Two ways

[h_p]

Thanks, marc. When I started studying Isaiah, I had no idea how differently I would be viewing the Gospel a year later. There's so much to learn packed inside those 66 chapters, and I know I've really only started scratching the surface. What an amazing book!

[marc]

I'd like to switch gears briefly from Isaiah to shed light on another rebel who held sacrosanct what others paid lip service to. His name is William Tyndale. He once had a harsh meeting with a clergyman, which went like this:

The clergyman asserted to Tyndale, "We had better be without God's laws than the Pope's." Tyndale responded: "I defy the Pope, and all his laws; and if God spares my life, ere many years, I will cause the boy that driveth the plow to know more of the Scriptures than thou dost!" -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

Indeed about thee hundred years later, a plowboy could be so inspired to read James 1:5 and inquire directly of the Lord which church he should join. Perhaps Tyndale did not specifically mean Joseph Smith, but surely many plow boys and commoners obtained access to the Bible in English because of Tyndale's sacrifice.
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[marc]

This discussion has probably run its course, so I just want to add one more personal commentary, fast forwarding to chapter three. The first half of this chapter talks about the condition of the Lord's covenant people--what the Lord will deprive them of when Assyria comes to sweep them off, or in other words, what will be left, which is little to nothing. Most, if not all men will be wiped out, leaving some children/youth to "rule" whatever is left of the people. So now that we have a good idea of what will befall the "rulers of Sodom" and the "people of Gormorrah" or essentially, all the men who defile the temple with their vain offerings, the Lord tells us what He thinks of the women and what He will cause to happen to them:

16 ¶ Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Here the Lord considers the women "daughters of Zion." I find this interesting. Zion denotes an elect people. Whereas the men are fully corrupted and fit into a "Sodom and Gomorrah" category, the women are called "Zion." The main archetypes in the book of Isaiah include "Babylon," "Assyria," "Israel," and "Zion." So it's interesting to see the Lord address the Israelite men as "rulers of Sodom" and "people of Gomorrah" and the women as "daughters of Zion." But the women do not escape His judgment.

Isaiah goes to an extreme length to list all the varieties of dress and accessories that the women tend to wear. It isn't too difficult to see the same with today's women. I can't remember if it was a family member or a neighbor that once explained to me why women have to have so many shoes and clothes and stuff. She said that when they're little girls they dress up all their Barbies. But when they grow up, they become Barbie. Women seem programmed from an early age to "doll up" and accessorize. I'm not sure why. Maybe some of you ladies reading this can chime in with some input. But you seem to have to have an outfit for everything and your clothes have to be interchangeable, and match by colors or patterns or whatever.

As for men, we tend to compete to become Alpha males in our various circles and be in charge. Even the Lord's disciples kept bickering among themselves who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven among them. It's just a guy thing. We compete. I think that women are the same, but for a different reason. Women seem to tend to size each other up by how many more men they can attract than the next woman. They measure their worth by being able to attract the Alpha males or at least the most handsome ones and this can make them catty. I'm sure not all women are like this just like not all men have to be Alpha males. It's either that or women are just vain. So there you go ladies, please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know.

In any case, whereas the Lord will deliver the men up to be swept off by the sword, the women's covenant curse will be baldness and rags. The ancient Israelites had no clue they were about to be destroyed and left desolate. If we apply it to today, this could be interpreted to mean a nuclear holocaust or some kind of plague or both is about to befall us. And like the ancient people, a remnant will be left. We in the US are pretty ripe to be swept off. And there are enough passages in D&C that indicate the Lord's desolating scourge will begin first with the Lord's house among those who profess to know the Lord's name, but have not known Him.

D&C 112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I believe in this context, the Lord is referring to "house" as His covenant people (house of Israel) and not some temple or building. And really, the only candidate I can think of are the LDS, being the gentiles by whom the restoration of the fullness of the gospel was made.

[diligently seeking]

Marc, please don't bow out. Don't let the silence make you think that people aren't reading and benefiting. God has given you a gift of expounding these most important writings. please continue. Look at it this way-- you're benefiting so many of us-- plus sharpening your retention and skills for the very near future when you will be teaching and sharing these words with those you help gather to Zion...
Sincere appreciation for your inspired words. Jared

[marc]

I will continue as time permits. Much of my understanding of Isaiah comes from my overall reading of the scriptures, and the combined writings of Skousen, Nibley and Gileadi. I just kind of put it all together as the Spirit whispers. I can see the parallels very easily, though, but that is from years of study. Thank you for your kind words.

[drtanner]

I agree, the words of Isaiah are some of the most important we can become familiar with in. Thank you for your commentary Marc. Would love to hear any thoughts on what some of the different cities mentioned in Isaiah represent in our day?

[marc]

I agree, the words of Isaiah are some of the most important we can become familiar with in. Thank you for your commentary Marc. Would love to hear any thoughts on what some of the different cities mentioned in Isaiah represent in our day?

Well, if memory serves, the only city I can really think of that bears mentioning is Jerusalem. The northern kingdom is spread out among ten tribes led by Ephraim. The two rulers of both kingdoms are Judah (Southern kingdom) at Jerusalem, which also consisted of Ben, I think, and of course, the Levite priests so a small portion of Levi. The rest of the kingdoms that consist of the northern kingdom are ruled by Ephraim. And that also makes quite a parallel for today's covenant people (most LDS are of Ephraim according to their patriarchal blessings). Anyway, Jerusalem is the capital of the Israelite nation being where the temple sits. If I were to liken Jerusalem to any place today, it would be the Salt Lake City area, which consists of a bunch of other bunched up cities from the Orem/Provo area to the Brigham/Tremonton/Logan area up north. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. People always traveled "up" to Jerusalem and the same applies to Salt Lake City, which is located in the "tops of the mountains."

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah uses words like mountains to represent nations, trees to represent people (cedars, oaks), forests to represent cities, etc. So the above passage has a dual meaning for the historical context of the ancient people and the future context of what I believe we have today in Salt Lake City. So the mountain of the Lord's house would mean the latter-day covenant people (LDS). After all, we do have a hymn where we sing, "O Babylon, O Babylon, we bid thee farewell. We're going to the mountains of Ephraim to dwell." The mountains of Ephraim are obviously the Wasatch Mountains that run all along the "Mormon corridor in Northern Utah. The Rocky Mountains are high in elevation, probably higher than all other mountains and hills in the US. Not sure about the Apalachians, but I'm bad with geography. But I would think so if the Rockies are "exalted above the hills." And Salt Lake City has been a tourist attraction for a long time.

People from around the world visit and many relocate here (I live in Ogden, Utah, having moved years ago from Texas). As for why Isaiah likens Jerusalem (and SLC) to Zion, when neither have been redeemed, I don't know except to say that it is the ideal. We ought to be God's elect just as the ancient Israelites ought to have been. But I look all around me and Babylon is enmeshed here on the "tops of the mountains." We have "Zion's Bank" and all kinds of businesses with the name Zion, but we're far from Zion with our worship of Mammon. Remember that the Hebrew word for worship (Abad) is both work and worship. As Hugh Nibley once said, we are all just masquerading as Zion. Not surprising to see we are, as a whole, repeating history.

We live on a huge fault line and I live right next to an air force base, so I'm pretty much on ground zero of whatever might happen. Interestingly, though, the Lord has let me know that I am right where I'm suppose to be. So personally speaking, I am just waiting upon the Lord. People are always posting about a callout and making speculations, but if there is a callout, it will be silent and not on a mass exodus scale. That's my opinion. Lot was called out of Sodom and Gomorrah with his wife and two daughters by angels. Lehi was called out of Jerusalem by the Lord personally. So I don't believe whatsoever that Thomas S. Monson or the next church president will issue some callout from the pulpit. I believe we'll all be surprised by today's modern superpower(s) just like ancient Israel was surprised by Assyria, the unprecedented ancient world superpower of its day. And when destruction has finished sweeping over us, whatever remnant remains, including the few who did not pay lip service, but truly worshiped with broken hearts and contrite spirits and are spared as Lot and Lehi and the small dispersed tribes prior to destruction were spared, they will build the New Jerusalem to prepare to meet Jesus when He returns. If you read 3 Nephi chapters 20 and 21, you will see that any gentiles (Ephraim) that are spared will assist the remnant of Jacob (Lamanites who have the promise of being preserved) in building that city of Zion. It's all in the Book of Mormon.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

[Older/wiser?]

This discussion has probably run its course, so I just want to add one more personal commentary, fast forwarding to chapter three. The first half of this chapter talks about the condition of the Lord's covenant people--what the Lord will deprive them of when Assyria comes to sweep them off, or in other words, what will be left, which is little to nothing. Most, if not all men will be wiped out, leaving some children/youth to "rule" whatever is left of the people. So now that we have a good idea of what will befall the "rulers of Sodom" and the "people of Gormorrah" or essentially, all the men who defile the temple with their vain offerings, the Lord tells us what He thinks of the women and what He will cause to happen to them:

16 ¶ Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Here the Lord considers the women "daughters of Zion." I find this interesting. Zion denotes an elect people. Whereas the men are fully corrupted and fit into a "Sodom and Gomorrah" category, the women are called "Zion." The main archetypes in the book of Isaiah include "Babylon," "Assyria," "Israel," and "Zion." So it's interesting to see the Lord address the Israelite men as "rulers of Sodom" and "people of Gomorrah" and the women as "daughters of Zion." But the women do not escape His judgment.

Isaiah goes to an extreme length to list all the varieties of dress and accessories that the women tend to wear. It isn't too difficult to see the same with today's women. I can't remember if it was a family member or a neighbor that once explained to me why women have to have so many shoes and clothes and stuff. She said that when they're little girls they dress up all their Barbies. But when they grow up, they become Barbie. Women seem programmed from an early age to "doll up" and accessorize. I'm not sure why. Maybe some of you ladies reading this can chime in with some input. But you seem to have to have an outfit for everything and your clothes have to be interchangeable, and match by colors or patterns or whatever.

As for men, we tend to compete to become Alpha males in our various circles and be in charge. Even the Lord's disciples kept bickering among themselves who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven among them. It's just a guy thing. We compete. I think that women are the same, but for a different reason. Women seem to tend to size each other up by how many more men they can attract than the next woman. They measure their worth by being able to attract the Alpha males or at least the most handsome ones and this can make them catty. I'm sure not all women are like this just like not all men have to be Alpha males. It's either that or women are just vain. So there you go ladies, please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know.

In any case, whereas the Lord will deliver the men up to be swept off by the sword, the women's covenant curse will be baldness and rags. The ancient Israelites had no clue they were about to be destroyed and left desolate. If we apply it to today, this could be interpreted to mean a nuclear holocaust or some kind of plague or both is about to befall us. And like the ancient people, a remnant will be left. We in the US are pretty ripe to be swept off. And there are enough passages in D&C that indicate the Lord's desolating scourge will begin first with the Lord's house among those who profess to know the Lord's name, but have not known Him.

D&C 112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I believe in this context, the Lord is referring to "house" as His covenant people (house of Israel) and not some temple or building. And really, the only candidate I can think of are the LDS, being the gentiles by whom the restoration of the fullness of the gospel was made.

I have long held (because I do enjoy the depths of symbolism) that the "moon turning to blood" is fulfilled several ways regarding the people of the church. First the Lord Himself refers to His people in D&C 5:14 in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness--clear as the moon, and fair as the sun,and terrible as an army with banners. The Lord again in D&C 105:31 let my army be great, and let it be sanctified before me, that it may become fair as the sun, and clear as the moon and that her banners may be terrible unto all nations.

In the last days before the Lord comes it changes to the sun darkens and the" moon turns to blood", . If you think about it there is no power in the moon, it only reflects the light of the sun. I always liked this Moses 2:16 and I, God, made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night, and the greater light was the sun, and the lesser light was the moon; and the stars also were made even according to my word. In truth does not the Lord's Church, which so much is symbolized in Rev. rule in the darkest of night, as the Lord rules in the brightest of day. I think the symbolism follows you point. Upon my house it shall begin. As always just MHO.

[Rensai]

This discussion has probably run its course, so I just want to add one more personal commentary, fast forwarding to chapter three. The first half of this chapter talks about the condition of the Lord's covenant people--what the Lord will deprive them of when Assyria comes to sweep them off, or in other words, what will be left, which is little to nothing. Most, if not all men will be wiped out, leaving some children/youth to "rule" whatever is left of the people. So now that we have a good idea of what will befall the "rulers of Sodom" and the "people of Gormorrah" or essentially, all the men who defile the temple with their vain offerings, the Lord tells us what He thinks of the women and what He will cause to happen to them:

16 ¶ Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Here the Lord considers the women "daughters of Zion." I find this interesting. Zion denotes an elect people. Whereas the men are fully corrupted and fit into a "Sodom and Gomorrah" category, the women are called "Zion." The main archetypes in the book of Isaiah include "Babylon," "Assyria," "Israel," and "Zion." So it's interesting to see the Lord address the Israelite men as "rulers of Sodom" and "people of Gomorrah" and the women as "daughters of Zion." But the women do not escape His judgment.

Isaiah goes to an extreme length to list all the varieties of dress and accessories that the women tend to wear. It isn't too difficult to see the same with today's women. I can't remember if it was a family member or a neighbor that once explained to me why women have to have so many shoes and clothes and stuff. She said that when they're little girls they dress up all their Barbies. But when they grow up, they become Barbie. Women seem programmed from an early age to "doll up" and accessorize. I'm not sure why. Maybe some of you ladies reading this can chime in with some input. But you seem to have to have an outfit for everything and your clothes have to be interchangeable, and match by colors or patterns or whatever.

As for men, we tend to compete to become Alpha males in our various circles and be in charge. Even the Lord's disciples kept bickering among themselves who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven among them. It's just a guy thing. We compete. I think that women are the same, but for a different reason. Women seem to tend to size each other up by how many more men they can attract than the next woman. They measure their worth by being able to attract the Alpha males or at least the most handsome ones and this can make them catty. I'm sure not all women are like this just like not all men have to be Alpha males. It's either that or women are just vain. So there you go ladies, please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know.

In any case, whereas the Lord will deliver the men up to be swept off by the sword, the women's covenant curse will be baldness and rags. The ancient Israelites had no clue they were about to be destroyed and left desolate. If we apply it to today, this could be interpreted to mean a nuclear holocaust or some kind of plague or both is about to befall us. And like the ancient people, a remnant will be left. We in the US are pretty ripe to be swept off. And there are enough passages in D&C that indicate the Lord's desolating scourge will begin first with the Lord's house among those who profess to know the Lord's name, but have not known Him.

D&C 112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I believe in this context, the Lord is referring to "house" as His covenant people (house of Israel) and not some temple or building. And really, the only candidate I can think of are the LDS, being the gentiles by whom the restoration of the fullness of the gospel was made.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree about it meaning the LDS as the "house" it shall begin with, but it also says that's only the first. Then it will expand to become the cleansing of america, and other last days calamities, etc. I think there is an out for the righteous though.

For some, the out will simply be death in a more merciful way than what the plagues and things will bring. I'd like to think this is what is happening to the coptic Christians being slaughtered by Muslims for their faith in Christ for example.

1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

For others, it sounds like there will be another exodus, dodging around the calamities or something, with someone leading the people like Moses led the Israelites.

13 Behold, this is the blessing which I have promised after your tribulations, and the tribulations of your brethren—your redemption, and the redemption of your brethren, even their restoration to the land of Zion, to be established, no more to be thrown down.
14 Nevertheless, if they pollute their inheritances they shall be thrown down; for I will not spare them if they pollute their inheritances.
15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

My guess is that it would be the marred servant mentioned in 3 Nephi 20 and 21. He seems to come into the picture at just the right time, just before the remnant of Jacob begin destroying the gentiles.

40 And then shall they say: How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings unto them, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings unto them of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion: Thy God reigneth!
41 And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.
42 For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.
43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—
45 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

[marc]

Rensai, my understanding has always been that the marred man was Joseph Smith because the BoM was brought by way of the gentile to usher in the fulness of the Gentiles. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Your'e the second person I know to interpret the marred man to be yet future to lead the remnant who remain, which then kind of seems to mess up the timeline. Maybe there's a chiasm or some other structure that I am missing. Anyway, section 103 is a powerful warning to them not to pollute their inheritance once they arrive. We read in section 10 how the early saints polluted their inheritance and failed to redeem Zion.

D&C 101:1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.

4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.

5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

7 They were slow to hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; therefore, the Lord their God is slow to hearken unto their prayers, to answer them in the day of their trouble.

8 In the day of their peace they esteemed lightly my counsel; but, in the day of their trouble, of necessity they feel after me.

9 Verily I say unto you, notwithstanding their sins, my bowels are filled with compassion towards them. I will not utterly cast them off; and in the day of wrath I will remember mercy.

They failed to build Zion, Joseph was taken from them just as Moses was taken from the ancient Israelites and were left to wander in the wilderness just like the ancient Israelites. They finally settled down in the Salt Lake City area as Isaiah prophecied they would and grew from there unredeemed.

[Thinker]

There are two ways to rebel against society - take a steaming, fetid dump all over what everyone else holds sacrosanct, or alternatively, treat as sacrosanct what everyone else pays lip service to. The first is a time-honored rite of adolescence. The second will get you cast out and possibly killed.

This Sunday, as it is my turn to teach a lesson, I will expound on the first few chapters of Isaiah to my Elder's Quorum.

I think it's possible and sometimes ideal to do a little of both. It doesn't have to be either-or (polarized) thinking.
IE: Jesus showed respect for Jewish customs, yet at times, it could be interpreted as him rebelling in heated ways when he whipped people out of the temple for using it to make money. I'd say he rebelled in both ways, and they killed him because any type of rebellion - whether outright or subtle - when it's powerful and potentially leads others to rebel, is seen as a threat by those who prioritize their imperious standings in society.

[Rensai]

Rensai, my understanding has always been that the marred man was Joseph Smith because the BoM was brought by way of the gentile to usher in the fulness of the Gentiles. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Your'e the second person I know to interpret the marred man to be yet future to lead the remnant who remain, which then kind of seems to mess up the timeline. Maybe there's a chiasm or some other structure that I am missing.

Surely there must be many others who think this way. I didn't think it was that uncommon of a view. I know its common to believe its Joseph Smith, but I really don't understand that. To me, it seems clear it cannot be Joseph. Joseph was never marred or disfigured horribly, Joseph was killed, whereas the marred servant will be healed instead, he will be protected from death. The marred servant has to appear and start his work just before the remnant of Jacob tears through the gentiles, to lead the righteous to safety and help build zion. Nothing about the marred servant fits Joseph to me.

You mentioned Gileadi. He believes similarly and writes about it often. I disagree with him on parts of it though, Gileadi seems to think there is only one main end time servant and rolls the marred servant, one mighty and strong, and the davidic servant all into one end time servant. I don't see the evidence for that, to me the marred servant is clearly tied to america and the the gentiles, while the davidic servant is tied to jerusalem. It could be one guy, but I think its probably 2 different guys.

For example on the isaiah explained website it says:
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/resource ... f-humanity

Abstract: Comprising the highest spiritual category to which one may ascend on this earth, seraphs compare with translated beings such as Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, who exercise divine powers. Their mission spans heaven and earth and extends to all nations. God’s end-time servant and his fellowservants fall in that category. Like persons on the son/servant level—from whom they ascend—they serve as kings and queens, restoring God’s people to promised lands before Israel’s God Jehovah comes to reign on the earth. Unlike the mission of God’s sons/servants, however, which is local, theirs is worldwide. Their role as proxy saviors under the terms of the Davidic Covenant involves an intense descent phase through trials and afflictions followed by a glorious ascent.

God’s end-time servant exemplifies one whom Israel’s God exalts on the seraph level. His descent into suffering and humiliation—as he fulfills the role of a proxy savior to God’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant—includes being ecclesiastically ostracized and physically disfigured by enemies: “My servant, being astute, shall be highly exalted; he shall become exceedingly eminent: just as he appalled many—his appearance was marred beyond human likeness, his semblance unlike that of men—so shall he yet astound many nations, kings shutting their mouths at him. What was not told them, they shall see; what they had not heard, they shall consider” Isaiah 52:13–15; compare 50:4–11); “Thus says Jehovah, the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel, to him who is despised as a person, who is abhorred by his people, a servant to those in authority: ‘Kings shall rise up when they see you, princes shall prostrate themselves, because Jehovah keeps faith with you, because the Holy One of Israel has chosen you’” (Isaiah 49:7).

The “kings” mentioned in these passages—unlike the political kings of the nations, whom God condemns (Isaiah 1:23–24; 3:14; 24:21–22; 30:33; 41:2; 45:1)—are persons who hear God’s servant and similarly serve as proxy saviors to God’s people on the seraph level under the terms of the Davidic Covenant. These are kings and their queens who ascend from the son/servant category as they fulfill the greater task of restoring God’s exiled people to lands of inheritance: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah: ‘I will lift up my hand to the nations, raise my ensign to the peoples; and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings shall be your foster fathers, queens your nursing mothers’” (Isaiah 49:22–23).

Nevertheless, those whom Israel’s God chooses to this task may hail from the humblest of origins. In contrast to the blind and dumb watchmen who occupy the highest echelon of society—whom God reprimands and gives over to covenant curses (Isaiah 56:9–12; 66:5–6)—they rise from the lowest echelon to become fellowservants of God’s end-time servant. Isaiah uses the historical example of “foreigners” and “eunuchs” to make his point: “Let not the foreigner who adheres to Jehovah say, ‘Jehovah will surely exclude me from his people.’ And let not the eunuch say, ‘I am but a barren tree.’ For thus says Jehovah: ‘As for the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths and choose to do what I will—holding fast to my covenant—to them I will give a handclasp and a name within the walls of my house that is better than sons and daughters; I will endow them with an everlasting name that shall not be cut off’” (Isaiah 56:3–5).

Anyway, back to section 103.

Anyway, section 103 is a powerful warning to them not to pollute their inheritance once they arrive. We read in section 10 how the early saints polluted their inheritance and failed to redeem Zion.

D&C 101:1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.

4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.

5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

7 They were slow to hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; therefore, the Lord their God is slow to hearken unto their prayers, to answer them in the day of their trouble.

8 In the day of their peace they esteemed lightly my counsel; but, in the day of their trouble, of necessity they feel after me.

9 Verily I say unto you, notwithstanding their sins, my bowels are filled with compassion towards them. I will not utterly cast them off; and in the day of wrath I will remember mercy.

They failed to build Zion, Joseph was taken from them just as Moses was taken from the ancient Israelites and were left to wander in the wilderness just like the ancient Israelites. They finally settled down in the Salt Lake City area as Isaiah prophecied they would and grew from there unredeemed.

No doubt the early saints blew it when it comes to zion. The section I quoted in 103 is talking about a second chance, later though. I don't believe it refers to the original attempt by the early saints. I could be wrong, but let me explain how i see it and see what you think.

First he talks about the early saints failing.

1 Verily I say unto you, my friends, behold, I will give unto you a revelation and commandment, that you may know how to act in the discharge of your duties concerning the salvation and redemption of your brethren, who have been scattered on the land of Zion;

2 Being driven and smitten by the hands of mine enemies, on whom I will pour out my wrath without measure in mine own time.

3 For I have suffered them thus far, that they might fill up the measure of their iniquities, that their cup might be full;

4 And that those who call themselves after my name might be chastened for a little season with a sore and grievous chastisement, because they did not hearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them.

5 But verily I say unto you, that I have decreed a decree which my people shall realize, inasmuch as they hearken from this very hour unto the counsel which I, the Lord their God, shall give unto them.

6 Behold they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour.

7 And by hearkening to observe all the words which I, the Lord their God, shall speak unto them, they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet, and the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever.

8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.

9 For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;

10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

So the kingdoms of the world prevailed against them ,they were trodden down, moved out of their place. Then he says:

11 But verily I say unto you, I have decreed that your brethren which have been scattered shall return to the lands of their inheritances, and shall build up the waste places of Zion.

12 For after much tribulation, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, cometh the blessing.

13 Behold, this is the blessing which I have promised after your tribulations, and the tribulations of your brethren—your redemption, and the redemption of your brethren, even their restoration to the land of Zion, to be established, no more to be thrown down.

After much tribulation comes the blessing and zion shall be restored, no more to be thrown down. That sounds like we're talking about the zion of the millenium now to me. And that has to happen by power. We cannot do it ourselves.

15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.

20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

We need to be led out of babylon, out of bondage, by power and it will be by a man who will lead like Moses did, with the presence of Christ and his angels supporting the exodus. There's not a lot of detail about this that I've found other than these verses though, so maybe I have it wrong, I don't really know. It seems right to me. After that, starting with verse 21, its changing tracks back to Josephs time.

I also think the verses about the marred servant fit with that in 3 Nephi 20.

41 And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

42 For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.

43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

Depart babylon, the lord will go before and be your rearward, just like section 103 talks about and the servant mentioned is the marred servant.

then in 3 Nephi 21 he gives more.

1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

2 And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;

3 Verily, verily, I say unto you, when these things shall be made known unto them of the Father, and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto you;

4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;

5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

I think this is talking about the book of mormon coming forth from the gentiles.

After that, when God deems that the remnant of Jacob has had a chance to begin to know those things, he brings the marred servant.

7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.

8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant

Joseph doesn't fit. This is after his work and besides, he was killed. This guy will be marred but healed.

Then he immediately goes into the cleansing of america.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

Keep in mind, 3 Nephi 20 and 21 are Christ talking to the Nephites and lamanites when he visited america. He is telling them all about their descendants in the last days. He has to be talking about the american continent and the cleansing of america.

All this seems to fit pretty will with what I know of Isaiah and what Gileadi thinks. There are some other verses that are relevant too, but hopefully this at least explains my reasoning a little.

[marc]

Yeah, I don't agree with everything Gileadi says, but I give him a lot of credit for unfolding much of Isaiah's writings. In any case, I never studied much concerning the end time servant or servants so I can easily see that Joseph doesn't fit all of what Jesus declared at Bountiful.

[Rensai]

Yeah, I don't agree with everything Gileadi says, but I give him a lot of credit for unfolding much of Isaiah's writings. In any case, I never studied much concerning the end time servant or servants so I can easily see that Joseph doesn't fit all of what Jesus declared at Bountiful.

Yeah, Gileadi has some great insights into Isaiah, but I think he mixes in a lot of his own ideas that don't always seem to be supported and seem to be guesswork, or at least that's how it seems to me.

Anyway, I hope I didn't derail the thread. When someone brings up Isaiah, the part that is the most exciting to me is the redemption of zion and the marred servant so that's where my brain tends to go I guess. I also think its something that needs to be brought up more. Its shocking to me how few LDS seem to even be aware those verses about the marred servant even exist.

[marc]

On the contrary, Rensai, I appreciate your thoughts on the discussion. They are relevant and helpful. Thank you!

[Rensai]

On the contrary, Rensai, I appreciate your thoughts on the discussion. They are relevant and helpful. Thank you!

Thanks Marc, that's very kind of you. Let me ask you a question or two about something you posted on the first page.

D&C 59: 9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day;

10 For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;

11 Nevertheless thy vows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times;

12 But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.

13 And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full.

These verses have caught my attention several times over the years and verse 13 is very curious. Let your food be prepared with singleness of heart that your fasting may be perfect. How can we have food and fast at the same time? I've looked at this a bit and done some searches before and other scriptures seem to clearly indicate fasting is going without food, as we've all been taught. What do you think he's saying there?

Another question I have is about the sabbath activities allowed here. It sounds like its saying we can rest from our labors, worship god with our sacraments and oblations, and confess our sins, and none other thing. The church certainly seems to encourage and allow many other things like visiting the elderly, etc. If we follow these scriptures only then our sacraments and oblations take a few hours. We can pray and confess our sins for a bit and prepare our food, but what then? I've actually tried this a few times and its very hard to do an entire day like that, at least for me. Do you stick to these activities only on the sabbath or how do you do it? If so, can you share some of the ways your Sabbath observance has helped you?

[marc]

Rensai, when one fasts, sooner or later one must eat. It is natural to want to rush home and gobble down that pizza that's been waiting in the fridge and be glad fasting is over. The Lord intends for us to have our hearts single to Him always, including and especially when we conclude our fast. If we have fasted properly and worship the Lord in spirit, we know that the body is secondary. By fasting, we subordinate our flesh to the spirit. As such, when it comes time to nourish the body, we ought to do so continuing to have our hearts single. But if we forget that we have been communing with the Lord, worshiping in spirit, we revert to the appetites of the flesh and are no longer spiritual. We lose that connection with the Lord. So whether you've been fasting for hours or for days, when you break your fast on the Lord's day, let it be as the Lord prescribes that our joy may continue to be full and not because of the body.

I am still endeavoring to do "none other thing" because I genuinely want to discover and enjoy the fullness of what the Lord intends. Half the time, I still haven't come home because of a meeting or with visiting people. As the Lord said, the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. I won't tell you what to do or not to do. That is between you and the Lord. Personally speaking, I genuinely try to observe this day as the Lord intended--in communion with Him. This usually involves prayer, praise/hymns, scripture study, pondering/praying and waiting for answers. I've spent hours on end, even days on end in prayer and supplication in silence waiting for an answer or just pouring out my heart to the Lord, even in thanks.

[marc]

Decades ago, a professor named William Brownlee discovered in the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah a seven part division of Isaiah's book in two parallel blocks of chapters. At that time scholars barely determined that biblical books even had literary structures. So Brownlee's discovery was mostly passed over. Another professor, a colleague of Brownlee by the name of Roland Harrison, Gileadi's mentor, suggested that Gileadi explore this structure for his doctoral thesis. And so a chiasm of history was examined that became what Gileadi describes as Seven Spiritual Categories or Isaiah's Ladder.

The seven part division is patterned so:

Isaiah 1-33
1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a-7a

Isaiah 34-66
1b-2b-3b-4b-5b-6b-7b

In the book of Genesis 28:12-17, we read about Jacob's ladder that reached from earth to heaven, which he called the "gate of heaven." Jehovah was visible at the top.

12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

16 ¶And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.

17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

Isaiah built a theology around this idea as a way to define our relationship to God, or rather His role toward us and our role toward Him. In this literary pattern, Isaiah describes his own ladder, which symbolizes the different ways of living that people choose, which either move them up the ladder to God or down the ladder toward destruction.

So using the code above (1a corresponding with 1b, etc) we have the following structure in categories corresponding with chapters:

-Ruin and Rebirth (1-5, 34-35)
--Rebellion and Compliance (6-8, 36-40)
---Punishment and Deliverance (9-12, 41-46)
----Humiliation and Exaltation (13-23, 47)
---Suffering and Salvation (24-27,48-54)
--Disloyalty and Loyalty (28-31, 55-59)
-Disinheritance and Inheritance (32-33, 60-66)

There are distinctions within each level or set of choices we make that brings covenant blessings or covenant cursings. A ladder appears when we recognize these categories of people as an ascending order, from the lowest (or farthest from being like God) to the highest (most like Him). John made it clear in one of his epistles when we obtain the highest rung:

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We find ourselves at any given time on one rung or another depending on the choices we make, or in other words, what spiritual laws we live or choose not to live. We are either ascending or descending. And if we are idle, well that isn't good either. You gotta climb. We qualify for God's presence (D&C 76: 51-58) when we enter heaven. Some people attain this state in this life. Others fail even after death.

This seven part structure presents models on each level, or on each rung. We participate in the role of each model as we ascend or descend. Isaiah's "ladder" to heaven looks like this:

Jehovah-God of Israel
Seraphim-Angelic Emissaries
Sons/Daughters-Servants of God
Zion/Jerusalem-God's Covenant People
Jacob/Israel-Believers in a Creator-God
Babylon-The Wicked of the World
King of Assyria/Babylon-Perdition

At the bottom is depicted the archtyrant who conquers and destroys. People on the lowest rungs resemble the archtyrant as they follow his example of despotism. The more we resemble him, the lower we descend. Conversely, the more we become like Jesus Christ, the higher we ascend. By looking at Israels' history and its people we can compare ourselves to them and see where we are on the ladder. Isaiah provides that yardstick for us. We don't need to wait until we die to ascend or descend. Knowing exactly where we stand NOW puts to rest any false "notions of grandeur" that we have about ourselves. I believe most of us are in the Jacob/Israel, some with one foot on the Babylon rung and others with one foot in the Zion/Jerusalem rung. Some of us are on the Zion/Jerusalem rung.

I believe that Isaiah easily fit the Son category, perhaps Seraphim as we read his heavenly experience in chapter six. The Seraph with six wings is an indicator of six levels or rungs it had attained, Jehova having attained them all and sitting on a throne. Isaiah was certainly a messenger sent by God to warn people and that is what angels are and do. Isaiah's journey on this "Jacob's ladder" had just begun.

[Rose Garden]

This discussion has probably run its course, so I just want to add one more personal commentary, fast forwarding to chapter three. The first half of this chapter talks about the condition of the Lord's covenant people--what the Lord will deprive them of when Assyria comes to sweep them off, or in other words, what will be left, which is little to nothing. Most, if not all men will be wiped out, leaving some children/youth to "rule" whatever is left of the people. So now that we have a good idea of what will befall the "rulers of Sodom" and the "people of Gormorrah" or essentially, all the men who defile the temple with their vain offerings, the Lord tells us what He thinks of the women and what He will cause to happen to them:

16 ¶ Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Here the Lord considers the women "daughters of Zion." I find this interesting. Zion denotes an elect people. Whereas the men are fully corrupted and fit into a "Sodom and Gomorrah" category, the women are called "Zion." The main archetypes in the book of Isaiah include "Babylon," "Assyria," "Israel," and "Zion." So it's interesting to see the Lord address the Israelite men as "rulers of Sodom" and "people of Gomorrah" and the women as "daughters of Zion." But the women do not escape His judgment.

Isaiah goes to an extreme length to list all the varieties of dress and accessories that the women tend to wear. It isn't too difficult to see the same with today's women. I can't remember if it was a family member or a neighbor that once explained to me why women have to have so many shoes and clothes and stuff. She said that when they're little girls they dress up all their Barbies. But when they grow up, they become Barbie. Women seem programmed from an early age to "doll up" and accessorize. I'm not sure why. Maybe some of you ladies reading this can chime in with some input. But you seem to have to have an outfit for everything and your clothes have to be interchangeable, and match by colors or patterns or whatever.

As for men, we tend to compete to become Alpha males in our various circles and be in charge. Even the Lord's disciples kept bickering among themselves who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven among them. It's just a guy thing. We compete. I think that women are the same, but for a different reason. Women seem to tend to size each other up by how many more men they can attract than the next woman. They measure their worth by being able to attract the Alpha males or at least the most handsome ones and this can make them catty. I'm sure not all women are like this just like not all men have to be Alpha males. It's either that or women are just vain. So there you go ladies, please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know.

In any case, whereas the Lord will deliver the men up to be swept off by the sword, the women's covenant curse will be baldness and rags. The ancient Israelites had no clue they were about to be destroyed and left desolate. If we apply it to today, this could be interpreted to mean a nuclear holocaust or some kind of plague or both is about to befall us. And like the ancient people, a remnant will be left. We in the US are pretty ripe to be swept off. And there are enough passages in D&C that indicate the Lord's desolating scourge will begin first with the Lord's house among those who profess to know the Lord's name, but have not known Him.

D&C 112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I believe in this context, the Lord is referring to "house" as His covenant people (house of Israel) and not some temple or building. And really, the only candidate I can think of are the LDS, being the gentiles by whom the restoration of the fullness of the gospel was made.

I think I have a unique perspective on the nature of females since I've never been very into dressing up or wearing jewelry or anything fancy myself and I have six girls. My little girls all had different levels of excitement when it came to dressing up but there was always some excitement. Since I never demonstrated a tendency towards that, I believe that the attraction females feel toward dressing up is part of their nature. It behind at a very young age.

I've also noticed something else recently that might add to this topic. Recently I've been focusing on forgiving others and repenting a lot. I feel a great deal more peace in my life. As my emotional state becomes healthier, I've been drawn to do things to improve my appearance. I still have no desire to dress up super fancy but I'm more mindful of my complexion and weight and try harder to dress up nice than I was before--in a healthier way.

I'm inclined to believe, due to my experiences, that women naturally like to look good and that is not an evil thing. I don't think it takes programming for us to be that way.

I would say where the problem comes in is when it becomes a competition. The little girl will delight in dressing up and maybe want the dress her sister is wearing but she won't worry about whether she is prettier than her sister. If she feels she is pretty then she is content and inclined to encourage her sister to dress up too. But the adult woman in our fallen world will sit and stew when other women look nicer or have bigger homes or whatever. She could look absolutely beautiful but still feel uncomfortable if her friend looks absolutely beautiful as well. She is likely to worry about whether she will receive less attention because of her friend.

I believe that these jealousies stem from the common fears we share in this fallen world and that is that we won't be given everything we need. As little girls, dressing up is simply fun, something that brings fun and joy into life. But as adult women, fallen women, we fear that if we aren't pretty enough, we won't be able to attract a man to take care of us. Our fear can manifest in different ways, from dissatisfaction, demanding more, etc. to defensiveness and defiance about social norms. In all forms, it serves to cause us to separate ourselves from others, igniting emnity and discord.

As I learn more of our loving God, I am less inclined to condemn others for their follies. Those women who struggle with jealousy are products of our fallen world. I don't believe the Lord condemns them for their weaknesses. I believe he understands perfectly. I believe when he allows them to suffer the consequences of their pride, it's because he knows they desire to overcome their weaknesses and he knows that they need to suffer the consequences in order to learn the lessons they need to.

Why the men are rulers in Sodom and the women daughters in Zion, I don't have a clue. But I can say why I feel the term daughters of Zion is used in those verses. To me, it indicates that the Lord sees them as they will be, not as they are. While he recognizes that they are fallen and lost, he is looking ahead at their repentant state which he has confidence in them attaining. So he is talking about the women of Zion before they are actually the women of Zion.

But I would take this one step further and say that it also applies to the men as well. Just as the whole church can be "the bride of Christ," I believe that if you look at those verses symbolically, not just literally, then they can be applied to men as well. The different items that the women are said to be dressing up in are different follies or weaknesses that are common to humankind. They may manifest differently in men but they still are the same at the roots. I don't have time to develop that idea right now, though.

I believe the verse about it "starting on my own house" is very much tied in to all this except I don't see it as applying only to the LDS church. All denominations have people who speak as though they know the Lord when they do not. This is actually another aspect of our fallen world and one incredibly difficult to overcome. Most people who have a belief in God will speak as though they know things about God that they don't actually know. So when it says, "those who have professed to know my name," that applies to a great number of people and denominations.

I believe that to a certain extent, that verse has already begun to be fulfilled. This is the way I see it: there are those (men and women) in the world right now who are potential candidates to be daughters of Zion. However, they are in a fallen state. They believe they know the Lord but do not know him and this causes them to sin in worse ways than they would if they didn't profess to believe in the Lord at all. But the Lord knows his sheep and he is calling them. They are feeling the scourge that comes when the guilty hear the voice of the master and their conscience sears them. They have the opportunity to make the choice to repent and turn to the master and be reconciled with him or shrink away from him into dark paths. The Lord is patient and they are allowed to waffle back and forth for a time but ultimately they must decide and their decision will determine whether they truly become Zion or not. I believe this is taking place now on an individual level and will later have a more broad application but I would still not feel comfortable pinning it down on the LDS.

[marc]

Meili, thank you for your thoughtful response.

[leisure_59]

marc:

I have watched with interest your growth (and love) of the teachings of Isaiah. I also have Gileadi's books and have experienced through him and prayer a love of Isaiah. Your retelling of Jacob's ladder is somewhat like something I have thought about over the last few years, and I think of it as a six story building representing the earth or the telestial world we now live in. I have created a sort of parable and have named it THE ESCALATOR.

We enter mortality and "play" on the ground floor which is the third floor.

There is a basement, but as children we do not find the escalator that only goes down. The basement is Babylon...There is a sub-basement known as perdition.

Some parents of children know that they should get their children off the ground floor, and to do this they must lead them over to the escalator that is always headed down--so the parents must teach them to climb UP the "downward escalator", so they can get to the next floor where there is more knowledge and protection from temptations.

Unfortunately, parents stuck in Babylon (the basement) allow their children to roam there. These individuals can escape up the escalator if someone
(missionaries) point the way. Missionaries are also on the ground floor to lead individuals to the 4th floor (1st floor = perdition, 2nd floor = Babylon, 3rd or ground floor = entry and everyday living, 4th floor = covenant people, 5th floor = covenant people hearing a VOICE and being obedient to that VOICE, and 6th floor = those who ascend to meet the VOICE face-to-face).

Although there are many covenant people on the 4th floor who find joy staying there and making friends, some feel that there is more to experience on the next floor up; and that the sacrifices of ascending "up" a downward escalator and perhaps losing friends and even some family, is worth the challenge and begin climbing.

This climb to the 5th floor must be accomplished through (not only great desire), but a total submission to a VOICE that leads one ever upward. The climb is steep and narrow. One completes the climb only because of total obedience to the VOICE which has become a "beacon of light" to that individual.

At both the 4th and 5th floors there are certain tasks to perform and because of these tasks and sacrifices, many either pause or get back on the downward escalator to lower, more comfortable levels (floors).

If one is totally obedient to the VOICE on the 5th floor and desires with all their heart to meet the VOICE; then they attempt to climb the escalator to the 6th floor where they will meet the one who was leading them up the escalator. They will meet the PERSON face-to-face and find exceeding joy! At each level (4th through the 6th) more light is gained allowing entry to the various levels.

The joy that is experienced at the 6th floor is everlasting and can only be lost if one rejects and denies all that he/she has experienced there, and then get on a one-way elevator going down to the sub-basement.

[marc]

Thank you for sharing your parable, leisure_59! When I read your telling of the final floors, it reminded me of the law of sacrifice explained in Lecture Six and the effects of faith in Lecture Seven of The Lectures on Faith.