Does God exist?

[Rose Garden]

I considered myself a Christian and Mormon for most of my life. However, I now consider myself an Agnostic Atheist. The reason being this: There is no evidence to support the existence of a god, let alone the "Christian God". Agree or disagree? Let me hear your thoughts and supporting evidence.

No one can come to know whether their particular flavor of "god" is a reality until they have tried him/her/it to the very limit. They can't know until they have done or tried to do everything their god asks of them with all their mind, might, and heart. So many people say they know something is true when they don't really know and this is especially true on the subject of God. People will insist that they know all about what God is like and will speak authoritatively on the subject when they really don't know anything at all.

Malachi 3:10

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If I were a mechanic and confident in my skills, I could say to you "prove me herewith" or give my services a try to see if I am really a good mechanic or not. If I were not a good mechanic but claimed to be, I would be inwardly fearful of you testing me and trying me. If you thought me a bad mechanic but I was really good, then I would also be happy for the opportunity to prove myself to you. If I were a perfect mechanic, you could throw any number of curve balls at me trying to prove how bad I was and I would be able to confidently take care of them.

I tested the god I was brought up to believe in to the very limits. When I had done everything I could possibly do to fulfill what he asked of me, I waited for the promised return. I waited one year and then two. During that time I endured agony beyond anything I ever have and beyond anything I could describe to others. I waited as patiently as possible for release from these pains. After about two years the proverbial "straw" broke the camel's back. The god I believed in didn't exist.

I felt betrayed and at the same time I was terribly aware of the irony of feeling betrayed by a being that didn't exist in the first place. After some weeks of turmoil, I sat myself down and asked myself if I really didn't believe in God. As I thought about it, I remembered the miracles that had taken place in my life, many, many miracles: instantaneous healings, slower healings that defied explanation, medicine and gasoline not wasting away, spiritual guidance to places and people that I needed, and so on and so forth. When I was done, I realized I didn't believe in God, I knew God existed. What was wrong was that I didn't really know who or what God was. The concepts that I'd held on to as true were not necessarily true.

I had to change my approach. I had to stop insisting that I knew God and open myself to learning about God. I had to clean my slate of all preconceived notions and open myself to accept truth. Before, God was a man with long white hair and a beard who wore a white robe and hung out in a heavenly place looking down on the earth and granted "blessings" on his personal whim which I was supposed to blindly trust was fair. Now I acknowledge that God is not someone or something I am capable of seeing right now, that I don't really know what God looks like, but that I can "feel" God and if I pay attention to those feelings and experiment with them, I can understand truth.

So here I am, proving God. Or more accurately, exploring God. I no longer do something and expect a certain outcome and then get mad because things don't work the way I expect. If things don't work how I expect, I accept that I lack understanding. I feel like one of the blind men feeling up the elephant, exploring curves and textures, making new discoveries as I continue seeking. I don't argue with the other blind men anymore because I don't know if they know something I don't. I've quit slamming myself against walls insisting that they conform to what I want to be true and accept the boundaries as they are. I try to learn where the walls are and what they are like and accept them.

In my explorations, I'm seeing even more miracles. Now I'm noticing that these miracles follow certain laws. Instead of insisting everything happen the way I think it should, I seek to fulfill the laws. As I'm learning to follow the law of God, I see consistent results. If I want a miraculous healing, I need to follow the laws that result in healing. If I want prosperity, I need to follow the laws that result in prosperity.

As I've explored, I've formed a new concept of God, one that I am currently testing and trying out. I believe that there is a being that exists that loves me and wants to be with me just because I'm me. He doesn't need me to change or conform to certain molds in order to want to be with me. He doesn't need me to serve him but loves to serve me and wants me to allow him to serve me. Even though he loves being with me he is also totally willing to let go of me if I find something I want more than him. He just wants me to be happy and so if I'm happy, then he is happy for me. So far, as I've explored this new concept of God, which came to me through spiritual means, it's proven to bring me happiness and fill my soul with love. As long as the "fruits" remain good, I will continue to seek this God.

So anyway, to answer your question definitively, I would disagree. There is evidence that God exists. By that I mean, there is evidence that something exists outside of the world as perceived through our five senses. That I know without question. But what that is, I cannot say with any certainty at this point. I'm pretty certain that most religious depictions of God are false. Currently, I'm having a wonderful time figuring God out. For the most part, the agony and pains are gone. They were the result of me throwing myself against the walls of truth. When I encounter pain these days, I stop slamming myself against the wall and start exploring.

[Silver Pie]

Rhetoric.Power, if you come on a board that is populated by religious people and ask that question [Does God exist?} with your current paradigm, the odds of you getting an answer you are willing to accept is pretty close to nil.

One cannot share their knowledge of God, because that knowledge comes via experiences with God, and those experiences are subjective. You cannot really know if another really knows God. You cannot know if someone else is deceived or not. You cannot really know if someone else is lying to you. The only way to know God is through your own experiences.

[ebenezerarise]

Sorry, I might just be dense, but how is this evidence that there is a God?

Powerful imagery, by the way, and certainly something like that can have the effect of really focusing on our mortality and stripping away arrogance and pride, but I don't understand how it is evidence.

To be clear, I am not trying to argue. I'm just curious.

-Finrock

The Glory of God is intelligence. Or, more simply put, **us**.

That is the very reason why man in the past 100 years has both accomplished so much and messed up so wildly.

And it is why an ape today is the same as an ape 1000 years ago. He can't really **evolve** --- but we do. Each of us. Individually. Constantly.

"Evidence" as a dictionary might define it is in this case better termed "intelligence". Just as the curious and the demanding alike change their views on this and that it isn't usually because the **evidence** became more convincing. It is that we have evolved.

Most atheists I know detest the old foxhole theory. But they cannot escape it. In the course of my life experience I have been around a lot of death and spent more than a fair amount of time with the dying from many different walks of life. And I've seen the **evolution** death or impending death creates.

It seems many do their best evolving, their best thinking, their best exercising of intelligence in their final days.

It really is the great equalizer.

[freedomforall]

Let me ask this question:

If God does not exist, then what the heck are we doing here on earth having to fight off Satan at every turn, deal with wickedness and turmoil daily, regularly choose between right and wrong...and have hope for a better world where none of this crap exists?

God does not pull away from us, even though it seems like it at times. We are tested and tried, sometimes beyond what we think we can handle, yet God knows what we need when we need it. We are the ones that pull away, harden our hearts or say we want no more to do with God.

God says to us that he will test and try our reins, our very heart strings...because for who he loves he will chasten and get us into shape so we can return to him. Sometimes this process hurts and hurts a lot. Just ask Job, or Christ or Abinidi, or Alma, or Paul/Saul, or Zeezrom...or, or, or, or, or, or,....even David.

Test, Try, Prove

I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, Ex. 16:4.

God is come to prove you, Ex. 20:20.

my God, that thou triest the heart, 1 Chr. 29:17 (Ps. 7:9; Prov. 17:3; Jer. 11:20; 1 Thes. 2:4).

when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold, Job 23:10.

Lord trieth the righteous, Ps. 11:5 (Jer. 20:12).

know my heart: try me, Ps. 139:23.

try them as gold is tried, Zech. 13:9.

Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you, Luke 22:31.

we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom, Acts 14:22.

fire shall try every man’s work, 1 Cor. 3:13.

in a great trial of affliction, 2 Cor. 8:2.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good, 1 Thes. 5:21.

in all points tempted like as we are, Heb. 4:15.

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac, Heb. 11:17.

trying of your faith worketh patience, James 1:3.

when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, James 1:12.

trial of your faith … be found unto praise, 1 Pet. 1:7.

fiery trial which is to try you, 1 Pet. 4:12.

that ye may be tried, Rev. 2:10.

receive no witness until after the trial of your faith, Ether 12:6.

he that is faithful in tribulation, D&C 58:2.

I send you out to prove the world, D&C 84:79.

I will prove you in all things, D&C 98:14.

they must needs be chastened and tried, D&C 101:4.

after much tribulation … cometh the blessing, D&C 103:12.

brought thus far for a trial of their faith, D&C 105:19.

that you may prove yourselves unto me, D&C 124:55.

I did it … to prove you all, as I did Abraham, D&C 132:51.

we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things, Abr. 3:25.

Reins

righteous God trieth the hearts and reins, Ps. 7:9.

my reins also instruct me in the night seasons, Ps. 16:7.

faithfulness the girdle of his reins, Isa. 11:5 (2 Ne. 21:5; 30:11).

Lord … that triest the reins and the heart, Jer. 11:20.

thou art … far from their reins, Jer. 12:2.

seest the reins and the heart, Jer. 20:12.

I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts, Rev. 2:23.

Suffering

smote Job with sore boils, Job 2:7.

they pierced my hands and my feet, Ps. 22:16.

I gave my back to the smiters, Isa. 50:6.

fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night, Jer. 9:1.

for thy sake I have suffered rebuke, Jer. 15:15.

Suppose ye that these Galilæans were sinners … because they suffered, Luke 13:2.

it behoved Christ to suffer, Luke 24:46.

shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, Acts 3:18.

worthy to suffer shame for his name, Acts 5:41.

if so be that we suffer with him, Rom. 8:17.

one member suffer, all the members suffer, 1 Cor. 12:26.

Charity suffereth long, 1 Cor. 13:4 (Moro. 7:45).

sufferings of Christ abound in us, 2 Cor. 1:5.

ye are partakers of the sufferings, 2 Cor. 1:7.

lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ, Gal. 6:12.

suffer for his sake, Philip. 1:29.

Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all, Philip. 3:8.

worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer, 2 Thes. 1:5.

If we suffer, we shall also reign, 2 Tim. 2:12.

godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, 2 Tim. 3:12.

he himself hath suffered being tempted, Heb. 2:18.

learned he obedience by the things which he suffered, Heb. 5:8.

Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, Heb. 11:25.

Remember … them which suffer adversity, Heb. 13:3.

prophets … for an example of suffering, James 5:10.

when ye do well, and suffer for it, 1 Pet. 2:20.

if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, 1 Pet. 3:14.

Christ also hath once suffered, 1 Pet. 3:18 (D&C 138:7).

ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings, 1 Pet. 4:13.

thou shalt suffer … I will give thee a crown of life, Rev. 2:10.

he suffereth the pains of all men, 2 Ne. 9:21 (D&C 18:11).

he shall suffer temptations, Mosiah 3:7.

Son of God suffereth according to the flesh, Alma 7:13.

patient in all their sufferings, Alma 20:29.

we have suffered all manner of afflictions, Alma 26:30.

they should suffer no manner of afflictions, Alma 31:38.

that they might not suffer pain, 3 Ne. 28:38.

Which suffering caused myself, even God … to tremble because of pain, D&C 19:18.

the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, D&C 45:4.

they who suffer persecution for my name, D&C 101:35.

reap eternal joy for all our sufferings, D&C 109:76.

Remember thy suffering saints, D&C 121:6.

[butterfly]

I considered myself a Christian and Mormon for most of my life. However, I now consider myself an Agnostic Atheist. The reason being this: There is no evidence to support the existence of a god, let alone the "Christian God". Agree or disagree? Let me hear your thoughts and supporting evidence.

No one can come to know whether their particular flavor of "god" is a reality until they have tried him/her/it to the very limit. They can't know until they have done or tried to do everything their god asks of them with all their mind, might, and heart. So many people say they know something is true when they don't really know and this is especially true on the subject of God. People will insist that they know all about what God is like and will speak authoritatively on the subject when they really don't know anything at all.

Malachi 3:10

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If I were a mechanic and confident in my skills, I could say to you "prove me herewith" or give my services a try to see if I am really a good mechanic or not. If I were not a good mechanic but claimed to be, I would be inwardly fearful of you testing me and trying me. If you thought me a bad mechanic but I was really good, then I would also be happy for the opportunity to prove myself to you. If I were a perfect mechanic, you could throw any number of curve balls at me trying to prove how bad I was and I would be able to confidently take care of them.

I tested the god I was brought up to believe in to the very limits. When I had done everything I could possibly do to fulfill what he asked of me, I waited for the promised return. I waited one year and then two. During that time I endured agony beyond anything I ever have and beyond anything I could describe to others. I waited as patiently as possible for release from these pains. After about two years the proverbial "straw" broke the camel's back. The god I believed in didn't exist.

I felt betrayed and at the same time I was terribly aware of the irony of feeling betrayed by a being that didn't exist in the first place. After some weeks of turmoil, I sat myself down and asked myself if I really didn't believe in God. As I thought about it, I remembered the miracles that had taken place in my life, many, many miracles: instantaneous healings, slower healings that defied explanation, medicine and gasoline not wasting away, spiritual guidance to places and people that I needed, and so on and so forth. When I was done, I realized I didn't believe in God, I knew God existed. What was wrong was that I didn't really know who or what God was. The concepts that I'd held on to as true were not necessarily true.

I had to change my approach. I had to stop insisting that I knew God and open myself to learning about God. I had to clean my slate of all preconceived notions and open myself to accept truth. Before, God was a man with long white hair and a beard who wore a white robe and hung out in a heavenly place looking down on the earth and granted "blessings" on his personal whim which I was supposed to blindly trust was fair. Now I acknowledge that God is not someone or something I am capable of seeing right now, that I don't really know what God looks like, but that I can "feel" God and if I pay attention to those feelings and experiment with them, I can understand truth.

So here I am, proving God. Or more accurately, exploring God. I no longer do something and expect a certain outcome and then get mad because things don't work the way I expect. If things don't work how I expect, I accept that I lack understanding. I feel like one of the blind men feeling up the elephant, exploring curves and textures, making new discoveries as I continue seeking. I don't argue with the other blind men anymore because I don't know if they know something I don't. I've quit slamming myself against walls insisting that they conform to what I want to be true and accept the boundaries as they are. I try to learn where the walls are and what they are like and accept them.

In my explorations, I'm seeing even more miracles. Now I'm noticing that these miracles follow certain laws. Instead of insisting everything happen the way I think it should, I seek to fulfill the laws. As I'm learning to follow the law of God, I see consistent results. If I want a miraculous healing, I need to follow the laws that result in healing. If I want prosperity, I need to follow the laws that result in prosperity.

As I've explored, I've formed a new concept of God, one that I am currently testing and trying out. I believe that there is a being that exists that loves me and wants to be with me just because I'm me. He doesn't need me to change or conform to certain molds in order to want to be with me. He doesn't need me to serve him but loves to serve me and wants me to allow him to serve me. Even though he loves being with me he is also totally willing to let go of me if I find something I want more than him. He just wants me to be happy and so if I'm happy, then he is happy for me. So far, as I've explored this new concept of God, which came to me through spiritual means, it's proven to bring me happiness and fill my soul with love. As long as the "fruits" remain good, I will continue to seek this God.

So anyway, to answer your question definitively, I would disagree. There is evidence that God exists. By that I mean, there is evidence that something exists outside of the world as perceived through our five senses. That I know without question. But what that is, I cannot say with any certainty at this point. I'm pretty certain that most religious depictions of God are false. Currently, I'm having a wonderful time figuring God out. For the most part, the agony and pains are gone. They were the result of me throwing myself against the walls of truth. When I encounter pain these days, I stop slamming myself against the wall and start exploring.

I love how you explained this! My experience is very much like what you're describing. We think we know God but when nothing happens, we either think He doesn't exist or that we need to work harder to be more worthy of His attention.

Rarely do we think "maybe my understanding of God is incorrect. Maybe He really is love; maybe the yoke really is easy and the burden is light." Imo, fearing God is a major hindrance to knowing Him.

[Dave62]

Asking if God exists is like an unborn baby asking if mother exists...http://blogs.universal.org/renatocardos ... ter-death/

[BeNotDeceived]

To think the universe would come about without intelligence doth prove lack of same. :ymhug:

[BackBlast]

One of the issues I have with the sort of evidence that you are providing is that there are people of every religion that feel this way. Even those that worship a completely different God than you do. So are there multiple gods? or does he not care if you worship a different god and he will answer and communicate regardless? There are so many different gods out there and all the followers are just as confident as you. It seems a little contradictory especially when you take into account the church's doctrine.

IMHO, the nature of God is best discussed with the assumption that He is, when serious doubt sets in as to his existence this line of questions (Well, which one?) usually just muddies the issue.

One of the things that set me on the path of no longer believing in a Deity is suffering. A few years ago I was rudely awakened to just how much suffering exists in the world. So many people say it is caused by free will but a lot of it has nothing to do with the actions of people, just the "power of God". God is supposed to have a special place in his heart for children yet look at all the suffering in the world experienced by even just the children. It is absolutely horrendous and sickening.

I would quibble with your reasoning. I suspect that your path was set in another manner than you suggest here, most people fall into apostasy and doubt after failing to live up to the standards they feel they should. The reasoning around the doubts is a means to justifying one's own actions to oneself.

Regardless, I will address the logic of your question, as maybe it will help you.

One of the aspects of the universe is ...everything has it's opposite... Like a mathmatical plot, as soon you declare that there is a dimension +X, -X is also defined. Good and evil. Health and sickness. Hot and cold. Light and darkness. Pleasure and pain. To make pleasure and happiness available to men, pain and sadness must also be present. If God were to eliminate pain, he would also need to eliminate it's opposite so that the axis is removed completely. Then it could, indeed, cease to exist. This is a road that ends in the complete elimination of the organized universe. If you eliminate all evil, good ceases to exist as well.

This is why suffering exists, so that you may also have pleasure.

What really shows the nature and character of God would be to see the entirety of creation, not the little bit of it that we can see here. In the words of the science of our day, you are looking at a little piece of anecdotal evidence and drawing conclusions based on it.

Another point, in an awkward twist you even use evidence of God to say that He doesn't exist. You are declaring that suffering is bad by using it as counter evidence, but if bad exists then good must also, and therefore God.

The reason there is the quantity that there here is function of how many people choose actions that have evil consequences at this location. This brings up the question of why God allows other agents into his universe if they can choose and thus create factions or groups that might potentially seek to destroy his creations. But that is a topic for another post.

[BruceRGilbert]

What constitutes evidence?

The nature of consciousness is to encounter that which is sought for, otherwise the search continues. If one is seeking to encounter evidence that God
does not exist, they will continue searching to validate such. Likewise and to the contrary, if one is seeking to encounter evidence that God does exist, they will continue to search until that is validated.

One will encounter that which they are predisposed to . . . such is the nature of "perception." One can only comprehend that which they seek . . . unless they are aware that their search is "limited" by their own expectations. (More to follow . . . interruption. ;) )

[freedomforall]

Along those lines with what BackBlast wrote, here is but just a few scriptural samples of what we are to endure here on earth and why.

2 Corinthians 4:17
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

D&C 63:66
66 These things remain to overcome through patience, that such may receive a more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, otherwise, a greater condemnation. Amen.

Acts 14:22
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

TG Adversity

[BruceRGilbert]

Agnosticism: Venturing into the unknown requires courage to modify perceptions and expectation in an exchange from ignorance to knowledge.
Atheism: One must overcome their anger toward God. A conscious choice has been made to reject or negate any notion of Deity.

[freedomforall]

Attempting to disprove the existence of God is like trying to disprove the existence of gravity. From two airplanes @ 20,000 feet elevation two objects are dropped at exactly the same moment, 1) from one a ton of lead, and 2) from the other a ton of feathers, theoretically, which one will hit the ground first?
Had gravity not been present, then where else would they go?

If God did not exist then we wouldn't be here figuring it all out.

[BruceRGilbert]

The "Agnostic" stance is more intellectually and emotionally honest than the "Atheistic" by definition because it is a declaration of being "without knowledge," rather than proclaiming that God does not exist. Because it is impossible to prove a "negative," the Atheist is unable to claim knowledge of "non-existence." To do so would infer that all possibilities have been examined and exhausted in the quest for "GOD." Having had conversations with those who make such claims and in an "examination for discovery," a working definition of what or who "GOD" would be has been in order. A "working" definition of who or what "GOD" is, entails the following, objective criteria: "GOD" would be defined as the furthest "outlier" of intelligent beings, being the "MOST" intelligent of them all. Considering a distribution of ALL intelligent beings in the Universe, then, "GOD," by definition, would be the "greatest of all." A quest for such a being using prescribed scientific methods would entail exhaustive "I.Q" tests to determine who that being is. Do you suppose that such a quest has been undertaken? Perhaps, now, you can perceive the "dishonesty" in claiming that such a being does not exist. At best, the honest person would say, "I do not believe that there is a "god," but I do not "KNOW."

[brlenox]

Not believing in a Deity requires no faith, that is counter-intuitive.

I would accept a real answer for the suffering in the world. I have read all of the major positions of philosophers throughout history on the subject and some are better explanations than others. The decent explanations however have to take away aspects of god that are common beliefs especially for Christians. One example would be that God cannot be All-powerful and All-good at the same time. If he is both then he would stop suffering but if he has the power but doesn't then he isn't all good. Also, if he wants to do something but can't he isn't all-powerful.

I have spent most of my life very dedicated to God. Graduated Seminary with perfect attendance, never missing church or youth meetings on Wednesdays, I went to BYU, I served a mission in El Salvador, praying several times a day, never missing scripture study, etc. I never got any confirmation however that wasn't the equivalent of all other religions or even just sects of Christianity. I don't feel this way from a lack of trying, I have tried more than most people out in the world to find God. Also from a personal experience I made a personal covenant with God if he would help me and my wife conceive and protect the baby. We got pregnant and from an unknown cause we had a miscarriage. It was absolutely devastating. It then took us about a year to conceive another time and there were health complications after birth. He was in the NICU for weeks and needed oxygen, feeding tube and surgeries. He is missing a large portion of his DNA (25 genes to be exact) and he is one of a kind (not a single person has, past or present, his missing genes). He requires multiple forms of therapy weekly and he is only a little older than 2. What kind of a god would do something like that to a child? I would happily suffer so my son wouldn't have to and if there is a god then he knows that. Yet my son will suffer his entire life. This is just one instance of millions out there, and probably billions over the course of history. I can't see an explanation of suffering that would justify that immense amount of pain.

Now for the Noah's ark comment. Are you trying to say that the suffering is for the good of humankind? So God does it on purpose? Now if the Noah's ark story is even literal and not an allegory: God was punishing the wicked, supposedly Noah and his family were the last remaining decent people. So suffering comes from being wicked, as a punishment. Now what about all of the suffering in the world that has nothing to do with wickedness? All of the abused children (sexual, physical, verbal) in the world? or the children going to bed hungry and starving to death?

The story of your child is difficult I am sure and I hope you do not perceive my interest in wrong fashion. Nonetheless, what you describe of his missing chromosomes is completely fascinating. Can you provide any more description that expands understanding? Is this similar to Williams syndrome? In what ways has his health been impacted? ...and any further explanation of the chromosomes and how he is able to continue sustaining life in the absence of such essential material.

[BruceRGilbert]

In the instance of the conversation with the bomb, cited above in a preliminary posting, note that in response to the question, "How do you know you exist,?" the response was given, "I think; therefore, I am." This "thinking" involves our "internal" world. In this life, all we will ever really know is our own "consciousness." Our conscious selves involve thoughts and feelings about ourselves, others, things, or ideas in the temporal domain of past, present or future. More definitions are in order:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

It has been said that "perception is reality," and so it is. A person's perception is "their" reality. It should be recognized; however, that that reality is "relative." Truth in this realm, (the internal one,) is relative.

There is another "reality" that exists independent of a single observer, intelligence, or consciousness. This is the "reality" that exists outside of ourselves and is "shared." Truth in this realm, (the external one,) is absolute. It is the "gravity" that Freedomforall mentioned in his postings . . . and it doesn't care if you believe in it or not. It doesn't care if you perceive it or not. It will still act upon you.

There is "Relative Truth" and there is "Absolute Truth" and they are both based on the same principle. That principle may be called "experience." We, need; however, to break it down further. Specifically, it may be called, "The Law of Witnesses;" the identification of "causality."

2 Corinthians 13:
1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

The "Law of Witnesses" work inside of us in our "internal world," as well as outside of us in our "external world." Within, it occurs when our thoughts and feelings are unified and proclaim the same conclusion and outside it occurs when we experience the concurring testimony of events as things and/or people. The scientific method is based upon this phenomena . . . the ascertainment of consensus via "independent" witnesses.

The problem arises when witnesses do not concur . . . and in the resolution of contradictions.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

There is the problem of those who "lie" and are not "honest." (False Witnesses)

Deception involves the employment of "magic, smoke, and mirrors" to conceal the truth. Honesty employs their opposites: "reality, clarity, and windows."

Hebrews 4:
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

There is always choice involved. One may believe the "witnesses" or one may doubt them. The Lectures on Faith is replete with how the first notion of the existence of God was based upon the "witnesses of the fathers who saw and experienced for themselves."

[Yahtzee]

Ah yes, the old "why do bad things happen to good people?" faith crisis. Now we see the crux of the issue and why you want your mission refund. I'm truly sorry about your son and can only imagine your pain.
Story time.
A number of years ago my nearly perfect friend passed away. She was a mother of 5, husband had just been made a bishop, and they were the kindest most generous people ever. Her son suffered for years with leukemia but pulled through. Another son was in a serious accident involving a head injury, weren't sure he'd live-but he did. While running a marathon she collapsed and died a week later from an unknown congenital defect, leaving behind a nursing baby.
Hadn't they been through enough? Were these the blessings of righteousness? I couldn't think of anyone I knew more Christlike than them. I was so angry! It took years before I realized why, and it was hard for me to swallow when I did.
Entitlement.
I (in my infinite wisdom) deemed that her family was entitled to some ease, something good. They deserved it for their righteousness. Isn't that the deal? Obedience brings blessings, right?
Guess what, none of us are entitled to ANYTHING except a resurrected body some day. Sure I see blessings as I keep my covenants, but they're usually not of a temporal nature. They are nearly always dependent on my level of humility. We live in a telestrial world where crap happens. It sucks. My dad died of cancer. I suffer from chronic illnesses. My friend's baby died from a chromosomal defect leaving her devastated. Yours suffers daily because of one. That's the world. That's what we signed up for.
My only comfort? A Savior who overcame the world.
I always hated the story of Job, but now I get it. "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."
I wish you the best and hope you find peace some day.

[Finrock]

Sorry, I might just be dense, but how is this evidence that there is a God?

Powerful imagery, by the way, and certainly something like that can have the effect of really focusing on our mortality and stripping away arrogance and pride, but I don't understand how it is evidence.

To be clear, I am not trying to argue. I'm just curious.

-Finrock

The Glory of God is intelligence. Or, more simply put, **us**.

That is the very reason why man in the past 100 years has both accomplished so much and messed up so wildly.

And it is why an ape today is the same as an ape 1000 years ago. He can't really **evolve** --- but we do. Each of us. Individually. Constantly.

"Evidence" as a dictionary might define it is in this case better termed "intelligence". Just as the curious and the demanding alike change their views on this and that it isn't usually because the **evidence** became more convincing. It is that we have evolved.

Most atheists I know detest the old foxhole theory. But they cannot escape it. In the course of my life experience I have been around a lot of death and spent more than a fair amount of time with the dying from many different walks of life. And I've seen the **evolution** death or impending death creates.

It seems many do their best evolving, their best thinking, their best exercising of intelligence in their final days.

It really is the great equalizer.

Interesting philosophy.

-Finrock

[BruceRGilbert]

Rhetoric.Power:

I am so sorry that your personal life has yielded such turmoil in terms of duress and affliction. You are a very compassionate and caring person, as you contemplate the suffering of "innocence." My heart goes out to you, your son, and your family - I understand. In the realm of experience, none are without "similar,' (not exact,) trials and tests in life. I would suppose that in your state of anger at the cards that have been dealt you, you find little solace in "preaching" or "expounding" upon the things that you already have visited. It is hard for you to "kick against the pricks," as it were. In doing so, every extension of anger yields more pain. It is a "fruitless effort," at best. Such is the nature of an "Abrahamic Test."

John Taylor, the third President of the Church, said: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say, in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: ‘You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (said he) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.’

It is the nature of great love, empathy, and compassion to author great emotional duress. God cries, too. He would have us understand that in order to be like Him, we must be capable of such "wrenching." Once a parent, always a parent. There will be an end to suffering.

"Two men peer out from the self-same bars,
One sees the "mud," the other sees the stars."

Please don't be consigned to live in the past, nor in a bleak present . . . look with faith and hope to the future. God bless you with peace that surpasses all understanding. It will be well . . . and there is a higher purpose than that which is apparent.

[davedan]

In this life, we can expect tribulation and adversity. The reality that bad things do happen to good people doesn't disprove Gods existence. The point of life os not to have an easy life, but to bear our adversity with patience and faith like Job.

Despite our trials, God is still a just God. In the pre-mortal existence, we were all given "informed consent". Informed Consent is what a medical doctor does before doing a painful surgery or procedure.

We were fully made aware of the potential for suffering here on Earth but also the unspeakable rewards. Also, God promised to make up to us all of our losses. The Bible reveals that not only did we accept the terms, "we shouted for joy!".

[Silver]

Even if we live a whole life of suffering that lasts 70-80 long years, there is nothing, not atheism or any other belief system, except for Mormonism, that can bring as much comfort both in this life and in the eternities to come. For the sake of argument, I'm willing to accept the possibility that the gospel restored through Joseph Smith is false. What then? Where can I turn for peace? Nothing else comes close. Knowing the Gospel and knowing that it is true bring sweet comfort.

[kittycat51]

Even if we live a whole life of suffering that lasts 70-80 long years, there is nothing, not atheism or any other belief system, except for Mormonism, that can bring as much comfort both in this life and in the eternities to come. For the sake of argument, I'm willing to accept the possibility that the gospel restored through Joseph Smith is false. What then? Where can I turn for peace? Nothing else comes close. Knowing the Gospel and knowing that it is true bring sweet comfort.

Reminds me of Elder Ballard's awesome talk in General Conference last October titled "To Whom Shall We Go?" wherein he states:

"If any one of you is faltering in your faith, I ask you the same question that Peter asked: “To whom shall [you] go?” If you choose to become inactive or to leave the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where will you go? What will you do? The decision to “walk no more” with Church members and the Lord’s chosen leaders will have a long-term impact that cannot always be seen right now. There may be some doctrine, some policy, some bit of history that puts you at odds with your faith, and you may feel that the only way to resolve that inner turmoil right now is to “walk no more” with the Saints. If you live as long as I have, you will come to know that things have a way of resolving themselves. An inspired insight or revelation may shed new light on an issue. Remember, the Restoration is not an event, but it continues to unfold.Never abandon the great truths revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Never stop reading, pondering, and applying the doctrine of Christ contained in the Book of Mormon.

Never fail to give equal time to the Lord through honest attempts to understand what the Lord has revealed. As my dear friend and former colleague Elder Neal A. Maxwell once said, “We should not assume … that just because something is unexplainable by us it is unexplainable.”

So before you make that spiritually perilous choice to leave, I encourage you to stop and think carefully before giving up whatever it was that brought you to your testimony of the restored Church of Jesus Christ in the first place. Stop and think about what you have felt here and why you felt it. Think about the times when the Holy Ghost has borne witness to you of eternal truth.

Where will you go to find others who share your belief in personal, loving Heavenly Parents, who teach us how to return to Their eternal presence?Where will you go to be taught about a Savior who is your best friend, who not only suffered for your sins but who also suffered “pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind” so “that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities,” including, I believe, the infirmity of loss of faith?

Where will you go to learn more about Heavenly Father’s plan for our eternal happiness and peace, a plan that is filled with wondrous possibilities, teachings, and guidance for our mortal and eternal lives? Remember, the plan of salvation gives mortal life meaning, purpose, and direction.

Where will you go to find a detailed and inspired Church organizational structure through which you are taught and supported by men and women who are deeply committed to serving the Lord by serving you and your family?

Where will you go to find living prophets and apostles, who are called by God to give you another resource for counsel, understanding, comfort, and inspiration for the challenges of our day?

Where will you go to find people who live by a prescribed set of values and standards that you share and want to pass along to your children and grandchildren?

And where will you go to experience the joy that comes through the saving ordinances and covenants of the temple?

Brothers and sisters, accepting and living the gospel of Christ can be challenging. It has always been thus, and it ever will be. Life can be like hikers ascending a steep and arduous trail. It is a natural and normal thing to occasionally pause on the path to catch our breath, to recalculate our bearings, and to reconsider our pace. Not everyone needs to pause on the path, but there is nothing wrong with doing so when your circumstances require. In fact, it can be a positive thing for those who take full advantage of the opportunity to refresh themselves with the living water of the gospel of Christ.

The danger comes when someone chooses to wander away from the path that leads to the tree of life. Sometimes we can learn, study, and know, and sometimes we have to believe, trust, and hope.

In the end, each one of us must respond to the Savior’s question: “Will ye also go away?” We all have to search for our own answer to that question. For some, the answer is easy; for others, it is difficult. I don’t pretend to know why faith to believe comes easier for some than for others. I’m just so grateful to know that the answers are always there, and if we seek them—really seek with real intent and with full purpose of a prayerful heart—we will eventually find the answers to our questions as we continue on the gospel path."

[Craig Johnson]

Dear rhetoric power are you still receiving on this? I would like to say something to you about this.

[Rand]

I considered myself a Christian and Mormon for most of my life. However, I now consider myself an Agnostic Atheist. The reason being this: There is no evidence to support the existence of a god, let alone the "Christian God". Agree or disagree? Let me hear your thoughts and supporting evidence.

There is immense arrogance in your stance. You did the "right things", but only as long as you felt you needed to to get the answer you insisted on to continue to believe in God. So you never really did the Right Thing. You only did something that you thought would give you what you wanted. I am sorry to be so bold, but you never gave obedience, you only tried to game the system. When God didn't cater to your whims, arbitrary demands and expectations, you countered with "if you don't rule the world according to my expectations, God, I will withdraw my support of you, as though in some way God is harmed by your capricious expectations. Life can be hard.
I know others have suffered. I never have. But, I watched as my mother endured 12 years as a quadriplegic. She suffered. She dealt with pain that would make most nephi's become Laman's. I watched my father be her care taker. I saw what happened to her, and to him as they humbled themselves, loved each other and endured in a faith, that in my fathers case was never supported with outside divine stimulus. He felt totally alone in his situation, but endured, fought a good fight and never wavered.
Through it, I saw how a tedious and brutal trial could create a gentle, good man and a woman of immense humility and deep spiritual strength. He was really never looked on as a leader of men, but he was a shaper of them. At the end of his life, many came to him and expressed that from him, and his quiet example, they learned how to be a man, a husband and a father. Amazingly, each used the same words.
They did not learn that from him because he lashed out at God in his trials, but because he didn't.
Whom the Lord loveth, the Lord chasteneth. I have seen first hand what a man and a woman can become when that chastening hand of fate roughly sands away the unneeded texture of your soul.
I have seen the brutality and beauty of that process.
I hope you humble yourself. Your child needs a man and a father of faith, not a father who ducks and runs from the trials that can come.
In a very real way, by rejecting the rightness of your childs challenge and trial, you are rejecting a part of your child. That is an onerous burden to give your child.
I don't blame you for your feelings. I also don't feel sorry for you. I do have compassion for you. Just no pity. You chose this. Your child chose this. Why? Now that is a worthwhile question. Seek the answer to that from our loving Heavenly Father and His Son, who carried every bit of suffering you have had and will ever have.
Follow St5ve3's example. It will serve your son well, and you also.
DC 112:12 For after much tribulation, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, cometh the blessing."
Be more humble. Be more patient. Be more submissive. Be more meek. The blessings well come...

[Craig Johnson]

I can prove that God exists and I have. But, I cannot prove that God exists to someone else, they have to find that out for themselves. What is really wonderful is talking to another person who has actually proved this, for themselves of course.