Which Faith Stage?

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Thinker
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Which Faith Stage?

Post by Thinker »

About 5 years ago, I had a faith crisis. It began when a respected, but blunt friend told me the church I was going to was bad in some ways. I sought to prove them wrong. I researched and came to realize some truth in the claim. It was really tough - like going through grief. Eventually, through a lot of tears, frustrations and with help from good people, I think I got to stage 5 in Fowler's Stages of Faith. http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html

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I've come to appreciate religions, especially the one I was raised in (the lds church) and yet I also realize that they are not my God and that I can, as Joseph Smith suggested, search, ponder & pray and decide "which portion belongs to [me]." I try to take the best & leave the rest. Of course, part of me visits stages 3 & 4, but I'm trying to incorporate principles of stage 5 and eventually stage 6 (more Christlike).

At which stage do you see yourself and why?
What do you think about these stages?

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oneClimbs
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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by oneClimbs »

In Fowlers model, I'm a 5.

I think Fowler's stages are a decent start to begin a discussion. There is a glaring weakness I see in his model though, it seems to ignore actual encounters with the divine and how that plays into a person's faith. This is a fine model is you are following the progress of a person who is religious but who never really encounters the divine. Models are not reality, I get that. I think Fowler's model is useful as long as it isn't considered the gospel truth. It's a guide, not the destination.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by eddie »

Faith never demands an answer to every question but seeks the assurance and courage to move forward,

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by freedomforall »

Read Alma 32 & Lectures on faith.

An excerpt:
12 And as faith is the moving cause of all action in temporal concerns, so it is in spiritual; for the Savior has said, and that truly, that he that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved. (Mark 16:16)

13 As we receive by faith, all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we, in like manner, receive by faith all spiritual blessings, that we do receive. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power, also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven, or on earth. Thus says the author of the epistle to the Hebrews. (11:3):

14 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God: so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

15 By this we understand that the principle of power, which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power, existing in the Deity, that all created things exist—so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, exist by reason of faith, as it existed in HIM.

16 Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed, neither would man have been formed of the dust—it is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal, as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute, (for it is an attribute) from the Deity and he would cease to exist.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

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I've known some individuals who reached the state of understanding what service to others and loving your fellow man really means. They help and serve others automatically like I automatically turn on my computer every morning. I want to be like them. I'm not there yet. I'm still selfish sometimes.

I limit my service to others because of the list of excuses I carry around with me :

I'm too tired.
I'm too stressed out.
I'm short on cash.
I helped them last month.
It's someone else's turn this week.
I have other plans that will conflict.
It's not my responsibility to help them, Let their family or Visiting Teachers do it.
Tell them to go talk to the Bishop.
I will call them back tomorrow.
My back and my feet hurt too much to do any cleaning.
I'm too old. Let the younger members do it.
I've got too many problems of my own to listen to theirs.
It's too far to drive.

I pray that Heavenly Father will help me change my behavior before it is too late.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by freedomforall »

Matchmaker wrote: April 10th, 2017, 4:54 am I've known some individuals who reached the state of understanding what service to others and loving your fellow man really means. They help and serve others automatically like I automatically turn on my computer every morning. I want to be like them. I'm not there yet. I'm still selfish sometimes.

I limit my service to others because of the list of excuses I carry around with me :

I'm too tired.
I'm too stressed out.
I'm short on cash.
I helped them last month.
It's someone else's turn this week.
I have other plans that will conflict.
It's not my responsibility to help them, Let their family or Visiting Teachers do it.
Tell them to go talk to the Bishop.
I will call them back tomorrow.
My back and my feet hurt too much to do any cleaning.
I'm too old. Let the younger members do it.
I've got too many problems of my own to listen to theirs.
It's too far to drive.

I pray that Heavenly Father will help me change my behavior before it is too late.
We can also serve by being served. I was walking one dark night near a park. Upon coming near a homeless man I spoke to him for a while and then offered a few dollars. He hadn't asked me but I felt it to be a right thing to do. He, apparently, was so grateful that he knelt and rifled through a bag he was hauling around and pulled out a plastic toy like an action figure and handed it to me. I thanked him and went on my way. I still have the toy as a reminder of him serving me.
There are many ways to serve without a lack of time, money or effort being a handicap. A smile, a kind word or even a nice comment to a stranger, wherever we may be, often makes a tough day a better one for those we know not.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

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5tev3 wrote: April 10th, 2017, 12:07 amIn Fowlers model, I'm a 5.

I think Fowler's stages are a decent start to begin a discussion. There is a glaring weakness I see in his model though, it seems to ignore actual encounters with the divine and how that plays into a person's faith. This is a fine model is you are following the progress of a person who is religious but who never really encounters the divine. Models are not reality, I get that. I think Fowler's model is useful as long as it isn't considered the gospel truth. It's a guide, not the destination.
I completely agree! This is a rough model - but there's much more particularly in and between stages 5 & 6. Still, this model helps to put the big picture in perspective - to realize there's more to go! We haven't arrived yet! :D

I have a book that deals more with the spiritual stages - it's called, "Putting on the Mind of Christ" by Marion. He talks about shadow aspects and the dark night of the soul (confronting our weaknesses deep down, as I think Jesus exemplified). I don't agree with everything he wrote, but he gave a good general idea of what to expect - in spiritual progress. Personally, I think that psycho-ology (study of the soul) is inseparable with spirituality, and emotional intelligence is something I'm actively working on.

A while back, I theorized this possible comparison between the stages Marion suggested with symbolism in Revelations:
1st seal, a crown is given - birth/life - Archaic & Magical Consciousness (Fowler's stage 1)
2nd seal, a sword is given - ability to discern good from evil - Mythic Consciousness (Stage 2 & 3)
3rd seal, balances are had - questioning myths - Rational Consciousness level (Stage 4)
4th seal - power was given - can see many perspectives - Vision-Logic Consciousness (Stage 5)
5th seal - Shown souls who were slain for the word of God - fears conquered for love - Psychic/Spirit Consciousness (This & the rest are between stages 5 & 6...)
6th seal - earthquakes, sun black, stars fall - see our imperfections "bursts our egotistical bubble" - Dark night of the senses
7th seal - silence, then "all hell breaks loose" with wars & plagues - Confronting "feelings buried alive"- Dark Night/Confronting Shadow Self
Christ reigns - Spiritual union with God, Our Creators - Christ Consciousness

BTW - Thanks again for some ideas you gave me about a book called hero worship or something - I read some notes I made from you - and they've helped a lot.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

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eddie wrote: April 10th, 2017, 12:36 amFaith never demands an answer to every question but seeks the assurance and courage to move forward,
I like that!
I think there must be some studying and pondering - but there is some that cannot be known and must be acted on based on faith.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

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freedomforall wrote: April 10th, 2017, 2:12 am 12 And as faith is the moving cause of all action in temporal concerns, so it is in spiritual
Good one, Freedom!
I really believe that - even down to the subatomic particles. I know faith is important, but for me, it helps to understand things as much as I can. I love when I find truth in other sources that testify of things I have theorized to be true.

IE: One of the smartest (IQ-wise) people ever was Gottfried Leibniz - he was a mathematician and philosopher. He theorized that all matter is based on perception - "monads" which can never be destroyed by external principles, but only pop in or out of existence by internal means. He basically explained more in depth scientifically what Moses said that God is I AM THAT I AM and what Jesus said... (but I won't quote that because we've discussed it plenty already ;) ). Also, the Quantum Mind Theory suggests that consciousness is what created us - our brains/bodies - not the other way around. And that is another way of saying we are eternal - intelligences before we got bodies.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - Reminds me of dark energy (or as some would say electric universe), placebo effect - besides what gets us excited and moving - that motivating spirit.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

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Matchmaker wrote: April 10th, 2017, 4:54 amI've known some individuals who reached the state of understanding what service to others and loving your fellow man really means. They help and serve others automatically like I automatically turn on my computer every morning. I want to be like them. I'm not there yet. I'm still selfish sometimes.

I limit my service to others because of the list of excuses I carry around with me :

I'm too tired.
I'm too stressed out.
I'm short on cash.
I helped them last month.
It's someone else's turn this week.
I have other plans that will conflict.
It's not my responsibility to help them, Let their family or Visiting Teachers do it.
Tell them to go talk to the Bishop.
I will call them back tomorrow.
My back and my feet hurt too much to do any cleaning.
I'm too old. Let the younger members do it.
I've got too many problems of my own to listen to theirs.
It's too far to drive.

I pray that Heavenly Father will help me change my behavior before it is too late.
It's not easy to love well, but it's a noble goal.
I think that I love others better when I love myself. I don't mean spoiling myself, but really taking care of myself - eating right, exercising, nourishing healthy self-esteem, and especially continuously tapping into the infinite well of love from God. When I'm filled with love, I love others - even those who are tough to love. But how to be filled with that love more?

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by EdGoble »

Thinker wrote: April 9th, 2017, 12:47 pm About 5 years ago, I had a faith crisis. It began when a respected, but blunt friend told me the church I was going to was bad in some ways. I sought to prove them wrong. I researched and came to realize some truth in the claim. It was really tough - like going through grief. Eventually, through a lot of tears, frustrations and with help from good people, I think I got to stage 5 in Fowler's Stages of Faith.
The model is flawed because it seeks to set up and define the "end stage" of faith for people as being mystical, as if there is no real truth, and to put forth the proposition that people stop really caring in the end about whether there is some real truth out there. This is a false assumption. I have been through a faith crisis many years ago, but my trajectory has never been anything much like these later stages of this model, but rather, it has taken me to a more advanced understanding of what parts of Mormonism are actually true (i.e. the actual core is), and that some things that were put forth as parts of the Gospel actually are not: young earth creationism, infallible prophets, etc. But the Book of Mormon is still literally true, just the things I was taught about it are not, like that all native Americans are 100% descendants of Lehi, but rather some of their ancestors got to America in other migrations over the land bridge and so forth. This model doesn't accurately define an advanced Mormon theological trajectory that still holds to the core claims of Mormonism. It only models a leftist, progressive, cultural Mormon trajectory, for someone that doesn't believe the Church is literally true anymore.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

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EdGoble wrote: April 18th, 2017, 3:49 pm
Thinker wrote: April 9th, 2017, 12:47 pm About 5 years ago, I had a faith crisis. It began when a respected, but blunt friend told me the church I was going to was bad in some ways. I sought to prove them wrong. I researched and came to realize some truth in the claim. It was really tough - like going through grief. Eventually, through a lot of tears, frustrations and with help from good people, I think I got to stage 5 in Fowler's Stages of Faith.
The model is flawed because it seeks to set up and define the "end stage" of faith for people as being mystical, as if there is no real truth, and to put forth the proposition that people stop really caring in the end about whether there is some real truth out there. This is a false assumption. I have been through a faith crisis many years ago, but my trajectory has never been anything much like these later stages of this model, but rather, it has taken me to a more advanced understanding of what parts of Mormonism are actually true (i.e. the actual core is), and that some things that were put forth as parts of the Gospel actually are not: young earth creationism, infallible prophets, etc. But the Book of Mormon is still literally true, just the things I was taught about it are not, like that all native Americans are 100% descendants of Lehi, but rather some of their ancestors got to America in other migrations over the land bridge and so forth. This model doesn't accurately define an advanced Mormon theological trajectory that still holds to the core claims of Mormonism. It only models a leftist, progressive, cultural Mormon trajectory, for someone that doesn't believe the Church is literally true anymore.
First off, I'm not a leftist and do not appreciate your implication otherwise. I believe strongly in marriage between a man and woman, that all have a right to LIFE (not matter what age - gestationally) and I believe in conservative financial principles. Personally, I do not subscribe to one set of ideologies, but take issues on a case-by-case basis, thinking and praying about them myself rather than depending on a group to tell me what to think and feel.

I could be mistaken, but you seem to be still in stage 3 - where one's religion (be it Judaism, Mormonism, etc.) is the "literal" truth. You are seeing in concrete terms, rather than seeing that scriptures are not meant to be history or science books to be taken literally, but rather they are spiritual books. It was said of Jesus that he ONLY taught in parables. Parables are symbolic - NOT literal. Spirituality is not so much about FACTs, as it is about connecting to God and loving others as oneself. Is there just one way to connect to God, or to love? Of course not - it's not a literal truth - but an abstract truth which can be applied countless different ways. Still, you do seem able to see how it's not all-or-nothing (it's not polarized/bi-polar thinking) and therefore you can see some flaws, while still seeing good.

Stage 4 is extreme skepticism - like many Atheists demonstrate. Stage 5 is when you can see that you were in a belief box (with previous either religion or skepticism) which was limiting and missing important aspects by themselves. You come to realize that those belief boxes couldn't be relied on as "literally true." Yet, you come to see they still have a lot of good, just more in symbolic form. You find ways to take the best and leave the rest - focusing on what's most important - loving God and others as yourself. Most people don't get to this stage until later in life - wisdom shows them that there's more to all limiting group-thoughts.

Still, I do agree that the higher stages are not as clear. This set of faith stages is pretty basic. There are others who have set forth more complex ideas of those higher stages, which involve confronting one's deep weaknesses, as I believe Jesus showed by example.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by EdGoble »

Thinker wrote: April 23rd, 2017, 8:50 am

First off, I'm not a leftist and do not appreciate your implication otherwise. I believe strongly in marriage between a man and woman, that all have a right to LIFE (not matter what age - gestationally) and I believe in conservative financial principles. Personally, I do not subscribe to one set of ideologies, but take issues on a case-by-case basis, thinking and praying about them myself rather than depending on a group to tell me what to think and feel.

I could be mistaken, but you seem to be still in stage 3 - where one's religion (be it Judaism, Mormonism, etc.) is the "literal" truth. You are seeing in concrete terms, rather than seeing that scriptures are not meant to be history or science books to be taken literally, but rather they are spiritual books. It was said of Jesus that he ONLY taught in parables. Parables are symbolic - NOT literal. Spirituality is not so much about FACTs, as it is about connecting to God and loving others as oneself. Is there just one way to connect to God, or to love? Of course not - it's not a literal truth - but an abstract truth which can be applied countless different ways. Still, you do seem able to see how it's not all-or-nothing (it's not polarized/bi-polar thinking) and therefore you can see some flaws, while still seeing good.

Stage 4 is extreme skepticism - like many Atheists demonstrate. Stage 5 is when you can see that you were in a belief box (with previous either religion or skepticism) which was limiting and missing important aspects by themselves. You come to realize that those belief boxes couldn't be relied on as "literally true." Yet, you come to see they still have a lot of good, just more in symbolic form. You find ways to take the best and leave the rest - focusing on what's most important - loving God and others as yourself. Most people don't get to this stage until later in life - wisdom shows them that there's more to all limiting group-thoughts.

Still, I do agree that the higher stages are not as clear. This set of faith stages is pretty basic. There are others who have set forth more complex ideas of those higher stages, which involve confronting one's deep weaknesses, as I believe Jesus showed by example.
You needn't try to obscure the fact that this model is mostly adhered to by leftist post mormons notwithstanding you are not one. Nobody said you were one just because you believe in the same model.

No, actually, I am in a stage parallel to your stage 5, which is not your stage 5. My stage has well eclipsed your stage 3. My stage 5 is not defined by your stage 5. You have no modeling of the stage to describe the one that I am in. That is my point. You are very mistaken to think that one can only progress beyond these other stages by adhering to your modeling. You are quite mistaken in your thinking.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

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EdGoble wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 12:08 pmYou needn't try to obscure the fact that this model is mostly adhered to by leftist post mormons notwithstanding you are not one.
Please provide research-based facts that verify this model is "leftist."
I believe you will not be able to.
No, actually, I am in a stage parallel to your stage 5, which is not your stage 5. My stage has well eclipsed your stage 3. My stage 5 is not defined by your stage 5. You have no modeling of the stage to describe the one that I am in. That is my point. You are very mistaken to think that one can only progress beyond these other stages by adhering to your modeling. You are quite mistaken in your thinking.
Please explain how you are in stage 5, and how you "know" I'm in stage 3.
Moreover, I sense that you think of it like a competitive game. It's not that at all - it's just a way to describe how one organizes one's beliefs. Really, even the highest stage - I'd consider not very different than the 1st stage - in the eternal perspective. It's like Moses and Socrates - both who learned a lot - acknowledged that of all there is to know, they still didn't know much. We're all children of God - not adults of God. :D

If you reread what I wrote, you will notice that I mentioned, " Still, I do agree that the higher stages are not as clear. This set of faith stages is pretty basic. There are others who have set forth more complex ideas of those higher stages, which involve confronting one's deep weaknesses, as I believe Jesus showed by example."

If you'd like more info. about those higher stages, let me know. I won't pretend to have come close to mastering them, but I've learned some principles - applying them is the challenging part.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by EdGoble »

Thinker wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 3:35 pm Please explain how you are in stage 5, and how you "know" I'm in stage 3.
Moreover, I sense that you think of it like a competitive game. It's not that at all - it's just a way to describe how one organizes one's beliefs. Really, even the highest stage - I'd consider not very different than the 1st stage - in the eternal perspective. It's like Moses and Socrates - both who learned a lot - acknowledged that of all there is to know, they still didn't know much. We're all children of God - not adults of God. :D

If you reread what I wrote, you will notice that I mentioned, " Still, I do agree that the higher stages are not as clear. This set of faith stages is pretty basic. There are others who have set forth more complex ideas of those higher stages, which involve confronting one's deep weaknesses, as I believe Jesus showed by example."

If you'd like more info. about those higher stages, let me know. I won't pretend to have come close to mastering them, but I've learned some principles - applying them is the challenging part.
Congratulations if you are in the standard stage 5. Respectfully, I think what I'm saying is that where I consider myself to be is that I have left the standard stage 3 long ago, and I stick with that, regardless of whatever else mahy exist. Furthermore, I don't know where you got the idea that I said you were in stage 3. When I said "your stage 3" I am referring to the standard stage 3. You have no authority over me to pronounce me to be in the standard stage 3, and this shows the lack of comprehensiveness here, that the only higher stage one could enter into is one without any kind of literal-ness left. I have no further comments. It sounds like you are really into this stuff and seem to find it useful. I don't find it useful, as it doesn't work for me, and so, I really have no emotion about it or care to say anything more on this thread. Have a great day.

I apologize that the earlier version of this message was less respectful, but I re-edited it, and I apologize

The reason this has a lack of comprehensiveness, is because it considers that a mystical type of stage 5 is the only kind of faith maturity that can be an advanced stage.
Last edited by EdGoble on May 4th, 2017, 8:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by BTH&T »

Thinker wrote: April 9th, 2017, 12:47 pm About 5 years ago, I had a faith crisis. It began when a respected, but blunt friend told me the church I was going to was bad in some ways. I sought to prove them wrong. I researched and came to realize some truth in the claim. It was really tough - like going through grief. Eventually, through a lot of tears, frustrations and with help from good people, I think I got to stage 5 in Fowler's Stages of Faith.........
I've come to appreciate religions, especially the one I was raised in (the lds church) and yet I also realize that they are not my God and that I can, as Joseph Smith suggested, search, ponder & pray and decide "which portion belongs to [me]." I try to take the best & leave the rest. Of course, part of me visits stages 3 & 4, but I'm trying to incorporate principles of stage 5 and eventually stage 6 (more Christlike).

At which stage do you see yourself and why?
What do you think about these stages?
First off let me say:
That my thoughts are just that, MINE.
I am flawed as all are, maybe more than most.
I am not making light of anyones personal crisis nor belief system.

Now for my view on this chart..it is nothing more than mans ideas trying to explain faith, faith in God.
Why on earth would anyone not go to the source? Scriptures give us the understanding and the Spirit confirms the truth.
We've all heard that our faith being as small as a mustard seed grows within us when we nurture it, until that perfect day when you have pure knowledge!

There is ONLY one way to return to where God our Father is, and that is through our Savior, Jesus Christ.

To me that is what this is all about...keep our eye on the goal.
All the other distractions are just that, distractions.

I think this pertains to this and other current threads that are active right now.
D&C Sec.50 . 1-25
Hearken, O ye elders of my church, and give ear to the voice of the living God; and attend to the words of wisdom which shall be given unto you, according as ye have asked and are agreed as touching the church, and the spirits which have gone abroad in the earth.
Behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world.
And also Satan hath sought to deceive you, that he might overthrow you.

Behold, I, the Lord, have looked upon you, and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name.
But blessed are they who are faithful and endure, whether in life or in death, for they shall inherit eternal life.
But wo unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites, for, thus saith the Lord, I will bring them to judgment.
Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed;
But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.
Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me.
And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand;
Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face.
Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand.
Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained?
To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.
And then received ye spirits which ye could not understand, and received them to be of God; and in this are ye justified?
Behold ye shall answer this question yourselves; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto you; he that is weak among you hereafter shall be made strong.

Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
If it be some other way it is not of God.
Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.
And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you;

So in answer to the question of faith, I am somewhere between a mustard seed and perfect knowledge!

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by iWriteStuff »

I prefer Elder Lund's charts:
faithhope1.jpg
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faithhope2.jpg
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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by EdGoble »

My apologies for my lack of respect in the previous versions of my messages. I have edited it and I apologize. I should have been more respectful and regret that.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by Thinker »

EdGoble wrote: May 4th, 2017, 8:20 am My apologies for my lack of respect in the previous versions of my messages. I have edited it and I apologize. I should have been more respectful and regret that.
It's ok, Ed. I apologize too. I think sometimes I'm too eager to try to get others to share my perspectives and passions.
This chart is just one of many - and not the end-all, but maybe for some (like me) may serve as a guide-post, to see a general bigger pictures of faith stages.
But again, I agree with you that the higher stages are missing a lot.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

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BTH&T wrote: May 3rd, 2017, 1:03 pmFirst off let me say:
That my thoughts are just that, MINE.
I am flawed as all are, maybe more than most.
I am not making light of anyones personal crisis nor belief system.
Thanks.
I admire your realization that your thoughts are subjective. Mine are too (as are everyone's really) which is kind of funny when you think about it.
Now for my view on this chart..it is nothing more than mans ideas trying to explain faith, faith in God.
Why on earth would anyone not go to the source? Scriptures give us the understanding and the Spirit confirms the truth.
Wait a minute... you're saying that this man's ideas about faith are less source than another's man's?
Why? Because many people said so?
We've all heard that our faith being as small as a mustard seed grows within us when we nurture it, until that perfect day when you have pure knowledge!
I agree so strongly and passionately!
And that is why I refuse to allow any religion or skepticism to keep me back from growing.
There is ONLY one way to return to where God our Father is, and that is through our Savior, Jesus Christ.
No offense, but I've heard this over & over and when I really thought about it, I found evil aspects.
Is God about killing - human sacrifice? No, not the God I believe in.
Is God about scapegoating - shifting blame? No. At-one-ment is not about making Jesus pay for my sins, it's about doing all I can (with God's help) to make at one anything I screw up. And I think if each took responsibility of self rather than shifting blame, we'd live in a better world.
Did Jesus ask to be worshiped? No, he warned against it.
D&C Sec.50 . 1-25
that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world.
And also Satan hath sought to deceive you, that he might overthrow you.

Behold, I, the Lord, have looked upon you, and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name.
I've wondered about churches that use Jesus's name to make money - and who don't share tithes with the poor, disobeying the law of tithing as well as the greatest commandments "which hang all of the law and the prophets."
But blessed are they who are faithful and endure, whether in life or in death, for they shall inherit eternal life.
What is eternal life? Is it static - dead - or is it resilient and alive? Is it vain repetitions that are only said because everyone's saying them - or is it realizing how one's missed the mark - and trying to regroup - being born again and again - spiritually?
Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
How can you discern between emotional reasoning and truth? Not easy, but important thing to try to master.
That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.
"Enlightenment" is basically that - light shed on darker areas. Each of us have subconscious (dark) aspects that cause us problem when we don't know about them - when they're dark. Some would have you misguided to believe that light is based on others - on what others say - and would have you subconsciously worship MEN - imperfect, fallible men (as all men are). But only God is worthy of worship because God is the source of all GOoD - all light, truth and love.

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Thinker
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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by Thinker »

freedomforall wrote: April 10th, 2017, 9:43 am
Matchmaker wrote: April 10th, 2017, 4:54 am I've known some individuals who reached the state of understanding what service to others and loving your fellow man really means. They help and serve others automatically like I automatically turn on my computer every morning. I want to be like them. I'm not there yet. I'm still selfish sometimes.

I limit my service to others because of the list of excuses I carry around with me :

I'm too tired.
I'm too stressed out.
I'm short on cash.
I helped them last month.
It's someone else's turn this week.
I have other plans that will conflict.
It's not my responsibility to help them, Let their family or Visiting Teachers do it.
Tell them to go talk to the Bishop.
I will call them back tomorrow.
My back and my feet hurt too much to do any cleaning.
I'm too old. Let the younger members do it.
I've got too many problems of my own to listen to theirs.
It's too far to drive.

I pray that Heavenly Father will help me change my behavior before it is too late.
We can also serve by being served. I was walking one dark night near a park. Upon coming near a homeless man I spoke to him for a while and then offered a few dollars. He hadn't asked me but I felt it to be a right thing to do. He, apparently, was so grateful that he knelt and rifled through a bag he was hauling around and pulled out a plastic toy like an action figure and handed it to me. I thanked him and went on my way. I still have the toy as a reminder of him serving me.
There are many ways to serve without a lack of time, money or effort being a handicap. A smile, a kind word or even a nice comment to a stranger, wherever we may be, often makes a tough day a better one for those we know not.
I really like that. Contributing is a need.
One of the best aspects of the church is how we serve one another. Church callings give opportunities to learn how to love well - the core meaning and application of Christ’s teachings.

Life’s purpose is to progress. We learn line upon line. The more we learn - the more we embrace light and truth (wherever it’s found), the happier we are and the more naturally and successfully we share the outpouring of love.

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marc
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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by marc »

Fascinating topic! Because of personal experiences, I believe I fit in stage 6 of that Fowler's chart. I saw Lund's chart shared by iWriteStuff, and because of personal experiences, I believe I am at Hope 4--Knowledge that one will become like God. I long for and ache for the day that I rend the veil and find myself in my Savior's embrace and that His glory bathes my countenance as I receive Him. I yearn for the fullness of joy.

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John Tavner
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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by John Tavner »

EdGoble wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 12:08 pm
Thinker wrote: April 23rd, 2017, 8:50 am

First off, I'm not a leftist and do not appreciate your implication otherwise. I believe strongly in marriage between a man and woman, that all have a right to LIFE (not matter what age - gestationally) and I believe in conservative financial principles. Personally, I do not subscribe to one set of ideologies, but take issues on a case-by-case basis, thinking and praying about them myself rather than depending on a group to tell me what to think and feel.

I could be mistaken, but you seem to be still in stage 3 - where one's religion (be it Judaism, Mormonism, etc.) is the "literal" truth. You are seeing in concrete terms, rather than seeing that scriptures are not meant to be history or science books to be taken literally, but rather they are spiritual books. It was said of Jesus that he ONLY taught in parables. Parables are symbolic - NOT literal. Spirituality is not so much about FACTs, as it is about connecting to God and loving others as oneself. Is there just one way to connect to God, or to love? Of course not - it's not a literal truth - but an abstract truth which can be applied countless different ways. Still, you do seem able to see how it's not all-or-nothing (it's not polarized/bi-polar thinking) and therefore you can see some flaws, while still seeing good.

Stage 4 is extreme skepticism - like many Atheists demonstrate. Stage 5 is when you can see that you were in a belief box (with previous either religion or skepticism) which was limiting and missing important aspects by themselves. You come to realize that those belief boxes couldn't be relied on as "literally true." Yet, you come to see they still have a lot of good, just more in symbolic form. You find ways to take the best and leave the rest - focusing on what's most important - loving God and others as yourself. Most people don't get to this stage until later in life - wisdom shows them that there's more to all limiting group-thoughts.

Still, I do agree that the higher stages are not as clear. This set of faith stages is pretty basic. There are others who have set forth more complex ideas of those higher stages, which involve confronting one's deep weaknesses, as I believe Jesus showed by example.
You needn't try to obscure the fact that this model is mostly adhered to by leftist post mormons notwithstanding you are not one. Nobody said you were one just because you believe in the same model.

No, actually, I am in a stage parallel to your stage 5, which is not your stage 5. My stage has well eclipsed your stage 3. My stage 5 is not defined by your stage 5. You have no modeling of the stage to describe the one that I am in. That is my point. You are very mistaken to think that one can only progress beyond these other stages by adhering to your modeling. You are quite mistaken in your thinking.
For what it's worth I also believe there is a stage parallel. Or perhaps redefining stage 5 to mean that there are both literal and figurative aspects to the scriptures. Soo many levels exist. In a sense some people like to use this to make themselves feel "superior." We area ll on different parts of the journey. As her stage 5 states though, there is truth in the literalness and the skepticism. We must be careful that we don't discount the literal aspect of the scriptures - even though at first the words might not mean what we think they mean on the surface. So that was a long way in saying yes I believe this model - like all models are something created to bind us. That is why I dislike labels - I am not the sum of that label, nor would I want to be defined as such, for to give that label power, then I lose what I have. The only people or things I will give my power to is God and Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by Thinker »

John Tavner wrote: November 25th, 2018, 2:22 pm
EdGoble wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 12:08 pm
Thinker wrote: April 23rd, 2017, 8:50 am

First off, I'm not a leftist and do not appreciate your implication otherwise. I believe strongly in marriage between a man and woman, that all have a right to LIFE (not matter what age - gestationally) and I believe in conservative financial principles. Personally, I do not subscribe to one set of ideologies, but take issues on a case-by-case basis, thinking and praying about them myself rather than depending on a group to tell me what to think and feel.

I could be mistaken, but you seem to be still in stage 3 - where one's religion (be it Judaism, Mormonism, etc.) is the "literal" truth. You are seeing in concrete terms, rather than seeing that scriptures are not meant to be history or science books to be taken literally, but rather they are spiritual books. It was said of Jesus that he ONLY taught in parables. Parables are symbolic - NOT literal. Spirituality is not so much about FACTs, as it is about connecting to God and loving others as oneself. Is there just one way to connect to God, or to love? Of course not - it's not a literal truth - but an abstract truth which can be applied countless different ways. Still, you do seem able to see how it's not all-or-nothing (it's not polarized/bi-polar thinking) and therefore you can see some flaws, while still seeing good.

Stage 4 is extreme skepticism - like many Atheists demonstrate. Stage 5 is when you can see that you were in a belief box (with previous either religion or skepticism) which was limiting and missing important aspects by themselves. You come to realize that those belief boxes couldn't be relied on as "literally true." Yet, you come to see they still have a lot of good, just more in symbolic form. You find ways to take the best and leave the rest - focusing on what's most important - loving God and others as yourself. Most people don't get to this stage until later in life - wisdom shows them that there's more to all limiting group-thoughts.

Still, I do agree that the higher stages are not as clear. This set of faith stages is pretty basic. There are others who have set forth more complex ideas of those higher stages, which involve confronting one's deep weaknesses, as I believe Jesus showed by example.
You needn't try to obscure the fact that this model is mostly adhered to by leftist post mormons notwithstanding you are not one. Nobody said you were one just because you believe in the same model.

No, actually, I am in a stage parallel to your stage 5, which is not your stage 5. My stage has well eclipsed your stage 3. My stage 5 is not defined by your stage 5. You have no modeling of the stage to describe the one that I am in. That is my point. You are very mistaken to think that one can only progress beyond these other stages by adhering to your modeling. You are quite mistaken in your thinking.
For what it's worth I also believe there is a stage parallel. Or perhaps redefining stage 5 to mean that there are both literal and figurative aspects to the scriptures. Soo many levels exist. In a sense some people like to use this to make themselves feel "superior." We area ll on different parts of the journey. As her stage 5 states though, there is truth in the literalness and the skepticism. We must be careful that we don't discount the literal aspect of the scriptures - even though at first the words might not mean what we think they mean on the surface. So that was a long way in saying yes I believe this model - like all models are something created to bind us. That is why I dislike labels - I am not the sum of that label, nor would I want to be defined as such, for to give that label power, then I lose what I have. The only people or things I will give my power to is God and Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost.
I appreciate your understanding and appreciation of some truth in this.
There is a temptation to use any excuse to feel superior - maybe to make up for feeling inferior in other ways. This happens in people who label themselves religious, atheist and spiritual. I’ve been reading some Taoist ideas which are similar to lds like those who exhault themselves will be brought low and those who humble themselves (be teachable) will be exhalted. I also don’t like labels. The only label I think is really applicable and helpful is “child of God.”

The reason I point out this general faith stage theory is to help people realize that we haven’t “arrived” - even if we think we have. There’s still much more to learn! And we do need to be careful not to be too quick in criticizing others. As it mentions in the chart, one stage may judge the next stage as backsliders when really they are digging deeper in the truth and are progressing.

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Re: Which Faith Stage?

Post by Trucker »

I have surprisingly become more conservative and traditional. I think I started fairly conservative but open-minded, then I had a terribly rough patch that caused me to tear down a lot of my beliefs and build it back up. The rebuilt version was much more progressive and liberal. But after being in that mindset for awhile, I started seeing how it didn't really work, and I've become much more conservative. For example, I used to not gay marriage because it seemed wrong and gross. I eventually thought, who cares, people can marry whoever they want. Then later I thought, wait that doesn't actually work. A society doesn't perpetuate with gay marriage.

So I've kind of been surprised to come more and more to the opinion that the old men have generally been right all along. Things that seemed to me pointless, old-fashioned rules do make sense, even though it may be hard to explain exactly why.

So I don't know where I am on the spectrum, I guess a 5 who's gone back to 3? Maybe 2? I know that sounds bad, and the descriptions make it sound like you get "stuck" at certain levels. But I feel like I've already gone through 1 - 6 and I think a lot of old traditions actually help over time. So then I tend to believe again the old stories again at face value. The trouble with this list is that the presupposes you can't just believe one set of rules, that to be enlightened means to see paradoxes and universal truth everywhere. So if you do believe, you are "stuck" in your development. I'm not sure anymore.

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