Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

[Sarah]

Let me ask, what is your definition of "spiritual healing"?

Considering that I'm a work in progress and not completely spiritually healed (as applies to all), I cannot give you a complete definition.
But I will tell you that I believe what Jesus did was spiritual healing, which was based on metaphysics and psych-ology (study of the soul).

There was a man who was in need of healing. The room was so crowded, 4 men lowered him through the roof. Jesus said to the sick man, "Thy sins be forgiven thee." Scribes thought it was blasphemous, but Jesus said, "“For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?”

To me, this shows that sin is not just smoking a cigarette or whatever act, but at it's root, it's metaphysical (placebo-effect) type thinking that negatively affects us physiologically - or in motivating negative behavior. I don't know how this worked and how much is left out of this little passage, but I do believe that we are energy. Thoughts and feelings are energy - and they can influence others - for good or bad. We are always influencing and being influenced by others - some are well aware that when they stand next to someone they can get some intuitive sense of how they are feeling and their cumulative energy. Let's say I was in good spirits, and someone comes to me who's feeling down and I boost their spirits - it would be absurd to charge them money for that.

Note that Jesus never charged money for any of his healings. In fact, when people tried to use the temple to make money, was the rare time he expressed righteous anger and whipped them out of there. It is morally and spiritually wrong to charge money for spiritual healing, or spirituality in general.

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

I just threw that term out there to describe healing techniques that purport to heal the energy (spirit and emotions) within the body without using physical manipulation, ingestion or injection for example.

[JohnnyL]

Let me ask, what is your definition of "spiritual healing"?

Considering that I'm a work in progress and not completely spiritually healed (as applies to all), I cannot give you a complete definition.
But I will tell you that I believe what Jesus did was spiritual healing, which was based on metaphysics and psych-ology (study of the soul).

There was a man who was in need of healing. The room was so crowded, 4 men lowered him through the roof. Jesus said to the sick man, "Thy sins be forgiven thee." Scribes thought it was blasphemous, but Jesus said, "“For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?”

To me, this shows that sin is not just smoking a cigarette or whatever act, but at it's root, it's metaphysical (placebo-effect) type thinking that negatively affects us physiologically - or in motivating negative behavior. I don't know how this worked and how much is left out of this little passage, but I do believe that we are energy. Thoughts and feelings are energy - and they can influence others - for good or bad. We are always influencing and being influenced by others - some are well aware that when they stand next to someone they can get some intuitive sense of how they are feeling and their cumulative energy. Let's say I was in good spirits, and someone comes to me who's feeling down and I boost their spirits - it would be absurd to charge them money for that.

Note that Jesus never charged money for any of his healings. In fact, when people tried to use the temple to make money, was the rare time he expressed righteous anger and whipped them out of there. It is morally and spiritually wrong to charge money for spiritual healing, or spirituality in general.

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

I just threw that term out there to describe healing techniques that purport to heal the energy (spirit and emotions) within the body without using physical manipulation, ingestion or injection for example.

In which case, any type of psychology, psychiatry, counseling, LSCW, etc., would fit in "spiritual healing", and wouldn't, by many con-EHers' point of view, be able to receive pay for their work.

Is "physical" a necessary part of the definition?

And if a doctor gave someone sugar pills, that would be "physical"?

If you are putting hands on someone, or breathing, or tapping, that would be "physical" (some EH). Yet, I can do it either way, with little difference--so does physical/ nonphysical really matter?

Is it ok to charge money for treating one part of someone's being, but not ok to charge for treating another part of someone's being?
To me all these con-arguments just fall apart in so many little (and big) ways.

[mirkwood]

I still want to know how much you energy healers are charging per session.

[Sarah]

Considering that I'm a work in progress and not completely spiritually healed (as applies to all), I cannot give you a complete definition.
But I will tell you that I believe what Jesus did was spiritual healing, which was based on metaphysics and psych-ology (study of the soul).

There was a man who was in need of healing. The room was so crowded, 4 men lowered him through the roof. Jesus said to the sick man, "Thy sins be forgiven thee." Scribes thought it was blasphemous, but Jesus said, "“For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?”

To me, this shows that sin is not just smoking a cigarette or whatever act, but at it's root, it's metaphysical (placebo-effect) type thinking that negatively affects us physiologically - or in motivating negative behavior. I don't know how this worked and how much is left out of this little passage, but I do believe that we are energy. Thoughts and feelings are energy - and they can influence others - for good or bad. We are always influencing and being influenced by others - some are well aware that when they stand next to someone they can get some intuitive sense of how they are feeling and their cumulative energy. Let's say I was in good spirits, and someone comes to me who's feeling down and I boost their spirits - it would be absurd to charge them money for that.

Note that Jesus never charged money for any of his healings. In fact, when people tried to use the temple to make money, was the rare time he expressed righteous anger and whipped them out of there. It is morally and spiritually wrong to charge money for spiritual healing, or spirituality in general.

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

I just threw that term out there to describe healing techniques that purport to heal the energy (spirit and emotions) within the body without using physical manipulation, ingestion or injection for example.

In which case, any type of psychology, psychiatry, counseling, LSCW, etc., would fit in "spiritual healing", and wouldn't, by many con-EHers' point of view, be able to receive pay for their work.

Is "physical" a necessary part of the definition?

And if a doctor gave someone sugar pills, that would be "physical"?

If you are putting hands on someone, or breathing, or tapping, that would be "physical" (some EH). Yet, I can do it either way, with little difference--so does physical/ nonphysical really matter?

Is it ok to charge money for treating one part of someone's being, but not ok to charge for treating another part of someone's being?
To me all these con-arguments just fall apart in so many little (and big) ways.

Like I said earlier, each technique needs to stand on it's own and should be explained and justified. Get rid of the labels and define the behaviors and intent behind each technique. That is when you can judge righteously about any one therapy.

I've never studied or been to a psychologist, psychiatrist or counselor, but my guess is that these people engage in the behavior of talking and influencing the conscious mind, and changing or influencing future behavior of the patient. Agency is still present. And they are not using sacred names or language to invoke healing power.

Nothing wrong with touching a person, (I like a good massage!) but if your hand is supposedly enabling you to receive in your mind information about that patient, then how is that information being given to you? The body is just somehow "choosing" to give that info. to you? No, I think the intent and the signs you are giving to the adversary signal to him that you are putting faith in a false idea and hope and then he can give you what you are seeking.

[JohnnyL]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

I just threw that term out there to describe healing techniques that purport to heal the energy (spirit and emotions) within the body without using physical manipulation, ingestion or injection for example.

In which case, any type of psychology, psychiatry, counseling, LSCW, etc., would fit in "spiritual healing", and wouldn't, by many con-EHers' point of view, be able to receive pay for their work.

Is "physical" a necessary part of the definition?

And if a doctor gave someone sugar pills, that would be "physical"?

If you are putting hands on someone, or breathing, or tapping, that would be "physical" (some EH). Yet, I can do it either way, with little difference--so does physical/ nonphysical really matter?

Is it ok to charge money for treating one part of someone's being, but not ok to charge for treating another part of someone's being?
To me all these con-arguments just fall apart in so many little (and big) ways.

Like I said earlier, each technique needs to stand on it's own and should be explained and justified. Get rid of the labels and define the behaviors and intent behind each technique. That is when you can judge righteously about any one therapy.

I've never studied or been to a psychologist, psychiatrist or counselor, but my guess is that these people engage in the behavior of talking and influencing the conscious mind, and changing or influencing future behavior of the patient. Agency is still present. And they are not using sacred names or language to invoke healing power.

Nothing wrong with touching a person, (I like a good massage!) but if your hand is supposedly enabling you to receive in your mind information about that patient, then how is that information being given to you? The body is just somehow "choosing" to give that info. to you? No, I think the intent and the signs you are giving to the adversary signal to him that you are putting faith in a false idea and hope and then he can give you what you are seeking.

Ok, so now you are ditching the "physical" part of the definition (because it makes massage and Western psychology wrong...?), and we are going to the nonconscious. Here is a basic study: http://time.com/3937351/consciousness-u ... ess-brain/ , and there are plenty more. Unless you want to admit that EVERY SINGLE PERSON is controlled by Satan and his demons this way, including all church leaders, perhaps we should really go with the third spirit a lot more than just "God or Satan".

When Western psychology fails, it's usually because it deals with the conscious mind.

Let me ask you a question: do YOU consciously choose all your sins, ALWAYS? I can't think of a single person who would answer yes, because we: 1) get EMOTIONAL, which leads to loss of control; 2) are unaware or don't see right; 3) we have HABITS, usually developed or based from before the age of 8, that control our behavior (I could probably list more, but is the truth of those three enough to see it's the nonconscious in control?).

Let me ask something else. If I tell you I'll take care of a problem for you, and someone I talk to actually takes care of it, did I take care of it, or not?

If I ask someone to take care of a nonconscious problem, and they do, was I aware, and did I use agency, to bring that about?

[Sarah]

I just threw that term out there to describe healing techniques that purport to heal the energy (spirit and emotions) within the body without using physical manipulation, ingestion or injection for example.

In which case, any type of psychology, psychiatry, counseling, LSCW, etc., would fit in "spiritual healing", and wouldn't, by many con-EHers' point of view, be able to receive pay for their work.

Is "physical" a necessary part of the definition?

And if a doctor gave someone sugar pills, that would be "physical"?

If you are putting hands on someone, or breathing, or tapping, that would be "physical" (some EH). Yet, I can do it either way, with little difference--so does physical/ nonphysical really matter?

Is it ok to charge money for treating one part of someone's being, but not ok to charge for treating another part of someone's being?
To me all these con-arguments just fall apart in so many little (and big) ways.

Like I said earlier, each technique needs to stand on it's own and should be explained and justified. Get rid of the labels and define the behaviors and intent behind each technique. That is when you can judge righteously about any one therapy.

I've never studied or been to a psychologist, psychiatrist or counselor, but my guess is that these people engage in the behavior of talking and influencing the conscious mind, and changing or influencing future behavior of the patient. Agency is still present. And they are not using sacred names or language to invoke healing power.

Nothing wrong with touching a person, (I like a good massage!) but if your hand is supposedly enabling you to receive in your mind information about that patient, then how is that information being given to you? The body is just somehow "choosing" to give that info. to you? No, I think the intent and the signs you are giving to the adversary signal to him that you are putting faith in a false idea and hope and then he can give you what you are seeking.

Ok, so now you are ditching the "physical" part of the definition (because it makes massage and Western psychology wrong...?), and we are going to the nonconscious. Here is a basic study: http://time.com/3937351/consciousness-u ... ess-brain/ , and there are plenty more. Unless you want to admit that EVERY SINGLE PERSON is controlled by Satan and his demons this way, including all church leaders, perhaps we should really go with the third spirit a lot more than just "God or Satan".

When Western psychology fails, it's usually because it deals with the conscious mind.

Let me ask you a question: do YOU consciously choose all your sins, ALWAYS? I can't think of a single person who would answer yes, because we: 1) get EMOTIONAL, which leads to loss of control; 2) are unaware or don't see right; 3) we have HABITS, usually developed or based from before the age of 8, that control our behavior (I could probably list more, but is the truth of those three enough to see it's the nonconscious in control?).

Let me ask something else. If I tell you I'll take care of a problem for you, and someone I talk to actually takes care of it, did I take care of it, or not?

If I ask someone to take care of a nonconscious problem, and they do, was I aware, and did I use agency, to bring that about?

Like I said, we need to get rid of the labels and define the behavior and intent behind each technique. Do you mind explaining exactly what it is you do when you engage in healing? I'm only using terms like physical or conscious to describe different aspects of different techniques. Whether or not most of our brain function is on a conscious or unconscious level really doesn't matter to me. What matters is how one goes about accessing the unconscious "thoughts" or feelings of another and can with certainty reveal what is going on in another person's mind and body.

[JohnnyL]

In which case, any type of psychology, psychiatry, counseling, LSCW, etc., would fit in "spiritual healing", and wouldn't, by many con-EHers' point of view, be able to receive pay for their work.

Is "physical" a necessary part of the definition?

And if a doctor gave someone sugar pills, that would be "physical"?

If you are putting hands on someone, or breathing, or tapping, that would be "physical" (some EH). Yet, I can do it either way, with little difference--so does physical/ nonphysical really matter?

Is it ok to charge money for treating one part of someone's being, but not ok to charge for treating another part of someone's being?
To me all these con-arguments just fall apart in so many little (and big) ways.

Like I said earlier, each technique needs to stand on it's own and should be explained and justified. Get rid of the labels and define the behaviors and intent behind each technique. That is when you can judge righteously about any one therapy.

I've never studied or been to a psychologist, psychiatrist or counselor, but my guess is that these people engage in the behavior of talking and influencing the conscious mind, and changing or influencing future behavior of the patient. Agency is still present. And they are not using sacred names or language to invoke healing power.

Nothing wrong with touching a person, (I like a good massage!) but if your hand is supposedly enabling you to receive in your mind information about that patient, then how is that information being given to you? The body is just somehow "choosing" to give that info. to you? No, I think the intent and the signs you are giving to the adversary signal to him that you are putting faith in a false idea and hope and then he can give you what you are seeking.

Ok, so now you are ditching the "physical" part of the definition (because it makes massage and Western psychology wrong...?), and we are going to the nonconscious. Here is a basic study: http://time.com/3937351/consciousness-u ... ess-brain/ , and there are plenty more. Unless you want to admit that EVERY SINGLE PERSON is controlled by Satan and his demons this way, including all church leaders, perhaps we should really go with the third spirit a lot more than just "God or Satan".

When Western psychology fails, it's usually because it deals with the conscious mind.

Let me ask you a question: do YOU consciously choose all your sins, ALWAYS? I can't think of a single person who would answer yes, because we: 1) get EMOTIONAL, which leads to loss of control; 2) are unaware or don't see right; 3) we have HABITS, usually developed or based from before the age of 8, that control our behavior (I could probably list more, but is the truth of those three enough to see it's the nonconscious in control?).

Let me ask something else. If I tell you I'll take care of a problem for you, and someone I talk to actually takes care of it, did I take care of it, or not?

If I ask someone to take care of a nonconscious problem, and they do, was I aware, and did I use agency, to bring that about?

Like I said, we need to get rid of the labels and define the behavior and intent behind each technique. Do you mind explaining exactly what it is you do when you engage in healing? I'm only using terms like physical or conscious to describe different aspects of different techniques. Whether or not most of our brain function is on a conscious or unconscious level really doesn't matter to me. What matters is how one goes about accessing the unconscious "thoughts" or feelings of another and can with certainty reveal what is going on in another person's mind and body.

Sorry, Sarah. You have once more completely changed your argument. Once more, the answers to the questions don't fit what was wanted, so now "that topic" isn't important anymore. And this is a problem I have with the con-EHers, which I already mentioned.

You DID think it was important whether something was physical or not.

You DID think it was important whether it was conscious or not.

What happens when I answer more questions? Suddenly that topic isn't important anymore, and we switch to another, then another, then suddenly we are full circle, and start all over?

And most of these topics really aren't important, but it feels like with most con-EH arguments, grasping for straws and trying to make mountains out of imaginary molehills, then realizing that that argument also hurts traditional WM, so...

We DO kind of agree that each thing must be looked at individually or based on principles, and each person the same, whether EH, WM, or whatever. :ymhug:

The intent? To help others, to heal.
The methods? Mostly ok. Some weird, strange, or different. Some called things by the wrong name(s) because people don't know better, or to up their personal method.
The evidence? Hundreds of thousands of people have problems, then don't; are limited, then freed; are sick, then healthy; feel pain, then release; are "diagnosed" for sure, then nothing is refound. There are plenty of books, websites, videos, that all show this, and explain it at varying levels and details--including muscle testing.

If it really is muscle testing that is important, the crux, to you, why don't you do some research into it with some good sources?

[Finrock]

I know this is not the common way Energy Healers do business, but I also am concerned with things like muscle testing or techniques that attempt to communicate with with the body/spirit/mind in order to unleash these so-called trapped emotions. It is based on this strange premise that our unconscious state can communicate and choose to do something. Yes, we have influence over ourselves, but I don't believe that your spirit/mind can unconsciously communicate or make decisions. It's like saying you have two separate intelligence's inside of you that have agency. If you are not using your own agency to communicate something, then my feeling is that another spirit is doing the communicating or influencing that communication. I can see how feelings or memories might be repressed, but at the same time, there is proof that hypnotism for example results in false memories. Are these "memories" or feelings planted by an evil spirit or the practitioner? If you have buried feelings that are causing you to act in fear then you do need healing, but that fear can be dealt with by accessing the grace of our Savior through repentance, forgiveness, and prayer. At least with traditional medicine, there is a physical manipulation, ingestion, or injection of something and the body does the work of healing from there. But things like muscle testing, where you are treating your body like it has a mind of it's own (or like a Ouija board) does not mesh with what we know about accessing healing through the Savior.

It is commonly understood in modern, western psychology that our subconscious mind can very much affect our daily life. For example, when a person has experienced great trauma in their life, like abuse, this trauma leaves an "imprint" so to speak. The body remembers the abuse even if the abuse is consciously repressed. Quite often individuals who have been abused or have had traumatic experiences are not even aware of how they are responding and reacting as a result of the trauma. So, in day to day living a person who has been abused will react to situations different than a person who has not been or who has not had traumatic experiences. The person who has been abused may not, and generally does not think that how they are reacting or how they are thinking about any given situation is not healthy or not good. They might even think that it is normal, when in fact their thinking and their reactions are extreme, overly negative, overly sensitive, etc.

For instance, a person who has been abused as a child will almost certainly have trust issues. They will be more prone to second guess or to disbelieve what people are telling them. They will be more prone to thinking that people are taking advantage of them or that people can't be trusted. The person who is thinking this way because of trauma in most cases if it hasn't been resolved will not think that how they are reacting is abnormal. They really can't help it. Its a natural response to the trauma. Your body, your spirit, your mind remembers the trauma and it sets you up to act and to behave a certain way for the rest of your life, unless you do something about it.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is a proven and effective tool in modern medicine that focuses on the underlying "cognitive distortions' and "core negative beliefs" that individuals may have which they are unaware of or have not identified. By identifying these cognitive distortions, or poor thinking habits, a person is able to begin to modify their thinking so that it is less governed by the trauma.

I don't know about the methods used in EH which deal with "trapped emotions" but the idea that we can have latent memories, that abuse and trauma leaves its mark physiologically and spiritual, and that our bodies subconsciously remembers trauma, is an idea that is accepted by psychology today and therapy based on this principle is very effective. I speak from experience.

There is no doubt that the atonement of Jesus Christ is real and I know from my experience that God lead me to people, therapies, and methods which He knew would be helpful to me. Quite often things must be dealt with line upon line, precept upon precept. When we have been one way for most of our life it will take some time to unravel all of the poor ways and to replace them with new, good ways. I've often said that I am glad God has slowly introduced and revealed my weaknesses because its allowed me to recover from trauma at a pace that isn't overwhelming. If God were to expose and reveal all of my weaknesses and shortcomings all at once, I believe I would be overwhelmed. Sometimes its best to keep the patient ignorant of the extend of their trauma so they don't freak out and lose hope! So, God is wise and works with us through wisdom and order. The atonement allows us to be healed and it also allows us to benefit from therapies and to make them effective in our life.

-Finrock

[Sarah]

I know this is not the common way Energy Healers do business, but I also am concerned with things like muscle testing or techniques that attempt to communicate with with the body/spirit/mind in order to unleash these so-called trapped emotions. It is based on this strange premise that our unconscious state can communicate and choose to do something. Yes, we have influence over ourselves, but I don't believe that your spirit/mind can unconsciously communicate or make decisions. It's like saying you have two separate intelligence's inside of you that have agency. If you are not using your own agency to communicate something, then my feeling is that another spirit is doing the communicating or influencing that communication. I can see how feelings or memories might be repressed, but at the same time, there is proof that hypnotism for example results in false memories. Are these "memories" or feelings planted by an evil spirit or the practitioner? If you have buried feelings that are causing you to act in fear then you do need healing, but that fear can be dealt with by accessing the grace of our Savior through repentance, forgiveness, and prayer. At least with traditional medicine, there is a physical manipulation, ingestion, or injection of something and the body does the work of healing from there. But things like muscle testing, where you are treating your body like it has a mind of it's own (or like a Ouija board) does not mesh with what we know about accessing healing through the Savior.

It is commonly understood in modern, western psychology that our subconscious mind can very much affect our daily life. For example, when a person has experienced great trauma in their life, like abuse, this trauma leaves an "imprint" so to speak. The body remembers the abuse even if the abuse is consciously repressed. Quite often individuals who have been abused or have had traumatic experiences are not even aware of how they are responding and reacting as a result of the trauma. So, in day to day living a person who has been abused will react to situations different than a person who has not been or who has not had traumatic experiences. The person who has been abused may not, and generally does not think that how they are reacting or how they are thinking about any given situation is not healthy or not good. They might even think that it is normal, when in fact their thinking and their reactions are extreme, overly negative, overly sensitive, etc.

For instance, a person who has been abused as a child will almost certainly have trust issues. They will be more prone to second guess or to disbelieve what people are telling them. They will be more prone to thinking that people are taking advantage of them or that people can't be trusted. The person who is thinking this way because of trauma in most cases if it hasn't been resolved will not think that how they are reacting is abnormal. They really can't help it. Its a natural response to the trauma. Your body, your spirit, your mind remembers the trauma and it sets you up to act and to behave a certain way for the rest of your life, unless you do something about it.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is a proven and effective tool in modern medicine that focuses on the underlying "cognitive distortions' and "core negative beliefs" that individuals may have which they are unaware of or have not identified. By identifying these cognitive distortions, or poor thinking habits, a person is able to begin to modify their thinking so that it is less governed by the trauma.

I don't know about the methods used in EH which deal with "trapped emotions" but the idea that we can have latent memories, that abuse and trauma leaves its mark physiologically and spiritual, and that our bodies subconsciously remembers trauma, is an idea that is accepted by psychology today and therapy based on this principle is very effective. I speak from experience.

There is no doubt that the atonement of Jesus Christ is real and I know from my experience that God lead me to people, therapies, and methods which He knew would be helpful to me. Quite often things must be dealt with line upon line, precept upon precept. When we have been one way for most of our life it will take some time to unravel all of the poor ways and to replace them with new, good ways. I've often said that I am glad God has slowly introduced and revealed my weaknesses because its allowed me to recover from trauma at a pace that isn't overwhelming. If God were to expose and reveal all of my weaknesses and shortcomings all at once, I believe I would be overwhelmed. Sometimes its best to keep the patient ignorant of the extend of their trauma so they don't freak out and lose hope! So, God is wise and works with us through wisdom and order. The atonement allows us to be healed and it also allows us to benefit from therapies and to make them effective in our life.

-Finrock

Thanks for your perspective. I hardily agree that people experience this subconscious trauma. I have family members who have experienced this. I only question the method of diagnosing this and relieving the trauma. Especially when they are not even aware of what is going on. What I've seen in family members is that Satan can take advantage of trauma and influence the person with lots of negative thoughts, even suicidal. So when it comes to feelings like fear and distrust, and a lack of feeling loved, Satan can take it further with suicidal thoughts for example. I just think we need to acknowledge his role in plaguing people in their mental and emotional weaknesses, and rid ourselves from him with power that comes from Christ, rather than trusting in a method that opens the door to being influenced by evil in other ways.

[Sarah]

Like I said earlier, each technique needs to stand on it's own and should be explained and justified. Get rid of the labels and define the behaviors and intent behind each technique. That is when you can judge righteously about any one therapy.

I've never studied or been to a psychologist, psychiatrist or counselor, but my guess is that these people engage in the behavior of talking and influencing the conscious mind, and changing or influencing future behavior of the patient. Agency is still present. And they are not using sacred names or language to invoke healing power.

Nothing wrong with touching a person, (I like a good massage!) but if your hand is supposedly enabling you to receive in your mind information about that patient, then how is that information being given to you? The body is just somehow "choosing" to give that info. to you? No, I think the intent and the signs you are giving to the adversary signal to him that you are putting faith in a false idea and hope and then he can give you what you are seeking.

Ok, so now you are ditching the "physical" part of the definition (because it makes massage and Western psychology wrong...?), and we are going to the nonconscious. Here is a basic study: http://time.com/3937351/consciousness-u ... ess-brain/ , and there are plenty more. Unless you want to admit that EVERY SINGLE PERSON is controlled by Satan and his demons this way, including all church leaders, perhaps we should really go with the third spirit a lot more than just "God or Satan".

When Western psychology fails, it's usually because it deals with the conscious mind.

Let me ask you a question: do YOU consciously choose all your sins, ALWAYS? I can't think of a single person who would answer yes, because we: 1) get EMOTIONAL, which leads to loss of control; 2) are unaware or don't see right; 3) we have HABITS, usually developed or based from before the age of 8, that control our behavior (I could probably list more, but is the truth of those three enough to see it's the nonconscious in control?).

Let me ask something else. If I tell you I'll take care of a problem for you, and someone I talk to actually takes care of it, did I take care of it, or not?

If I ask someone to take care of a nonconscious problem, and they do, was I aware, and did I use agency, to bring that about?

Like I said, we need to get rid of the labels and define the behavior and intent behind each technique. Do you mind explaining exactly what it is you do when you engage in healing? I'm only using terms like physical or conscious to describe different aspects of different techniques. Whether or not most of our brain function is on a conscious or unconscious level really doesn't matter to me. What matters is how one goes about accessing the unconscious "thoughts" or feelings of another and can with certainty reveal what is going on in another person's mind and body.

Sorry, Sarah. You have once more completely changed your argument. Once more, the answers to the questions don't fit what was wanted, so now "that topic" isn't important anymore. And this is a problem I have with the con-EHers, which I already mentioned.

You DID think it was important whether something was physical or not.

You DID think it was important whether it was conscious or not.

What happens when I answer more questions? Suddenly that topic isn't important anymore, and we switch to another, then another, then suddenly we are full circle, and start all over?

And most of these topics really aren't important, but it feels like with most con-EH arguments, grasping for straws and trying to make mountains out of imaginary molehills, then realizing that that argument also hurts traditional WM, so...

We DO kind of agree that each thing must be looked at individually or based on principles, and each person the same, whether EH, WM, or whatever. :ymhug:

The intent? To help others, to heal.
The methods? Mostly ok. Some weird, strange, or different. Some called things by the wrong name(s) because people don't know better, or to up their personal method.
The evidence? Hundreds of thousands of people have problems, then don't; are limited, then freed; are sick, then healthy; feel pain, then release; are "diagnosed" for sure, then nothing is refound. There are plenty of books, websites, videos, that all show this, and explain it at varying levels and details--including muscle testing.

If it really is muscle testing that is important, the crux, to you, why don't you do some research into it with some good sources?

I'm sorry I'm frustrating you, but I feel like I'm also not really being understood. When I mean "intent," I mean for example, what is the purpose of muscle testing, and how is it supposed to convey information, or how is it supposed to work? The behavior is placing something in someone's hand, or asking a question. So, is the intent to see which way the body sways so one can determine which foods/emotions/conditions are good or bad for the individual?

I had a family member using some kind of EH chart to diagnose her children with emotional issues over the phone. She would describe the answers that came to her mind. So the behavior was using a chart that perhaps had questions to ask the patient, and the intent was to receive answers in the mind of what the problem was. Doesn't this seem suspicious to you, that someone could essentially receive "revelation" in their mind about someone from looking at a chart of some kind?

[JohnnyL]

I know this is not the common way Energy Healers do business, but I also am concerned with things like muscle testing or techniques that attempt to communicate with with the body/spirit/mind in order to unleash these so-called trapped emotions. It is based on this strange premise that our unconscious state can communicate and choose to do something. Yes, we have influence over ourselves, but I don't believe that your spirit/mind can unconsciously communicate or make decisions. It's like saying you have two separate intelligence's inside of you that have agency. If you are not using your own agency to communicate something, then my feeling is that another spirit is doing the communicating or influencing that communication. I can see how feelings or memories might be repressed, but at the same time, there is proof that hypnotism for example results in false memories. Are these "memories" or feelings planted by an evil spirit or the practitioner? If you have buried feelings that are causing you to act in fear then you do need healing, but that fear can be dealt with by accessing the grace of our Savior through repentance, forgiveness, and prayer. At least with traditional medicine, there is a physical manipulation, ingestion, or injection of something and the body does the work of healing from there. But things like muscle testing, where you are treating your body like it has a mind of it's own (or like a Ouija board) does not mesh with what we know about accessing healing through the Savior.

It is commonly understood in modern, western psychology that our subconscious mind can very much affect our daily life. For example, when a person has experienced great trauma in their life, like abuse, this trauma leaves an "imprint" so to speak. The body remembers the abuse even if the abuse is consciously repressed. Quite often individuals who have been abused or have had traumatic experiences are not even aware of how they are responding and reacting as a result of the trauma. So, in day to day living a person who has been abused will react to situations different than a person who has not been or who has not had traumatic experiences. The person who has been abused may not, and generally does not think that how they are reacting or how they are thinking about any given situation is not healthy or not good. They might even think that it is normal, when in fact their thinking and their reactions are extreme, overly negative, overly sensitive, etc.

For instance, a person who has been abused as a child will almost certainly have trust issues. They will be more prone to second guess or to disbelieve what people are telling them. They will be more prone to thinking that people are taking advantage of them or that people can't be trusted. The person who is thinking this way because of trauma in most cases if it hasn't been resolved will not think that how they are reacting is abnormal. They really can't help it. Its a natural response to the trauma. Your body, your spirit, your mind remembers the trauma and it sets you up to act and to behave a certain way for the rest of your life, unless you do something about it.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is a proven and effective tool in modern medicine that focuses on the underlying "cognitive distortions' and "core negative beliefs" that individuals may have which they are unaware of or have not identified. By identifying these cognitive distortions, or poor thinking habits, a person is able to begin to modify their thinking so that it is less governed by the trauma.

I don't know about the methods used in EH which deal with "trapped emotions" but the idea that we can have latent memories, that abuse and trauma leaves its mark physiologically and spiritual, and that our bodies subconsciously remembers trauma, is an idea that is accepted by psychology today and therapy based on this principle is very effective. I speak from experience.

There is no doubt that the atonement of Jesus Christ is real and I know from my experience that God lead me to people, therapies, and methods which He knew would be helpful to me. Quite often things must be dealt with line upon line, precept upon precept. When we have been one way for most of our life it will take some time to unravel all of the poor ways and to replace them with new, good ways. I've often said that I am glad God has slowly introduced and revealed my weaknesses because its allowed me to recover from trauma at a pace that isn't overwhelming. If God were to expose and reveal all of my weaknesses and shortcomings all at once, I believe I would be overwhelmed. Sometimes its best to keep the patient ignorant of the extend of their trauma so they don't freak out and lose hope! So, God is wise and works with us through wisdom and order. The atonement allows us to be healed and it also allows us to benefit from therapies and to make them effective in our life.

-Finrock

I REALLY like your last paragraph.

///
The problem with Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is that it works with the conscious mind. It's pretty good for making you aware, but not for healing. Example: "You shouldn't hit someone when you are angry with them." Most people are pretty clear on that, but that doesn't them from doing it, because of trauma, emotions, triggers, habits.

[JohnnyL]

I know this is not the common way Energy Healers do business, but I also am concerned with things like muscle testing or techniques that attempt to communicate with with the body/spirit/mind in order to unleash these so-called trapped emotions. It is based on this strange premise that our unconscious state can communicate and choose to do something. Yes, we have influence over ourselves, but I don't believe that your spirit/mind can unconsciously communicate or make decisions. It's like saying you have two separate intelligence's inside of you that have agency. If you are not using your own agency to communicate something, then my feeling is that another spirit is doing the communicating or influencing that communication. I can see how feelings or memories might be repressed, but at the same time, there is proof that hypnotism for example results in false memories. Are these "memories" or feelings planted by an evil spirit or the practitioner? If you have buried feelings that are causing you to act in fear then you do need healing, but that fear can be dealt with by accessing the grace of our Savior through repentance, forgiveness, and prayer. At least with traditional medicine, there is a physical manipulation, ingestion, or injection of something and the body does the work of healing from there. But things like muscle testing, where you are treating your body like it has a mind of it's own (or like a Ouija board) does not mesh with what we know about accessing healing through the Savior.

It is commonly understood in modern, western psychology that our subconscious mind can very much affect our daily life. For example, when a person has experienced great trauma in their life, like abuse, this trauma leaves an "imprint" so to speak. The body remembers the abuse even if the abuse is consciously repressed. Quite often individuals who have been abused or have had traumatic experiences are not even aware of how they are responding and reacting as a result of the trauma. So, in day to day living a person who has been abused will react to situations different than a person who has not been or who has not had traumatic experiences. The person who has been abused may not, and generally does not think that how they are reacting or how they are thinking about any given situation is not healthy or not good. They might even think that it is normal, when in fact their thinking and their reactions are extreme, overly negative, overly sensitive, etc.

For instance, a person who has been abused as a child will almost certainly have trust issues. They will be more prone to second guess or to disbelieve what people are telling them. They will be more prone to thinking that people are taking advantage of them or that people can't be trusted. The person who is thinking this way because of trauma in most cases if it hasn't been resolved will not think that how they are reacting is abnormal. They really can't help it. Its a natural response to the trauma. Your body, your spirit, your mind remembers the trauma and it sets you up to act and to behave a certain way for the rest of your life, unless you do something about it.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is a proven and effective tool in modern medicine that focuses on the underlying "cognitive distortions' and "core negative beliefs" that individuals may have which they are unaware of or have not identified. By identifying these cognitive distortions, or poor thinking habits, a person is able to begin to modify their thinking so that it is less governed by the trauma.

I don't know about the methods used in EH which deal with "trapped emotions" but the idea that we can have latent memories, that abuse and trauma leaves its mark physiologically and spiritual, and that our bodies subconsciously remembers trauma, is an idea that is accepted by psychology today and therapy based on this principle is very effective. I speak from experience.

There is no doubt that the atonement of Jesus Christ is real and I know from my experience that God lead me to people, therapies, and methods which He knew would be helpful to me. Quite often things must be dealt with line upon line, precept upon precept. When we have been one way for most of our life it will take some time to unravel all of the poor ways and to replace them with new, good ways. I've often said that I am glad God has slowly introduced and revealed my weaknesses because its allowed me to recover from trauma at a pace that isn't overwhelming. If God were to expose and reveal all of my weaknesses and shortcomings all at once, I believe I would be overwhelmed. Sometimes its best to keep the patient ignorant of the extend of their trauma so they don't freak out and lose hope! So, God is wise and works with us through wisdom and order. The atonement allows us to be healed and it also allows us to benefit from therapies and to make them effective in our life.

-Finrock

Thanks for your perspective. I hardily agree that people experience this subconscious trauma. I have family members who have experienced this. I only question the method of diagnosing this and relieving the trauma. Especially when they are not even aware of what is going on. What I've seen in family members is that Satan can take advantage of trauma and influence the person with lots of negative thoughts, even suicidal. So when it comes to feelings like fear and distrust, and a lack of feeling loved, Satan can take it further with suicidal thoughts for example. I just think we need to acknowledge his role in plaguing people in their mental and emotional weaknesses, and rid ourselves from him with power that comes from Christ, rather than trusting in a method that opens the door to being influenced by evil in other ways.

See, here's where it's frustrating again--once more, the double standard of "If it's "science"/ an accepted Western paradigm, it's ok (as if Satan can't influence that?), but if it's something "else", it's not ok, and open to Satan." Why? You want to "acknowledge his role in plaguing people in their mental and emotional weaknesses"--good! And therefore, somehow, we have to rely on Jesus and not EH, because EH opens the way for Satan to plague people in their mental and emotional weaknesses, right? I don't understand--how does that logically follow? It's like circular reasoning... If you don't feel comfortable, you don't need to do it. You seem to be projecting your uncomfort onto others, and then saying, no!

Where has it been established that EH is "trusting in a method that opens the door to being influenced by evil in other ways"?

How is this for "science"; sound like it's from God, and unchangeable and accurate?:

04/20/17 - 88% Of Medical 'Second Opinions' Give A Different Diagnosis - And So Do Some AI
First, "A new study finds that nearly 9 in 10 people who go for a second opinion after seeing a doctor are likely to leave with a refined or new diagnosis from what they were first told," according to an article (via slashdot.org) shared by Slashdot reader schwit1: Researchers at the Mayo Clinic examined 286 patient records of individuals who had decided to consult a second opinion, hoping to determine whether being referred to a second specialist impacted one's likelihood of receiving an accurate diagnosis. The study, conducted using records of patients referred to the Mayo Clinic's General Internal Medicine Division over a two-year period, ultimately found that when consulting a second opinion, the physician only confirmed the original diagnosis 12 percent of the time. Among those with updated diagnoses, 66% received a refined or redefined diagnosis, while 21% were diagnosed with something completely different than what their first physician concluded.

But in a related story, Slashdot reader sciencehabit writes that four machine-learning algorithms all performed better than currently-used algorithm of the American College of Cardiology, according to newly-published research, which concludes that "machine-learning significantly improves accuracy of cardiovascular risk prediction, increasing the number of patients identified who could benefit from preventive treatment, while avoiding unnecessary treatment of others."

"I can't stress enough how important it is," one Stanford vascular surgeon told Science magazine, "and how much I really hope that doctors start to embrace the use of artificial intelligence to assist us in care of patients."
https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/0 ... do-some-ai
https://www.studyfinds.org/second-opini ... sis-study/
etc.

Psychiatry, psychology, counseling, etc., don't "opens the door to being influenced by evil in other ways"?? Guess what a strong factor in suicide is? Being on SSRI's!! (I'm trying to think of one case of a media large-scale shooting where SSRI's weren't involved, and I can't--is that from God, or Satan?)

Without hypnosis, EH, or the like (there are a few other ways that come a little closer to "accepted"), you're going to have an extremely hard time healing nonconscious trauma.

///
Con-EHers,
I suggest, if you want to know more, stop arguing, and start studying. That's a big part of how anyone learns.

[mirkwood]

JohnnyL: Do you practice energy healing? If yes, how much do you charge?

[Finrock]

JohnnyL: Do you practice energy healing? If yes, how much do you charge?

Why is this relevant in your opinion? What do you hope to establish in this conversation by having JohnnyL tell you how much he charges, if this question even applies to him?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

I know this is not the common way Energy Healers do business, but I also am concerned with things like muscle testing or techniques that attempt to communicate with with the body/spirit/mind in order to unleash these so-called trapped emotions. It is based on this strange premise that our unconscious state can communicate and choose to do something. Yes, we have influence over ourselves, but I don't believe that your spirit/mind can unconsciously communicate or make decisions. It's like saying you have two separate intelligence's inside of you that have agency. If you are not using your own agency to communicate something, then my feeling is that another spirit is doing the communicating or influencing that communication. I can see how feelings or memories might be repressed, but at the same time, there is proof that hypnotism for example results in false memories. Are these "memories" or feelings planted by an evil spirit or the practitioner? If you have buried feelings that are causing you to act in fear then you do need healing, but that fear can be dealt with by accessing the grace of our Savior through repentance, forgiveness, and prayer. At least with traditional medicine, there is a physical manipulation, ingestion, or injection of something and the body does the work of healing from there. But things like muscle testing, where you are treating your body like it has a mind of it's own (or like a Ouija board) does not mesh with what we know about accessing healing through the Savior.

It is commonly understood in modern, western psychology that our subconscious mind can very much affect our daily life. For example, when a person has experienced great trauma in their life, like abuse, this trauma leaves an "imprint" so to speak. The body remembers the abuse even if the abuse is consciously repressed. Quite often individuals who have been abused or have had traumatic experiences are not even aware of how they are responding and reacting as a result of the trauma. So, in day to day living a person who has been abused will react to situations different than a person who has not been or who has not had traumatic experiences. The person who has been abused may not, and generally does not think that how they are reacting or how they are thinking about any given situation is not healthy or not good. They might even think that it is normal, when in fact their thinking and their reactions are extreme, overly negative, overly sensitive, etc.

For instance, a person who has been abused as a child will almost certainly have trust issues. They will be more prone to second guess or to disbelieve what people are telling them. They will be more prone to thinking that people are taking advantage of them or that people can't be trusted. The person who is thinking this way because of trauma in most cases if it hasn't been resolved will not think that how they are reacting is abnormal. They really can't help it. Its a natural response to the trauma. Your body, your spirit, your mind remembers the trauma and it sets you up to act and to behave a certain way for the rest of your life, unless you do something about it.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is a proven and effective tool in modern medicine that focuses on the underlying "cognitive distortions' and "core negative beliefs" that individuals may have which they are unaware of or have not identified. By identifying these cognitive distortions, or poor thinking habits, a person is able to begin to modify their thinking so that it is less governed by the trauma.

I don't know about the methods used in EH which deal with "trapped emotions" but the idea that we can have latent memories, that abuse and trauma leaves its mark physiologically and spiritual, and that our bodies subconsciously remembers trauma, is an idea that is accepted by psychology today and therapy based on this principle is very effective. I speak from experience.

There is no doubt that the atonement of Jesus Christ is real and I know from my experience that God lead me to people, therapies, and methods which He knew would be helpful to me. Quite often things must be dealt with line upon line, precept upon precept. When we have been one way for most of our life it will take some time to unravel all of the poor ways and to replace them with new, good ways. I've often said that I am glad God has slowly introduced and revealed my weaknesses because its allowed me to recover from trauma at a pace that isn't overwhelming. If God were to expose and reveal all of my weaknesses and shortcomings all at once, I believe I would be overwhelmed. Sometimes its best to keep the patient ignorant of the extend of their trauma so they don't freak out and lose hope! So, God is wise and works with us through wisdom and order. The atonement allows us to be healed and it also allows us to benefit from therapies and to make them effective in our life.

-Finrock

I REALLY like your last paragraph.

///
The problem with Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is that it works with the conscious mind. It's pretty good for making you aware, but not for healing. Example: "You shouldn't hit someone when you are angry with them." Most people are pretty clear on that, but that doesn't them from doing it, because of trauma, emotions, triggers, habits.

Thanks.

As far as CBT is concerned, the data suggests that you are incorrect. CBT has been very effective in treating depression and other similar mental health issues. It does not just work with the conscious mind. It attempts to reveal subconscious thoughts, patterns, or habits and provides practical ways of changing how you think, which directly affects your mood, how you feel, or how happy and satisfied you feel in life. It first helps you identify and recognize cognitive distortions you might be subconsciously influenced by and then CBT provides methods of eliminating these thought patterns that influence your emotions negatively.

CBT has been empirically verified.

-Finrock

[mirkwood]

JohnnyL: Do you practice energy healing? If yes, how much do you charge?

Why is this relevant in your opinion? What do you hope to establish in this conversation by having JohnnyL tell you how much he charges, if this question even applies to him?

-Finrock

Are you JohnnyL's mouthpiece now? Do you speak for him?

Finrock, same questions. Are you an energy healer? If yes, how much do you charge?

[Finrock]

JohnnyL: Do you practice energy healing? If yes, how much do you charge?

Why is this relevant in your opinion? What do you hope to establish in this conversation by having JohnnyL tell you how much he charges, if this question even applies to him?

-Finrock

Are you JohnnyL's mouthpiece now? Do you speak for him?

Finrock, same questions. Are you an energy healer? If yes, how much do you charge?

No, I'm not JohnnyLs mouthpiece and I don't, neither am I, even trying to speak for him.

That was a weird response to my questions.

Why is your question relevant to this discussion? What do you hope to establish by knowing if JohnnyL is an EH and specifically what his rates are?

-Finrock

[Sarah]

See, here's where it's frustrating again--once more, the double standard of "If it's "science"/ an accepted Western paradigm, it's ok (as if Satan can't influence that?), but if it's something "else", it's not ok, and open to Satan." Why? I mentioned earlier that I also don't defend western medicine as being more okay, in fact I think in many cases it too opens one up to one being influenced more easily by evil, as with some prescription drugs for example. My favorite healing method is diet and the Holy Ghost. I don't believe that two wrongs make a right. Just because western medicine has it's pitfalls, doesn't justify something else with pitfalls. You want to "acknowledge his role in plaguing people in their mental and emotional weaknesses"--good! And therefore, somehow, we have to rely on Jesus and not EH, because EH opens the way for Satan to plague people in their mental and emotional weaknesses, right? I never said that EH opened the way for Satan to plague people (although I've read accounts where it did in fact) when my observation was that it seemed to be the solution to the plaguing. And that is one of my points, that he will stop plaguing a person when they start relying on something else, be it EH or drugs, which he knows may simply get them to stop relying on the ultimate and master Healer - our Savior, and become reliant on something else. I don't understand--how does that logically follow? It's like circular reasoning... If you don't feel comfortable, you don't need to do it. You seem to be projecting your uncomfort onto others, and then saying, no!

Where has it been established that EH is "trusting in a method that opens the door to being influenced by evil in other ways"?

How is this for "science"; sound like it's from God, and unchangeable and accurate?:

04/20/17 - 88% Of Medical 'Second Opinions' Give A Different Diagnosis - And So Do Some AI
First, "A new study finds that nearly 9 in 10 people who go for a second opinion after seeing a doctor are likely to leave with a refined or new diagnosis from what they were first told," according to an article (via slashdot.org) shared by Slashdot reader schwit1: Researchers at the Mayo Clinic examined 286 patient records of individuals who had decided to consult a second opinion, hoping to determine whether being referred to a second specialist impacted one's likelihood of receiving an accurate diagnosis. The study, conducted using records of patients referred to the Mayo Clinic's General Internal Medicine Division over a two-year period, ultimately found that when consulting a second opinion, the physician only confirmed the original diagnosis 12 percent of the time. Among those with updated diagnoses, 66% received a refined or redefined diagnosis, while 21% were diagnosed with something completely different than what their first physician concluded.

But in a related story, Slashdot reader sciencehabit writes that four machine-learning algorithms all performed better than currently-used algorithm of the American College of Cardiology, according to newly-published research, which concludes that "machine-learning significantly improves accuracy of cardiovascular risk prediction, increasing the number of patients identified who could benefit from preventive treatment, while avoiding unnecessary treatment of others."

"I can't stress enough how important it is," one Stanford vascular surgeon told Science magazine, "and how much I really hope that doctors start to embrace the use of artificial intelligence to assist us in care of patients."
https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/0 ... do-some-ai
https://www.studyfinds.org/second-opini ... sis-study/
etc.

Psychiatry, psychology, counseling, etc., don't "opens the door to being influenced by evil in other ways"?? Guess what a strong factor in suicide is? Being on SSRI's!! (I'm trying to think of one case of a media large-scale shooting where SSRI's weren't involved, and I can't--is that from God, or Satan?)

Yes, I think it does open the door to being influenced by evil. Relying on the arm of flesh is always a risk.

Without hypnosis, EH, or the like (there are a few other ways that come a little closer to "accepted"), you're going to have an extremely hard time healing nonconscious trauma.

And how do you know what a person's unconscious trauma is? How do you know that when a person is under hypnosis for example, it is not an evil spirit influencing the message coming out?
As beehives, we had a sleepover and one girl started hypnotizing another, and it worked! It was really strange, and the girl who was under could be heavily influenced. The mom at home was upstairs and received a very strong prompting that something was wrong. She came down and found out what we were doing and had a little talk with us. It wasn't something I feel the Holy Ghost could be present at.

///
Con-EHers,
I suggest, if you want to know more, stop arguing, and start studying. That's a big part of how anyone learns.

[mirkwood]

No, I'm not JohnnyLs mouthpiece and I don't, neither am I, even trying to speak for him.

Then what is the relevance of you questioning my question?

Why is your question relevant to this discussion? What do you hope to establish by knowing if JohnnyL is an EH and specifically what his rates are?

-Finrock

I didn't know I needed your approval to make a post or ask a question. I was asking JohnnyL, not you. Although I asked you the same question and you did not respond.

[JohnnyL]

JohnnyL: Do you practice energy healing? If yes, how much do you charge?

Why is this relevant in your opinion? What do you hope to establish in this conversation by having JohnnyL tell you how much he charges, if this question even applies to him?

-Finrock

Are you JohnnyL's mouthpiece now? Do you speak for him?

Finrock, same questions. Are you an energy healer? If yes, how much do you charge?

Actually, yes, HE did speak for me, and very well.

[Finrock]

JohnnyL: Do you practice energy healing? If yes, how much do you charge?

Why is this relevant in your opinion? What do you hope to establish in this conversation by having JohnnyL tell you how much he charges, if this question even applies to him?

-Finrock

Are you JohnnyL's mouthpiece now? Do you speak for him?

Finrock, same questions. Are you an energy healer? If yes, how much do you charge?

Actually, yes, she did speak for me, and very well.

I'm a "he". ;)

-Finrock

[JohnnyL]

Why is this relevant in your opinion? What do you hope to establish in this conversation by having JohnnyL tell you how much he charges, if this question even applies to him?

-Finrock

Are you JohnnyL's mouthpiece now? Do you speak for him?

Finrock, same questions. Are you an energy healer? If yes, how much do you charge?

Actually, yes, she did speak for me, and very well.

I'm a "he". ;)

-Finrock

Ahh, I knew that!! Sorry. :ymblushing:

[JohnnyL]

mirkwood,

With all the unanswered questions I've asked just on this thread, not counting all the other threads, and you keep asking new, irrelevant ones?

Engage with one of those questions, or from what you've seen on the (at least, and likely many, many more) thousands of EH videos all over youtube, etc. Learn, stop trolling. :ymsigh:

[AI2.0]

mirkwood,

With all the unanswered questions I've asked just on this thread, not counting all the other threads, and you keep asking new, irrelevant ones?

Engage with one of those questions, or from what you've seen on the (at least, and likely many, many more) thousands of EH videos all over youtube, etc. Learn, stop trolling. :ymsigh:

Just the fact that you are so cagey about your own practice of Energy healing is a red flag. If you were completely above board and comfortable with what you do, why would you not simply answer the questions? If you feel completely comfortable with your business, why not answer? If you don't want to give information about yourself, why not give general prices and a brief overview of what you do, as an Energy healer?

It's a reasonable question to ask an Energy healer. Why they wouldn't want to answer these obvious questions, I don't know.

[JohnnyL]

So, here's this:

Moroni 10:15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues;
16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues.

Yes, Moroni is talking about SPIRITUAL GIFTS here, and since about every con-EH believes that since healing is a spiritual gift--given that it is mentioned in the gifts--

what do we think of everyone who has learned a second language?

If they are nonmembers, we are to divine, according to the con-EH argument, that their gift is from Satan, yes?

And if they are members--ESPECIALLY if they learned it on their mission, a SERVICE to God--by the same argument, they are NOT allowed to use it to make money, but only serve, yes?

Any different points of view, con-EHers?