from. There are a lot of LDS social cues that just annoy many people and I think I agree with you on most points. I think it comes mainly from the fact that some of these LDS cultural social cues aren't really taught specifically in missionary discussions, so new members or even returning members get a bit sideswiped.

Caffeine is a psychoactive substance which crosses the blood-brain barrier to stimulate the central nervous system. Caffeine specifically in soda pop is an added substance that has been proven many times to be addictive and has withdrawal symptoms. While not specifically listed in the Word of Wisdom, most members of the church acknowledge that it can be harmful. Personally I do not drink pop very often due to the high sugar content which I believe is more harmful but members shouldn't go after other members that drink soda pop.

The rated R movies issue is a bit of an issue though. A modern day prophet, President Ezra Taft Benson in 1986, told the youth specifically to avoid R-rated movies. I like many members of the church believe that this is good modern day revelation. Now there are some movies that are R-rated that are fine in my opinion and I've actually seen worse PG-13/AA movies. R-rated movies in generally though are rated that high because of violence, nudity, ect. Thankfully since the days of the VHS, we've had the fast forward button. If I know there is a movie I would like to see and is pretty good overall except for a few scenes, I will wait till its out on DVD/Bluray now so that I have the ability to skip over the scenes whereas in a movie theater I would be forced to watch it.

We counsel you, young men, not to pollute your minds with such degrading matter, for the mind through which this filth passes is never the same afterwards. Don't see R-rated movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive, or pornographic. Don't listen to music that is degrading
(Ensign, May 1986, p 43).
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/05/to-t ... t?lang=eng

[Silver]

The OP has coherently described the modern-day danger of becoming more Pharisaical than the Pharisees in Jerusalem in the Lord's day. It's something that forces me to look in the mirror and question my motivations and behavior. I'm sure I don't do that often enough.

[David13]

It seems to me rather than "culture" or "doctrine" is that these are personality differences.
Maybe this is one of those situations where a reasonable amount of tolerance is appropriate.
dc

[Original_Intent]

The problem I have seen, including in myself, is that it seems that people are least charitable of the people who are guilty of the exact sins they have repented of. Partly, I think it gives someone who has overcome a particular sin an un-earned sense of superiority. Perhaps they also don't like the reminder of who they used to be. Who knows all the reasons?

Most people are just looking to be genuinely loved. Many of their faults they would happily discard in exchange for acceptance. But for whatever reason - well ultimately Satan and our own weaknesses - we all drive many away with our pride.

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

The OP is correct in regards to certain aspects of LDS culture being harmful in many ways, and I believe we'll start to see (and aready have) a movement back towards the principles and doctrines of the church away from the harmful cultural habits.
That being said, the OP brought up the subject in the correct way. Avoid those who would use the culture as an excuse to criticize the church as a whole.
The gospel is perfect but the people aren't. If anyone expects them to be they're going to be severely disappointed.

[drtanner]

Focusing on the behavior of those in the church will do little to change the culture. Teaching the Doctrine of Christ with love and the spirit gives us all the greatest opportunity to incite change through Christ.

One of my favorite examples is King Benjamin. The people he spoke to were members, had a temple, but experienced an amazing conversion. Why? The spirit caused them to see things as they really were (their awful state) as King Benjamin taught the Doctrine of Christ.

Mosiah 3:12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

[BackBlast]

Long time listener, first time caller.

Welcome to the show.

...
However, over the last few years, the last year more specifically, I feel myself becoming anti-member or anti-LDS culture (if that can be considered a thing). I'm tired of people, ha ha. ...

Sounds like you have a nice environment for personal growth. Loving and serving when it's hard is potentially very rewarding.

We elevate that culture one person at a time. Be that person, and let your light shine forth to others.

[Irrelevant]

The OP has coherently described the modern-day danger of becoming more Pharisaical than the Pharisees in Jerusalem in the Lord's day. It's something that forces me to look in the mirror and question my motivations and behavior. I'm sure I don't do that often enough.

The greatest blessing I have gotten out of this sort of epiphany is questioning my own motivation and behavior. I've come to realize that many things in my life were just because "that's the way we've always done things" or because I heard that someone once said something in General Conference about... In many ways I had been a slothful servant, not questioning things and taking them to my Father. I've definitely been guilty of keeping commandments that weren't even commandments myself. What hurts is watching some of my brothers and sisters do the same but also impose those things on and/or judge (especially) new and returning members by them. I've seen so many people leave and not come back because of it and I just hurt for them. I feel that I have much more in common with them than the "good and faithful" members who act that their church attendance exempts them from other, more important commandments (the two greatest as stated by the Savior, for example).

[Irrelevant]

Focusing on the behavior of those in the church will do little to change the culture. Teaching the Doctrine of Christ with love and the spirit gives us all the greatest opportunity to incite change through Christ. I agree with you. I guess I have both vented and sought a little advice here in the forum. I don't normally focus on it but I do point it out. How can we change if we see nothing wrong?

One of my favorite examples is King Benjamin. The people he spoke to were members, had a temple, but experienced an amazing conversion. Why? The spirit caused them to see things as they really were (their awful state) as King Benjamin taught the Doctrine of Christ.

Mosiah 3:12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

13 And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Its crucial that we understand the difference between the church and the gospel. The best kept secret in the church is the gospel. (and its not secret, we keep it hidden when we do not teach pure doctrine or do the things necessary to experience it in our life) I have a simple analogy I like to use to better understand this. IT IS THE BEST KEPT SECRET!! That is so on the money.

The church is like the gym. The gospel Is like the diet. The gym has perfect equipment, trainers, and decent programs to help us get in shape. Why do people stop going to the gym? They don't experience real change in their life. Why don't they experience change? Almost all of the time they workout like crazy get amazing motivation from trainers but neglect the diet. What is the hard part? What does everyone know they should do but always neglect? The diet. Don't get mad at the gym, the equipment, and the trainers for a lack of change when we neglect the diet.

The diet is our heart and true relationship with God. It is our communication / communion with him. It is searching for him in the scriptures, it is the media we feed ourself, our sabbath day observance, our motives, ultimately a measure of our true love for God. What happens when we work on the diet? We start to notice real change / transformation and the gym becomes an amazing experience. We then try and bring everyone else to the gym to experience what we experience, but if our message isn't to focus on the diet we do them a dis-service and risk them leaving. Our gym has perfect equipment, and the only equipment that can help us get in perfect shape. The trainers do there best to help us take full advantage of the equipment (ordinances / covenants) But those are meaningless without the diet. I like your analogy. The way I've explained it to my kids is that the Church is the glass and the Gospel is the water- the glass is necessary and great but the water is what's really important. Sometimes our focus is on the glass. Like you said earlier, it's crucial to see the difference between the Church and the Gospel.


Look at the culture when Christ was on the earth. What did he focus on, the diet. He didn't spend all of his time complaining about the realty of culture. He taught his gospel with love and encouraged people to focus on the a real relationship with the father through him and his gospel. He is the only way and teaching his gospel plainly and with the spirit is the only way that will help others change. As soon as we admit we are eating junk food and actually make an effort to change our diet we will start to experience conversion through Christ.

I was on board until you tried to take away my junk food. That's strike one ;)

[Elizabeth]

Anyone with any intelligence, common sense, or moral integrity, whether Christian or not, would avoid caffeine and R rated movies.

[Irrelevant]

Ha ha ha ha ha. Point proven. Thank you, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth]

He who laughs last laughs best and immorality and stupidity is nothing to be proud of.

[Alaris]

The Book of Mormon was specifically compiled and edited by Mormon and Moroni for us:

Mormon 8:35 35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing. (Moroni speaking)

There are all sorts of warnings in the Book of Mormon that warn us against what the OP is saying.

Missing the Mark:

Jacob 4:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

Pride:

Alma 4:9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.

The Jews made up laws - man made laws - to make themselves extra righteous, which is of course ridiculous ... counting steps on the sabbath. Forbidding specific activities ... man-made minutia. These activities resulted in a people full of pride & contention who focused on man-made minutia that led them to encounters such as this one:

Luke 6 6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
11 And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus.

This is the perfect example of both looking past the mark and being filled with so much pride they were unteachable.

This is why as soon as the "White Shirt" policy came out my stomach sunk. Not that the principle is bad - wearing white is a good thing - but spending too much time focusing on minutia is bad - time that's taken away from focusing on the things that matter. Are we doing good or evil? Are we saving lives or destroying them?

Caffeine is a great example of something that is obviously bad for you - common sense and the spirit of the Word of Wisdom says to avoid it. However, to declare it a sin just reeks of self-righteousness & pride. Who is the giver of the Word of Wisdom and who is the giver of the law? Not man.

[Alaris]

Long time listener, first time caller.

Hey thanks for the post! May I ask what state you are in?

[Irrelevant]

From Mississippi.

Man-made minutia. That's a great description.

[marc]

Missing the Mark:

Jacob 4:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

That mark was and is none other than Jesus Christ. The authors of the Book of Mormon made sure to let us know in no uncertain terms that what the Jews missed was the coming of a Savior--a Savior from sin and death and not from political enemies like the Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc.

As for "culture," I've seen it, too. I've seen first hand the pushback from members being compelled to wear their "priesthood uniform," maintain certain haircuts, being clean shaven, etc. This is all akin to becoming whited sepulchres, being beautiful on the outside, yet filled with "dead" men's bones. What does it profit us to appear godly if inwardly we are just as judgmental, uncharitable and pharisaical as the former-day saints?

Oh, by the way, I don't avoid caffeine. And I own "The Passion of Christ," a rated R movie. I will say that I don't watch TV and haven't for a decade now. Most of the stuff on there is pretty R rated anyway and I haven't watched anything on Netflix for a while. Much of the new stuff on there is MA. I don't care for sports or much anything that is worldly. Besides, watching some movie with this rating or that rating is just a way of rationalizing how much worldliness I'm willing to accept in my life. But I'm a recovering hypocrite, so sometimes I'll go to the movies to watch a fun show like Guardians of the Galaxy 2.

[oneClimbs]

Part of following Christ is loving people that annoy you. The only way to not be annoyed by people and their misgivings is to know God to the degree that you can see others as he does. Church is the perfect setting for this. How you react to church culture is a perfect litmus test of how much the love of God actually dwells in your heart.

You think your church culture is bad, well they probably haven't whipped and crucufied you yet. Even then Christ forgives them and gives them the benefit of the doubt, "they know not what they do." Are we greater than him?

Someone taught false doctrine about caffine? That's the last straw! We cannot let our pride, judgement, and arrogance overcome our love, saints.

[braingrunt]

no no no
First, Mormon's aren't even close to the pharisees in terms of rule count or variety.
Second, the problem here is not rules about R-rated movies, caffeine, or even suits. It's about people who view them as substitutes for weightier matters, particularly faith/hope/charity (and what did Jesus say about that: these you ought to have done and not leave the other undone. He didn't say to just scrap them).
And it's about people on the other hand, who are not humble and teachable, and don't want to implement prophetic counsel in their lives, and can't stand to be told they ought to.
And again on the other hand, it's about people who can't stand to see people thinking they are fine while they don't give a da**. I struggle with this. I don't care about perfection, but I do care when people don't have a teachable and repentant attitude (by that I don't mean depressed).

And, yes, it's about people who despise those who are not at their personal level. Which should NEVER EVER happen but certainly does sometimes.

If you can focus on the real problems and fix those, then you can go ahead and KEEP the good things in your culture, such as staying away from R-rated movies, and idealize avoiding caffeine etc. Those things are certainly good and if you can't stand to be told so, you have a problem..

[Irrelevant]

5tev3-
I'm working on loving others and suspect it will be a lifelong process. Most of my annoyance is in seeing how others are treated. Maybe it's silly of me to expect people who know what we know and want to share it with the world to be welcoming, kind, and understanding. I'm not anywhere near perfect. God has blessed me with many reasons to be humble.

No need to be sarcastic, I pretty much agree with you. If I have conveyed to you that I am prideful, judgemental, and arrogant, I apologize. Surely I am all of those things to some degree, but those are the things I wish to dispel.

[marc]

Part of the problem is discussing the problem. Or wait...part of the solution is discussing the problem. A good discussion where we can begin to understand one another, build bridges and mend fences, so to speak, is a big step in the right direction.

[oneClimbs]

5tev3-
I'm working on loving others and suspect it will be a lifelong process. Most of my annoyance is in seeing how others are treated. Maybe it's silly of me to expect people who know what we know and want to share it with the world to be welcoming, kind, and understanding. I'm not anywhere near perfect. God has blessed me with many reasons to be humble.

No need to be sarcastic, I pretty much agree with you. If I have conveyed to you that I am prideful, judgemental, and arrogant, I apologize. Surely I am all of those things to some degree, but those are the things I wish to dispel.

I believe that when we are blessed to see the problems around us, it is because there is something we can do about it, even if it is small.

I agree that it is hard to see people suffer with less than setellar teachings and attitudes, but this is how life is, the only saving grace are in the ones that can see and help heal in God's way. I feel the same things, it's natural to, but this is how I approach it.

[Alaris]

Since we are talking about LDS culture can I point out how much I can't stand the cutesy wootsy S'es that seems to be a requirement by the majority of General Primary and Relief Society? Too much?

[oneClimbs]

S'es?

[David13]

S'es?

Does he mean "high fives"? If so I agree.
I think "high fives" are appropriate for the basketball floor, the football field, and sports bar or similar settings.

Not in a church.

To me the "high five" is the most basic or animalistic form of male/male relations. Very gorilla or ape like. Not anything a gentleman would do.

Plus I'm white and I don't think white people are supposed to do "high fives" anyway.
dc

Huh, no, he says Relief Society. I have never seen any woman participate in the "high five". So he must mean something else. No idea what.