Does God exist?

[Rhetoric.Power]

I considered myself a Christian and Mormon for most of my life. However, I now consider myself an Agnostic Atheist. The reason being this: There is no evidence to support the existence of a god, let alone the "Christian God". Agree or disagree? Let me hear your thoughts and supporting evidence.

[Silver]

Is it possible to be both agnostic and atheist?

[Rhetoric.Power]

Yes it is possible. A quick search will reveal the definition to you.

[Silver]

Hmmm...

agnosticatheist.png (13.95 KiB) Viewed 2134 times

[Finrock]

I considered myself a Christian and Mormon for most of my life. However, I now consider myself an Agnostic Atheist. The reason being this: There is no evidence to support the existence of a god, let alone the "Christian God". Agree or disagree? Let me hear your thoughts and supporting evidence.

Faith in God is a choice. Evidence on a personal basis manifests itself as one begins to exercise faith. Otherwise, all you have is testimony, which you will either believe or disbelieve. The evidence I have for a God can't be shared with you and thus it can't be verified by another. In other words, the evidence that exist requires you to believe it is evidence. If you reject it as evidence, then it is exactly nothing to you. In my own life I've received thoughts and ideas in to my mind independently of anyone, but which I later found corresponded with the testimony of others. Meaning, others have had similar or the same types of experiences. As I've acted on those ideas, thoughts, or feelings I've experienced certain "good" results which results were promised if I acted on the ideas, thoughts, or feelings. Other times I've ignored the ideas, thoughts, and feelings that have entered my mind, which resulted in a not good experience, which was also indicated that such a result would occur if I did not act on these "promptings". The more I act on certain promptings and the promised results occur, the more confidence I have in those promptings being good or being real. This constitutes evidence to me that God is real.

Also, I've spoken with God and He has spoken with me. These interactions had the consequence of changing me completely, almost in an instant. Whereas at one point I was struggling and was in "hell", the next moment I was cured and released and no longer bound by the same thoughts, ideas, addictions, or struggles. Or, said another way, I was unable to overcome certain things in my life even though I tried for years and used modern medicine and modern science, and my own will power to overcome them. Then, after my interactions with God, I was able to overcome these same things near instantly.

Finally, the experiences I've had with God are undeniable to me. I am a sane, reasonable, intelligent person and I cannot deny the experiences I have had which surpass anything that I've experienced with my sensory organs. I call this a witness by the Spirit, which is real, and which can be confirmed by witness by millions of others.

There are some things I chose to believe and then there are a few experiences which I cannot deny without lying to myself. I would have to lie and say God is not real even though I know that He is.

-Finrock

[Rhetoric.Power]

One of the issues I have with the sort of evidence that you are providing is that there are people of every religion that feel this way. Even those that worship a completely different God than you do. So are there multiple gods? or does he not care if you worship a different god and he will answer and communicate regardless? There are so many different gods out there and all the followers are just as confident as you. It seems a little contradictory especially when you take into account the church's doctrine.

One of the things that set me on the path of no longer believing in a Deity is suffering. A few years ago I was rudely awakened to just how much suffering exists in the world. So many people say it is caused by free will but a lot of it has nothing to do with the actions of people, just the "power of God". God is supposed to have a special place in his heart for children yet look at all the suffering in the world experienced by even just the children. It is absolutely horrendous and sickening.

[Finrock]

One of the issues I have with the sort of evidence that you are providing is that there are people of every religion that feel this way. Even those that worship a completely different God than you do. So are there multiple gods? or does he not care if you worship a different god and he will answer and communicate regardless? There are so many different gods out there and all the followers are just as confident as you. It seems a little contradictory especially when you take into account the church's doctrine.

You wouldn't be the first one to have this issue. There are many gods, for sure. There is Love, which is the true God and He manifest Himself in many ways, to many people, over the eons of time. God is the God of the whole world and He is no respecter of persons. People don't have to have the same understanding of God as I do. Its the principles of Good and/or Love that matter, in the end.

Being confident about something doesn't necessarily mean you are right. You seem pretty confident in your faith. It's okay for there to be a diversity of beliefs. All of us are on our own journeys. We have the experiences that are sufficient for our purposes here on Earth.

One of the things that set me on the path of no longer believing in a Deity is suffering. A few years ago I was rudely awakened to just how much suffering exists in the world. So many people say it is caused by free will but a lot of it has nothing to do with the actions of people, just the "power of God". God is supposed to have a special place in his heart for children yet look at all the suffering in the world experienced by even just the children. It is absolutely horrendous and sickening.

This also quite a very common concern with many people. The problem of evil is nothing new and for those who are trying to contend against the existence of God, there is no answer that is sufficient, frankly, because they don't want there to be an answer. However, if you pursue a path of faith, these things become more clear. As you get to know God better, you can make sense of things that seem senseless.

-Finrock

[Silver]

A non-believer at the time Noah finished the ark might have also felt sorrow for all the suffering that existed then. That sorrowing would have continued until the individual drowned in the flood. Unfortunately, the dying person would not have known that God was actually acting in mercy to prevent more suffering on the part of innocent spirits due to arrive on earth from the pre-mortal life. Fortunately, once the spirit of the dead person reached the spirit world, the education process could begin.

[Rhetoric.Power]

Not believing in a Deity requires no faith, that is counter-intuitive.

I would accept a real answer for the suffering in the world. I have read all of the major positions of philosophers throughout history on the subject and some are better explanations than others. The decent explanations however have to take away aspects of god that are common beliefs especially for Christians. One example would be that God cannot be All-powerful and All-good at the same time. If he is both then he would stop suffering but if he has the power but doesn't then he isn't all good. Also, if he wants to do something but can't he isn't all-powerful.

I have spent most of my life very dedicated to God. Graduated Seminary with perfect attendance, never missing church or youth meetings on Wednesdays, I went to BYU, I served a mission in El Salvador, praying several times a day, never missing scripture study, etc. I never got any confirmation however that wasn't the equivalent of all other religions or even just sects of Christianity. I don't feel this way from a lack of trying, I have tried more than most people out in the world to find God. Also from a personal experience I made a personal covenant with God if he would help me and my wife conceive and protect the baby. We got pregnant and from an unknown cause we had a miscarriage. It was absolutely devastating. It then took us about a year to conceive another time and there were health complications after birth. He was in the NICU for weeks and needed oxygen, feeding tube and surgeries. He is missing a large portion of his DNA (25 genes to be exact) and he is one of a kind (not a single person has, past or present, his missing genes). He requires multiple forms of therapy weekly and he is only a little older than 2. What kind of a god would do something like that to a child? I would happily suffer so my son wouldn't have to and if there is a god then he knows that. Yet my son will suffer his entire life. This is just one instance of millions out there, and probably billions over the course of history. I can't see an explanation of suffering that would justify that immense amount of pain.

Now for the Noah's ark comment. Are you trying to say that the suffering is for the good of humankind? So God does it on purpose? Now if the Noah's ark story is even literal and not an allegory: God was punishing the wicked, supposedly Noah and his family were the last remaining decent people. So suffering comes from being wicked, as a punishment. Now what about all of the suffering in the world that has nothing to do with wickedness? All of the abused children (sexual, physical, verbal) in the world? or the children going to bed hungry and starving to death?

[DesertWonderer]

No, no evidence. Feel better now?

[Rhetoric.Power]

No, no evidence. Feel better now?

No, no I do not feel better.

[eddie]

No, no evidence. Feel better now?

No, no I do not feel better.

Well darn.

Listen carefully to these words of the Lord: “I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.” Then follows the promise he makes to those who serve him in righteousness and in truth to the end:

“Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

“And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

“Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

“And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught.

“For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.” (D&C 76:5–10.)

[Different]

I considered myself a Christian and Mormon for most of my life. However, I now consider myself an Agnostic Atheist. The reason being this: There is no evidence to support the existence of a god, let alone the "Christian God". Agree or disagree? Let me hear your thoughts and supporting evidence.

Does God Exist?....

Look in the mirror, you were made in the image of a all powerful and loving father in heaven.

And as to philosophys of men heres a good verse.

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[Sarah]

Not believing in a Deity requires no faith, that is counter-intuitive.

I would accept a real answer for the suffering in the world. I have read all of the major positions of philosophers throughout history on the subject and some are better explanations than others. The decent explanations however have to take away aspects of god that are common beliefs especially for Christians. One example would be that God cannot be All-powerful and All-good at the same time. If he is both then he would stop suffering but if he has the power but doesn't then he isn't all good. Also, if he wants to do something but can't he isn't all-powerful.

I have spent most of my life very dedicated to God. Graduated Seminary with perfect attendance, never missing church or youth meetings on Wednesdays, I went to BYU, I served a mission in El Salvador, praying several times a day, never missing scripture study, etc. I never got any confirmation however that wasn't the equivalent of all other religions or even just sects of Christianity. I don't feel this way from a lack of trying, I have tried more than most people out in the world to find God. Also from a personal experience I made a personal covenant with God if he would help me and my wife conceive and protect the baby. We got pregnant and from an unknown cause we had a miscarriage. It was absolutely devastating. It then took us about a year to conceive another time and there were health complications after birth. He was in the NICU for weeks and needed oxygen, feeding tube and surgeries. He is missing a large portion of his DNA (25 genes to be exact) and he is one of a kind (not a single person has, past or present, his missing genes). He requires multiple forms of therapy weekly and he is only a little older than 2. What kind of a god would do something like that to a child? I would happily suffer so my son wouldn't have to and if there is a god then he knows that. Yet my son will suffer his entire life. This is just one instance of millions out there, and probably billions over the course of history. I can't see an explanation of suffering that would justify that immense amount of pain.

Now for the Noah's ark comment. Are you trying to say that the suffering is for the good of humankind? So God does it on purpose? Now if the Noah's ark story is even literal and not an allegory: God was punishing the wicked, supposedly Noah and his family were the last remaining decent people. So suffering comes from being wicked, as a punishment. Now what about all of the suffering in the world that has nothing to do with wickedness? All of the abused children (sexual, physical, verbal) in the world? or the children going to bed hungry and starving to death?

God is a parent, and like you he loves his children, but he wants them to learn how to love and be unselfish. He wants them to learn to respect others and appreciate the gifts they are given. He wants them to behave with unselfish motivations, rather than act in ways that serve themselves. He wants them to learn how to trust Him and trust others. All this cannot be accomplished if we do not experience opposites. How can we experience and appreciate true love and joy and wonder, when we have not descended below and experienced the bitter - hatred, selfishness, pain, loss, sorrow, disappointment, fear. So the only way you can really appreciate the good is to experience the bitter.

I have 5 kids, and parents learn this as they go along, that kids can act spoiled and entitled to things if they always have everything they want. And that's the problem - it's what THEY want. It's not what someone else wants, and they don't have enough experience in life to understand what is REALLY good for their minds and bodies, so they don't even know what they should want for themselves. That is where the parent comes in, in setting rules or boundaries for their behavior. They must learn that some behaviors are not loving or respectful to themselves or to others. They must learn to appreciate what they have been given by GIVING BACK. They must learn to give and receive correctly, request and withhold for the right reasons. These are things God wants us to learn and we learn them by experiencing the opposites of giving and receiving motivated by unselfishness. We experience manipulation, where others try to get us to do what they want us to do rather than allowing us freedom to choose. We experience selfish expectations, demands, or people taking things from us. We experience being taken advantage of. We experience rejection and others punishing us. These are all the opposites from giving and receiving out of love and with freedom in place to give freely and not be manipulated into giving.

I know this is a bunch of jumbled thoughts, but what I'm trying to convey is that there is a very good reason even children are allowed to suffer in this life. It is because without freedom and agency, there can be no true love. You cannot force someone to love you. I actually feel that agency is a higher principle than love because you cannot have love without agency and freedom. So our parent (God) stays out of the fighting for awhile so we have the experience of resolving these issues ourselves and learning from them. I found that if I came in and broke up every fight my children had, they never learned to resolve problems with each other, forgive and move on. If I let them alone they had to CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES how they behaved after the fighting, and that brought personal growth and greater strength to their relationships with each other. It ended up bringing about more love in the end because they decided for themselves to love. If God stopped the suffering, then we could not learn to choose for ourselves to stop the suffering of others and love them. We would be forced to love which really isn't love at all.

As for your question about the existence of God, I've experienced Him in countless ways that can be explained in no other way. I've also experienced evil spirits more times than I can count. I've seen my deceased mother, and had a lot of neat experiences doing family history work. I have a sure knowledge that God lives, Jesus is His son and the one who will heal all the awful wounds mankind inflicts upon each other, but that will come after we all have this probationary state. I know others of different religions experience spiritual manifestations, and all I can say is that God loves all his children and he isn't giving them experiences to confirm in their minds that everything they believe is true, but to help them along their journey. There are also false spirits that give experiences that are leading others from the truth. I know all this to be true.

[Silver]

Not believing in a Deity requires no faith, that is counter-intuitive.

I would accept a real answer for the suffering in the world. I have read all of the major positions of philosophers throughout history on the subject and some are better explanations than others. The decent explanations however have to take away aspects of god that are common beliefs especially for Christians. One example would be that God cannot be All-powerful and All-good at the same time. If he is both then he would stop suffering but if he has the power but doesn't then he isn't all good. Also, if he wants to do something but can't he isn't all-powerful.

I have spent most of my life very dedicated to God. Graduated Seminary with perfect attendance, never missing church or youth meetings on Wednesdays, I went to BYU, I served a mission in El Salvador, praying several times a day, never missing scripture study, etc. I never got any confirmation however that wasn't the equivalent of all other religions or even just sects of Christianity. I don't feel this way from a lack of trying, I have tried more than most people out in the world to find God. Also from a personal experience I made a personal covenant with God if he would help me and my wife conceive and protect the baby. We got pregnant and from an unknown cause we had a miscarriage. It was absolutely devastating. It then took us about a year to conceive another time and there were health complications after birth. He was in the NICU for weeks and needed oxygen, feeding tube and surgeries. He is missing a large portion of his DNA (25 genes to be exact) and he is one of a kind (not a single person has, past or present, his missing genes). He requires multiple forms of therapy weekly and he is only a little older than 2. What kind of a god would do something like that to a child? I would happily suffer so my son wouldn't have to and if there is a god then he knows that. Yet my son will suffer his entire life. This is just one instance of millions out there, and probably billions over the course of history. I can't see an explanation of suffering that would justify that immense amount of pain.

Now for the Noah's ark comment. Are you trying to say that the suffering is for the good of humankind? So God does it on purpose? Now if the Noah's ark story is even literal and not an allegory: God was punishing the wicked, supposedly Noah and his family were the last remaining decent people. So suffering comes from being wicked, as a punishment. Now what about all of the suffering in the world that has nothing to do with wickedness? All of the abused children (sexual, physical, verbal) in the world? or the children going to bed hungry and starving to death?

I am sorry to read about the health issues of your son. There are probably no words of comfort anybody here can give you that you haven't already heard.

Is/was your wife a member of the church? If she is still active, how does she feel about your decision to leave the church?

[BeNotDeceived]

No, no evidence. Feel better now?

No, no I do not feel better.

Proof is the antithesis of Faith. :ymhug:

[drtanner]

"The awful tragedy of this life, as of the next, is not suffering. It is "suffering in vain." Or worse, it is suffering that could have been the elixir of nobility, transforming us into a godliness beyond description which, instead, has become the poison of bitterness and alienation." Truman G Madsen

[Finrock]

Not believing in a Deity requires no faith, that is counter-intuitive.

I would accept a real answer for the suffering in the world. I have read all of the major positions of philosophers throughout history on the subject and some are better explanations than others. The decent explanations however have to take away aspects of god that are common beliefs especially for Christians. One example would be that God cannot be All-powerful and All-good at the same time. If he is both then he would stop suffering but if he has the power but doesn't then he isn't all good. Also, if he wants to do something but can't he isn't all-powerful.

I have spent most of my life very dedicated to God. Graduated Seminary with perfect attendance, never missing church or youth meetings on Wednesdays, I went to BYU, I served a mission in El Salvador, praying several times a day, never missing scripture study, etc. I never got any confirmation however that wasn't the equivalent of all other religions or even just sects of Christianity. I don't feel this way from a lack of trying, I have tried more than most people out in the world to find God. Also from a personal experience I made a personal covenant with God if he would help me and my wife conceive and protect the baby. We got pregnant and from an unknown cause we had a miscarriage. It was absolutely devastating. It then took us about a year to conceive another time and there were health complications after birth. He was in the NICU for weeks and needed oxygen, feeding tube and surgeries. He is missing a large portion of his DNA (25 genes to be exact) and he is one of a kind (not a single person has, past or present, his missing genes). He requires multiple forms of therapy weekly and he is only a little older than 2. What kind of a god would do something like that to a child? I would happily suffer so my son wouldn't have to and if there is a god then he knows that. Yet my son will suffer his entire life. This is just one instance of millions out there, and probably billions over the course of history. I can't see an explanation of suffering that would justify that immense amount of pain.

Now for the Noah's ark comment. Are you trying to say that the suffering is for the good of humankind? So God does it on purpose? Now if the Noah's ark story is even literal and not an allegory: God was punishing the wicked, supposedly Noah and his family were the last remaining decent people. So suffering comes from being wicked, as a punishment. Now what about all of the suffering in the world that has nothing to do with wickedness? All of the abused children (sexual, physical, verbal) in the world? or the children going to bed hungry and starving to death?

I wrote the following several months ago:

We often think that we must do all of these works and tasks in order to fulfill the measure of our life. I hear often at church and elsewhere that we should be "striving" and just filling our days with all sorts of things to do. I lived this way for many years and to tell you the truth, I felt oppressed and burdened by a heavy weight. I wondered what Jesus said when He said:



Matt. 11 wrote:
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.Why did living the gospel feel like such a burden if Jesus promised that if we take His yoke upon us, we should find rest unto our souls and that His yoke is easy and His burden is light?

Then, one day I was reading and pondering Ether 6 1-12 and when I read verse 4, I realized something that was very important for my progression and journey. Verse 4 reads:



Ether 6 wrote:
And it came to pass that when they had prepared all manner of food, that thereby they might subsist upon the water, and also food for their flocks and herds, and whatsoever beast or animal or fowl that they should carry with them—and it came to pass that when they had done all these things they got aboard of their vessels or barges, and set forth into the sea, commending themselves unto the Lord their God.
Recognizing that this scripture is not just talking about crossing the ocean with ships, but it is talking about my journey here on earth, it struck me that I was trying to do all these things by my own power, but what I really needed to do was to commend myself unto the Lord my God.

What does "commend" mean? From Merriam-Webster it reads: to entrust for care or preservation.

Although I do not remember it right now, when I entered mortality I did so with the understanding that I am "commending [myself] unto the Lord [my] God". It was never intended that I enter mortality any other way. I am suppose to, God wants me to, and in fact that was our agreement and arrangement with God from the very beginning that if I enter mortality (the sea), that I do not need to fear or to worry, because I did so with the understanding that I would be under the care and guidance of Heavenly Father.

God is "blowing" me towards the promise land. God is ultimately responsible for the trials and tribulations in my life (He caused that a furious wind would blow upon the waters) so of course a good, just, and merciful God will provide the means for me to not only survive my ordeals but to actually grow from them and to have joy in them. My whole life is my journey towards the promise land. Mortality is the great ordinance that I must perform. So, to the extent that I commend myself to my own powers and/or to the powers of others and the influence of others, I am commending myself to damnation. To the extent that I commend my soul to Heaven Father, to that same degree I will be lead and brought towards the promised land, or life eternal.

-Finrock

I acknowledge and believe that God is ultimately responsible for the trials and tribulations in my life, but I also believe He has not done anything arbitrarily or without purpose and without a means to overcome or recompense for those things that I have experienced. Although each life is intertwined, each life is also on an individual journey to obtain those things that will best prepare them for the eternities. In my life there have been trials of my own making; results of my own rebelliousness. Also, much of my trials have come about because of my weaknesses but these are weaknesses which I believe God did place in me and He intended me to have these weaknesses in order to make me strong. Then there are those trials that were the result of other people's wickedness.

Let me give you some context as to why I believe the way I do and what I mean. I was born in to a home where I was sexually abused by my grandmother, mother, stepfather, and others over several years. Raped and molested many times. Now, when God sent me to earth, did He know where He was placing me? I believe He did. I believe He knew He was placing me in a "poor spot of ground", if I may use that imagery from Jacob, but all that time He has been there. I did not recognize this fact for most of my life, but, now that I can see I see that it is true.

God is All in All. Therefore, He has a plan to make up for all things and to use all things and to recompense for all things. God controls the "matrix" and I believe He can do this, that, or the other, but if He intervened to prevent all suffering from occurring in the course of my life then His purposes could not be fulfilled and neither would I have the strength of character that I have today as I would not have received those experiences that would prepare me for something greater. The trials, I have learned, if I put my trust in Him, propel me forward and upward towards the promised land. The trials become stumbling blocks if I fight against Him or trust in my own strength or the strength of others. My trials have turned in to a blessing. I have found that because of my trials I have a perspective of life and the world that many do not, which is good. I have found that because of my trials I have a greater capacity for empathy and I can be an instrument in God's hands to help others, to be a comfort, and a help. Suffering exist and those who mourn, the meek, and the lowly of heart, will inherit the Earth and will be blessed, uplifted, and made strong.

Yes, there is suffering. Yes, God is responsible for many things. Yes, God knows that we will have experiences that will break our heart. However, He has provided a means, through the atonement of Jesus Christ, to turn these horrible experiences in to something good, grand, and wonderful. He also provides great comfort to those who have great suffering. He will recompense for all tears, all sorrows, and all pain unjustly felt and experienced not just in a future world, but today, if we place our trust in Him and are able to see our life through the lens of eternity. Meaning, we have to lift our sights beyond just the now and see ourselves as more than just this mortal experience. We can then find great joy in helping others today, helping them see past their pain, and helping others feel loved and cared for. The greater genuine and sincere empathy we have, the more joy and peace we will have in life.

-Finrock

[Serragon]

Yes it is possible. A quick search will reveal the definition to you.

I disagree. You either know God exists or you don't. Trying to add athiest/theist to that is no different than flipping a coin. If you don't know then you don't know.

Both the theist and athiest positions require faith. The agnostic position is faithless. This is why the Lord says He will spit out the lukewarm.

There are infinite evidences of Gods existence for those with eyes to see. They were evidence to you prior to your turning away. There is also infinite evidence for those looking to prove God does not exist, as they are also looking with different eyes. These things are evidence to you now whereas they were not before.

Be certain you are being fair in what you require as proof. If you state there is no evidence for the existence of God and are referring to hard scientific evidence, but at the same time use the existence of evil or bad things happening to people as evidence for Gods non-existence then you are being hypocritcal as the latter is a spiritual proof.

[freedomforall]

Too many people come up with this no God stuff and expect others to prove otherwise like some kind of mind game. Let's turn this around for a change, huh?

Since, in your mind, God does not exist, prove to us how and why you came to be and that you really exist! Where do you expect to go after death?

And since you do not believe in God, then we must assume you do not believe in Jesus Christ, our Elder brother...or...Lucifer, an enemy of God thrown out of heaven for rebellion, right?

No one can say God does not exist and remain believing in the other members of Deity, ie, Jehovah and the Holy Ghost.

So, again, prove to us that you truly exist, for without God existing, you could not have been born at all.

[freedomforall]

Book of Mormon Principles: Come unto Christ

By Elder Robert R. Steuer

Of the Seventy

In a wonderfully fitting conclusion to the Book of Mormon, the prophet Moroni exhorts us to “come unto Christ” (Moro. 10:30, 32). As I have pondered the meaning of this urgent plea, several questions have come to my mind: Why come unto Christ? How can we find the way? And how can we know we are on the right path?

Why Come unto Christ?

The world offers us many choices of whom or what to “come unto.” Diverse religions, philosophies, social systems, political ideologies, and business or personal interests clamor for our allegiance. Many people believe there are many roads to heaven and it simply does not matter which one you are traveling on.

During Jesus’ mortal ministry there was a time when thousands of people followed after Him. Perhaps they were simply curious or wanted something. He fed them from five loaves and two fishes and taught them, “I am [the] bread of life” (John 6:48). Learning of the obedience that would be required, many then chose no longer to come unto Him. Jesus asked His Twelve Apostles, “Will ye also go away?” (John 6:67).

Peter replied: “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God” (John 6:68–69).

Why come unto Christ? Simply stated, because all other ways do not lead to eternal life. Jesus made this bold declaration: “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6).

The scriptures declare that “no unclean thing can enter” the holy presence of God. To become clean—to “stand spotless … at the last day”—we must be cleansed through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ (see 3 Ne. 27:19–20; see also Moro. 10:33). Christ is the only name, way, or means to come unto the Father (see Mosiah 3:17; Hel. 5:9).

At times we may look in the wrong places—to other people and other things—for answers to life’s crucial questions when we should be looking to the Savior and seeking guidance from the Holy Ghost. When we make the decision to look to Christ and follow the noble thoughts and feelings from within, our character begins to gain substance. As President David O. McKay (1873–1970) said, “What you sincerely in your heart think of Christ will determine what you are [and] will largely determine what your acts will be.” 1

How Can We Find the Way?

By divine plan we are constantly faced with important decisions. We may ask ourselves questions such as: Why is there so much suffering and hatred? Does God exist? What does He think of me? We eventually come to the conclusion that we do not know all the answers and that surely there must be someone who can see more clearly. If we realize that someone is Jesus Christ, we are likely to become more humble and teachable and to desire, like Abraham, “to be a greater follower of righteousness” (Abr. 1:2).

In our quiet moments of reflection, we can search our thoughts for the way to Christ. President James E. Faust, Second Counselor in the First Presidency, said: “Hold your soul very still, and listen to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. Follow the noble, intuitive feelings planted deep within your souls by Deity.” 2 The Holy Spirit is a revelator whose responsibility it is to lead us to Christ (see Moro. 10:5–7; D&C 11:12–14). As we begin to yield “to the enticings of the Holy Spirit” (Mosiah 3:19), we will admit to ourselves our faults and truly repent.

With the help of the Holy Spirit, we can now humbly obey the laws of obedience and sacrifice, enduring the adversity that comes to us. We then begin to develop personal worthiness and a soft and understanding heart. If we can avoid murmuring, our works become “meet for repentance” (Alma 9:30), giving us the required broken heart and contrite spirit. Thus, in coming to Christ, our way becomes His way.

As we enter this narrow and straight way (see 2 Ne. 9:41), we may ask at times, Why so straight? Yet somehow we know that all other paths waste our common gift—time. The straight path is still the shortest distance between the natural man and the disciple of Christ.

How Can We Know We Are on the Right Path?

We can know we are on the right path by the blessings and manifestations of the Holy Ghost in our lives. He will graciously give us knowledge, instruction, and correction so that we can return to the Father’s presence. As we honor the priesthood and participate in sacred ordinances, “the power of godliness [will be] manifest” in our personal lives (see D&C 84:20). “The words of Christ will tell [us] all things what [we] should do” (2 Ne. 32:3), leading us to a joy that none save the humble and penitent know (see Alma 27:18).

As we search the scriptures, we will be able to say we have heard the Savior’s voice (see D&C 18:34–36). In our afflictions, we will be able to feel and identify with His pain and suffering. As we repent, His Atonement will draw us even closer to Him.

If we follow the path, we allow Him to work on and through us. We find He is able to do more with us than we could do; we serve with more capability than we thought we could.

We are truly blessed as we choose to come unto Christ. To taste of His atoning love is a joy beyond measure. To be His disciple and follow His way is the best decision we will ever make. He is the very Christ.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/12/book ... t?lang=eng

[Older/wiser?]

I am so very sorry Rhetoric for the pain and suffering you are experiencing. There is no scripture or reasoning that can be said to soften or change your heart, that is a choice you alone make, I see others have had a dark road to travel as have I. What is it that makes some who suffer fall down and call upon God while others stand and fight in anger I do not know. The brothers of Nephi saw and were commanded by an Angel yet they fought against, Alma the younger had an experience and changed. What comes to mind is some words from a poem I was given at the death of our son, it was the story of a struggling Pine. Tennyson says a tree is storm-strengthened on a windy site'. The strongest trees are always those that have weathered the greatest number of gales. It's the same with us. It really doesn't matter what happens to us, but it matters a great deal what happens in us. The feelings you have developed are because of the glasses you wear looking at your situation, I would pray that sometime you will desire to see your life situation differently, peace to you, don't give up on God ,He will never give up on you. and YES He does exist.

[butterfly]

Rhetoric, life is so hard, it really is. But that doesn't negate the existence of God- I've been in His presence, I know He's real. And I've been so mad at Him when horrible things have happened and I can promise you He knows exactly why I'm angry and how I'm feeling - He's usually just as upset about the situation as I am.

Remember when Lazarus died and Mary & Martha were so sad? And even though Jesus knew He was about to raise Lazarus from the dead, He still wept because Mary & Martha were sad.

It's the same with each of us. He grieves when we suffer. And the times when I have just unleashed all my anger and frustration on Him and really just chewed Him out, I've been shocked at how equally intense He's come to comfort me.

So my suggestion to you would be to yell at God. Tell Him you're mad and that you think He's doing a lousy job. Tell Him that in your book He's not worth worshipping. Tell Him that He's got 1 last chance and if He doesn't make Himself unmistakably known to you then you're done with Him.
I'm serious. What good is a parent, even if that parent is God, if they don't help their own suffering child?

[Alaris]

I think about this topic quite often. Choice is the key to understanding the proof that God exists. The more I learn the deeper my knowledge and absolute certainty that God exists is not something I can hand to someone else. This is the genius of God.

Likewise, every gem and pearl I receive is so subtle like the still small voice. So subtle that I have to put it in practice and try my faith of that truth before I can receive a witness that it's true.

Now after all I've learned I know the truths of the LDS Church are just the tip of the iceberg... The iceberg of truth is huge and deep and wonderful.... Yet even now if I wanted to pursue a life of sin I could chalk it all up to my imagination and go sin.

This life is a test and a learning experience friend. A test to see if we will seek him without our memories of him. A learning experience to live after the manner of happiness and of sin to experience and learn for ourselves.

And here is the trick. All you need to find out is a humble heart, and open mind, and a prayer. No one will ever be able to convince you of God's existence or identity. That's not how this experience is designed. You have to find out by desire and effort.

There is a promise in Moroni 10:3-5 to you that if you still read from the book of Mormon, ponder the words, and then pray and sincerely ask God in the name of Jesus Christ if the book is true you will know by the power of the Holy Ghost. Yes it's subtle... But it is real. Everyone I've seen follow this promise gets an answer every single time, and I've seen quite a few. No other religion In aware of has anything like this as a conversion tool. It's nice because we leave the convincing to God.

[freedomforall]

Rhetoric, life is so hard, it really is. But that doesn't negate the existence of God- I've been in His presence, I know He's real. And I've been so mad at Him when horrible things have happened and I can promise you He knows exactly why I'm angry and how I'm feeling - He's usually just as upset about the situation as I am.

Remember when Lazarus died and Mary & Martha were so sad? And even though Jesus knew He was about to raise Lazarus from the dead, He still wept because Mary & Martha were sad.

It's the same with each of us. He grieves when we suffer. And the times when I have just unleashed all my anger and frustration on Him and really just chewed Him out, I've been shocked at how equally intense He's come to comfort me.

So my suggestion to you would be to yell at God. Tell Him you're mad and that you think He's doing a lousy job. Tell Him that in your book He's not worth worshipping. Tell Him that He's got 1 last chance and if He doesn't make Himself unmistakably known to you then you're done with Him.
I'm serious. What good is a parent, even if that parent is God, if they don't help their own suffering child?

Let's see what scripture has to say about counseling the Lord.

Jacob 4:10

10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works.

Isa. 45:9
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands