Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

[Silver Pie]

I want to point out that I never said that this was what Denver Snuffer was teaching or encouraging.

Yes, I was aware of that. I pointed it out because I thought there may be some who did conflate all of that stuff and think Denver was teaching it.

Sorry, I called him 'Rigby'--that was my mistake.

I figured Rigby was a typo, but the document called him Higby, when it appears the real spelling is Higbee.

Denver Snuffer has started a 'movement'--he denies it's a new church, so I won't call it that, but it is a loose, fluid organization which sprung up through HIS influence. That, I think we can agree on.

Yes, we can agree on this, and on the rest of your paragraph.

Now, they are going to build themselves a temple, to the specifications HE sets and they are going to give him money for this project.

A temple may be built. I don't know when or where. Quite possibly, the specifications will be something he says God gave to him (or he believes it comes from God, and uses his influence to argue for it, if it comes through someone else). No one will give him money for it, though. It will go from the fund to whatever supplies need to be bought. I suspect the control of the money will be by common consent, and implemented by the women whose idea it was. Unless there are descendants of Lehi to whom is given the commandment to build the temple, then it could be somewhat different. I honestly don't know how all this is going to play out.

Sooner or later, he's going to have to take more interest in this movement he's created (or they will grow away from him and create their own individual churches and not give him money for his projects) and then, he'll either have to embrace all the craziness and allow it, or he (through those in charge of the individual fellowships) will have to start trying to take control over what's done and taught, to keep it 'pure'. It will be interesting to see what happens.

It will definitely be interesting to see what happens. This is a strange thing, really, what he has done so far. I am not going to predict whether he will take more and more control, or if he will allow the craziness to continue until the craziness wears itself out. I am content to watch.

[Silver Pie]

THIS group in this particular Stake referred to in the letter share these characteristics.

This particular group seemed to really be going off the rails, and I don't wonder that the stake president was freaking out. If I were him, I would have, also.

One thing that I take serious issue with was this statement by Denver SNuffer:


"Given the ease with which this stuff becomes public, leadership should be careful about how information is discussed. This “private” correspondence is perilously close to slander."

I have no idea why he said that.

[Silver Pie]

A good friend of mine, who is an energy healer. Told me that she is so grateful for muscle testing, because she can get the answers she needs and has been unable to get through prayer. Muscle testing is slowly replacing prayer for this woman. Another woman has become so dependent on muscle testing, she is unable to make any desicions for herself. She has to muscle test what to eat, what to wear, what to do.

Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that?

Johnny, it does look like the energy healers Mcox knows did go to extremes. On the other hand, I know none who have, and I have known quite a few in my time. It's sad that there are some out there giving energy healing a bad name.

[Silver Pie]

Finrock, you've made some good comments. Something for people to think about.

Also, I think it's sad that (in the letter) wholistic healing was lumped in with the whole. And that wholistic healing and energy healing were considered "gateway drugs" to the other things the people were into. I do think that if people are open to new things they may be open to all that was in the stake president's letter, but I don't think any of those things caused any of the others. Along the lines of "correlation does not equal causation," but the sp was in a bit of a panic.

[JohnnyL]

Mcox, you have a study or reference for that? Of course not, right? Lol.
MT is not inviting spirits. Spirits lie and deceive, right? Studies (yes, III have some) show that MT is pretty congruent with reality.

Dear Johnny, no study, just personal experience. You are right, spirits do lie and deceive. They would have you believe that they are angels of light. I was muscle testing for someone, I asked what emotions needed clearing? Through muscle testing I received answers. It was surprisingly accurate. I was divining for them. Where did those answers come from? It certainly was not the Holy Ghost. Let me ask you, have you ever had to cast out? Almost every person I know who is involved with energy healing, has had issues with evil spirits. Why do you think that is? Muscle testing is spiritually dangerous. A good friend of mine, who is an energy healer. Told me that she is so grateful for muscle testing, because she can get the answers she needs and has been unable to get through prayer. Muscle testing is slowly replacing prayer for this woman. Another woman has become so dependent on muscle testing, she is unable to make any desicions for herself. She has to muscle test what to eat, what to wear, what to do.

Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that?

Now, now Johnny, no need to get defensive. Energy healing uses methods/practices that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you again. Where do the answers from muscle testing come from? Do you use rocks to heal? Do you energize your rocks in the moonlight? Do you counsel with spirits?
And for the record, I do not believe in the law of attraction. It is a law of the adversary. And yes everyone involved with energy healing has problems with spirits bothering them, their children, their home or all of the above. Have you ever had to cast out? I'm guessing yes.

That was a beautiful deflection, and likely projection. I have only had to cast out people treated by Western medicine, truthfully. You haven't been to a doctor recently, have you? If you have had numerous operations, that would be a logical explanation to the question. That's where many people pick up spirits. I could explain much more, but... nah.

Let's try again: Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that? What is your explanation for this?

[Mcox]

Dear Johnny, no study, just personal experience. You are right, spirits do lie and deceive. They would have you believe that they are angels of light. I was muscle testing for someone, I asked what emotions needed clearing? Through muscle testing I received answers. It was surprisingly accurate. I was divining for them. Where did those answers come from? It certainly was not the Holy Ghost. Let me ask you, have you ever had to cast out? Almost every person I know who is involved with energy healing, has had issues with evil spirits. Why do you think that is? Muscle testing is spiritually dangerous. A good friend of mine, who is an energy healer. Told me that she is so grateful for muscle testing, because she can get the answers she needs and has been unable to get through prayer. Muscle testing is slowly replacing prayer for this woman. Another woman has become so dependent on muscle testing, she is unable to make any desicions for herself. She has to muscle test what to eat, what to wear, what to do.

Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that?

Now, now Johnny, no need to get defensive. Energy healing uses methods/practices that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you again. Where do the answers from muscle testing come from? Do you use rocks to heal? Do you energize your rocks in the moonlight? Do you counsel with spirits?
And for the record, I do not believe in the law of attraction. It is a law of the adversary. And yes everyone involved with energy healing has problems with spirits bothering them, their children, their home or all of the above. Have you ever had to cast out? I'm guessing yes.

That was a beautiful deflection, and likely projection. I have only had to cast out people treated by Western medicine, truthfully. You haven't been to a doctor recently, have you? If you have had numerous operations, that would be a logical explanation to the question. That's where many people pick up spirits. I could explain much more, but... nah.

Let's try again: Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that? What is your explanation for this?

Sorry dude, I stand by what I said. No explanation nessecary. I think I was pretty clear. These are my experiences with energy healing. It is not of God.

[JohnnyL]

Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that?

Now, now Johnny, no need to get defensive. Energy healing uses methods/practices that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you again. Where do the answers from muscle testing come from? Do you use rocks to heal? Do you energize your rocks in the moonlight? Do you counsel with spirits?
And for the record, I do not believe in the law of attraction. It is a law of the adversary. And yes everyone involved with energy healing has problems with spirits bothering them, their children, their home or all of the above. Have you ever had to cast out? I'm guessing yes.

Mcox,
In the interest of fairness, do you condemn Joseph Smith for using a stone and a hat to receive revelation to translate the Book of Mormon? When Joseph was viewing the stone inside of the hat and he was receiving revelation, where were the answers or revelations coming from?
-Finrock

I would never condemn Joseph Smith for anything. He was a prophet of God. A seer and revelator. Energy healers are not. He was authorized and given permission from God to use the stones. We do not need to use stones because we have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost. Using crystals for healing is just another counterfeit that Satan uses, to get good people to rely on the arm of the flesh.

Mcox,
"We do not need to use stones because we have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost." Use stones for what?? I don't follow.

Did JS stop using seer stones, and the other brethren, after they received the Holy Ghost? (I'll tell you the correct answer is no, but I asked so you might have the opportunity to think about it.)

Did Moses use a staff? Did Elisha use a mantle? Did Lehi use a Liahona? Did Jesus use mud? Did Jesus use spit? Can mud and spit be confused with olive oil? Etc. Why did they use them, if they just needed the HG (and they did all had the HG)?

Do you use Western medicine? Do you go to doctors? Are they counterfeits that Satan uses, or not? Based on what reasoning/ why? What's the difference? (Let me add here, I've had doctors tell me no one has any clue how most of the medicines work, just that things happen after time, called effects, so please don't use the "but we know how THIS works, so it's okay" argument.)

[JohnnyL]

Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that?

Now, now Johnny, no need to get defensive. Energy healing uses methods/practices that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you again. Where do the answers from muscle testing come from? Do you use rocks to heal? Do you energize your rocks in the moonlight? Do you counsel with spirits?
And for the record, I do not believe in the law of attraction. It is a law of the adversary. And yes everyone involved with energy healing has problems with spirits bothering them, their children, their home or all of the above. Have you ever had to cast out? I'm guessing yes.

That was a beautiful deflection, and likely projection. I have only had to cast out people treated by Western medicine, truthfully. You haven't been to a doctor recently, have you? If you have had numerous operations, that would be a logical explanation to the question. That's where many people pick up spirits. I could explain much more, but... nah.

Let's try again: Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that? What is your explanation for this?

Sorry dude, I stand by what I said. No explanation nessecary. I think I was pretty clear. These are my experiences with energy healing. It is not of God.

Nope! You never answered, or even started to answer, the question. An explanation is necessary, otherwise your reasoning crumbles, and I think that on this point, you see that pretty clearly. My experiences--it's a tool. It's nice to have. ;)

[JohnnyL]

Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that?

Now, now Johnny, no need to get defensive. Energy healing uses methods/practices that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you again. Where do the answers from muscle testing come from? Do you use rocks to heal? Do you energize your rocks in the moonlight? Do you counsel with spirits?
And for the record, I do not believe in the law of attraction. It is a law of the adversary. And yes everyone involved with energy healing has problems with spirits bothering them, their children, their home or all of the above. Have you ever had to cast out? I'm guessing yes.

Mcox,

In the interest of fairness, do you condemn Joseph Smith for using a stone and a hat to receive revelation to translate the Book of Mormon? When Joseph was viewing the stone inside of the hat and he was receiving revelation, where were the answers or revelations coming from?

-Finrock

Do you think that an Energy healer who uses a rock, claiming to heal someone and charges money for it is the same thing as Joseph Smith Jr., the Lord's true prophet, called by God to restore the church, using a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon???

Do you see no difference between an Energy Coach who has paid some $1,000.00 to learn their craft and Joseph Smith Jr. the Prophet of the Restoration?? Because as I read it, you seem to make no distinction between the two, suggesting they both are calling down the same powers of heaven, though one was the Lord's prophet who carried out his mission as a Seer and the other is a person who's learned a trade and is paid for their services.

Using a seer stone or a rock are the only thing I see in common and there is no shame in Joseph Smith using a seer stone to perform his work.

Think about this:
The rod of Aaron and the Divining Rods the Magicians used were simply wood, nothing more. However, they both were used to facilitate miracles, but I think we all agree that they called on very different powers to achieve those miracles--Moses was using God's power and Pharoah's magicians were using Satan's power, though they may not have realized who it was that gave them that power.

So, it is not the rocks or the Seer stones that hold the power, they are simply facilitators, as Elder Cook explained yesterday, and Joseph came to not need even that for receiving revelation--the difference is the person using them-- and what power or spirit is empowered through them.

I think you're missing the point Finrock is asking about. I don't know about her, but I don't equate either of your questions--do you know people who do? Can you point them out? But we're talking about principles here, and it goes with the other questions I just asked in the other post.

How do you know the rods were "simply wood, nothing more?" How do you know that they were using Satan's power? Does it say that in the scriptures?

Let's go to another thing. The LDS pre-church pioneers in Africa did everything according to the church, but without the priesthood and its ordinances. (This could be similar to comparing an energy healer to Joseph Smith, yeah?) Were these people of Satan? Did they use Satan's power?

[JohnnyL]

Mcox, you have a study or reference for that? Of course not, right? Lol.
MT is not inviting spirits. Spirits lie and deceive, right? Studies (yes, III have some) show that MT is pretty congruent with reality.

Dear Johnny, no study, just personal experience. You are right, spirits do lie and deceive. They would have you believe that they are angels of light. I was muscle testing for someone, I asked what emotions needed clearing? Through muscle testing I received answers. It was surprisingly accurate. I was divining for them. Where did those answers come from? It certainly was not the Holy Ghost. Let me ask you, have you ever had to cast out? Almost every person I know who is involved with energy healing, has had issues with evil spirits. Why do you think that is? Muscle testing is spiritually dangerous. A good friend of mine, who is an energy healer. Told me that she is so grateful for muscle testing, because she can get the answers she needs and has been unable to get through prayer. Muscle testing is slowly replacing prayer for this woman. Another woman has become so dependent on muscle testing, she is unable to make any desicions for herself. She has to muscle test what to eat, what to wear, what to do.

Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that?

I don't know people who do energy healing in real life (that i'm aware of ) but I've read some pretty bizarre things from some Energy practitioners on this forum (I don't recall you sharing questionable things, Johnny, other than defending it). I didn't know anything about it before I was introduced to it in Julie Rowe's book and I will tell you, I received a distinct impression from the spirit that this was a red flag as to the book and it's writer. Since then, I came across posters on this forum who were proponents of it and I can now see why I received the warning impression that I got.

I think some may not have problems with it, maybe for some it's just like practicing yoga or having their irises read, but I don't trust it and I would avoid it like I'd avoid other new age practices that some people promote.

I read little wrong with what you've written in this post.

I have no experience with JR, nor her book. From what I've heard about her, I don't get any good feelings, either. I'm not an NDE-prophet follower.

I still don't really understand the label "new age".

However...

I will share one thing, though it might--or might not--have anything to do with JR; though it could have to do with energy healing (and lots of other things). There have been times in my life when I felt something I thought was caused by an evil spirit. I have learned: Just as it is not always possible to distinguish the Holy Spirit from emotions, it can be also be difficult (and misleading, because of our incorrect judgment) to distinguish evil spirit from emotions, at times. Just something to keep that in mind.

And I have no problem with certain things, certain people, certain ways, certain times! Why, it's that way with the gospel, too.

"I don't recall you sharing questionable things, Johnny, other than defending it." Ok, I really did like that <no sarcasm>. :))

[JohnnyL]

my responses in blue;

Yes I do and were there witches present? Yes, in part. I don't agree with everything those members were doing. I do agree the lady in charge was on a power trip. I think them administering "sacrament" was wrong bc it was unnecessary (and weird). On the other side, I believe that we can receive the second comforter and I think that biases toward energy healing are sad because it is real. It's all a matter of how it is used. Anyone who says differently is ignorant of what real energy healing is. Energy healing is not the warped mumbo jumbo people think it is. And it wasn't what those people were doing either. The portion of the letter I was most perturbed by were the first six paragraphs. I've read a lot of Puritan witch accounts and they all sound just like that. There was absolutely no division in what was right and ok and what was bad. It was like some of the other posters said about it: the president said things that implied that the group practiced beliefs that are not doctrinal even tho some of those beliefs ARE doctrinal.

I was in a witch hunt. I was a witch. I was "cleared" though I knew I did nothing wrong and had no reason to be questioned. I was questioned because the church was acting on the same emotion the Purtians acted on: fear.

So, you believe the church is on a 'witch hunt' as they try to prevent members of the church from becoming involved with the Remnant movement? Because THAT is what this is all about. The Energy healing stuff is incidental, it's a concern because as he said, it's sort of a 'gateway drug'. Not all who get involved with Energy healing are also involved with the Remnant. We've been round and round on the Energy healing, the forum is split as some are heavily involved in it and will defend it to the death...
You say you were involved in something like this? Were you involved in a disciplinary council over your actions?
Are you a follower of Denver Snuffer and a member of his Remnant group?

Notice that out of all the things you could have mentioned in your title, energy healing is first. The letter mentioned it first, that's why I put it first. You are reading something into it because you are an Energy healing proponent so you are defensive. You also wrote: "the dangers of three things we often disagree on;That's because it's true--we have members on the forum who are for and those against these three things--Energy Healing, Denver Snuffer's Remnant and NDE's.
It's about apostasy in a stake--a letter from a Stake President describing how some of the members were falling into apostasy--what was driving it?
Energy Healing".
The letter might not have been a witch hunt, but your OP was.Did you even read the letter?? My OP reflected the concerns in the letter, I didn't make it up. The Stake Pres. called Energy 'treatments' a 'gateway drug' that led to other things--those were not my words. Johnny, you are a big time proponent of Energy healing---are you a coach? Do you get paid for healing? If so, I don't think you can reasonably discuss this without reacting to the fact that you and your livelihood are being attacked. Energy healing IS being identified by this Stake Pres. as a problem for these members and if you think the church is just going to ignore Energy HEaling and the problems it may lead to, think again. Don't shoot the messenger. So at least at the time you wrote it, yes, energy healing was your main emphasis. In addition, as far as I recall, this is the first time you've said anything like the marked text above about energy healing. Before, you've been pretty close, at the least, on the side that believes it's from Satan.Don't put words in my mouth, I've never said it was from Satan. I don't trust it and I think it's priestcraft when people charge for it--that's what I've said. I think it opens some up to false spirits--that's another thing I've said. The energy healing ways or beliefs that are, to whatever degree, let them be condemned for what they are, to that degree. I do see how it could be, not a gateway drug, but an opening to discuss things that show an openness to believe in beliefs that would/ might fit in with the group. I didn't write the letter, I simply started a thread about it--it's the Stake President of this stake who identified concerns over Energy healing and he felt it lead to the apostasy of some members, because then they started getting involved with Denver Snuffer's writings and apparently some other fringe groups--possibly Doug Mendenhall's Jedi Workshops. There's a lot more in the letter of their apostate beliefs and practices. The thread was not meant to just be about Energy healing. The part about some getting drunk during their version of sacrament meeting is pretty shocking.

I can certainly believe the list you gave of all the things that were problems in the group. And yes, if that is going on, that is pretty serious. Even doing just one of about half of that list would justify a disciplinary council. Not just weird, but plain wrong.

Receiving the second comforter is not something I seriously worry about. If President Joseph F. Smith could go to his latest ages and still worry every day about whether he'd go to heaven or not, as in the manual, I feel I'm on pretty solid ground.I agree, considering how often the message about enduring to the end is in the scriptures, especially in reference to the Doctrine of Christ, I think it's not a bad idea to always be striving and thinking we need to do better, not assume we've already achieved our goal.

[Finrock]

Mcox, wow, it is so... interesting?, extreme?, crazy?, coincidental?, etc.-- that out of the tens/ hundreds of thousands of energy healers there are, you only know the ones that "[almost every person I know involved in energy healing almost always goes extreme and does crazy practices]". Hmm... It seems YOU attract, or are attracted to, Satan and his influence more than anyone I know. Do you have an explanation for that?

Now, now Johnny, no need to get defensive. Energy healing uses methods/practices that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you again. Where do the answers from muscle testing come from? Do you use rocks to heal? Do you energize your rocks in the moonlight? Do you counsel with spirits?
And for the record, I do not believe in the law of attraction. It is a law of the adversary. And yes everyone involved with energy healing has problems with spirits bothering them, their children, their home or all of the above. Have you ever had to cast out? I'm guessing yes.

Mcox,

In the interest of fairness, do you condemn Joseph Smith for using a stone and a hat to receive revelation to translate the Book of Mormon? When Joseph was viewing the stone inside of the hat and he was receiving revelation, where were the answers or revelations coming from?

-Finrock

Do you think that an Energy healer who uses a rock, claiming to heal someone and charges money for it is the same thing as Joseph Smith Jr., the Lord's true prophet, called by God to restore the church, using a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon???

Do you see no difference between an Energy Coach who has paid some $1,000.00 to learn their craft and Joseph Smith Jr. the Prophet of the Restoration?? Because as I read it, you seem to make no distinction between the two, suggesting they both are calling down the same powers of heaven, though one was the Lord's prophet who carried out his mission as a Seer and the other is a person who's learned a trade and is paid for their services.

Using a seer stone or a rock are the only thing I see in common and there is no shame in Joseph Smith using a seer stone to perform his work.


Think about this:

The rod of Aaron and the Divining Rods the Magicians used were simply wood, nothing more. However, they both were used to facilitate miracles, but I think we all agree that they called on very different powers to achieve those miracles--Moses was using God's power and Pharoah's magicians were using Satan's power, though they may not have realized who it was that gave them that power.

So, it is not the rocks or the Seer stones that hold the power, they are simply facilitators, as Elder Cook explained yesterday, and Joseph came to not need even that for receiving revelation--the difference is the person using them-- and what power or spirit is empowered through them.

I don't think that a person who uses a rock to heal someone and then charges them money for it is the same thing as Joseph Smith. However, you aren't actually addressing my post and what I wrote but instead of addressing my reasoning, you built a straw man that serves the purpose of making it appear that you have debunked my point when instead you really just tore your little straw man in to pieces.

Here is the relevant point: Joseph Smith used a stone as a medium to access God's power. From the scriptures we see many prophets who use objects as a means to facilitate access to God's power. If using a stone or some other object to facilitate access to God's power is a sure sign that something is from Satan, then this principle must apply to Joseph Smith as well. If Joseph Smith using a stone to facilitate access to God's power is not a sure sign that something is from Satan, then it cannot be a sure sign in cases where other's are using a stone or an object to facilitate access to God's power. In other words, if you or Mcox were debating an anti-Mormon who was contending that Joseph Smith was being influenced by Satan because he used a "Peep Stone" for revelation, you would defend Joseph Smith and explain why it was okay for him because (and here is the kicker) you believe Joseph Smith is a prophet. As Mcox said in his own post, he doesn't care what Joseph Smith did, Mcox would not condemn him and would support him. Mcox's answer and reaction to this whole situation is a prime example of egocentric and sociocentric reasoning.

I am saying that principles apply universally. If something is true for one person, then given the same circumstances and the same context, it will be true for another person. The fact that someone is using a stone does NOT, in and of itself, indicate that they are being influenced by Satan. The fact that someone is using a medium to facilitate access to God's power, does not mean, by itself, that they are being influenced by Satan. Otherwise, we must conclude, if we are to be fair, just, and honest, that Joseph Smith was influenced by Satan by virtue of the fact that he was using a stone or a peep stone to help with translating the Book of Mormon.

The circular reasoning is being manifested in multiple ways but I'm not going to get in to that at the moment.

The fact the Joseph Smith or anyone does not need to use a stone or some object to facilitate the use of God's power is irrelevant. You don't need to defend Joseph Smith's use of a seer stone. I don't care that he used a seer stone, just like it doesn't bother me when people claim that they are using some object in order to help facilitate the access to God's power. The point is that all things being equal, using a stone or an object in order to heal does not automatically mean that someone is using Satan's power. Also, God heals people through the use of power or energy. Some transfer of energy or power occurs in some form when priesthood is exercised. It isn't magic.

In short, you can't use the reasoning displayed in this thread so far to condemn all energy healing or all use of objects when it comes to healing. You can't use it to justify it either, by itself. I do agree with your last paragraph except I believe it applies across the board. God does not respect persons. Principles apply in all places and in all times and in all circumstances in which the principles are in play. It does come down to the person using them. I guess I will get in to circular reasoning a bit here. So far Mcox and you have started with the premise that these people must be deceived, therefore anything that they do cannot be from God and must be from Satan. If you start with the conclusion of your argument as your premise, then of course your conclusion will be the same thing as your premise.

I'm skeptical of energy healing in general, at least the things that I have been exposed to or that I am aware of. However, I can't accept illogical arguments as a good reason to deny something. I am going to be fair as possible not just to those who are on my team, but to all people, even if I disagree with them in general. I think this is a good way of living life and of being.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Your answer implies that Joseph Smith didn't translate the Book of Mormon by the power of the Holy Ghost but rather through the power of a stone because God gave Joseph permission. Your answer also shows that you are respecter of persons. You excuse action A when it applies to one person but you condemn action A when it applies to another person. Doesn't seem fair. Did you know God is not a respecter of persons?

You last sentence is employing circular reasoning. It isn't very convincing.

Where did God give Joseph permission to use these objects, by-the-way, or are you just assuming this?

-Finrock

Apples to oranges my friend. That was a beautiful example of a false comparison.

You are wrong. You have just asserted that it is a false comparison but your assertion is meaningless at this point in time.

Please demonstrate you claim and I will consider it. If I've actually made a false comparison, I will repent.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

My responses in blue;

Now, now Johnny, no need to get defensive. Energy healing uses methods/practices that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you again. Where do the answers from muscle testing come from? Do you use rocks to heal? Do you energize your rocks in the moonlight? Do you counsel with spirits?
And for the record, I do not believe in the law of attraction. It is a law of the adversary. And yes everyone involved with energy healing has problems with spirits bothering them, their children, their home or all of the above. Have you ever had to cast out? I'm guessing yes.

Mcox,

In the interest of fairness, do you condemn Joseph Smith for using a stone and a hat to receive revelation to translate the Book of Mormon? When Joseph was viewing the stone inside of the hat and he was receiving revelation, where were the answers or revelations coming from?

-Finrock

Do you think that an Energy healer who uses a rock, claiming to heal someone and charges money for it is the same thing as Joseph Smith Jr., the Lord's true prophet, called by God to restore the church, using a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon???

Do you see no difference between an Energy Coach who has paid some $1,000.00 to learn their craft and Joseph Smith Jr. the Prophet of the Restoration?? Because as I read it, you seem to make no distinction between the two, suggesting they both are calling down the same powers of heaven, though one was the Lord's prophet who carried out his mission as a Seer and the other is a person who's learned a trade and is paid for their services.

Using a seer stone or a rock are the only thing I see in common and there is no shame in Joseph Smith using a seer stone to perform his work.


Think about this:

The rod of Aaron and the Divining Rods the Magicians used were simply wood, nothing more. However, they both were used to facilitate miracles, but I think we all agree that they called on very different powers to achieve those miracles--Moses was using God's power and Pharoah's magicians were using Satan's power, though they may not have realized who it was that gave them that power.

So, it is not the rocks or the Seer stones that hold the power, they are simply facilitators, as Elder Cook explained yesterday, and Joseph came to not need even that for receiving revelation--the difference is the person using them-- and what power or spirit is empowered through them.

I don't think that a person who uses a rock to heal someone and then charges them money for it is the same thing as Joseph Smith. However, you aren't actually addressing my post and what I wrote but instead of addressing my reasoning, you built a straw man that serves the purpose of making it appear that you have debunked my point when instead you really just tore your little straw man in to pieces.

Here is the relevant point: Joseph Smith used a stone as a medium to access God's power. From the scriptures we see many prophets who use objects as a means to facilitate access to God's power. If using a stone or some other object to facilitate access to God's power is a sure sign that something is from Satan, then this principle must apply to Joseph Smith as well. If Joseph Smith using a stone to facilitate access to God's power is not a sure sign that something is from Satan, then it cannot be a sure sign in cases where other's are using a stone or an object to facilitate access to God's power. In other words, if you or Mcox were debating an anti-Mormon who was contending that Joseph Smith was being influenced by Satan because he used a "Peep Stone" for revelation, you would defend Joseph Smith and explain why it was okay for him because (and here is the kicker) you believe Joseph Smith is a prophet. As Mcox said in his own post, he doesn't care what Joseph Smith did, Mcox would not condemn him and would support him. Mcox's answer and reaction to this whole situation is a prime example of egocentric and sociocentric reasoning. You are the one who set up a straw man. Neither I or Mcox condemned the use of Seer stones. How did seer stones even come into this? You equated an off hand remark by Mcox about energy healers and stones and then took the discussion on a tangent--as you often do. You are actually arguing an argument YOU created. You also ignored the fact that I said the seer stone is a facilitator--it's the power that's being used that matters. I'm sorry but I'm not going to be pulled into this tangent anymore so if you continue to argue on this point, I will not respond.

I am saying that principles apply universally. If something is true for one person, then given the same circumstances and the same context, it will be true for another person.This is not true; humans are not programmed robots that can be popped into any situation and will respond the same way, they are much more unpredictable, because all humans are NOT the same--they are the variable which you can't control. The fact that someone is using a stone does NOT, in and of itself, indicate that they are being influenced by Satan. The fact that someone is using a medium to facilitate access to God's power, does not mean, by itself, that they are being influenced by Satan. Otherwise, we must conclude, if we are to be fair, just, and honest, that Joseph Smith was influenced by Satan by virtue of the fact that he was using a stone or a peep stone to help with translating the Book of Mormon.Your logic is flawed, you are coming to an incorrect conclusion because you logic is not sound.

The circular reasoning is being manifested in multiple ways but I'm not going to get in to that at the moment.

The fact the Joseph Smith or anyone does not need to use a stone or some object to facilitate the use of God's power is irrelevant. You don't need to defend Joseph Smith's use of a seer stone. I don't care that he used a seer stone, just like it doesn't bother me when people claim that they are using some object in order to help facilitate the access to God's power. The point is that all things being equal, using a stone or an object in order to heal does not automatically mean that someone is using Satan's power. Also, God heals people through the use of power or energy. Some transfer of energy or power occurs in some form when priesthood is exercised. It isn't magic.You picked up on one thing Mcox said and you ran with it, making all kinds of inferences. His bringing up in passing a stone used by energy healers, you zeroed in on, and equated it EXACTLY with Joseph Smith's use of a seer stone to translate. This IS apples and oranges because the stones are different, the people are different and the purpose is different. The power Joseph used is priesthood power, which cannot be used or controlled, only on principles of righteousness(as per D&C 121). That cannot be said for Energy healing--IF it actually works and uses a REAL power, it does not work on principles of righteousness--it is a skill, taught through a manual--a course that people pay for.

I don't mean to offend, but this is frustrating that you do this. I see it often in your arguments; it is distracting because it means when you do this, you take the discussion off into a tangent that is not even relevant to what was being discussed. And you are looking at this as simply 'energy', but ignoring the fact(as taught to us in scripture and which I've already reiterated) that there is good and evil--darkness and light. That means what you call energy does not come from only one source but can come from a good source or an evil source.

In short, you can't use the reasoning displayed in this thread so far to condemn all energy healing or all use of objects when it comes to healing.This is one of those misleading tactics you use--no one said 'all'--you said that. You've set up the premise that if we don't approve of the use of stones in energy healing then we don't approve of it by Joseph Smith. You are making a false assumption and setting us up with your use of the word 'all'. You can't use it to justify it either, by itself. I do agree with your last paragraph except I believe it applies across the boardWhy am I not surprised you are over generalizing.. God does not respect persons. Principles apply in all places and in all times and in all circumstances in which the principles are in play. It does come down to the person using them. I guess I will get in to circular reasoning a bit here. So far Mcox and you have started with the premise that these people must be deceived, therefore anything that they do cannot be from God and must be from Satan. If you start with the conclusion of your argument as your premise, then of course your conclusion will be the same thing as your premise.That was not my reasoning. I did not come from a conclusion that they must be deceived so it must be from Satan. You are making an incorrect assumption about me and I'm pretty certain about Mcox as well. I looked at Energy healing and studied it out. I read alot about it and did not make up my mind. In my studies and reading on this, I started to see patterns and the 'fruits' of it. My concerns for it are because of the negative 'fruits' that I see. I don't condemn energy healing across the board, but some uses of it, I think are wrong and I think it can be spiritually dangerous for some people. Did you see the 'some' in there? Please make note of that.

I'm skeptical of energy healing in general, at least the things that I have been exposed to or that I am aware of. However, I can't accept illogical arguments as a good reason to deny something. I am going to be fair as possible not just to those who are on my team, but to all people, even if I disagree with them in general. I think this is a good way of living life and of being.
Mine and Mcox's arguments are not illogical. I'll just leave it at that.
-Finrock

[Teancum]

Now, now Johnny, no need to get defensive. Energy healing uses methods/practices that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask you again. Where do the answers from muscle testing come from? Do you use rocks to heal? Do you energize your rocks in the moonlight? Do you counsel with spirits?
And for the record, I do not believe in the law of attraction. It is a law of the adversary. And yes everyone involved with energy healing has problems with spirits bothering them, their children, their home or all of the above. Have you ever had to cast out? I'm guessing yes.

Mcox,

In the interest of fairness, do you condemn Joseph Smith for using a stone and a hat to receive revelation to translate the Book of Mormon? When Joseph was viewing the stone inside of the hat and he was receiving revelation, where were the answers or revelations coming from?

-Finrock

Do you think that an Energy healer who uses a rock, claiming to heal someone and charges money for it is the same thing as Joseph Smith Jr., the Lord's true prophet, called by God to restore the church, using a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon???

Do you see no difference between an Energy Coach who has paid some $1,000.00 to learn their craft and Joseph Smith Jr. the Prophet of the Restoration?? Because as I read it, you seem to make no distinction between the two, suggesting they both are calling down the same powers of heaven, though one was the Lord's prophet who carried out his mission as a Seer and the other is a person who's learned a trade and is paid for their services.

Using a seer stone or a rock are the only thing I see in common and there is no shame in Joseph Smith using a seer stone to perform his work.


Think about this:

The rod of Aaron and the Divining Rods the Magicians used were simply wood, nothing more. However, they both were used to facilitate miracles, but I think we all agree that they called on very different powers to achieve those miracles--Moses was using God's power and Pharoah's magicians were using Satan's power, though they may not have realized who it was that gave them that power.

So, it is not the rocks or the Seer stones that hold the power, they are simply facilitators, as Elder Cook explained yesterday, and Joseph came to not need even that for receiving revelation--the difference is the person using them-- and what power or spirit is empowered through them.

I don't think that a person who uses a rock to heal someone and then charges them money for it is the same thing as Joseph Smith. However, you aren't actually addressing my post and what I wrote but instead of addressing my reasoning, you built a straw man that serves the purpose of making it appear that you have debunked my point when instead you really just tore your little straw man in to pieces.

Here is the relevant point: Joseph Smith used a stone as a medium to access God's power. From the scriptures we see many prophets who use objects as a means to facilitate access to God's power. If using a stone or some other object to facilitate access to God's power is a sure sign that something is from Satan, then this principle must apply to Joseph Smith as well. If Joseph Smith using a stone to facilitate access to God's power is not a sure sign that something is from Satan, then it cannot be a sure sign in cases where other's are using a stone or an object to facilitate access to God's power. In other words, if you or Mcox were debating an anti-Mormon who was contending that Joseph Smith was being influenced by Satan because he used a "Peep Stone" for revelation, you would defend Joseph Smith and explain why it was okay for him because (and here is the kicker) you believe Joseph Smith is a prophet. As Mcox said in his own post, he doesn't care what Joseph Smith did, Mcox would not condemn him and would support him. Mcox's answer and reaction to this whole situation is a prime example of egocentric and sociocentric reasoning.

I am saying that principles apply universally. If something is true for one person, then given the same circumstances and the same context, it will be true for another person. The fact that someone is using a stone does NOT, in and of itself, indicate that they are being influenced by Satan. The fact that someone is using a medium to facilitate access to God's power, does not mean, by itself, that they are being influenced by Satan. Otherwise, we must conclude, if we are to be fair, just, and honest, that Joseph Smith was influenced by Satan by virtue of the fact that he was using a stone or a peep stone to help with translating the Book of Mormon.

The circular reasoning is being manifested in multiple ways but I'm not going to get in to that at the moment.

The fact the Joseph Smith or anyone does not need to use a stone or some object to facilitate the use of God's power is irrelevant. You don't need to defend Joseph Smith's use of a seer stone. I don't care that he used a seer stone, just like it doesn't bother me when people claim that they are using some object in order to help facilitate the access to God's power. The point is that all things being equal, using a stone or an object in order to heal does not automatically mean that someone is using Satan's power. Also, God heals people through the use of power or energy. Some transfer of energy or power occurs in some form when priesthood is exercised. It isn't magic.

In short, you can't use the reasoning displayed in this thread so far to condemn all energy healing or all use of objects when it comes to healing. You can't use it to justify it either, by itself. I do agree with your last paragraph except I believe it applies across the board. God does not respect persons. Principles apply in all places and in all times and in all circumstances in which the principles are in play. It does come down to the person using them. I guess I will get in to circular reasoning a bit here. So far Mcox and you have started with the premise that these people must be deceived, therefore anything that they do cannot be from God and must be from Satan. If you start with the conclusion of your argument as your premise, then of course your conclusion will be the same thing as your premise.

I'm skeptical of energy healing in general, at least the things that I have been exposed to or that I am aware of. However, I can't accept illogical arguments as a good reason to deny something. I am going to be fair as possible not just to those who are on my team, but to all people, even if I disagree with them in general. I think this is a good way of living life and of being.

-Finrock

Let me throw a thought into the mix here and see how it reverberates.

It is my belief that one MUST be exposed to the dark to know the difference between it and light. Moses was exposed to both and he could then discern the difference. I do believe Joseph Smith was also, so that he could then rely on God's gift and power (which he lost for a season - another side topic, but might be related). I have been exposed to both, and have discerned that energy healing does indeed lead one away from Christ in favor of "energy healing". I have had Priesthood blessings answered and healing demonstrated that baffled the doctors. My stgruggle comes with me glorifying God and acknowledging his hand and blessings in all things - to the chagrin of the doctors sometimes.

Faith in Christ heals if it is in accordance with God's will. Faith in energy healing heals, but takes no regard for God's will, or of rendering glory to God, but takes the glory to itself and presents the appearance of "forcing the healing" - which is why it is so appealing - it gets results. The same goes for the law of attraction, the secret, etc. etc. etc. This MO is the same that satan used in the war in Heaven.

Those who have the "Gift to Heal" - mentioned in the spiritual gifts in Moroni 10 - might have different ways that this gift is administered, but it is of God if done through his appointed way, power, authority, and through his will. Thanks, Glory and honor be to God!

[braingrunt]

It's a sorta fine thought except MD's usually don't glorify god either. Which aspects of reality can we safely use to our benefit without running afoul of evil.

Ps I'm not comfortable with energy healing but so far I've avoided really meditating on the topic.

[Finrock]

You are the one who set up a straw man.

Preposterous! :))

Neither I or Mcox condemned the use of Seer stones. How did seer stones even come into this?

I didn't say that you did. Show me exactly in my text where I asserted that you two condemned the use of Seer Stones? Stone in a hat and the seer stone are the same thing. (https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-morm ... g&old=true)

You equated an off hand remark by Mcox about energy healers and stones and then took the discussion on a tangent--as you often do. You are actually arguing an argument YOU created.

Are you Mcox's lawyer? Did you consult with him/her before you posted? Let Mcox speak for Mcox and you speak for you. I don't have faith in your mind reading skills...sorry. :))

Also, it's important for you to recognize that when you devolve in to ad hominems, you are exposing the weakness of your position and revealing your character. A tip for you!

You also ignored the fact that I said the seer stone is a facilitator--it's the power that's being used that matters. I'm sorry but I'm not going to be pulled into this tangent anymore so if you continue to argue on this point, I will not respond.

I did not ignore this fact that you said that I ignored. I said it does come down to the person who is using the objects. You apparently did not read what I wrote thoroughly. Whatever you mean, I agree that you shouldn't get pulled in to tangents. I certainly am not going off on a tangent.

Clearly, using stones or objects does not mean that one is influenced by Satan.

This is not true; humans are not programmed robots that can be popped into any situation and will respond the same way, they are much more unpredictable, because all humans are NOT the same--they are the variable which you can't control.

What I said is true. Believe it sister! Given the same circumstances and the same context, a principle or a rule will apply across the board. The fallacy that is being employed and which I am pointing out and addressing is the fallacy of special pleading. You are trying to say that Joseph Smith was different and therefore his use of a stone or seer stone or peep stone is justified, whereas energy healer's use of a stone or some object to access God's power is not justified. Without appealing to your faith, you can't justify your claim.

In your post you assert that Joseph Smith was different from energy healers because they are charging money and have a craft that they have learned. Obviously I agree with this in the sense that Joseph Smith did not charge money nor was he attempting to heal anyone with the stone. Although using a stone or a seer stone is a craft or something that you can learn and a skill that can be acquired. However, what you are neglecting, and this is where your straw man gets built because you focus on something that is obviously different and you don't address this possibility, but it is possible for a person who is an "energy healer" to not charge money for their services and they did not go to school or learn this from any one, and further the person may be a good person who believes and follows Jesus Christ and is accessing God's power through the principles of righteousness but they are using a stone to facilitate (just like you say about Joseph Smith) their access to God's power. Your reasoning does not allow for this possibility. You attempt to generalize energy healing and you speak about it in an unfavorable light or in a light that allows you to make an argument that you can defend. In order to fairly address you position, you must consider that there are people who are using a stone in the same way that Joseph Smith did. It is only your ego- and socio-centric reasoning that prevents you from considering this possibility. In order to justify your special pleading you must appeal to your faith and then deny, through circular reasoning, that the same principles apply to others the same as Joseph Smith because Joseph Smith was a prophet and therefore he is allowed to access God's power through the use of a stone, but others who claim to be energy healers cannot possibly access God's power through a stone and must be counterfeit because they are not prophets. That is essentially what I see you and Mcox saying.

Your logic is flawed, you are coming to an incorrect conclusion because you logic is not sound.

Thus proclaimeth AI2.0 by appealing to another circular argument? Irony! :))

You picked up on one thing Mcox said and you ran with it, making all kinds of inferences. His bringing up in passing a stone used by energy healers, you zeroed in on, and equated it EXACTLY with Joseph Smith's use of a seer stone to translate. This IS apples and oranges because the stones are different, the people are different and the purpose is different. The power Joseph used is priesthood power, which cannot be used or controlled, only on principles of righteousness(as per D&C 121). That cannot be said for Energy healing--IF it actually works and uses a REAL power, it does not work on principles of righteousness--it is a skill, taught through a manual--a course that people pay for.

I don't mean to offend, but this is frustrating that you do this. I see it often in your arguments; it is distracting because it means when you do this, you take the discussion off into a tangent that is not even relevant to what was being discussed. And you are looking at this as simply 'energy', but ignoring the fact(as taught to us in scripture and which I've already reiterated) that there is good and evil--darkness and light. That means what you call energy does not come from only one source but can come from a good source or an evil source.

It is impossible for you to offend me, by the way. Any ad hominems and attacks against my character only reflect on you and they phase me or my position not one bit. Again, you seem to be speaking for Mcox here. Just focus on your words and speak for yourself. It makes it easier and its more reliable.

This is one of those misleading tactics you use--no one said 'all'--you said that. You've set up the premise that if we don't approve of the use of stones in energy healing then we don't approve of it by Joseph Smith.

I most certainly did not say this. Read above for what my position is.

That was not my reasoning. I did not come from a conclusion that they must be deceived so it must be from Satan. You are making an incorrect assumption about me and I'm pretty certain about Mcox as well. I looked at Energy healing and studied it out. I read alot about it and did not make up my mind. In my studies and reading on this, I started to see patterns and the 'fruits' of it. My concerns for it are because of the negative 'fruits' that I see. I don't condemn energy healing across the board, but some uses of it, I think are wrong and I think it can be spiritually dangerous for some people. Did you see the 'some' in there? Please make note of that.

So you believe some energy healing is okay? That would be news to me and I would wholeheartedly take the correction if true!

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

It's a sorta fine thought except MD's usually don't glorify god either. Which aspects of reality can we safely use to our benefit without running afoul of evil.

Ps I'm not comfortable with energy healing but so far I've avoided really meditating on the topic.

MD's aren't making the same claims as Energy healers for where their abilities to treat come from. They don't usually claim to use god's power to heal people, they claim their education and training in the field of medicine for their skills in treating illness.

[AI2.0]

Some seem to take issue with my emphasis on Energy healing in this letter, but I simply shared the contents of the letter. It was the Stake Pres. who singled out energy healing;

From the Letter:

.."All of these people are involved, to some extent, with holistic healing, energy treatments, foot zoning, etc. This interest is one of the tools that [blank] used to recruit these followers.......Their common interest in the holistic areas described above provided a level of trust and friendship that opened the door for these members to be recruited. Holistic healing and energy treatments seem to be the "gateway drug" used to find recruits".

After speaking with these people he came to this conclusion so for these people who fell into apostate practices and beliefs, energy healing was identified by their Stake Pres. as a problem. Given this conclusion, I think any LDS members who are involved with Energy healing or considering it, should reconsider and rethink if this is a good idea.

[Rose Garden]

It's a sorta fine thought except MD's usually don't glorify god either. Which aspects of reality can we safely use to our benefit without running afoul of evil.

Ps I'm not comfortable with energy healing but so far I've avoided really meditating on the topic.

MD's aren't making the same claims as Energy healers for where their abilities to treat come from. They don't usually claim to use god's power to heal people, they claim their education and training in the field of medicine for their skills in treating illness.

Honestly, from what I understand most energy healers don't claim to use God's power either. That is more in the LDS community. If I'm understanding correctly, it's more common to attribute the power to "the universe." I think those LDS who have embraced energy healing have attributed the power to God instead of the universe.

I would note that a huge array of practices are all lumped under energy healing. There are some practices that are truly bizarre but most are fairly mundane. I've played a bit with energy, such as by creating an energy ball between my hands, and I know there is power that we can feel (just like the wind) but not see. However, I think there are a lot of erroneous concepts out there about energy manipulation.

I don't think manipulation of energy is either good or bad in and of itself. I think it is like many things in this world, it can be used for good or for bad and depends mainly on the heart of the person using it. When Jesus commanded the wind and rain to stop, he was manipulating the energy. I wouldn't say energy healing is necessarily calling on the power of God myself but I would say you can do it in a godly way or in ungodly ways. I think that charging money for it makes it very difficult to keep your priorities straight.

I've been following this thread trying to get a handle on my thoughts on energy healing. I've only just now been able to do so.

[Joel]

even a placebo is totally legit for the person it works for

[JohnnyL]

It's a sorta fine thought except MD's usually don't glorify god either. Which aspects of reality can we safely use to our benefit without running afoul of evil.

Ps I'm not comfortable with energy healing but so far I've avoided really meditating on the topic.

MD's aren't making the same claims as Energy healers for where their abilities to treat come from. They don't usually claim to use god's power to heal people, they claim their education and training in the field of medicine for their skills in treating illness.

Right, they claim God never had a hand in it. Which is worse?
And which energy healers are you talking about? You've done a nice clump and dump here... :-w

[JohnnyL]

even a placebo is totally legit for the person it works for

Absolutely!! So is it from God or Satan? Why does it work for some, and not others?

[JohnnyL]

Some seem to take issue with my emphasis on Energy healing in this letter, but I simply shared the contents of the letter. It was the Stake Pres. who singled out energy healing;

From the Letter:

.."All of these people are involved, to some extent, with holistic healing, energy treatments, foot zoning, etc. This interest is one of the tools that [blank] used to recruit these followers.......Their common interest in the holistic areas described above provided a level of trust and friendship that opened the door for these members to be recruited. Holistic healing and energy treatments seem to be the "gateway drug" used to find recruits".

After speaking with these people he came to this conclusion so for these people who fell into apostate practices and beliefs, energy healing was identified by their Stake Pres. as a problem. Given this conclusion, I think any LDS members who are involved with Energy healing or considering it, should reconsider and rethink if this is a good idea.

Um... "holistic healing, energy treatments, foot zoning, etc."--how is that all energy healing?? As I said, it's not a gateway, it's a way to connect and feel people out. People who already had weird beliefs about some things, like multiple mortal experiences, reincarnation, past lives, etc.

[Joel]

even a placebo is totally legit for the person it works for

Absolutely!! So is it from God or Satan? Why does it work for some, and not others?

Depends on the person's perception of the placebo