Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

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bethany
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by bethany »

DesertWonderer wrote: April 10th, 2017, 2:36 pm http://www.csicop.org/si/show/magnetic_ ... never_dies

Magnetic Healing: An Old Scam That Never Dies

Email
Column
Steven Novella
Skeptical Inquirer Volume 35.1, January/February 2011
The notion that magnets can be used for healing has existed since humans discovered them.

Magnetic charms, bracelets, insoles, and braces remain popular and are sold with claims that they improve athletic performance, relieve arthritis pain, increase energy, and pretty much treat whatever symptoms you might have. These products may seem modern and high-tech, but similar devices and claims have been around for centuries....
Completely ignorant. Magnetic therapy pulls in big bucks even for big pharma. You can pay TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS for this treatment for your depression or you can buy emotion code for $20 & pull a magnet off the fridge. Even the FREE magnet that you get from your realtor.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to- ... b5e8e9068e

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Sarah
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Posts: 6702

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Sarah »

Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Finrock »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 2:08 pm Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.
You say, "You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing.""

Why do you think it is Satan that is doing the releasing? Are you just saying that it's possible that Satan is doing the releasing or are you saying that you know Satan is the one doing the releasing? And, just for the record, I have no idea what these procedures are, how they are intended to work, or anything like that. I would just like to understand better what you mean.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Finrock »

DesertWonderer wrote: April 26th, 2017, 12:27 pm EH heals nothing.

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D.

Subtle forces can lead intelligent people (both patients and therapists) to think that a treatment has helped someone when it has not. This is true for new treatments in scientific medicine, as well as for nostrums in folk medicine, fringe practices in "alternative medicine," and the ministrations of faith healers.

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.

There are at least seven reasons why people may erroneously conclude that an ineffective therapy works:
1. The disease may have run its natural course. Many diseases are self-limiting. If the condition is not chronic or fatal, the body's own recuperative processes usually restore the sufferer to health. Thus, to demonstrate that a therapy is effective, its proponents must show that the number of patients listed as improved exceeds the number expected to recover without any treatment at all (or that they recover reliably faster than if left untreated). Without detailed records of successes and failures for a large enough number of patients with the same complaint, someone cannot legitimately claim to have exceeded the published norms for unaided recovery.

2. Many diseases are cyclical. Such conditions as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, allergies, and gastrointestinal problems normally have "ups and downs." Naturally, sufferers tend to seek therapy during the downturn of any given cycle. In this way, a bogus treatment will have repeated opportunities to coincide with upturns that would have happened anyway.

3. The placebo effect may be responsible. Through suggestion, belief, expectancy, cognitive reinterpretation, and diversion of attention, patients given biologically useless treatments often experience measurable relief. Some placebo responses produce actual changes in the physical condition; others are subjective changes that make patients feel better even though there has been no objective change in the underlying pathology.

4. People who hedge their bets credit the wrong thing. If improvement occurs after someone has had both "alternative" and science-based treatment, the fringe practice often gets a disproportionate share of the credit.

5. The original diagnosis or prognosis may have been incorrect. Scientifically trained physicians are not infallible. A mistaken diagnosis, followed by a trip to a shrine or an "alternative" healer, can lead to a glowing testimonial for curing a condition that would have resolved by itself. In other cases, the diagnosis may be correct but the time frame, which is inherently difficult to predict, might prove inaccurate.

6. Temporary mood improvement can be confused with cure. Alternative healers often have forceful, charismatic personalities. To the extent that patients are swept up by the messianic aspects of "alternative medicine," psychological uplift may ensue.

7. Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in "alternative medicine" can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and "face" to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most "alternative" therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.

Buyer Beware!

The job of distinguishing real from spurious causal relationships requires well designed studies and logical abstractions from large bodies of data. Many sources of error can mislead people who rely on intuition or informal reasoning to analyze complex events. Before agreeing to any kind of treatment, you should feel confident that it makes sense and has been scientifically validated through studies that control for placebo responses, compliance effects, and judgmental errors. You should be very wary if the "evidence" consists merely of testimonials, self-published pamphlets or books, or items from the popular media.
As before...

This article is also targeting and in the same breath invalidating priesthood blessings/healings (see the part bolded in the quote by me).

If you are using this article to invalidate EH, then you must also accept its conclusions as it applies to priesthood blessings.

So, if you are using this article to support your conclusion that EH heals nothing, you must also conclude that priesthood blessings heal nothing.

-Finrock

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Sarah
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Posts: 6702

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Sarah »

Finrock wrote: April 26th, 2017, 3:04 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 2:08 pm Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.
You say, "You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing.""

Why do you think it is Satan that is doing the releasing? Are you just saying that it's possible that Satan is doing the releasing or are you saying that you know Satan is the one doing the releasing? And, just for the record, I have no idea what these procedures are, how they are intended to work, or anything like that. I would just like to understand better what you mean.

-Finrock
I'm just saying that it's possible, I don't know for sure. My position is that I can't see how someone could absolutely rule out that possibility that he COULD be involved.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9830

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by JohnnyL »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 11:34 am
JohnnyL wrote: April 26th, 2017, 11:16 am So, here's this:
Moroni 10:15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues;
16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues.
Yes, Moroni is talking about SPIRITUAL GIFTS here, and since about every con-EH believes that since healing is a spiritual gift--given that it is mentioned in the gifts--

what do we think of everyone who has learned a second language?

If they are nonmembers, we are to divine, according to the con-EH argument, that their gift is from Satan, yes?

And if they are members--ESPECIALLY if they learned it on their mission, a SERVICE to God--by the same argument, they are NOT allowed to use it to make money, but only serve, yes?

Any different points of view, con-EHers?
I don't think anyone would define healing simply as a spiritual gift. Your body heals itself when you get cut. That is not a "spiritual gift." Eating good foods helps the body heal. This is also not a spiritual gift (except perhaps having the gift of wisdom to actually do what is right for your body).

Likewise, I don't think anyone would describe learning a new language as a spiritual gift necessarily. Speaking it for the benefit of foreigners, as Joseph Smith said, is the purpose of the gift of tongues.
I agree with you, but many don't/ haven't. I'm just asking those who have this double standard what their answer is.

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Sarah
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Posts: 6702

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Sarah »

Finrock wrote: April 26th, 2017, 3:13 pm
DesertWonderer wrote: April 26th, 2017, 12:27 pm EH heals nothing.

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D.

Subtle forces can lead intelligent people (both patients and therapists) to think that a treatment has helped someone when it has not. This is true for new treatments in scientific medicine, as well as for nostrums in folk medicine, fringe practices in "alternative medicine," and the ministrations of faith healers.

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.

There are at least seven reasons why people may erroneously conclude that an ineffective therapy works:
1. The disease may have run its natural course. Many diseases are self-limiting. If the condition is not chronic or fatal, the body's own recuperative processes usually restore the sufferer to health. Thus, to demonstrate that a therapy is effective, its proponents must show that the number of patients listed as improved exceeds the number expected to recover without any treatment at all (or that they recover reliably faster than if left untreated). Without detailed records of successes and failures for a large enough number of patients with the same complaint, someone cannot legitimately claim to have exceeded the published norms for unaided recovery.

2. Many diseases are cyclical. Such conditions as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, allergies, and gastrointestinal problems normally have "ups and downs." Naturally, sufferers tend to seek therapy during the downturn of any given cycle. In this way, a bogus treatment will have repeated opportunities to coincide with upturns that would have happened anyway.

3. The placebo effect may be responsible. Through suggestion, belief, expectancy, cognitive reinterpretation, and diversion of attention, patients given biologically useless treatments often experience measurable relief. Some placebo responses produce actual changes in the physical condition; others are subjective changes that make patients feel better even though there has been no objective change in the underlying pathology.

4. People who hedge their bets credit the wrong thing. If improvement occurs after someone has had both "alternative" and science-based treatment, the fringe practice often gets a disproportionate share of the credit.

5. The original diagnosis or prognosis may have been incorrect. Scientifically trained physicians are not infallible. A mistaken diagnosis, followed by a trip to a shrine or an "alternative" healer, can lead to a glowing testimonial for curing a condition that would have resolved by itself. In other cases, the diagnosis may be correct but the time frame, which is inherently difficult to predict, might prove inaccurate.

6. Temporary mood improvement can be confused with cure. Alternative healers often have forceful, charismatic personalities. To the extent that patients are swept up by the messianic aspects of "alternative medicine," psychological uplift may ensue.

7. Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in "alternative medicine" can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and "face" to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most "alternative" therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.

Buyer Beware!

The job of distinguishing real from spurious causal relationships requires well designed studies and logical abstractions from large bodies of data. Many sources of error can mislead people who rely on intuition or informal reasoning to analyze complex events. Before agreeing to any kind of treatment, you should feel confident that it makes sense and has been scientifically validated through studies that control for placebo responses, compliance effects, and judgmental errors. You should be very wary if the "evidence" consists merely of testimonials, self-published pamphlets or books, or items from the popular media.
As before...

This article is also targeting and in the same breath invalidating priesthood blessings/healings (see the part bolded in the quote by me).

If you are using this article to invalidate EH, then you must also accept its conclusions as it applies to priesthood blessings.

So, if you are using this article to support your conclusion that EH heals nothing, you must also conclude that priesthood blessings heal nothing.

-Finrock
And for this reason too is why the Lord has given us the proper signs to use to invoke His power. When we try to invoke the power of the body or the unconscious mind using words or others signs for example, how does that work?

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9830

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by JohnnyL »

DesertWonderer wrote: April 26th, 2017, 12:27 pm EH heals nothing.

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work
Ah, once more, such wonderful input, DesertWonderer, who will continue to wander in a desert of knowledge, and wonder, until he actually desires to pull up his sleeves and learn.

Of course I didn't read this. Why? Been there, done that, many many times. How about you? B-) It's like reading a minister's article about praying about the Book of Mormon doesn't work, ya know?

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Finrock »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 3:17 pm
Finrock wrote: April 26th, 2017, 3:04 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 2:08 pm Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.
You say, "You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing.""

Why do you think it is Satan that is doing the releasing? Are you just saying that it's possible that Satan is doing the releasing or are you saying that you know Satan is the one doing the releasing? And, just for the record, I have no idea what these procedures are, how they are intended to work, or anything like that. I would just like to understand better what you mean.

-Finrock
I'm just saying that it's possible, I don't know for sure. My position is that I can't see how someone could absolutely rule out that possibility that he COULD be involved.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

-Finrock

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9830

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by JohnnyL »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 2:08 pm Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.
References, or a personal feeling or doubt?

Is there any communication that cannot be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits? (Ever had an argument of misunderstanding with your spouse? ;) ) Yet, was it really "intercepted" and "acted upon by evil spirits"? If Satan can hear everything we say, isn't it possible for him to intercept and act on our words? Do we just stop talking, then?

Why would Satan release negative emotions and other negative things, so often, for so many people? Including unclean spirits?

Your body does it (yes, scientific studies, too), and more than likely, more than just your physical body, too. I wish I could know it all consciously, but... nope. But like Finrock said, it's possible there's a divine purpose in not being able to remember and know so many things at once; if so, I imagine many people would be bound and destroyed by sin (received and given) long before healing would occur.

As I've mentioned before, there are many strange natural laws in mortality (read the Life thread for some of that, especially resurrection salt).

Hypnosis can be bad, and it can be good. Some tools can be more dangerous than others (like driving a car is more dangerous than walking).

Do you believe that intuition is evil? What's the difference between inspiration and intuition?

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Sarah
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Sarah »

JohnnyL wrote: April 26th, 2017, 3:48 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 2:08 pm Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.
References, or a personal feeling or doubt?

Is there any communication that cannot be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits? (Ever had an argument of misunderstanding with your spouse? ;) ) Yet, was it really "intercepted" and "acted upon by evil spirits"? If Satan can hear everything we say, isn't it possible for him to intercept and act on our words? Do we just stop talking, then?

Why would Satan release negative emotions and other negative things, so often, for so many people? Including unclean spirits?

Your body does it (yes, scientific studies, too), and more than likely, more than just your physical body, too. I wish I could know it all consciously, but... nope. But like Finrock said, it's possible there's a divine purpose in not being able to remember and know so many things at once; if so, I imagine many people would be bound and destroyed by sin (received and given) long before healing would occur.

As I've mentioned before, there are many strange natural laws in mortality (read the Life thread for some of that, especially resurrection salt).

Hypnosis can be bad, and it can be good. Some tools can be more dangerous than others (like driving a car is more dangerous than walking).

Do you believe that intuition is evil? What's the difference between inspiration and intuition?
My thoughts will have to wait - must run to do Activity Days!

Chris
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Posts: 319

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Chris »

So here is how I see this. Satan will twist anything he can to pull people away from Absolute truth and absolute power, which is having Faith in Jesus Christ & His church and priesthood!

Duplicates that the devil loves to use as almost a gateway drug to pull people away from truth are words like Karma, The universe, The secret, Energy Healing etc etc.

God can and will heal through the priesthood if we have faith and trust in him. The light of Christ is energy, light etc..... it is in everything.

If we turn to god with FAITH it will happen.

HOWEVER

I don't see anything wrong with PRAYING and then using doctors, herbs, medicine and a whole lot of positive thinking and faith in Christ. That is a wining combination. Going to someone to energize you is dangerous, because it takes your eyes off the mark, who is Jesus Christ. It reminds me of voodoo or something that is packed much cleaner, prettier and nicer.

I believe in positive thinking and think it can do a lot of good for your mood and also for your physical body. But don't let the devil deceive you into putting your faith into something that takes away from Christ and his true healing power FAITH & PRIESTHOOD. This kind goeth not out but by fasting and prayer-

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mirkwood
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by mirkwood »

Finrock wrote: April 26th, 2017, 12:20 pm Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH. :-?

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Sarah
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Sarah »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 4:09 pm
JohnnyL wrote: April 26th, 2017, 3:48 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 2:08 pm Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.
References, or a personal feeling or doubt?

Is there any communication that cannot be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits? (Ever had an argument of misunderstanding with your spouse? ;) ) Yet, was it really "intercepted" and "acted upon by evil spirits"? If Satan can hear everything we say, isn't it possible for him to intercept and act on our words? Do we just stop talking, then?

Why would Satan release negative emotions and other negative things, so often, for so many people? Including unclean spirits?

Your body does it (yes, scientific studies, too), and more than likely, more than just your physical body, too. I wish I could know it all consciously, but... nope. But like Finrock said, it's possible there's a divine purpose in not being able to remember and know so many things at once; if so, I imagine many people would be bound and destroyed by sin (received and given) long before healing would occur.

As I've mentioned before, there are many strange natural laws in mortality (read the Life thread for some of that, especially resurrection salt).

Hypnosis can be bad, and it can be good. Some tools can be more dangerous than others (like driving a car is more dangerous than walking).

Do you believe that intuition is evil? What's the difference between inspiration and intuition?
My thoughts will have to wait - must run to do Activity Days!
I'll start with the last question - intuition - I don't usually use that word as part of my vocabulary, so my definition would be somewhere along the lines of what you feel is right, like what we all feel having the light of Christ as part of us. I would put "best guess" in the same category. And I wouldn't say that it is evil. Inspiration is a term I use to describe thoughts I receive from the Holy Ghost. If I was having thoughts and feeling from Satan and his followers I would call that temptation or false influences.

You gave the example of how some behaviors are more dangerous than others, like driving vs. walking, and I agree that just because we can be influenced doesn't mean we should stop that behavior. For example, I am a lot more susceptible to evil spirits while I am sleeping than while I am awake. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't sleep, but it does mean that I need to pray for protection as the scriptures teach us, and be aware of what is going on so I can expel the evil when it comes.

And this is one reason I think we should avoid having a healer intentionally place us in a state that is not fully awake, aware, or accountable, in order to influence or gain information. These techniques are indeed more dangerous in opening the door to evil influence.

When you have an argument with someone, you are putting yourself in an angry state or giving way to that temptation and I know from experience that it will only get worse if you don't repent of that sin of being angry with someone. So yes, avoid raising your voice as it invites evil to you. The point being, that some forms of communication should be avoided.

We are promised to always have the spirit with us as we keep God's commandments, and that is the influence we strive to have. So if someone tells me that one of the "modalities" includes the healer receiving thoughts in his or her mind, then the question must be, is it from the Holy Ghost, or from another spirit? I don't believe that these thoughts can somehow be transmitted mind to mind with no outside influence involved.

If a person is asking or commanding the body/mind/spirit to do something, then what power is making it happen. It is not the body/mind/spirit unless there is a conscious use of agency going on. Everything acts or is acted upon, so if the patient is not acting, but is being acted upon, then for sure it is either the good spirit or the bad. I don't see how your words have that much power unless they are key-words and signs.

Regarding your question as to why would Satan cast out his own spirit, or release negative emotions, or heal someone. The only answer I can give, and have see evidence of, is so that faith can be built in his power. I believe that evil spirits would do this if they knew it would help that person stray further away from the true gospel. The other option is that there indeed are some techniques that these spirits don't like and they are leaving, but if those techniques involve prayer, or using the Lord's name, and someone is casting devils out for money, I think that is using the Lord's name in vain, or without his authority.

JohnnyL
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by JohnnyL »

Chris wrote: April 26th, 2017, 4:34 pm So here is how I see this. Satan will twist anything he can to pull people away from Absolute truth and absolute power, which is having Faith in Jesus Christ & His church and priesthood!

Duplicates that the devil loves to use as almost a gateway drug to pull people away from truth are words like Karma, The universe, The secret, Energy Healing etc etc.

God can and will heal through the priesthood if we have faith and trust in him. The light of Christ is energy, light etc..... it is in everything.

If we turn to god with FAITH it will happen.

HOWEVER

I don't see anything wrong with PRAYING and then using doctors, herbs, medicine and a whole lot of positive thinking and faith in Christ. That is a wining combination. Going to someone to energize you is dangerous, because it takes your eyes off the mark, who is Jesus Christ. It reminds me of voodoo or something that is packed much cleaner, prettier and nicer.

I believe in positive thinking and think it can do a lot of good for your mood and also for your physical body. But don't let the devil deceive you into putting your faith into something that takes away from Christ and his true healing power FAITH & PRIESTHOOD. This kind goeth not out but by fasting and prayer-
No offense, Chris, but this is rehash of most every other con-EHer in this thread. Responses have been given for the past seven or so pages, so I infer that you haven't read. No response.

JohnnyL
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by JohnnyL »

mirkwood wrote: April 26th, 2017, 8:18 pm
Finrock wrote: April 26th, 2017, 12:20 pm Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH. :-?
Wait for it...
Oh MYYYY! Yes, it is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE red flag, all beware, now we can know for surety that it is of ... SATAN. <gasps>

I am completely comfortable with what I do, however, you are not. #-o

Seriously, do you have no connection to the internet? Are you unable to read? Are you incapable of using a search page? Are you incapable of using youtube?

This is pitiful trolling.
Have you ever paid for EH? No? Then we know your bias against it. :-? :ymsick:

Finrock
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Finrock »

mirkwood wrote: April 26th, 2017, 8:18 pm
Finrock wrote: April 26th, 2017, 12:20 pm Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH. :-?
I agree that if someone is earning a living from something they will likely have a bias towards it or in favor of it. However, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the things that are being said regarding EH. The same can be said about doctors who support their craft or people who depend on doctors for their health. Everyone has a bias to some degree in something. You would have to demonstrate how his bias is affecting his reasoning in a way that would invalidate his reasoning.

-Finrock

Chris
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Chris »

JohnnyL wrote: April 26th, 2017, 9:36 pm
Chris wrote: April 26th, 2017, 4:34 pm So here is how I see this. Satan will twist anything he can to pull people away from Absolute truth and absolute power, which is having Faith in Jesus Christ & His church and priesthood!

Duplicates that the devil loves to use as almost a gateway drug to pull people away from truth are words like Karma, The universe, The secret, Energy Healing etc etc.

God can and will heal through the priesthood if we have faith and trust in him. The light of Christ is energy, light etc..... it is in everything.

If we turn to god with FAITH it will happen.

HOWEVER

I don't see anything wrong with PRAYING and then using doctors, herbs, medicine and a whole lot of positive thinking and faith in Christ. That is a wining combination. Going to someone to energize you is dangerous, because it takes your eyes off the mark, who is Jesus Christ. It reminds me of voodoo or something that is packed much cleaner, prettier and nicer.

I believe in positive thinking and think it can do a lot of good for your mood and also for your physical body. But don't let the devil deceive you into putting your faith into something that takes away from Christ and his true healing power FAITH & PRIESTHOOD. This kind goeth not out but by fasting and prayer-
No offense, Chris, but this is rehash of most every other con-EHer in this thread. Responses have been given for the past seven or so pages, so I infer that you haven't read. No response.
Does that make it not true?

JohnnyL
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by JohnnyL »

Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 9:05 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 4:09 pm
JohnnyL wrote: April 26th, 2017, 3:48 pm
Sarah wrote: April 26th, 2017, 2:08 pm Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.
References, or a personal feeling or doubt?

Is there any communication that cannot be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits? (Ever had an argument of misunderstanding with your spouse? ;) ) Yet, was it really "intercepted" and "acted upon by evil spirits"? If Satan can hear everything we say, isn't it possible for him to intercept and act on our words? Do we just stop talking, then?

Why would Satan release negative emotions and other negative things, so often, for so many people? Including unclean spirits?

Your body does it (yes, scientific studies, too), and more than likely, more than just your physical body, too. I wish I could know it all consciously, but... nope. But like Finrock said, it's possible there's a divine purpose in not being able to remember and know so many things at once; if so, I imagine many people would be bound and destroyed by sin (received and given) long before healing would occur.

As I've mentioned before, there are many strange natural laws in mortality (read the Life thread for some of that, especially resurrection salt).

Hypnosis can be bad, and it can be good. Some tools can be more dangerous than others (like driving a car is more dangerous than walking).

Do you believe that intuition is evil? What's the difference between inspiration and intuition?
We are promised to always have the spirit with us as we keep God's commandments, and that is the influence we strive to have. So if someone tells me that one of the "modalities" includes the healer receiving thoughts in his or her mind, then the question must be, is it from the Holy Ghost, or from another spirit? I don't believe that these thoughts can somehow be transmitted mind to mind with no outside influence involved.
I think you answered that with your intuition answer.
If a person is asking or commanding the body/mind/spirit to do something, then what power is making it happen. It is not the body/mind/spirit unless there is a conscious use of agency going on. Everything acts or is acted upon, so if the patient is not acting, but is being acted upon, then for sure it is either the good spirit or the bad. I don't see how your words have that much power unless they are key-words and signs.
As I said before, there generally IS a conscious use of agency going on.

When you take herbs, do they act on you, or do you act on them?

What do you believe about the third spirit that Joseph Smith spoke about?

Words are powerful! "God spoke..." and everything follows from that. Words guide thought and intent. Lots of studies and experiments show some pretty amazing things with that.

If you don't see, I would suggest watching or reading up on the topic, especially how it relates to EH.

Regarding your question as to why would Satan cast out his own spirit, or release negative emotions, or heal someone. The only answer I can give, and have see evidence of, is so that faith can be built in his power. I believe that evil spirits would do this if they knew it would help that person stray further away from the true gospel. The other option is that there indeed are some techniques that these spirits don't like and they are leaving, but if those techniques involve prayer, or using the Lord's name, and someone is casting devils out for money, I think that is using the Lord's name in vain, or without his authority.
So there's a man who helps people overcome pornography addiction, especially LDS. When that happens (often in 1-2 sessions), his clients go back to church and do much better at living the gospel overall (not hard to imagine, right?). In addition, many people who experience some EH forget they ever had a problem that you helped them with (it's called "the apex effect"). If that were all Satan, how would that serve him? I mean, it's much easier to see it's not Satan--if your paradigm hasn't already been firmly established.

It could also be, there are natural ways to help spirits leave--in fact, books have been written about this (links were given in other threads about one). Please read this short article, and you will have more insight into lots of your questions and thoughts (from a Catholic publication!): https://www.ncronline.org/news/spiritua ... nd-therapy . Here are some books: https://www.spiritrelease.com/books-SR.htm .
You might also find that yes, prayer does play a part in some of these!

Do you believe that someone can "run around the Lord's back" using his power (we already know they would obviously not have his authority)? Pull a sneaky on Him? That His power would somehow flow through them, without his knowing it and condoning it? It doesn't make sense to me, and that it would ever work.
I agree/ can certainly see the parts of your post that I left out.

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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by Thinker »

JohnnyL wrote: April 24th, 2017, 10:01 amAnd we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.
Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

JohnnyL
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by JohnnyL »

Thinker wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
JohnnyL wrote: April 24th, 2017, 10:01 amAnd we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.
Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.
I didn't note an explanation, really. Give me a good scientific explanation, or dictionary definition, of "spiritual healing".

But I do note an appeal to spirituality as a line of reasoning... "I feel, therefore it is." :ymsigh:

Once more, what is spiritual healing? If we can't even define it, how can we argue about it?

bethany
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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by bethany »

Thinker wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
JohnnyL wrote: April 24th, 2017, 10:01 amAnd we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.
Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.
Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.

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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by AI2.0 »

bethany wrote: May 3rd, 2017, 7:26 pm
Thinker wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
JohnnyL wrote: April 24th, 2017, 10:01 amAnd we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.
Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.
Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.
This claim of yours, that ONE energy healing session miraculously healed a man--This sounds like the kind of claims I read for miracle weight loss, magnetic bracelets, and any number of expensive vitamin supplements. They make these claims to get people to buy their product, but when you do, you find it doesn't work. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that energy healing is THAT miraculous. If it was, then everyone would be using it, just like how everyone would be using the miracle products that claim fantastic results.

Bethany, you are very passionate about energy healing, but one thing that has always concerned me about you--you are also critical of Priesthood power and priesthood authority. That to me, is one of the 'red flags' that I noticed as you've shared your insights on Energy healing.

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Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by AI2.0 »

JohnnyL wrote: April 26th, 2017, 9:41 pm
mirkwood wrote: April 26th, 2017, 8:18 pm
Finrock wrote: April 26th, 2017, 12:20 pm Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH. :-?
Wait for it...
Oh MYYYY! Yes, it is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE red flag, all beware, now we can know for surety that it is of ... SATAN. <gasps>

I am completely comfortable with what I do, however, you are not. #-o

Seriously, do you have no connection to the internet? Are you unable to read? Are you incapable of using a search page? Are you incapable of using youtube?

This is pitiful trolling.
Have you ever paid for EH? No? Then we know your bias against it. :-? :ymsick:
Did you read what you wrote? Do you think this is a logical argument? If I don't pay for something then I have a bias against it? :-? You do realize there are lots of things we don't pay for and it certainly doesn't mean we don't want the things--maybe we do, but we just can't afford them.

YOU are an energy practitioner. You've admitted it in past posts. Why so defensive about the money you receive for it? If you charge for your services, shouldn't you be upfront about it, rather than trying to deflect with such nonsensical arguments? I believe you also said in a past post that you don't do 'Christ centered' energy healing. If that's the case, I don't care if you charge or not. It's not priestcraft if you aren't claiming to use the power of God to heal. It's probably an emotional placebo for your clients and if it makes them feel better, then that's a service of sorts....

bethany
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Posts: 602

Re: Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

Post by bethany »

AI2.0 wrote: May 4th, 2017, 7:40 am
bethany wrote: May 3rd, 2017, 7:26 pm
Thinker wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
JohnnyL wrote: April 24th, 2017, 10:01 amAnd we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.
Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.
Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.
This claim of yours, that ONE energy healing session miraculously healed a man--This sounds like the kind of claims I read for miracle weight loss, magnetic bracelets, and any number of expensive vitamin supplements. They make these claims to get people to buy their product, but when you do, you find it doesn't work. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that energy healing is THAT miraculous. If it was, then everyone would be using it, just like how everyone would be using the miracle products that claim fantastic results.

Bethany, you are very passionate about energy healing, but one thing that has always concerned me about you--you are also critical of Priesthood power and priesthood authority. That to me, is one of the 'red flags' that I noticed as you've shared your insights on Energy healing.
Not critical AT ALL of priesthood, just those who take it as a ticket to abuse. Or create an abusive situation/cycle of nonaction. Just a circle of excuses. 'It's your fault you have this issue... You are stuck w your chain of authority.... It must be Gods will that you suffer...' All excuses for lack of knowing what to do and unwillingness to learn. It's ok. Nobody wants to deal w ugly stuff.

Btw, the young man was far from healed, but he was able to move his legs & body again. He lived in India & had been cursed to die. 1 session merely released him from a curse of death. There was much more work to do. What you call healing is not the same definition in what I do. We work in layers all the way back to the beliefs that allowed a person to do this to another. It's not your vision of spending 30-40 min administering to a person.

I didn't wake up one day & say hey, this looks like an activity I can engage in.... No, my life was taken here, inspiration and divine intervention from way back. I stayed as far away from this subject as possible for all my youth. Then one day when I was involved w lobbying on behalf of the church and at the state capital, a senator invited us to his issue. It dealt w satanism & sacrifices, he had introduced a bill regarding that. As I sat there and watched the vote unfold in committee I talked to God... 'I don't know why you brought me here. I'm really scared to ask. This is the last place I want to be & ive never wanted to know this subject.' I was busy lobbying against gambling and we did this because my friend was asked to do it by the church. She had worked on many issues in our state when the church felt an obligation to express their values. This senator was really brave to take up this issue & I was very impressed with his ideals.

From there God introduced me to many who suffer from this thing. They were in every ward I ever attended, abusers and victims. But they are ignored, there's no program for them to fit in. It was years before I found energy healing. Finally I had a response for those who suffered.

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