Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

[Silver Pie]

This is the most logical, most balanced post I've seen regarding energy healing. Not only on this thread, but on all the posts on energy healing that I've read here over the years.

Honestly, I'm very confused about what the exact issue is with energy healing. It seems like a forum member will give a legitimate answer to a concern and then someone moves to the next problem. Then that problem gets answered and the person returns to the original concern that was already resolved. I see no logical reasoning happening. For example:
Concern 1: Energy healers aren't using lds ordained priesthood
Resolution: Anyone can heal, you don't need lds ordained priesthood

Concern 2: Satan is healing in order to deceive
Resolution: Satan is not capable of healing so if someone is healed, it's not Satan that did it

Concern 3: Energy healers accept money while at the same time attributing the healing to God's power
Resolution: All the General Authorities of the church receive a stipend/living allowance so that they can dedicate their lives to doing God's work, too. GA's have to support their families, so do energy healers

Concern 4: Energy healers are wierd - they use crystals and magnets, etc
Resolution: Joseph Smith used rocks, divining rods, etc. Moses used a staff, Lehi had a liahona; LDS use bread and water and olive oil

Concern 5: People are wasting their money. Energy healing is all based on the placebo effect
Resolution: You make it sound like the placebo effect is a bad thing. The placebo effect is wonderful - the power of the mind over the body proves that if we can get our minds to believe, then the body will manifest it. Part of energy healing is teaching people how to use their minds to heal their bodies, aka the placebo effect. This is a good thing.

Concern 6: Energy healing is all "New Age." It's a sign of people being deceived in the last days
Resolution: There is nothing new about energy healing. Chinese medicine and the majority of indigenous peoples across the world have believed that in order to be healed physically, you must treat the spirit, too. Christ often forgave a person's sins before physically healing them. He treated both the spirit and the body.
The real "New Age" is going to a conventional doctor who disregards the spirit completely and only treats the physical. Their idea that the spirit/emotions have no impact on the physical body just reinforces atheistic ideals, while on the other hand, energy healing completely acknowledges the necessity of God in healing.

disclosure: I'm not saying that I support all forms of energy healing; there are a lot of different forms since it has been around for thousands of years and each culture has its own version. But the concerns that I see expressed here on the forum are not, imo, based on sound reasoning. They seem to be more rooted in fear and a lack of information.

Obviously, if you go to an energy healer and the spirit warns you to leave, then you should leave. That doesn't mean that ALL energy healing is inherently evil; it just means that particular situation was wrong for you at that time. If you don't feel comfortable with EH, then avoid it. But others may very well find that their path to God leads them through EH for a time. It is a very ancient practice and has a lot of pearls of wisdom for those who are able to discern between truth and error.

[Thinker]

Priestcraft. I think that word means something different than what many here think it means. I have no problems with paying anyone for it, nor getting paid for it. Why?

Priestcraft: "Men (or women) preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/priestcraft?lang=eng
This can be charging for the placebo effect, selling books just to capitalize on one's religious fame, charging for worthiness, etc.
You can call it "flucaprazi" - "what's in a name - a rose by any other name will smell as sweet." Names don't change what it is.
If you put someone under and don't scrape their knee, and then you scrape someone else's knee--and both have the same effect (you have heard of this study, right?)--you shouldn't charge for the first, but you can charge tens of thousands for the second?
So you believe the general authorities and the great majority of religious books, 3/4 of Deseret Books, EFY presenters, and others are guilty of priestcraft?
Charging for worthiness, I can accept.
If the names don't change what it is, what is "it"?

I believe that each of us have the same ability to heal ourselves & one another. Why charge money to someone for something they can do themselves? It's called "free market" and "opportunity cost". I'm pretty all of us here CAN do lots of things ourselves that we pay others to do. Do you buy vegetables at the store? Couldn't you grow them yourself? Etc.

And if you REALLY care and want to heal, you'd do it from the outpouring love of your heart - as Jesus did - rather than set up shop in a temple (so to speak). I won't condemn people for buying crystals or paying for "worthiness" but I just hope they come to realize that all that money & effort would be better spent and that the real healing influence they're seeking is always available straight from God and the only charge is a broken heart & a contrite spirit.
If you really cared about others and want to help them, you will work for free. Straight up: Is that what you did? Or did you get money for your time, effort, learning, capabilities and abilities, showing up, and providing something in exchange for money?
Where is the beating a dead, dead, dead horse emoji? If it's available straight from God, HAVE YOU SEEN A DOCTOR, DENTIST, THERAPIST, COUNSELOR, OR ANY SIMILAR? If you have, please drop this line of "reasoning".

Also, if there were any scientific proof that energy healing worked independent of the placebo effect - that the healer was actually doing something healing (as is the case of Doctors, and some in Chinese Medicine), then fees would be appropriate. But generally, research shows that they work based on placebo effect - the individual's beliefs. And a plethora of people can and do testify of that fact!
Seriously, doctors heal?? The great majority of doctors don't heal, they just ignorantly treat and/or money-grab.
How come you wrote "as in the case of doctors, and SOME in Chinese Medicine?

And this is a good reminder of the importance of managing our own thoughts, feelings, motives - & ultimately habits.
Placebo effect is the first variable the FDA uses to test meds - it's powerful! Have it work FOR you, rather than against you: http://www.vitalaffirmations.com/health ... Ouif9Lyu70

Affirmations like that aren't very useful; in fact, studies (real ones) show they often hinder instead of help. If you are going to use affirmations--which are not placebos--you should put them in question form. ;)

It's true that we often will pay others for what we could (but don't want to) do. But that is not a basis of priestcraft.
Charging for spirituality is.

I also agree that many doctors make things worse by overprescribing meds with lists of side effects, but some doctors do help -they're "practicing" and they did go to medical school, so ideally, they know and can help with more than most of us, particularly specialists.

I have researched affirmations and it's true they sometimes hinder if you try to force yourself to believe something that you KNOW and feel is untrue, but they can help when you FEEL to some degree that they are at least partially true and you have belief/hope that they can become more true. It's essentially what we do all day and subconsciously night - talk to ourselves in our thoughts - affirmations are ideally applied in a way to more consciously and productively do that. Questions can help if they're the right ones. But what helps more than anything (at least what I've researched) is when the belief is combined with physiological changes (feeling it).

The bottom line is that it is wrong to manipulate and take advantage of someone's belief in God (or you) to make them pay YOU money for what their own mind (through God) does. It's legal to put up a seminar about the power of Dumbo feathers (or the like) & make a lot of money doing it, but it's not ethical, IMO.

BTW, I do believe that each of us have (are) energy - and I've even taught my kids what I learned about energy healing. I learned about it during yoga - the after-work-out meditations. The teacher didn't have to teach us about it - but did so and I appreciated it. She was getting paid for yoga, but not energy healing and she was teaching us to work with it ourselves.

[butterfly]

Honestly, I'm very confused about what the exact issue is with energy healing. It seems like a forum member will give a legitimate answer to a concern and then someone moves to the next problem. Then that problem gets answered and the person returns to the original concern that was already resolved. I see no logical reasoning happening.

I wrote some related stuff once, this could potentially be of help:
Gifts & Spiritual Experiences of God vs Devil (similarities)
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15098&p=163216

Thanks for this. I don't necessarily have the same conclusions you do, but the dilemma is a lot clearer now.

If some people have wonderful experiences and others have frightening ones, then the problem isn't energy healing itself. It could be what form of EH is being done or it may be the individual themselves.

We know that the powers of heaven can only be handled through principles of righteousness. So maybe if people are not in this state, then they will have scary experiences because they aren't accessing the powers of heaven.

We are told to ask, seek, and knock. I think if we decide to just wait for the Lord to give us a spiritual experience instead of actively seeking it, then we will be slowing down our progression. Maybe some people would feel more comfortable asking God for instruction as to which type of spiritual experience they would benefit from seeking first.

[butterfly]

Concern 2: Satan is healing in order to deceive
Resolution: Satan is not capable of healing so if someone is healed, it's not Satan that did it

Concern 3: Energy healers accept money while at the same time attributing the healing to God's power
Resolution: All the General Authorities of the church receive a stipend/living allowance so that they can dedicate their lives to doing God's work, too. GA's have to support their families, so do energy healers

Regarding Concern 2, consider the words of Brigham Young.

Brigham Young -

Persons may see miracles performed; may see the sick healed, the eyes of the blind opened, the lame made to leap, and even the dead raised, and may acknowledge that it is all done by the power of God, but will all this enable them to discern whether it is the power of God or not? No, it will not. They must have the spirit by which the dead are raised, by which the sick are healed, and the eyes of the blind opened, or they cannot tell whether it is done by the power of God or the power of the devil, or whether there is a mist over their own eyes.

Have any of this congregation ever seen, witnessed, or had any knowledge of such a thing? Yes. Have the sick been healed? Yes, both by the power of God and by the power of the devil. We say that we can witness that the power of God has healed the sick. Are there individuals here who have seen the sick healed when they did not know by what power they were healed? Yes, a great many. Mesmerism has healed many persons in the world. Do you know whether that works by the power of God, or by the power of the devil? You do not, unless you have the light of revelation. You may believe the testimony of others, but unless you get a revelation for yourselves, you do not know whether it is by the power of God or by the power of the devil.

I know of many whom Mesmerism has led out of this Church; they would see the sick healed, and attribute it to the power of God; would fall under its influence, embrace and practice it, and thus give the devil power over them to lead them out of the kingdom of God. They could not tell whether it was the power of God or the power of the devil. What is the reason? They had not the light of revelation within them; they had not the knowledge of God. Are you not aware how easily we may be deceived?

Regarding Concern 3, consider this scripture.

62 For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority.

I apologize if you already read this post that I'm repeating from earlier in this thread, but when I went to the scriptures to find warnings about Satan having the ability to heal, this is what I found: (btw, if you know of anything scriptural that warns us about Satan healing, pls let me know. I had never considered this idea before and am open to being wrong; I can't figure out where BY got this idea, though).

"It seems that some people are afraid that Satan will deceive them by performing a healing.
How does a healing occur?
1st- healing is a gift of the spirit. Satan does not possess gifts of the spirit.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

2nd-Jesus said that Satan would not fight against himself. So when Jesus healed and the scribes said He did it by the power of Satan, Jesus said: "how can Satan cast out Satan?"

3rd-Jesus heals a crippled woman and says that it was Satan who was making her sick:
11 ¶ And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

Then the church leaders got upset that Jesus had healed on the sabbath, so Jesus replies:

16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

So if Satan can't cast out Satan, and if Satan makes us sick, then can Satan heal us?

No, he can't. Healing is a gift of the spirit.
It is done by faith, according to Moroni 7:37 says it is by faith that miracles are wrought;...if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief,

Mormon teaches that you know a people are iniquitous when there are NOT healings:

13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.

I cannot find any scriptures that tell us to beware the healings of Satan.
This verse shows healing is evidence of having been visited by God's spirit:
22 And as many as had devils cast out from them, and were healed of their sicknesses and their infirmities, did truly manifest unto the people that they had been wrought upon by the Spirit of God, and had been healed; and they did show forth signs also and did do some miracles among the people.

Satan does not heal. If someone is healing, no matter their profession or belief system, it is being accomplished by the spirit of God."

[butterfly]

Concern 3: Energy healers accept money while at the same time attributing the healing to God's power
Resolution: All the General Authorities of the church receive a stipend/living allowance so that they can dedicate their lives to doing God's work, too. GA's have to support their families, so do energy healers

Regarding Concern 3, consider this scripture.

62 For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority.

I'm not seeing the connection with priest craft and taking the Lord's name in vain.
Priest craft is using the things of God in order to be better than others, above them in some way; it's usually associated with money but can correspond to power or fame, too.

Taking the Lord's name in vain is saying "God told me with His own voice that you should be the R.S. president" when God said no such thing, the bishop just wants to coerce you into a calling.

But on the subject of priest craft, in order for energy healers (or anyone) to actually access and use God's power, the practitioner must operate under the principles of righteousness. If they are trying to engage in priest craft, then they will not have the power to heal.

Therefore, there can be no real priest craft in this situation because as soon as thoughts of power, money, and fame enter their hearts, they are cut off from God's power. So what they charge you would be for whatever formal training they've received and it would have nothing to do with God's power to heal.

[Sarah]

Concern 2: Satan is healing in order to deceive
Resolution: Satan is not capable of healing so if someone is healed, it's not Satan that did it

Concern 3: Energy healers accept money while at the same time attributing the healing to God's power
Resolution: All the General Authorities of the church receive a stipend/living allowance so that they can dedicate their lives to doing God's work, too. GA's have to support their families, so do energy healers

Regarding Concern 2, consider the words of Brigham Young.

Brigham Young -

Persons may see miracles performed; may see the sick healed, the eyes of the blind opened, the lame made to leap, and even the dead raised, and may acknowledge that it is all done by the power of God, but will all this enable them to discern whether it is the power of God or not? No, it will not. They must have the spirit by which the dead are raised, by which the sick are healed, and the eyes of the blind opened, or they cannot tell whether it is done by the power of God or the power of the devil, or whether there is a mist over their own eyes.

Have any of this congregation ever seen, witnessed, or had any knowledge of such a thing? Yes. Have the sick been healed? Yes, both by the power of God and by the power of the devil. We say that we can witness that the power of God has healed the sick. Are there individuals here who have seen the sick healed when they did not know by what power they were healed? Yes, a great many. Mesmerism has healed many persons in the world. Do you know whether that works by the power of God, or by the power of the devil? You do not, unless you have the light of revelation. You may believe the testimony of others, but unless you get a revelation for yourselves, you do not know whether it is by the power of God or by the power of the devil.

I know of many whom Mesmerism has led out of this Church; they would see the sick healed, and attribute it to the power of God; would fall under its influence, embrace and practice it, and thus give the devil power over them to lead them out of the kingdom of God. They could not tell whether it was the power of God or the power of the devil. What is the reason? They had not the light of revelation within them; they had not the knowledge of God. Are you not aware how easily we may be deceived?

Regarding Concern 3, consider this scripture.

62 For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority.

I apologize if you already read this post that I'm repeating from earlier in this thread, but when I went to the scriptures to find warnings about Satan having the ability to heal, this is what I found: (btw, if you know of anything scriptural that warns us about Satan healing, pls let me know. I had never considered this idea before and am open to being wrong; I can't figure out where BY got this idea, though).

"It seems that some people are afraid that Satan will deceive them by performing a healing.
How does a healing occur?
1st- healing is a gift of the spirit. Satan does not possess gifts of the spirit.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

2nd-Jesus said that Satan would not fight against himself. So when Jesus healed and the scribes said He did it by the power of Satan, Jesus said: "how can Satan cast out Satan?"

3rd-Jesus heals a crippled woman and says that it was Satan who was making her sick:
11 ¶ And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

Then the church leaders got upset that Jesus had healed on the sabbath, so Jesus replies:

16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

So if Satan can't cast out Satan, and if Satan makes us sick, then can Satan heal us?

No, he can't. Healing is a gift of the spirit.
It is done by faith, according to Moroni 7:37 says it is by faith that miracles are wrought;...if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief,

Mormon teaches that you know a people are iniquitous when there are NOT healings:

13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.

I cannot find any scriptures that tell us to beware the healings of Satan.
This verse shows healing is evidence of having been visited by God's spirit:
22 And as many as had devils cast out from them, and were healed of their sicknesses and their infirmities, did truly manifest unto the people that they had been wrought upon by the Spirit of God, and had been healed; and they did show forth signs also and did do some miracles among the people.

Satan does not heal. If someone is healing, no matter their profession or belief system, it is being accomplished by the spirit of God."

Perhaps we need to define what it really means to be "healed." From what little I've read about energy healing, the person's symptoms might go away for awhile but often return.

Yes, healing is a gift of the spirit, but think about every other gift of the spirit and how there is a evil counterfeit to manifesting that gift. And if indeed Satan is the one afflicting us with disease in some cases, it makes perfect sense to me that in order to deceive and have someone trust in his power, he would stop afflicting that individual to make them have faith in the words, signs, and behaviors associated with tapping into his power.

[Sarah]

Concern 3: Energy healers accept money while at the same time attributing the healing to God's power
Resolution: All the General Authorities of the church receive a stipend/living allowance so that they can dedicate their lives to doing God's work, too. GA's have to support their families, so do energy healers

Regarding Concern 3, consider this scripture.

62 For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority.

I'm not seeing the connection with priest craft and taking the Lord's name in vain.
Priest craft is using the things of God in order to be better than others, above them in some way; it's usually associated with money but can correspond to power or fame, too.

Taking the Lord's name in vain is saying "God told me with His own voice that you should be the R.S. president" when God said no such thing, the bishop just wants to coerce you into a calling.

But on the subject of priest craft, in order for energy healers (or anyone) to actually access and use God's power, the practitioner must operate under the principles of righteousness. If they are trying to engage in priest craft, then they will not have the power to heal.

Therefore, there can be no real priest craft in this situation because as soon as thoughts of power, money, and fame enter their hearts, they are cut off from God's power. So what they charge you would be for whatever formal training they've received and it would have nothing to do with God's power to heal.

This verse isn't necessarily talking about Priestcraft, or what we usually think of as Priestcraft. Nor must it be associated with unrighteous dominion. We all likely engage in taking the Lord's name in vain without realizing the seriousness of our transgression, and I think that is what this verse was referring to, in chastising some of these early brethren for being careless in how they used His name. Any time you invoke the Lord's name without proper authority or his authorization, or without the right intent or motivation, you are taking the Lord's name in vain. It could be teaching in His name false doctrine for example. I just think this a broad command that should apply to healing in the name of Christ when the person does not have authorization from the Lord and his spirit, and when that person has access to men in Priesthood offices, but chooses to engage in using Christ's name in an unauthorized way. We women need to give men the opportunity to do this and rely on our own faith to be healed. We also need to rely on obeying the W of W. and using wisdom in taking care of our bodies.

[AI2.0]

Perhaps we need to define what it really means to be "healed." From what little I've read about energy healing, the person's symptoms might go away for awhile but often return.

Yes, healing is a gift of the spirit, but think about every other gift of the spirit and how there is a evil counterfeit to manifesting that gift. And if indeed Satan is the one afflicting us with disease in some cases, it makes perfect sense to me that in order to deceive and have someone trust in his power, he would stop afflicting that individual to make them have faith in the words, signs, and behaviors associated with tapping into his power.

As you explained, defining what we mean by healing is important. Butterfly's comments are more round about thinking that muddies spiritual waters and understanding IMO. I don't think any of us would be comfortable making a statement like 'Satan can heal'. Satan can obstruct, he can destroy, belittle, damage, etc, and he can deceive. Satan has no interest in doing any good, but there's no question that he can imitate what seems to be good. He inspires people to set up churches, supposedly to worship God, but they are to draw people away from God. He inspires people to pursue things that might look good on the outside, but in fact, will destroy them morally or spiritually. So, I think we need to avoid limiting what we think Satan is capable of, if we do, we run the risk of being deceived by him, because we underestimate him. If we try to concentrate our thoughts into a simple statement like; 'Satan can't heal', then we come to the erroneous conclusion that all the 'healings' we observe come from God, since Satan isn't capable of doing that. If we trust this logic, we will be wrong. We know that Revelation warns us that the Anti christ will perform great miracles. Are these miracles all going to be evil things? Of course not, they will look wondrous and appealing, they will imitate 'good' because while many people are foolish, they aren't all idiots-- who in their right mind wants to worship a being that only makes them miserable with his miracles and wonders? He will seem like a Savior and will use his power to impress and gain followers. Satan is the great imitator, he has power, he gives 'gifts' too...we must be discerning.

Elder Hales spoke about the gifts of the spirit and reminded us that they can be imitated by Satan. In this talk, he gives wise counsel for those seeking to be healed and how they ought to be careful and discerning: I think those seeking healing through Energy practitioners should consider his advice--that is, if they are mainstream, active LDS. If they no longer believe or have joined a break off sect, they probably won't care what Elder Hales had to say on the subject and maybe that's why Energy Healing was seen as a sort of gate way drug to Denver Snuffer. If a person is listening to other 'voices', they are in danger of being deceived by false spirits and they will also put themselves in danger falling for practices which are imitations of God's true power.

How does one distinguish between manifestations of the Spirit and counterfeits? One might ask these questions:

Is the manifestation edifying? Spiritual gifts are not given to satisfy one’s lusts or curiosities, but are given as a blessing and benefit to those who love God and keep His commandments.

In acts of healing, does the healer follow the divinely established procedures? That is, does he do it in the manner in which Jesus did, seeking faith and purity of heart and then anointing with oil?

Has the worker of miracles received the gift of the Holy Ghost himself through the prescribed ordinances? One cannot invoke the blessings of heaven without having received the gifts and the right or authority to act in His name.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/gift ... t?lang=eng

[JohnnyL]

If they heal by faith, can their results be replicated by people who aren't trained in what they do?

Obviously if it is JUST faith in Christ, there is no reason for training.

Likely, you misunderstood/ misunderstand them, or they misunderstand what they do.

However, as many people have linked EH all together, it's a lie to use part of one group and apply it generally to all others, etc. You realize that, don't you?

[JohnnyL]

Perhaps we need to define what it really means to be "healed." From what little I've read about energy healing, the person's symptoms might go away for awhile but often return.

Yes, healing is a gift of the spirit, but think about every other gift of the spirit and how there is a evil counterfeit to manifesting that gift. And if indeed Satan is the one afflicting us with disease in some cases, it makes perfect sense to me that in order to deceive and have someone trust in his power, he would stop afflicting that individual to make them have faith in the words, signs, and behaviors associated with tapping into his power.

As you explained, defining what we mean by healing is important. Butterfly's comments are more round about thinking that muddies spiritual waters and understanding IMO. I don't think any of us would be comfortable making a statement like 'Satan can heal'. Satan can obstruct, he can destroy, belittle, damage, etc, and he can deceive. Satan has no interest in doing any good, but there's no question that he can imitate what seems to be good. He inspires people to set up churches, supposedly to worship God, but they are to draw people away from God.
I wonder about that. I have read many people who have set up churches because they felt called to do it, obviously doing much good to bring others closer to God. No doubt some have done so for priestcraft or other reasons, and yes, a few led by evil spirits.

He inspires people to pursue things that might look good on the outside, but in fact, will destroy them morally or spiritually. So, I think we need to avoid limiting what we think Satan is capable of, if we do, we run the risk of being deceived by him, because we underestimate him. If we try to concentrate our thoughts into a simple statement like; 'Satan can't heal', then we come to the erroneous conclusion that all the 'healings' we observe come from God, since Satan isn't capable of doing that. If we trust this logic, we will be wrong. We know that Revelation warns us that the Anti christ will perform great miracles. Are these miracles all going to be evil things? Of course not, they will look wondrous and appealing, they will imitate 'good' because while many people are foolish, they aren't all idiots-- who in their right mind wants to worship a being that only makes them miserable with his miracles and wonders? He will seem like a Savior and will use his power to impress and gain followers. Satan is the great imitator, he has power, he gives 'gifts' too...we must be discerning.
Good points, also.

Elder Hales spoke about the gifts of the spirit and reminded us that they can be imitated by Satan. In this talk, he gives wise counsel for those seeking to be healed and how they ought to be careful and discerning: I think those seeking healing through Energy practitioners should consider his advice--that is, if they are mainstream, active LDS. If they no longer believe or have joined a break off sect, they probably won't care what Elder Hales had to say on the subject and maybe that's why Energy Healing was seen as a sort of gate way drug to Denver Snuffer. If a person is listening to other 'voices', they are in danger of being deceived by false spirits and they will also put themselves in danger falling for practices which are imitations of God's true power.

How does one distinguish between manifestations of the Spirit and counterfeits? One might ask these questions:

Is the manifestation edifying? Spiritual gifts are not given to satisfy one’s lusts or curiosities, but are given as a blessing and benefit to those who love God and keep His commandments.

In acts of healing, does the healer follow the divinely established procedures? That is, does he do it in the manner in which Jesus did, seeking faith and purity of heart and then anointing with oil?

Has the worker of miracles received the gift of the Holy Ghost himself through the prescribed ordinances? One cannot invoke the blessings of heaven without having received the gifts and the right or authority to act in His name.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/gift ... t?lang=eng

I see that Elder Hales is talking about anointing with oil, prescribed ordinances, using the HG or priesthood. I don't understand what he means.

And it goes back to the problem of doctors et. al., who also do not perform in the way that Elder Hales describes. If you want to condemn EH with this, you must also condemn any other "healers", including doctors et. al.

I still don't see why the double standard and special pleading for "Western", "scientific", "accepted" healings being perfectly fine, but EH not. Could anyone give a thoughtful, clear response on this?

[Sarah]

Perhaps we need to define what it really means to be "healed." From what little I've read about energy healing, the person's symptoms might go away for awhile but often return.

Yes, healing is a gift of the spirit, but think about every other gift of the spirit and how there is a evil counterfeit to manifesting that gift. And if indeed Satan is the one afflicting us with disease in some cases, it makes perfect sense to me that in order to deceive and have someone trust in his power, he would stop afflicting that individual to make them have faith in the words, signs, and behaviors associated with tapping into his power.

As you explained, defining what we mean by healing is important. Butterfly's comments are more round about thinking that muddies spiritual waters and understanding IMO. I don't think any of us would be comfortable making a statement like 'Satan can heal'. Satan can obstruct, he can destroy, belittle, damage, etc, and he can deceive. Satan has no interest in doing any good, but there's no question that he can imitate what seems to be good. He inspires people to set up churches, supposedly to worship God, but they are to draw people away from God.
I wonder about that. I have read many people who have set up churches because they felt called to do it, obviously doing much good to bring others closer to God. No doubt some have done so for priestcraft or other reasons, and yes, a few led by evil spirits.

He inspires people to pursue things that might look good on the outside, but in fact, will destroy them morally or spiritually. So, I think we need to avoid limiting what we think Satan is capable of, if we do, we run the risk of being deceived by him, because we underestimate him. If we try to concentrate our thoughts into a simple statement like; 'Satan can't heal', then we come to the erroneous conclusion that all the 'healings' we observe come from God, since Satan isn't capable of doing that. If we trust this logic, we will be wrong. We know that Revelation warns us that the Anti christ will perform great miracles. Are these miracles all going to be evil things? Of course not, they will look wondrous and appealing, they will imitate 'good' because while many people are foolish, they aren't all idiots-- who in their right mind wants to worship a being that only makes them miserable with his miracles and wonders? He will seem like a Savior and will use his power to impress and gain followers. Satan is the great imitator, he has power, he gives 'gifts' too...we must be discerning.
Good points, also.

Elder Hales spoke about the gifts of the spirit and reminded us that they can be imitated by Satan. In this talk, he gives wise counsel for those seeking to be healed and how they ought to be careful and discerning: I think those seeking healing through Energy practitioners should consider his advice--that is, if they are mainstream, active LDS. If they no longer believe or have joined a break off sect, they probably won't care what Elder Hales had to say on the subject and maybe that's why Energy Healing was seen as a sort of gate way drug to Denver Snuffer. If a person is listening to other 'voices', they are in danger of being deceived by false spirits and they will also put themselves in danger falling for practices which are imitations of God's true power.

How does one distinguish between manifestations of the Spirit and counterfeits? One might ask these questions:

Is the manifestation edifying? Spiritual gifts are not given to satisfy one’s lusts or curiosities, but are given as a blessing and benefit to those who love God and keep His commandments.

In acts of healing, does the healer follow the divinely established procedures? That is, does he do it in the manner in which Jesus did, seeking faith and purity of heart and then anointing with oil?

Has the worker of miracles received the gift of the Holy Ghost himself through the prescribed ordinances? One cannot invoke the blessings of heaven without having received the gifts and the right or authority to act in His name.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/gift ... t?lang=eng

I see that Elder Hales is talking about anointing with oil, prescribed ordinances, using the HG or priesthood. I don't understand what he means.

And it goes back to the problem of doctors et. al., who also do not perform in the way that Elder Hales describes. If you want to condemn EH with this, you must also condemn any other "healers", including doctors et. al.

I still don't see why the double standard and special pleading for "Western", "scientific", "accepted" healings being perfectly fine, but EH not. Could anyone give a thoughtful, clear response on this?

I think going to the doctor and partaking of man-made medicines is also a dangerous risk. Most medication only relieves symptoms and does not heal the underlying condition. Both J.S. and B.Y. counseled the saints to rely on faith and herbs and mild food. But obviously wisdom should be heeded when seeking out any help. Antibiotics no doubt are a blessing from the Lord to mankind. And I also think there is a difference in seeking medical help for surgery and stitches, than going to the doctor to receive prescription medication for a condition that could be corrected if the body had a better diet.

But really I don't see how you can compare the two. Energy Healers are relying on invoking the name of Christ in some cases, and commanding the body to do certain things. This is their skill rather than a doctor who has a different skill set related to manipulating the body physically. It seems to me that the skill of Energy Healers is to invoke Satan's power to change the state of the body.

[AI2.0]

If they heal by faith, can their results be replicated by people who aren't trained in what they do?

Obviously if it is JUST faith in Christ, there is no reason for training.

Likely, you misunderstood/ misunderstand them, or they misunderstand what they do.

However, as many people have linked EH all together, it's a lie to use part of one group and apply it generally to all others, etc. You realize that, don't you?

But DO they heal by faith? Can miracles be performed through means other than faith?

Yes, they can. What we would call Miracles (things that are unexplained) can and are performed through other means--Pagans and mystics can also perform miracles. False prophets can perform miracles, remember that the Anti-Christ will show miracles and of course, there is the example of the Priests of Pharoah who performed miracles that imitated Moses'.

Is it not true that Energy healing is not always done in a 'christ centered' manner. It is also done by Energy healers who profess no belief in christ. I assume they still have success at their craft, but the power they claim, they would not attribute to faith, since they don't profess faith in christ. If Energy healing really works, then the Christ centered ones should have the same results as the ones which are secular, right? Since you believe the training in Energy healing is what works, not the faith of the individual.

So obviously, it has nothing to do with faith, since faith is not required--unless you say that non Christ centered energy healing doesn't work. Then one has to ask if it 'works' or is it the placebo effect that makes it seem to the patient that it's working.

One has to wonder, why would some Energy healers use Christ as a selling point in their healing, if faith isn't important or necessary to practice Energy healing?

[AI2.0]

Perhaps we need to define what it really means to be "healed." From what little I've read about energy healing, the person's symptoms might go away for awhile but often return.

Yes, healing is a gift of the spirit, but think about every other gift of the spirit and how there is a evil counterfeit to manifesting that gift. And if indeed Satan is the one afflicting us with disease in some cases, it makes perfect sense to me that in order to deceive and have someone trust in his power, he would stop afflicting that individual to make them have faith in the words, signs, and behaviors associated with tapping into his power.

As you explained, defining what we mean by healing is important. Butterfly's comments are more round about thinking that muddies spiritual waters and understanding IMO. I don't think any of us would be comfortable making a statement like 'Satan can heal'. Satan can obstruct, he can destroy, belittle, damage, etc, and he can deceive. Satan has no interest in doing any good, but there's no question that he can imitate what seems to be good. He inspires people to set up churches, supposedly to worship God, but they are to draw people away from God.
I wonder about that. I have read many people who have set up churches because they felt called to do it, obviously doing much good to bring others closer to God. No doubt some have done so for priestcraft or other reasons, and yes, a few led by evil spirits.

The Lord said that our church is the 'only true and living church on the earth', so if someone sets up another one, that's wrong.
It's wrong to set up a competing church to the Lord's church, regardless of good intentions.

He inspires people to pursue things that might look good on the outside, but in fact, will destroy them morally or spiritually. So, I think we need to avoid limiting what we think Satan is capable of, if we do, we run the risk of being deceived by him, because we underestimate him. If we try to concentrate our thoughts into a simple statement like; 'Satan can't heal', then we come to the erroneous conclusion that all the 'healings' we observe come from God, since Satan isn't capable of doing that. If we trust this logic, we will be wrong. We know that Revelation warns us that the Anti christ will perform great miracles. Are these miracles all going to be evil things? Of course not, they will look wondrous and appealing, they will imitate 'good' because while many people are foolish, they aren't all idiots-- who in their right mind wants to worship a being that only makes them miserable with his miracles and wonders? He will seem like a Savior and will use his power to impress and gain followers. Satan is the great imitator, he has power, he gives 'gifts' too...we must be discerning.
Good points, also.

Elder Hales spoke about the gifts of the spirit and reminded us that they can be imitated by Satan. In this talk, he gives wise counsel for those seeking to be healed and how they ought to be careful and discerning: I think those seeking healing through Energy practitioners should consider his advice--that is, if they are mainstream, active LDS. If they no longer believe or have joined a break off sect, they probably won't care what Elder Hales had to say on the subject and maybe that's why Energy Healing was seen as a sort of gate way drug to Denver Snuffer. If a person is listening to other 'voices', they are in danger of being deceived by false spirits and they will also put themselves in danger falling for practices which are imitations of God's true power.

How does one distinguish between manifestations of the Spirit and counterfeits? One might ask these questions:

Is the manifestation edifying? Spiritual gifts are not given to satisfy one’s lusts or curiosities, but are given as a blessing and benefit to those who love God and keep His commandments.

In acts of healing, does the healer follow the divinely established procedures? That is, does he do it in the manner in which Jesus did, seeking faith and purity of heart and then anointing with oil?

Has the worker of miracles received the gift of the Holy Ghost himself through the prescribed ordinances? One cannot invoke the blessings of heaven without having received the gifts and the right or authority to act in His name.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/gift ... t?lang=eng

I see that Elder Hales is talking about anointing with oil, prescribed ordinances, using the HG or priesthood. I don't understand what he means.

He means the proper way to give blessings; two priesthood holders, one anoints with consecrated oil, one seals and pronounces the blessing, using Melchizedek priesthood and through the Holy ghost. Elder Hales would think it inappropriate to give a blessing in any other way, if this is available.

And it goes back to the problem of doctors et. al., who also do not perform in the way that Elder Hales describes. If you want to condemn EH with this, you must also condemn any other "healers", including doctors et. al. Modern medicine doesn't have it's origins in the Occult. Modern medicine NEVER uses God's/Christ's power or faith to heal, so why would we condemn Medical doctors? They aren't practicing or using any of the methods Energy healers use. Modern medicine has little in common with Energy healing, it has nothing in common when we consider what is condemned in Energy healing.

I still don't see why the double standard and special pleading for "Western", "scientific", "accepted" healings being perfectly fine, but EH not. Could anyone give a thoughtful, clear response on this?

I will try.
A medical doctor is licensed and practices medical science. They attend years of school, training, residency, etc. sometimes specializing. This can mean almost 20 years of schooling for some specialties. They spend 100's of thousands of dollars for this training. They learn surgery, prescribing medicines, blood work,
urinalysis, how to recognize pathogens, diseases, illnesses, they learn to set fractures, perform surgeries, xrays, sonograms, etc. Their practices have been created through trial and error over time as they've learned how to treat the human body. In none of their teaching do they ascribe their work and training to God or to Christ. They are not practicing priestcraft, they don't suggest that they heal through the power of God or Christ--they would have to do this to be guilty of priestcraft.

Energy healing is not science based. It costs a pittance to learn compared to medical school. The results of treatments can't be measured and are not obvious. If the patient says they feel better, then it's considered a cure. An energy healer who does not claim to use God's or Christ's power or their faith to heal is not practicing priestcraft, they are simply practicing something that is New Age or occult based--because that's what Energy healing grew out of. For LDS members, this is something we are told to avoid, but not everyone listens to these warnings. The reason for the warning is that we believe New Age and Occult practices were not inspired by God, but are an imitation, therefore they can bring false and lying influences into our lives--but people are free to ignore this warning.

Where energy healing crosses a line into real condemnation, is when it becomes priestcraft--Not all energy healers practice priestcraft. It is priestcraft when the Energy practitioner claims that their power comes from God/Christ or faith and THEY CHARGE MONEY TO use this power. If an energy healer says that their power comes from the techniques they've learned about energy and say nothing of God/Christ then I'd say that's not priestcraft. It may be suspect because of it's origins and whether or not it even works, but it wouldn't be priestcraft.

[JohnnyL]

Where does the medicine in modern Western medicine come from? From the medicine those shamans and witch doctors have been using. ;) Which is nice, because before they were using really cool medicines like lead, mercury, etc. Not to mention all the doctor studies proving Coke and cigarettes were cool and certainly not harmful.

Is there science behind EH? There is all kinds of science behind it. I have put up links before in other threads, but it seems it's easier for the con-EHers to condemn in ignorance than to understand. Not that most here--maybe imho?--would likely be able to understand it. There are all kinds of scientific studies and health studies. Have you read any of the books? I daresay it's like the preachers who hate the BoM, yet have never read a word of it, only what other hate preachers have said about it. Will Western medicine recognize and accept most of it? No, of course not--it's like the Catholic Church recognizing Mormonism as okay.

But see, here's the thing--"I have to understaaaaaand." No, you don't--do you? Why? Seriously? What difference does that make? When you die, there will be 99.99999% of life that you don't understand, and when mortal man disappears, there will be quite a bit of life that we still don't understand. This is an illogical notion of Western thought, that to say A=/=B, we therefore have to know that A=SOMETHING, because it's too nerve-racking to say A=? and be ok with it. (Do you know how many people have told me here (in America): "If the official story of 9/11 isn't completely true, then you have to come up with THE answer of how it ALL happened, or I won't stop believing the official story!")

I have no idea why something costing lots of money is much better than something costing much less. A huge argument that's been used over and over is that people have to pay money not only to be helped, but to learn to do EH. Here's another "A--but when convenient, B" thing.

Cures are pretty easy to tell, like with a phobia. Can you tell if you have a phobia or not? When something is there one moment, then gone the next, that's very good evidence for me--much better evidence than what is accepted scientifically. When someone says, "It's the placebo effect", I have to laugh. 20 doctors couldn't give the person a placebo effect, but just following me, and having absolutely no clue what is happening or what to expect, something painful was there for months or years or decades, and in minutes or seconds is gone--is that the placebo effect? Lol. Go for it, is what I always say, but of course they don't and can't. Hmm, so many EH have an impossibly uncanny ability to create the placebo effect in people...

It is priestcraft when the Energy practitioner claims that their power comes from God/Christ or faith and THEY CHARGE MONEY TO use this power.

By what means did Western medicine advance, and by what means do people learn? From whence cometh inspiration? What is the role of the light of Christ in this world, and this universe? Can any con-EHer explain the place of the light of Christ in the scientific paradigm? Because obviously it's there--so what is it? If you understood some about EH, you would understand that some EH uses the light of Christ. If both doctors and EH use the light of Christ, and one denies it and the other proclaims it... What do you con-EHers think? Who is more acceptable before the Lord?

If an energy healer says that their power comes from the techniques they've learned about energy and say nothing of God/Christ then I'd say that's not priestcraft. It may be suspect because of it's origins and whether or not it even works, but it wouldn't be priestcraft.

Possbily so. Is it more important what one says, or what one does?

In none of their teaching do they ascribe their work and training to God or to Christ.

DC 59:21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.
Prophets have told us where inspiration and learning comes from--yet doctors will not acknowledge it. Is that better than even what con-EHers presume about EH?

They are not practicing priestcraft, they don't suggest that they heal through the power of God or Christ--they would have to do this to be guilty of priestcraft.

No offense, but I believe this is naive. Have you never heard of the Church of Science? The Church of Western Medicine? Most Americans worship at their feet. Their doctor is God, the nurses are angels, the medicine is miracles, their special mysterious knowledge is dogma, everything else is anathema, enforceable by sword and law, especially if it can't make the AMA money. Most con-EHers love to pretend to know where EH comes from, but here's the important question: Do you know where your Western Medicine/ AMA comes from? There are a few great books on this history. Science, true science, hit a huge brick wall when the AMA reared its ugly head. Of course they are guilty of priestcraft--do not they lift themselves up and give themselves as a light to the world, to receive glory of man, instead of giving it to God? Do not the Church of Science and the Church of Western Medicine, brothers in arms, both proclaim, "There is no God!"?

What is the role of intuition in life? Where does it come from, what is the medium? ESP? So many other "paranormal" experiences people have, without even expecting or wanting them?

[JohnnyL]

If they heal by faith, can their results be replicated by people who aren't trained in what they do?

Obviously if it is JUST faith in Christ, there is no reason for training.

Likely, you misunderstood/ misunderstand them, or they misunderstand what they do.

However, as many people have linked EH all together, it's a lie to use part of one group and apply it generally to all others, etc. You realize that, don't you?

But DO they heal by faith? Can miracles be performed through means other than faith?

Yes, they can. What we would call Miracles (things that are unexplained) can and are performed through other means--Pagans and mystics can also perform miracles. False prophets can perform miracles, remember that the Anti-Christ will show miracles and of course, there is the example of the Priests of Pharoah who performed miracles that imitated Moses'.

Is it not true that Energy healing is not always done in a 'christ centered' manner. It is also done by Energy healers who profess no belief in christ. I assume they still have success at their craft, but the power they claim, they would not attribute to faith, since they don't profess faith in christ. If Energy healing really works, then the Christ centered ones should have the same results as the ones which are secular, right? Since you believe the training in Energy healing is what works, not the faith of the individual.

So obviously, it has nothing to do with faith, since faith is not required--unless you say that non Christ centered energy healing doesn't work. Then one has to ask if it 'works' or is it the placebo effect that makes it seem to the patient that it's working.

One has to wonder, why would some Energy healers use Christ as a selling point in their healing, if faith isn't important or necessary to practice Energy healing?

Yes! I pretty much agree with all (other than the second paragraph).

[Finrock]

Perhaps we need to define what it really means to be "healed." From what little I've read about energy healing, the person's symptoms might go away for awhile but often return.

Yes, healing is a gift of the spirit, but think about every other gift of the spirit and how there is a evil counterfeit to manifesting that gift. And if indeed Satan is the one afflicting us with disease in some cases, it makes perfect sense to me that in order to deceive and have someone trust in his power, he would stop afflicting that individual to make them have faith in the words, signs, and behaviors associated with tapping into his power.

As you explained, defining what we mean by healing is important. Butterfly's comments are more round about thinking that muddies spiritual waters and understanding IMO. I don't think any of us would be comfortable making a statement like 'Satan can heal'. Satan can obstruct, he can destroy, belittle, damage, etc, and he can deceive. Satan has no interest in doing any good, but there's no question that he can imitate what seems to be good. He inspires people to set up churches, supposedly to worship God, but they are to draw people away from God.
I wonder about that. I have read many people who have set up churches because they felt called to do it, obviously doing much good to bring others closer to God. No doubt some have done so for priestcraft or other reasons, and yes, a few led by evil spirits.

The Lord said that our church is the 'only true and living church on the earth', so if someone sets up another one, that's wrong.
It's wrong to set up a competing church to the Lord's church, regardless of good intentions.

He inspires people to pursue things that might look good on the outside, but in fact, will destroy them morally or spiritually. So, I think we need to avoid limiting what we think Satan is capable of, if we do, we run the risk of being deceived by him, because we underestimate him. If we try to concentrate our thoughts into a simple statement like; 'Satan can't heal', then we come to the erroneous conclusion that all the 'healings' we observe come from God, since Satan isn't capable of doing that. If we trust this logic, we will be wrong. We know that Revelation warns us that the Anti christ will perform great miracles. Are these miracles all going to be evil things? Of course not, they will look wondrous and appealing, they will imitate 'good' because while many people are foolish, they aren't all idiots-- who in their right mind wants to worship a being that only makes them miserable with his miracles and wonders? He will seem like a Savior and will use his power to impress and gain followers. Satan is the great imitator, he has power, he gives 'gifts' too...we must be discerning.
Good points, also.

Elder Hales spoke about the gifts of the spirit and reminded us that they can be imitated by Satan. In this talk, he gives wise counsel for those seeking to be healed and how they ought to be careful and discerning: I think those seeking healing through Energy practitioners should consider his advice--that is, if they are mainstream, active LDS. If they no longer believe or have joined a break off sect, they probably won't care what Elder Hales had to say on the subject and maybe that's why Energy Healing was seen as a sort of gate way drug to Denver Snuffer. If a person is listening to other 'voices', they are in danger of being deceived by false spirits and they will also put themselves in danger falling for practices which are imitations of God's true power.

How does one distinguish between manifestations of the Spirit and counterfeits? One might ask these questions:

Is the manifestation edifying? Spiritual gifts are not given to satisfy one’s lusts or curiosities, but are given as a blessing and benefit to those who love God and keep His commandments.

In acts of healing, does the healer follow the divinely established procedures? That is, does he do it in the manner in which Jesus did, seeking faith and purity of heart and then anointing with oil?

Has the worker of miracles received the gift of the Holy Ghost himself through the prescribed ordinances? One cannot invoke the blessings of heaven without having received the gifts and the right or authority to act in His name.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/gift ... t?lang=eng

I see that Elder Hales is talking about anointing with oil, prescribed ordinances, using the HG or priesthood. I don't understand what he means.

He means the proper way to give blessings; two priesthood holders, one anoints with consecrated oil, one seals and pronounces the blessing, using Melchizedek priesthood and through the Holy ghost. Elder Hales would think it inappropriate to give a blessing in any other way, if this is available.

And it goes back to the problem of doctors et. al., who also do not perform in the way that Elder Hales describes. If you want to condemn EH with this, you must also condemn any other "healers", including doctors et. al. Modern medicine doesn't have it's origins in the Occult. Modern medicine NEVER uses God's/Christ's power or faith to heal, so why would we condemn Medical doctors? They aren't practicing or using any of the methods Energy healers use. Modern medicine has little in common with Energy healing, it has nothing in common when we consider what is condemned in Energy healing.

I still don't see why the double standard and special pleading for "Western", "scientific", "accepted" healings being perfectly fine, but EH not. Could anyone give a thoughtful, clear response on this?

I will try.
A medical doctor is licensed and practices medical science. They attend years of school, training, residency, etc. sometimes specializing. This can mean almost 20 years of schooling for some specialties. They spend 100's of thousands of dollars for this training. They learn surgery, prescribing medicines, blood work,
urinalysis, how to recognize pathogens, diseases, illnesses, they learn to set fractures, perform surgeries, xrays, sonograms, etc. Their practices have been created through trial and error over time as they've learned how to treat the human body. In none of their teaching do they ascribe their work and training to God or to Christ. They are not practicing priestcraft, they don't suggest that they heal through the power of God or Christ--they would have to do this to be guilty of priestcraft.

Energy healing is not science based. It costs a pittance to learn compared to medical school. The results of treatments can't be measured and are not obvious. If the patient says they feel better, then it's considered a cure. An energy healer who does not claim to use God's or Christ's power or their faith to heal is not practicing priestcraft, they are simply practicing something that is New Age or occult based--because that's what Energy healing grew out of. For LDS members, this is something we are told to avoid, but not everyone listens to these warnings. The reason for the warning is that we believe New Age and Occult practices were not inspired by God, but are an imitation, therefore they can bring false and lying influences into our lives--but people are free to ignore this warning.

Where energy healing crosses a line into real condemnation, is when it becomes priestcraft--Not all energy healers practice priestcraft. It is priestcraft when the Energy practitioner claims that their power comes from God/Christ or faith and THEY CHARGE MONEY TO use this power. If an energy healer says that their power comes from the techniques they've learned about energy and say nothing of God/Christ then I'd say that's not priestcraft. It may be suspect because of it's origins and whether or not it even works, but it wouldn't be priestcraft.

You sound like you are praising the fact that modern medicine requires training, and schooling, and that it rejects God, Christ, and all but empirically verifiable data/evidence. But, did you know that modern western medicine has its roots in the supernatural, the occult, and other esoteric and mystical traditions? Indeed, what you see today in modern western medicine "grew out of" what you would consider occult practices and the belief in supernatural powers. It wasn't until the 18th century where doctors began to be more "scientific".

Also, priestcraft is not just limited to claiming you are healing through the power of Christ. Priestcraft as defined by Mormons is "men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world; they do not seek the welfare of Zion". By your own admission doctors are not seeking the welfare of Zion. How can they if they don't acknowledge God and Christ in all things? How many doctors do their craft for free? In general, how are doctors treated in our society?

-Finrock

[DesertWonderer]

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/energy ... doscience/

So-called complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) is largely philosophy-based medicine rather than science based. There are a few core concepts that are endlessly recycled in various forms, but it is mythology and culture, not grounded in the rigorous methods of science that allow us to tell the difference between our satisfying fantasies and hard reality. Sometimes proponents of such philosophies try to cloak their beliefs in the appearance of science, resulting in what we simply call pseudoscience.

Harriet Hall coined an excellent term to refer to such pseudoscience –” Tooth Fairy science.” In her metaphor, pseudoscientists sometimes act like scientists by describing the details and statistics of their claimed phenomenon (such as examining all the details of the Tooth Fairy phenomenon) without ever testing the reality of the phenomenon itself. The fundamental concept at the core of their belief is never challenged, or only superficially so, and they proceed prematurely from their faulty premise.

Another term that I find extremely apt is “Cargo Cult science,” a term coined by Richard Feynman. This is a reference to the cargo cults of New Guinea – the pre-industrial tribes were observed building straw mock-ups of control towers, planes, and runways in hopes that the planes they observed flying over head would deliver their cargo to them. In other words – the cargo cults mimicked the superficial appearance of an aviation infrastructure but had none of the real essence or function (because of lack of understanding). This is a perfect analogy to much of what passes for science within the world of CAM.

Not that we need another analogy, but I have often described such pseudoscience as being lost in the noise. In any endeavor to detect something there is the issue of the signal to noise ratio. Often the core challenge of scientific research is pulling the signal out from the background noise, or (more to the point) deciding if there is a signal in the noise, or if the information represents pure noise. In this analogy “noise” refers to any randomness in the data or interference from effects other than the alleged signal of interest. What I find is that pseudoscientific investigations of tooth fairy phenomena are completely lost in the noise of data, seeing whatever phantom “signals” support their philosophy. Elaborate but entirely illusory constructs are often crafted (or retrofitted to) these phantom signals.

Energy medicine is a perfect example of cargo-cult, Tooth Fairy, noise-based pseudoscience.

Energy medicine began its life as a philosophy-based notion, and is still philosophy-based, but many of its modern practitioners are desperate for the respectability that science has to offer. Some have therefore erected a pseudoscientific facade for this pre-scientific superstition.

One example I was recently asked to investigate is the Heartmath institute., which promotes an energy-medicine based claim that the heart sends out “energy” waves that regulate the body, including the brain. According to proponents, the heart has its own memory and emotion and the health and functioning of the body depend upon the energy rhythms generated by the heart. Heartmath explains:

Most of us have been taught in school that the heart is constantly responding to “orders” sent by the brain in the form of neural signals. However, it is not as commonly known that the heart actually sends more signals to the brain than the brain sends to the heart! Moreover, these heart signals have a significant effect on brain function—influencing emotional processing as well as higher cognitive faculties such as attention, perception, memory, and problem-solving. In other words, not only does the heart respond to the brain, but the brain continuously responds to the heart.

The noise that is the basis of their “research” is heart rate variability (HRV) – the beat-to-beat variability in the time between successive heart beats. Proponents claim that there is an optimal HRV for mental and physical health, sometimes called “coherence” (because pseudosciences need to have their own fake jargon). Negative emotions cause chaotic HRV which then negatively affect the brain and rest of the body, while happy emotions result in HRV coherence and health.

I could not find any published peer-reviewed studies that establish any of these premises. I did find one recent review of coherence and HRV therapy for anxiety and depression, which concluded:

Our literature search focused on 1) the assumption that poor mental health is definitely linked to deviant heart rate variability, and 2) the assumption that optimising heart rate variability leads specifically to a reduction of complaints and symptoms.

There is insufficient evidence to support these two assumptions.

Slow breathing and heart coherence training probably achieve their effects as a result of non-specific psychological mechanisms.

The last statement assumes that any effects are achieved, a question which was not the focus of this review. Any feedback type intervention likely results in a degree of relaxation and stress reduction, however – the non-specific effects referred to above. Of course, HeartMath assures us (without evidence) that coherence is not simply relaxation.

Heartmath sells a machine, the emWave, that measures the heart rhythm (it seems as if it is measuring the pulse, although this is not explicitly described), and also breathing. This creates lots of data in the form of waves, which can either be smooth or chaotic looking:



As I sated above, there are multiple sources of “noise” in data, including simple random variation and interference from effects other than the effect of interest. The pulse waves above are not correlated with an EKG (at least not in the material provided), but it would certainly be interesting to see the heart rhythm that accompanies the above pressure waves. The assumption being made is that the top pressure wave (during frustration) is real and not due to technical interference, but that would be the most probable cause. It is common to measure pulse waves in the hospital, so I am used to looking at them displayed on a monitor. The top tracing looks to me like technical interference, such as from moving or tensing the muscles. In other words – this is likely literal noise, not a true measure of anything physiological. This is the equivalent of interpreting pigeons nesting on the radio dish as alien signals.

The breathing tracings are even worse – one would have to believe the subject when not in “coherence” is hyperventilating and on the brink of passing out to believe the tracings are real and not artifactual.

That is it – that is the core evidence for the entire premise of Heartmath, bad tracings, technical artifacts, and noise. Everything else is just mythology and storytelling – a tale woven from intertwining threads of pre-scientific superstition and some modern jargon and concepts.

Weaving in some actual science is also a common ploy of pseudoscience. The best lies have a kernel of truth at their center. For example, in the documentary linked to above we are told that the heart generates the largest electromagnetic field of anything in the body. This is mostly true, because the heart is regulated by an internal electrical system and muscles in general are electrical tissue. The heart puts out the largest signal while the body is at rest. When engaging in physical activity, the muscles put out large amounts of electrical signals as well on the same order of magnitude as the heart. But all of this has nothing to do with the claims of Heartmath and coherence – it’s just a science factoid used to make it seem as if the energy medicine claims are based on science when they aren’t.

The documentary goes on to say that the pulse (what they are measuring with their emWave) is not a result of blood flow but of an energy wave from the heart. This is patently false – the pulse can be interrupted by blocking blood flow. But this bit of error is necessary for the Heartmath construct – that their emWave is not simply a pulse meter prone to noise, but is measuring energy from the heart that is magically communicating to the brain and the rest of the body. They start with a trueish but irrelevant fact, then leap off the cliff.

Conclusion:

For many pseudosciences, when you dig down to the core of their claims you will find there either nothing, or simply noise – some source of random or artifactual signals that generate data to feed into the predetermined conclusions of the pseudoscience. Energy medicine in general, and Heartmath in particular, are excellent examples of this phenomenon.

What you do not find are rigorous scientific studies that are designed to test the core premises of the pseudoscience – designed so that they are capable of disproving their premises or distinguishing the new effect they are claiming from existing known effects. In other words – you will not find any actual science, just the “cheap imitation” of cargo-cult, tooth fairy science.

[Finrock]

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/energy ... doscience/

So-called complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) is largely philosophy-based medicine rather than science based. There are a few core concepts that are endlessly recycled in various forms, but it is mythology and culture, not grounded in the rigorous methods of science that allow us to tell the difference between our satisfying fantasies and hard reality. Sometimes proponents of such philosophies try to cloak their beliefs in the appearance of science, resulting in what we simply call pseudoscience.

Harriet Hall coined an excellent term to refer to such pseudoscience –” Tooth Fairy science.” In her metaphor, pseudoscientists sometimes act like scientists by describing the details and statistics of their claimed phenomenon (such as examining all the details of the Tooth Fairy phenomenon) without ever testing the reality of the phenomenon itself. The fundamental concept at the core of their belief is never challenged, or only superficially so, and they proceed prematurely from their faulty premise.

Another term that I find extremely apt is “Cargo Cult science,” a term coined by Richard Feynman. This is a reference to the cargo cults of New Guinea – the pre-industrial tribes were observed building straw mock-ups of control towers, planes, and runways in hopes that the planes they observed flying over head would deliver their cargo to them. In other words – the cargo cults mimicked the superficial appearance of an aviation infrastructure but had none of the real essence or function (because of lack of understanding). This is a perfect analogy to much of what passes for science within the world of CAM.

Not that we need another analogy, but I have often described such pseudoscience as being lost in the noise. In any endeavor to detect something there is the issue of the signal to noise ratio. Often the core challenge of scientific research is pulling the signal out from the background noise, or (more to the point) deciding if there is a signal in the noise, or if the information represents pure noise. In this analogy “noise” refers to any randomness in the data or interference from effects other than the alleged signal of interest. What I find is that pseudoscientific investigations of tooth fairy phenomena are completely lost in the noise of data, seeing whatever phantom “signals” support their philosophy. Elaborate but entirely illusory constructs are often crafted (or retrofitted to) these phantom signals.

Energy medicine is a perfect example of cargo-cult, Tooth Fairy, noise-based pseudoscience.

Energy medicine began its life as a philosophy-based notion, and is still philosophy-based, but many of its modern practitioners are desperate for the respectability that science has to offer. Some have therefore erected a pseudoscientific facade for this pre-scientific superstition.

One example I was recently asked to investigate is the Heartmath institute., which promotes an energy-medicine based claim that the heart sends out “energy” waves that regulate the body, including the brain. According to proponents, the heart has its own memory and emotion and the health and functioning of the body depend upon the energy rhythms generated by the heart. Heartmath explains:

Most of us have been taught in school that the heart is constantly responding to “orders” sent by the brain in the form of neural signals. However, it is not as commonly known that the heart actually sends more signals to the brain than the brain sends to the heart! Moreover, these heart signals have a significant effect on brain function—influencing emotional processing as well as higher cognitive faculties such as attention, perception, memory, and problem-solving. In other words, not only does the heart respond to the brain, but the brain continuously responds to the heart.

The noise that is the basis of their “research” is heart rate variability (HRV) – the beat-to-beat variability in the time between successive heart beats. Proponents claim that there is an optimal HRV for mental and physical health, sometimes called “coherence” (because pseudosciences need to have their own fake jargon). Negative emotions cause chaotic HRV which then negatively affect the brain and rest of the body, while happy emotions result in HRV coherence and health.

I could not find any published peer-reviewed studies that establish any of these premises. I did find one recent review of coherence and HRV therapy for anxiety and depression, which concluded:

Our literature search focused on 1) the assumption that poor mental health is definitely linked to deviant heart rate variability, and 2) the assumption that optimising heart rate variability leads specifically to a reduction of complaints and symptoms.

There is insufficient evidence to support these two assumptions.

Slow breathing and heart coherence training probably achieve their effects as a result of non-specific psychological mechanisms.

The last statement assumes that any effects are achieved, a question which was not the focus of this review. Any feedback type intervention likely results in a degree of relaxation and stress reduction, however – the non-specific effects referred to above. Of course, HeartMath assures us (without evidence) that coherence is not simply relaxation.

Heartmath sells a machine, the emWave, that measures the heart rhythm (it seems as if it is measuring the pulse, although this is not explicitly described), and also breathing. This creates lots of data in the form of waves, which can either be smooth or chaotic looking:



As I sated above, there are multiple sources of “noise” in data, including simple random variation and interference from effects other than the effect of interest. The pulse waves above are not correlated with an EKG (at least not in the material provided), but it would certainly be interesting to see the heart rhythm that accompanies the above pressure waves. The assumption being made is that the top pressure wave (during frustration) is real and not due to technical interference, but that would be the most probable cause. It is common to measure pulse waves in the hospital, so I am used to looking at them displayed on a monitor. The top tracing looks to me like technical interference, such as from moving or tensing the muscles. In other words – this is likely literal noise, not a true measure of anything physiological. This is the equivalent of interpreting pigeons nesting on the radio dish as alien signals.

The breathing tracings are even worse – one would have to believe the subject when not in “coherence” is hyperventilating and on the brink of passing out to believe the tracings are real and not artifactual.

That is it – that is the core evidence for the entire premise of Heartmath, bad tracings, technical artifacts, and noise. Everything else is just mythology and storytelling – a tale woven from intertwining threads of pre-scientific superstition and some modern jargon and concepts.

Weaving in some actual science is also a common ploy of pseudoscience. The best lies have a kernel of truth at their center. For example, in the documentary linked to above we are told that the heart generates the largest electromagnetic field of anything in the body. This is mostly true, because the heart is regulated by an internal electrical system and muscles in general are electrical tissue. The heart puts out the largest signal while the body is at rest. When engaging in physical activity, the muscles put out large amounts of electrical signals as well on the same order of magnitude as the heart. But all of this has nothing to do with the claims of Heartmath and coherence – it’s just a science factoid used to make it seem as if the energy medicine claims are based on science when they aren’t.

The documentary goes on to say that the pulse (what they are measuring with their emWave) is not a result of blood flow but of an energy wave from the heart. This is patently false – the pulse can be interrupted by blocking blood flow. But this bit of error is necessary for the Heartmath construct – that their emWave is not simply a pulse meter prone to noise, but is measuring energy from the heart that is magically communicating to the brain and the rest of the body. They start with a trueish but irrelevant fact, then leap off the cliff.

Conclusion:

For many pseudosciences, when you dig down to the core of their claims you will find there either nothing, or simply noise – some source of random or artifactual signals that generate data to feed into the predetermined conclusions of the pseudoscience. Energy medicine in general, and Heartmath in particular, are excellent examples of this phenomenon.

What you do not find are rigorous scientific studies that are designed to test the core premises of the pseudoscience – designed so that they are capable of disproving their premises or distinguishing the new effect they are claiming from existing known effects. In other words – you will not find any actual science, just the “cheap imitation” of cargo-cult, tooth fairy science.

The same criticism can be used against faith based healing. How much evidence is there supporting Mormon priesthood healings? What scientist or doctor would refer you to your Home Teacher to heal your heart when you need open heart surgery? What empirical and verifiable data do we have demonstrating the efficacy of priesthood blessings? Do we have empirical, peer reviewed data showing any physiological changes or alterations to organs after receiving a priesthood blessing?

If none of this data exists, should we doubt the priesthood and God's power to heal?

-Finrock

[DesertWonderer]

If you want to, it's OK with me.

[Finrock]

If you want to, it's OK with me.

It's not about what I want or not want. It's about taking what you posted to its logical conclusion and applying it fairly to every situation.

I'm asking you if you believe that because we can't empirically verify priesthood blessings, should we reject priesthood and God's power to heal?

-Finrock

[Thinker]

Also, priestcraft is not just limited to claiming you are healing through the power of Christ. Priestcraft as defined by Mormons is "men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world; they do not seek the welfare of Zion". By your own admission doctors are not seeking the welfare of Zion. How can they if they don't acknowledge God and Christ in all things? How many doctors do their craft for free? In general, how are doctors treated in our society?

-Finrock

Good points - some I agree with. God (& his miraculous creation of our bodies) does the healing and the doctor gets paid for it.

Still, doctors are not up preaching that they're doing this all for and through God. Doctors study science, not religion. If they began practicing based on religion, they could lose clients, get sued etc.

I think one key element of healing, and why I don't believe in charging for spiritual powers, is also because healing and spiritual experiences don't work like science. You can't set up a control group/scientific method and demand the spirit work FOR you every time the same way. The spirit doesn't work like that - at least not good spirits. The spirit works by God's timing and ways, NOT ours. That doesn't mean divination tools (scriptures, temple rituals, various healing art tools) are useless - they can help us, but they can't be counted on to work every time. It's a reminder that we are not in control - God is. The moment someone tries to CONTROL the spirit - is when they lose it. Similarly, I believe that when people try to summon spirits - maybe loved one's who died - they attract negative spirits who seek to control... On the other hand, I believe that God and others on the other side of the veil will communicate with us when it's good and right to - but again, it seems to be on God's timing, not ours.

[JohnnyL]

If you want to, it's OK with me.

Wow, DW, you have your own thought to share instead of trolling with other people's stuff. ;)

[JohnnyL]

Also, priestcraft is not just limited to claiming you are healing through the power of Christ. Priestcraft as defined by Mormons is "men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world; they do not seek the welfare of Zion". By your own admission doctors are not seeking the welfare of Zion. How can they if they don't acknowledge God and Christ in all things? How many doctors do their craft for free? In general, how are doctors treated in our society?

-Finrock

Good points - some I agree with. God (& his miraculous creation of our bodies) does the healing and the doctor gets paid for it.

Still, doctors are not up preaching that they're doing this all for and through God. Doctors study science, not religion. If they began practicing based on religion, they could lose clients, get sued etc.

I think one key element of healing, and why I don't believe in charging for spiritual powers, is also because healing and spiritual experiences don't work like science. You can't set up a control group/scientific method and demand the spirit work FOR you every time the same way. The spirit doesn't work like that - at least not good spirits. The spirit works by God's timing and ways, NOT ours. That doesn't mean divination tools (scriptures, temple rituals, various healing art tools) are useless - they can help us, but they can't be counted on to work every time. It's a reminder that we are not in control - God is. The moment someone tries to CONTROL the spirit - is when they lose it. Similarly, I believe that when people try to summon spirits - maybe loved one's who died - they attract negative spirits who seek to control... On the other hand, I believe that God and others on the other side of the veil will communicate with us when it's good and right to - but again, it seems to be on God's timing, not ours.

And yet, I can do that with EH. Hmm....

[mirkwood]

How much do you make doing your energy work?

[Finrock]

Also, priestcraft is not just limited to claiming you are healing through the power of Christ. Priestcraft as defined by Mormons is "men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world; they do not seek the welfare of Zion". By your own admission doctors are not seeking the welfare of Zion. How can they if they don't acknowledge God and Christ in all things? How many doctors do their craft for free? In general, how are doctors treated in our society?

-Finrock

Good points - some I agree with. God (& his miraculous creation of our bodies) does the healing and the doctor gets paid for it.

Still, doctors are not up preaching that they're doing this all for and through God. Doctors study science, not religion. If they began practicing based on religion, they could lose clients, get sued etc.

I think one key element of healing, and why I don't believe in charging for spiritual powers, is also because healing and spiritual experiences don't work like science. You can't set up a control group/scientific method and demand the spirit work FOR you every time the same way. The spirit doesn't work like that - at least not good spirits. The spirit works by God's timing and ways, NOT ours. That doesn't mean divination tools (scriptures, temple rituals, various healing art tools) are useless - they can help us, but they can't be counted on to work every time. It's a reminder that we are not in control - God is. The moment someone tries to CONTROL the spirit - is when they lose it. Similarly, I believe that when people try to summon spirits - maybe loved one's who died - they attract negative spirits who seek to control... On the other hand, I believe that God and others on the other side of the veil will communicate with us when it's good and right to - but again, it seems to be on God's timing, not ours.

They may not be "preaching" that God is doing all of this, but "preaching" isn't limited to just preaching religion. They preach their craft and they preach in support of their craft.

-Finrock