Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

[Thinker]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.

Bethany,
No doubt, there are people going through tough times - spiritually, as you seem to have gone through.

I can relate. I've experienced more than you might imagine. I know that there are good and evil spirits - and that battles happen spiritually. I didn't pay someone to come and take care of my child. I prayed, researched & said some prayers out loud and things improved. I believe in energy healing. I've taught my children to put their hands out, palms facing each other, close their eyes, and feel the energy. And they feel it, as I do. I've prayed and blessed them. I believe we all, especially motherly women, have the natural inherent ability to heal - no setting apart needed. God already set us apart. And no need to pay someone to give me what God endowed me with.

The healing arts have fascinated me so I researched the major ones. I came to the conclusion that they all work based on faith - placebo effect, specifically - all except acupressure/acupuncture. Just because it's all in our minds doesn't mean healing arts should be dismissed - but rather they need to be recognized for what they are - divination tools that work based on belief and God's will. God planted in each of us a miraculous seed of so much - maybe everything! And how do we access that potential? Not by paying money to someone else. But by learning line-upon-line... increasing our awareness. Remember how Jesus said if you take out evil spirits of someone but don't replace a cleaned out mind with good things, the evil spirits will return stronger and in greater number. To me, this means that each of us need to take responsibility for our own mental and spiritual health - we can't expect someone to do our spiritual and psychological work for us.

I do believe there is order in this universe - that things happen based on cause and effect not just in the natural world, but also spiritually. The challenge is learning how that works when a lot of it is beyond logic and more conscious-based (I AM THAT I AM - God is that consciousness aware of consciousness). Faith may seem like empty fluff to some skeptics - but it's powerful! The FDA bases their study of medication effectiveness on belief (placebo effect). Metaphysically, we are powerful - if we just learn to direct our psych-ology (study of the soul) - to improve thinking, feeling and habits - so we're healthier physically, mentally and spiritually. Nobody can do this for us - even if you give them a lot of MONEY - each person is his/her own agent. Free agency is truly a priceless thing not to be given up.

"There must needs be opposition in all things." In the midst of them, challenges feel really awful, but in the big picture, they are what help us grow and become stronger - if we confront them head on - with God's help. Others can help lessen the burden, but ultimately, the real healing is by God - from that seed that God planted within us. That seed that God gave us is not something others have the right to charge money for.

[Thinker]

EH heals nothing.

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D.

Subtle forces can lead intelligent people (both patients and therapists) to think that a treatment has helped someone when it has not. This is true for new treatments in scientific medicine, as well as for nostrums in folk medicine, fringe practices in "alternative medicine," and the ministrations of faith healers.

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.

There are at least seven reasons why people may erroneously conclude that an ineffective therapy works:
1. The disease may have run its natural course. Many diseases are self-limiting. If the condition is not chronic or fatal, the body's own recuperative processes usually restore the sufferer to health. Thus, to demonstrate that a therapy is effective, its proponents must show that the number of patients listed as improved exceeds the number expected to recover without any treatment at all (or that they recover reliably faster than if left untreated). Without detailed records of successes and failures for a large enough number of patients with the same complaint, someone cannot legitimately claim to have exceeded the published norms for unaided recovery.

2. Many diseases are cyclical. Such conditions as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, allergies, and gastrointestinal problems normally have "ups and downs." Naturally, sufferers tend to seek therapy during the downturn of any given cycle. In this way, a bogus treatment will have repeated opportunities to coincide with upturns that would have happened anyway.

3. The placebo effect may be responsible. Through suggestion, belief, expectancy, cognitive reinterpretation, and diversion of attention, patients given biologically useless treatments often experience measurable relief. Some placebo responses produce actual changes in the physical condition; others are subjective changes that make patients feel better even though there has been no objective change in the underlying pathology.

4. People who hedge their bets credit the wrong thing. If improvement occurs after someone has had both "alternative" and science-based treatment, the fringe practice often gets a disproportionate share of the credit.

5. The original diagnosis or prognosis may have been incorrect. Scientifically trained physicians are not infallible. A mistaken diagnosis, followed by a trip to a shrine or an "alternative" healer, can lead to a glowing testimonial for curing a condition that would have resolved by itself. In other cases, the diagnosis may be correct but the time frame, which is inherently difficult to predict, might prove inaccurate.

6. Temporary mood improvement can be confused with cure. Alternative healers often have forceful, charismatic personalities. To the extent that patients are swept up by the messianic aspects of "alternative medicine," psychological uplift may ensue.

7. Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in "alternative medicine" can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and "face" to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most "alternative" therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.

Buyer Beware!

The job of distinguishing real from spurious causal relationships requires well designed studies and logical abstractions from large bodies of data. Many sources of error can mislead people who rely on intuition or informal reasoning to analyze complex events. Before agreeing to any kind of treatment, you should feel confident that it makes sense and has been scientifically validated through studies that control for placebo responses, compliance effects, and judgmental errors. You should be very wary if the "evidence" consists merely of testimonials, self-published pamphlets or books, or items from the popular media.

Several good points...
God has given us bodies that self-heal if given time - and some may assume the energy healers did what their bodies did.
Doctors are practicing - so often (in my case more often than not) they misdiagnose initially - so later, another doctor may declare them free of some previously diagnosed problem and patient assumes they were healed (when really it was just something else that was the problem, so the previously thought problem seems healed).

The main slight disagreement I might have is that basically #3, 6 & 7 may be illusional beliefs, but they are powerful. The placebo effect is powerful - there is no doubt about it. And I see using that power in good ways as an important part of physical, psychological and spiritual healing. The key is to ensure illusions are functional - then they are "priceless."

[bethany]

Sorry Thinker, your comments don't even approach what I work with.

I think LDS people love to compete - going back to the wider audience. Its one of the reasons I dropped the magazines about 12 years ago. I read an issue of the New Era & most of the content focused on valuing each individual based on where they could 'best' someone else. All about how awesome a lone lds kid at his school could run faster than everyone else & garnered ribbons, etc. Then it went through each of his siblings & what they could best everyone at.... tying their value & virtue only to how they could shine for honors and represent the church. That was the last issue I allowed in my house & it went the way of the trash very quickly.

I don't charge for what I do because I choose to. I am no more virtuous than Johnny or anybody I've ever paid to sit with me for an hour or 2 hours while we work together to find the core of an issue. And despite what we've been taught, its not about the devils & spirits. They are nothing more than opportunists. If someone breaks into your house because they could get through the barriers, its really a reflection of insufficient barriers & boundaries, its not that you've got to lock up all the burglars. It's the barriers that allowed them in. Its not the clean mind, its the strength & structure of the mind, the temple of God. Lots of people keep their children locked up tight from the world, living away from society, no tv, no outside influence, in the end, they become infiltrated when they are faced with stuff despite their clean hands & minds.

Because the mind & temple that they are was built in a faulty way on dna that allowed things in. If we had the pure & perfect dna that was originally brought into this world, there would be no space where demons & unclean spirits could get in. There would be no multi personalities, fractionated beings... people who deal with split personalities have nothing to do with being possessed or casting out. Entities are just the vultures coming along to eat the carcass. They simply saw the cracks & scooted in.

I'm gonna hibernate again from the forum for a while, it's like talking apples & oranges.

Everyone may have the seed of perfection within them, but some have been so fractured that they need help getting back to that perfection. I've watched for 35 years, I've watched people raised in satanic homes having the assistance of stellar priesthood holders & no improvement. In speaking with Elder Pace of the 70, who had experience in this, I asked him directly for guidance on how to help someone, he told me that despite all his efforts he did not produce improvements. Despite his constant blessings & reaching out to help, the people continued to struggle in the same manner. So since we are 'competing', please share with me your priesthood rank & the success you've produced in completely healing this issue? Elder Pace instructed me to continue my pursuits in energy healing. So if you've had experience & success, I'm not mocking you. Bring it to the board, share it with those who are battling something beyond vicious. I think Elder Pace reached a rank beyond what the ppl on this board have reached if we are taking about lines of authority. Counsel others based on your experience not your perceptions.

Again, I'm not talking about simple matters that need a blessing, some entity cast out & you go on your merry way. For that reason, I find it pointless to continue the discussion. I don't expect to convince the naysayers, I merely expect that people who read this will continue to fight, continue to search & reach & believe that God has answers for them & that there are quite a few out there seeking to resolve these issues & asking for those answers. Don't give up.

[JohnnyL]

Sorry Thinker, your comments don't even approach what I work with.

I think LDS people love to compete - going back to the wider audience. Its one of the reasons I dropped the magazines about 12 years ago. I read an issue of the New Era & most of the content focused on valuing each individual based on where they could 'best' someone else. All about how awesome a lone lds kid at his school could run faster than everyone else & garnered ribbons, etc. Then it went through each of his siblings & what they could best everyone at.... tying their value & virtue only to how they could shine for honors and represent the church. That was the last issue I allowed in my house & it went the way of the trash very quickly.

I don't charge for what I do because I choose to. I am no more virtuous than Johnny or anybody I've ever paid to sit with me for an hour or 2 hours while we work together to find the core of an issue. And despite what we've been taught, its not about the devils & spirits. They are nothing more than opportunists. If someone breaks into your house because they could get through the barriers, its really a reflection of insufficient barriers & boundaries, its not that you've got to lock up all the burglars. It's the barriers that allowed them in. Its not the clean mind, its the strength & structure of the mind, the temple of God. Lots of people keep their children locked up tight from the world, living away from society, no tv, no outside influence, in the end, they become infiltrated when they are faced with stuff despite their clean hands & minds.

Because the mind & temple that they are was built in a faulty way on dna that allowed things in. If we had the pure & perfect dna that was originally brought into this world, there would be no space where demons & unclean spirits could get in. There would be no multi personalities, fractionated beings... people who deal with split personalities have nothing to do with being possessed or casting out. Entities are just the vultures coming along to eat the carcass. They simply saw the cracks & scooted in.

I'm gonna hibernate again from the forum for a while, it's like talking apples & oranges.

Everyone may have the seed of perfection within them, but some have been so fractured that they need help getting back to that perfection. I've watched for 35 years, I've watched people raised in satanic homes having the assistance of stellar priesthood holders & no improvement. In speaking with Elder Pace of the 70, who had experience in this, I asked him directly for guidance on how to help someone, he told me that despite all his efforts he did not produce improvements. Despite his constant blessings & reaching out to help, the people continued to struggle in the same manner. So since we are 'competing', please share with me your priesthood rank & the success you've produced in completely healing this issue? Elder Pace instructed me to continue my pursuits in energy healing. So if you've had experience & success, I'm not mocking you. Bring it to the board, share it with those who are battling something beyond vicious. I think Elder Pace reached a rank beyond what the ppl on this board have reached if we are taking about lines of authority. Counsel others based on your experience not your perceptions.

Again, I'm not talking about simple matters that need a blessing, some entity cast out & you go on your merry way. For that reason, I find it pointless to continue the discussion. I don't expect to convince the naysayers, I merely expect that people who read this will continue to fight, continue to search & reach & believe that God has answers for them & that there are quite a few out there seeking to resolve these issues & asking for those answers. Don't give up.

Yeah, it's been a few posts out of 10 pages that were worth even reading, much less responding to. Pretty much a pointless ""discussion"", other than to practice debate skills, lol. Didn't even read some of them, at certain points. Too much fear, misguidance, faith in untruth, brainwashing, etc. Just like on other threads where people feel threatened when something threatens their view and understanding of reality.

I'm happy with doing it, and I guess lots of people here are happy not.

[HeberC]

I do a healing modality on horses. The trick is to do as little as possible and cause the body to unblock its own energy… leave out my own energy, as much as possible, by not 'leading with my intent'. Horses like this because humans usually have an agenda or they want to 'run energy' through the horse to heal him. The horse realizes he can trust me when they feel their own energy surge through the blockage several seconds after I touch them. The first time a horse experiences this, he has a look of surprise and he looks at my hands, trying to figure it all out.

Horses are trained to tolerate what humans do to them, and Reiki or some other method will heal them, but they often prefer their own energy because it feels less invasive to them. That said, there is energy everywhere and in everything and compassion and love themselves have miraculous healing power or energy. That energy I don't try to stop and the horses don't mind it.

There have been three cases where horses drew upon my energy because they knew it could heal their emotional trauma. The third case was extreme and was the time I started to learn what was happening. It wasn't humans but horses who taught me this.

I'm not interested in debating. I seems strange that some people are afraid of energy when it is everywhere and in everything.

I was totally disabled in 1980. I couldn't buy food or pay rent or hardly move. I gave my last dollar to a chiropractor who didn't do anything for me but keep asking for money that I didn't have. I got down to 111 pounds. Then, I had an old Japanese Reiki practitioner fix me up in one treatment. He said that not all people respond well. Some people prefer to be sick or in pain for whatever reason. That would not be my default position. If I choose pain or sickness, I have to have a good reason for it.

[JohnnyL]

The Energy Cure [book] includes numerous case studies. Bengston and Mayrick discovered various effects of hands-on healing, which they named after the patients who exhibited the effects. They also experienced what Bengston calls “the boggle effect,” the rejection of scientific data on the grounds that it is too good to be true. Mayrick once treated a woman who had cancerous tumors. Afterward, tests showed no sign of tumors. A cure is a cure, right? The patient chose to be obedient to the rule-book and took a treatment her doctor recommended for a tumor condition; the treatment killed her. Another time, Mayrick cured a patient of gangrene. Unlike cancer, gangrene does not remit. The patient’s doctor told her, “If I accept this, I’d have to throw out my medical training. What I’ve seen here is impossible.”

Bengston’s experience in pure and applied science is expansive. He has taught research methods, criminology, and the sociologies of religion, science, and the paranormal. “I went into the lab to verify and gain insight into a procedure that I had already successfully used to cure many people of a variety of medical problems, especially cancer,” he says. Mayrick was reluctant; Bengston continued.

His research has produced the first successful full cures of transplanted mammary cancer and induced sarcomas in experimental mice by hands-on techniques that he helped to develop. Bengston says, “Mice bred for research were injected with a particularly lethal strain of mammary cancer that had always resulted in 100 percent fatality within fourteen to twenty-seven days. Through hands-on healing, these results were completely reversed: 100 percent of the mice survived the disease to become cancer free and to live a normal two-year life span!” He also found that treated mice, re-injected, didn’t take cancer—they had developed immunity.

Modern health care is controlled more by tradition, money, and politics than by scientific data. No wonder Bengston is confounded by the refusal of so many people in the medical profession to even look at evidence that suggests they may not have all the answers. He is clear about this: Energy healing does not dispute the value of Western medicine. “In attempting to find a cancer vaccine based on energy healing, I’m not wishing to debunk Western medicine. I’m simply trying to find a way of making what I have experienced fit together with what more conventional researchers do, thus opening up new fields of discovery.”

What if doctors and scientists, and patients could be trained to understand that energy healing can be effective? Could they see it as a complement, rather than a threat, to traditional science? Could they release the protective hold on their orthodoxies for the betterment of their fields? Even in the world of energy healing, there is division between clinicians and researchers, those who embrace practical and academic work. Even someone who taught Bengston’s technique (in an official curriculum) to medical students did not use it to treat her own cancer. What was her energy doing, if not demonstrating the difference between intellectual acceptance of energy healing and the willingness to defy the societal bias against it?