Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

[AI2.0]

We are asked to use our faith to heal people in the temple, specifically our faith, not the priesthood. The priesthood gives us the authorization to act in God's behalf. Anyone can heal by faith, and if miracles don't happen by faith, then we are a wicked and unbelieving generation. If we look at someone who uses faith to heal, and call them evil, then we are very naive as to what real evil is actually out there.

But, if they claim to use their faith to heal, then why are they charging $25.00 for a half hour session over the phone? They cannot or should not be claiming to use their 'faith' to heal when they are charging money for it. I think all believers understand that this WOULD be considered evil and improper use of one's faith.
Out of the plethora of people doing it, can you point out those who claim "to use their faith to heal?"
$25 is cheap! Someone's getting a deal...

When we are asked to use our combined faith in the temple, we don't charge money to do so. There's no comparison between an Energy healing session with an Energy Coach and exercising faith through our prayers for others.
So if there's no comparison, why do you keep comparing?

Faith is one of the Gifts of God. We pray for miracles but we don't always recognize them. If a person is not healed, it is not simply because they lack faith or are wicked. Sometimes it is God's will that a person not be healed, at that time, or in the way we desire. If we are in tune with the spirit and submissive to God's will, hopefully we can come to understand God's will and timing.
True. And?

Priesthood is the authority to act in God's name.
True. And?

Priesthood holders are charged to give blessings and act in God's name in calling down powers from heaven, through faith. And of course, they do not charge money for their service.
True. And?

And as for those rare energy healers who do it for free...

It becomes a matter of who you put your trust in;

If I'm a believing, active member of the LDS church and I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer? It seems like an odd choice for LDS to reject Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system...

PLEASE, show me you are SANE and CONGRUENT by telling me you also do not use anything or anyone else, other than the priesthood, to heal.

Go ahead and say: "I have access to the priesthood--why would I go to a doctor, psychologist, dentist, or any other healer?" If you can't repeat that sentence and mean it anymore than "I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer?", then this shows incredible lack of understanding, lack of a sound mind, or hypocrisy.

And I'm missing why EH means one "rejects Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system"--can you show it? Why do you believe the two are mutually exclusive?

How about a Chinese belief system? Indian? hundreds of other indigenous "belief systems"? Are you against new knowledge and wisdom? Oh, as long as it is Western and "scientific", it's ok, right? Talk about racism!!!

I don't think this discussion will go anywhere with you since you have a monetary interest in defending Energy healing.

When this is discussed you defenders always try to make it an either/or choice. You insist that if we won't allow for payment in faithhealing, we can't allow for payment in medical healing. If we want a priesthood blessing then we CAN'T have regular medical treatment. But, since when did LDS become Christian Scientists? We've never believed or encouraged that. And, it isn't an either or choice. You know very well that most LDS use regular doctors AND prayer, fasting and priesthood blessings combined.

You want Energy healing to be considered as simply another form of medicine, but it's not.

I'm not sure you even know the origins of 'energy healing' which you promote. If you did, you might be more aware of why I call it a new age belief system.


Let's be honest. Do you really think you can be objective about this?

You remind me of the angry silversmiths when Paul's preaching of the gospel hurt their business selling pagan idols. (Acts 19:24-28)

"..sirs, he know that by this craft we have our wealth."

"So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought;."

As a member of the church, you should have known better, you should not have gotten involved in Energy Healing and now, you stridently defend your 'craft' because it is your profession and it brings in income for you.

[JohnnyL]

What a great question: Who do you think has more power to "release" these trapped emotions?

A man with a magnet and his magic Amega wand (Bradley Nelson)

Or

The Savior Jesus Christ through the power of the His priesthood and faith, repentance, prayer, and etc.

Who do you think has more power to ... DO ANYTHING??

Of course, it's Jesus.

And?

Hmmm... so you've heard Dr. Nelson refer to his wand as magic?

[simpleton]

And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.

Question: who was Jesus talking about when he said : " and that not by the hand if an enemy"....

[Finrock]

Priestcraft. I think that word means something different than what many here think it means. I have no problems with paying anyone for it, nor getting paid for it. Why?

Priestcraft: "Men (or women) preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/priestcraft?lang=eng
This can be charging for the placebo effect, selling books just to capitalize on one's religious fame, charging for worthiness, etc.
You can call it "flucaprazi" - "what's in a name - a rose by any other name will smell as sweet." Names don't change what it is.
If you put someone under and don't scrape their knee, and then you scrape someone else's knee--and both have the same effect (you have heard of this study, right?)--you shouldn't charge for the first, but you can charge tens of thousands for the second?
So you believe the general authorities and the great majority of religious books, 3/4 of Deseret Books, EFY presenters, and others are guilty of priestcraft?
Charging for worthiness, I can accept.
If the names don't change what it is, what is "it"?

I believe that each of us have the same ability to heal ourselves & one another. Why charge money to someone for something they can do themselves? It's called "free market" and "opportunity cost". I'm pretty all of us here CAN do lots of things ourselves that we pay others to do. Do you buy vegetables at the store? Couldn't you grow them yourself? Etc.

And if you REALLY care and want to heal, you'd do it from the outpouring love of your heart - as Jesus did - rather than set up shop in a temple (so to speak). I won't condemn people for buying crystals or paying for "worthiness" but I just hope they come to realize that all that money & effort would be better spent and that the real healing influence they're seeking is always available straight from God and the only charge is a broken heart & a contrite spirit.
If you really cared about others and want to help them, you will work for free. Straight up: Is that what you did? Or did you get money for your time, effort, learning, capabilities and abilities, showing up, and providing something in exchange for money?
Where is the beating a dead, dead, dead horse emoji? If it's available straight from God, HAVE YOU SEEN A DOCTOR, DENTIST, THERAPIST, COUNSELOR, OR ANY SIMILAR? If you have, please drop this line of "reasoning".

Also, if there were any scientific proof that energy healing worked independent of the placebo effect - that the healer was actually doing something healing (as is the case of Doctors, and some in Chinese Medicine), then fees would be appropriate. But generally, research shows that they work based on placebo effect - the individual's beliefs. And a plethora of people can and do testify of that fact!
Seriously, doctors heal?? The great majority of doctors don't heal, they just ignorantly treat and/or money-grab.
How come you wrote "as in the case of doctors, and SOME in Chinese Medicine?

And this is a good reminder of the importance of managing our own thoughts, feelings, motives - & ultimately habits.
Placebo effect is the first variable the FDA uses to test meds - it's powerful! Have it work FOR you, rather than against you: http://www.vitalaffirmations.com/health ... Ouif9Lyu70

Affirmations like that aren't very useful; in fact, studies (real ones) show they often hinder instead of help. If you are going to use affirmations--which are not placebos--you should put them in question form. ;)

There is a hypocrisy, for sure. However, I believe Thinker is talking about the ideal, the goal. If we simply loved each other as we love ourselves and if we simply looked after one another, there would be no need for money. We would give of our time, our effort, our energy, our talents, and our skills without worrying about compensation. I understand how difficult it is to contemplate a system that is not based on free markets and the exchange of money or on exchange of any type. It seems right now there is no way that one can make it in the world without taking part in the market system or in the system of using our talents, skills, and gifts in order to get compensated. But, isn't that what the Church is attempting to get us use to? Isn't that why we have at least segments of our society right now where we do good, perform work, and give of our time, efforts, talents, and gifts without money and without price? Ideally in the Church we should be living in such a way where we serve and love others without worrying about being paid. Wouldn't it be more good if we extended what we are attempting in our Church to the whole world? I don't mean by compulsion but by people's free will and choice, they decide to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly.

For the ideal to happen (this ideal we call Zion) it requires a great paradigm change. It requires abandoning the love of temporal goods. It requires abandoning a love of money. It requires abandoning our faith in our temporal goods. It requires abandoning being judgmental. It requires abandoning envy and lust. It requires greater faith and reliance on God. It requires seeing each other and the world different. It requires being brave. It requires being willing to be disappointed and hurt by other people without retaliation or without being tempted to abandon what is good. It requires being forgiving. It seems almost impossible when you compare what is required with what currently is!

-Finrock

[DesertWonderer]

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/magnetic_ ... never_dies

Magnetic Healing: An Old Scam That Never Dies

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Column
Steven Novella
Skeptical Inquirer Volume 35.1, January/February 2011
The notion that magnets can be used for healing has existed since humans discovered them.

Magnetic charms, bracelets, insoles, and braces remain popular and are sold with claims that they improve athletic performance, relieve arthritis pain, increase energy, and pretty much treat whatever symptoms you might have. These products may seem modern and high-tech, but similar devices and claims have been around for centuries.

The notion that magnets can be used for healing has existed since humans discovered them. Several ancient cultures, such as those of Egypt, Greece, and China, discovered natural magnetic rocks, or lodestones. People had a hard time explaining the unusual properties of these rocks given the scientific knowledge of the time, so they came up with fanciful explanations like “minerals have souls too.” This was compatible with the general belief that everything has an “essence.”

It was also observed that this magnetic property can be transferred. Socrates wrote: “That stone not only attracts iron rings, but imparts to them a similar power of attracting other rings; and sometimes you may see many pieces of iron and rings suspended from one another to form quite a long chain; and all of them derive their power of suspension from the original stone” (quoted in Keithley 1999).

It then seemed natural that because living things have an energy and essence, and certain rocks contain an energy and essence, that such rocks could be used to heal illness-to transfer their energy to a living being. Even today, this idea has an emotional and even rational appeal. Who wouldn't want to be healed by the equivalent of McCoy's medical scanner, which non-invasively uses invisible and painless energy fields to return our tissues to health at the cellular level. When we fantasize about future medicine, that is what we imagine. It is no surprise, then, that through the centuries magnetic healing has been very popular-and its popularity has only increased with advancing scientific understanding of magnetism and the eventual discovery of electromagnetism.

The relationship between medical academia and popular marketing hasn't changed in hundreds of years either. In 1600, William Gilbert wrote De Magnete, in which he described detailed experiments with magnets and electricity and systematically disproved hundreds of popular health claims for such treatments. This established debunking of magnetic therapy continued into the seventeenth century with Thomas Browne (Macklis 1993). Considering how primitive scientific methods and medical knowledge were at this time, the claims of magnetic healers must have been especially fantastical and their treatments remarkably worthless.

But “The Man” was not able to keep magnetic healing down. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Franz Mesmer dramatically increased the popularity of magnetic healing with his “animal magnetism” theory. Mesmer thought that animal magnetism was a unique force of nature that flowed like a fluid through living things. He also thought he could manipulate it through a combination of hypnotism and laying-on of hands. After a high-profile debunking by a commission led by Benjamin Franklin, however, Mesmer's fame faded, and he died poor and forgotten. But his legacy survived-magnetic healing remains very popular to this day.

Today the relationship among magnets, popular health claims, and the medical/scientific community remains the same. The public is fascinated by the notion of healing with electricity, electromagnetic fields, and magnetic energy. The fact that many medical interventions are legitimately based upon electromagnetism increases this interest. People understand that we use magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to peer into the body. Recent studies indicate the potential for transcranial magnetic stimulation as an effective treatment for migraines (Lipton and Pearlman 2010). We routinely measure electrical (and now even magnetic) brain waves to assess brain function.

Electromagnetism is the real energy of life, and therefore it is very plausible that all sorts of magnetic and electrical interventions will be useful for diagnostic and therapeutic purposes. But this potential also opens up a market for countless quack magnetic devices that exploit this appeal. You can buy what are essentially refrigerator magnets to strap to your elbow or knee or put in your shoe or under your pillow. These static magnetic fields have no demonstrable effect on blood flow or living tissue, and their fields are so shallow that they barely extend beyond the cloth in which they are encased, let alone to any significant tissue depth. The scientific evidence for their efficacy is negative (Pittler et al. 2007). Even more absurd are magnetic bracelets that are supposed to have a remote healing effect on the body. Their plausibility plummets even further.

It is eternally frustrating that scientific evidence and academic acceptance of medical claims seem to have no bearing on the marketing and popular appeal of those claims. This disconnect appears to be especially true of claims for magnetic devices and treatments-and it has survived for centuries.

[JohnnyL]

Priestcraft. I think that word means something different than what many here think it means. I have no problems with paying anyone for it, nor getting paid for it. Why?

Priestcraft: "Men (or women) preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/priestcraft?lang=eng
This can be charging for the placebo effect, selling books just to capitalize on one's religious fame, charging for worthiness, etc.
You can call it "flucaprazi" - "what's in a name - a rose by any other name will smell as sweet." Names don't change what it is.
If you put someone under and don't scrape their knee, and then you scrape someone else's knee--and both have the same effect (you have heard of this study, right?)--you shouldn't charge for the first, but you can charge tens of thousands for the second?
So you believe the general authorities and the great majority of religious books, 3/4 of Deseret Books, EFY presenters, and others are guilty of priestcraft?
Charging for worthiness, I can accept.
If the names don't change what it is, what is "it"?

I believe that each of us have the same ability to heal ourselves & one another. Why charge money to someone for something they can do themselves? It's called "free market" and "opportunity cost". I'm pretty all of us here CAN do lots of things ourselves that we pay others to do. Do you buy vegetables at the store? Couldn't you grow them yourself? Etc.

And if you REALLY care and want to heal, you'd do it from the outpouring love of your heart - as Jesus did - rather than set up shop in a temple (so to speak). I won't condemn people for buying crystals or paying for "worthiness" but I just hope they come to realize that all that money & effort would be better spent and that the real healing influence they're seeking is always available straight from God and the only charge is a broken heart & a contrite spirit.
If you really cared about others and want to help them, you will work for free. Straight up: Is that what you did? Or did you get money for your time, effort, learning, capabilities and abilities, showing up, and providing something in exchange for money?
Where is the beating a dead, dead, dead horse emoji? If it's available straight from God, HAVE YOU SEEN A DOCTOR, DENTIST, THERAPIST, COUNSELOR, OR ANY SIMILAR? If you have, please drop this line of "reasoning".

Also, if there were any scientific proof that energy healing worked independent of the placebo effect - that the healer was actually doing something healing (as is the case of Doctors, and some in Chinese Medicine), then fees would be appropriate. But generally, research shows that they work based on placebo effect - the individual's beliefs. And a plethora of people can and do testify of that fact!
Seriously, doctors heal?? The great majority of doctors don't heal, they just ignorantly treat and/or money-grab.
How come you wrote "as in the case of doctors, and SOME in Chinese Medicine?

And this is a good reminder of the importance of managing our own thoughts, feelings, motives - & ultimately habits.
Placebo effect is the first variable the FDA uses to test meds - it's powerful! Have it work FOR you, rather than against you: http://www.vitalaffirmations.com/health ... Ouif9Lyu70

Affirmations like that aren't very useful; in fact, studies (real ones) show they often hinder instead of help. If you are going to use affirmations--which are not placebos--you should put them in question form. ;)

There is a hypocrisy, for sure. However, I believe Thinker is talking about the ideal, the goal. If we simply loved each other as we love ourselves and if we simply looked after one another, there would be no need for money. We would give of our time, our effort, our energy, our talents, and our skills without worrying about compensation. I understand how difficult it is to contemplate a system that is not based on free markets and the exchange of money or on exchange of any type. It seems right now there is no way that one can make it in the world without taking part in the market system or in the system of using our talents, skills, and gifts in order to get compensated. But, isn't that what the Church is attempting to get us use to? Isn't that why we have at least segments of our society right now where we do good, perform work, and give of our time, efforts, talents, and gifts without money and without price? Ideally in the Church we should be living in such a way where we serve and love others without worrying about being paid. Wouldn't it be more good if we extended what we are attempting in our Church to the whole world? I don't mean by compulsion but by people's free will and choice, they decide to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly.

For the ideal to happen (this ideal we call Zion) it requires a great paradigm change. It requires abandoning the love of temporal goods. It requires abandoning a love of money. It requires abandoning our faith in our temporal goods. It requires abandoning being judgmental. It requires abandoning envy and lust. It requires greater faith and reliance on God. It requires seeing each other and the world different. It requires being brave. It requires being willing to be disappointed and hurt by other people without retaliation or without being tempted to abandon what is good. It requires being forgiving. It seems almost impossible when you compare what is required with what currently is!

-Finrock

Yes, one day things will be different. But for right now, it's not. And using double standards and hypocrisy, along with a lot of other illogical means, shows how strong Satan has a hold on people's minds, and how he has blinded them, and to what low level people will go to protect their paradigms.

[JohnnyL]

And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.

Question: who was Jesus talking about when he said : " and that not by the hand if an enemy"....

simpleton,

Do you see anything about popping pills in those verses? seeing a doctor? No? I didn't either.

Jesus was talking about enemies not nourishing with herbs and mild food. That wasn't really hard, was it?

[JohnnyL]

We are asked to use our faith to heal people in the temple, specifically our faith, not the priesthood. The priesthood gives us the authorization to act in God's behalf. Anyone can heal by faith, and if miracles don't happen by faith, then we are a wicked and unbelieving generation. If we look at someone who uses faith to heal, and call them evil, then we are very naive as to what real evil is actually out there.

But, if they claim to use their faith to heal, then why are they charging $25.00 for a half hour session over the phone? They cannot or should not be claiming to use their 'faith' to heal when they are charging money for it. I think all believers understand that this WOULD be considered evil and improper use of one's faith.
Out of the plethora of people doing it, can you point out those who claim "to use their faith to heal?"
$25 is cheap! Someone's getting a deal...

When we are asked to use our combined faith in the temple, we don't charge money to do so. There's no comparison between an Energy healing session with an Energy Coach and exercising faith through our prayers for others.
So if there's no comparison, why do you keep comparing?

Faith is one of the Gifts of God. We pray for miracles but we don't always recognize them. If a person is not healed, it is not simply because they lack faith or are wicked. Sometimes it is God's will that a person not be healed, at that time, or in the way we desire. If we are in tune with the spirit and submissive to God's will, hopefully we can come to understand God's will and timing.
True. And?

Priesthood is the authority to act in God's name.
True. And?

Priesthood holders are charged to give blessings and act in God's name in calling down powers from heaven, through faith. And of course, they do not charge money for their service.
True. And?

And as for those rare energy healers who do it for free...

It becomes a matter of who you put your trust in;

If I'm a believing, active member of the LDS church and I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer? It seems like an odd choice for LDS to reject Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system...

PLEASE, show me you are SANE and CONGRUENT by telling me you also do not use anything or anyone else, other than the priesthood, to heal.

Go ahead and say: "I have access to the priesthood--why would I go to a doctor, psychologist, dentist, or any other healer?" If you can't repeat that sentence and mean it anymore than "I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer?", then this shows incredible lack of understanding, lack of a sound mind, or hypocrisy.

And I'm missing why EH means one "rejects Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system"--can you show it? Why do you believe the two are mutually exclusive?

How about a Chinese belief system? Indian? hundreds of other indigenous "belief systems"? Are you against new knowledge and wisdom? Oh, as long as it is Western and "scientific", it's ok, right? Talk about racism!!!

I don't think this discussion will go anywhere with you since you have a monetary interest in defending Energy healing.
Money has no connection to logic. Please show I am wrong.

When this is discussed you defenders always try to make it an either/or choice. You insist that if we won't allow for payment in faith healing, we can't allow for payment in medical healing.
What is "faith healing"? Why are you changing the terms/ words here? Not very honest.

If we want a priesthood blessing then we CAN'T have regular medical treatment.
Yes you can, but you can't be a hypocrite with double standards about it.

But, since when did LDS become Christian Scientists? We've never believed or encouraged that. And, it isn't an either or choice. You know very well that most LDS use regular doctors AND prayer, fasting and priesthood blessings combined.
Thank you for saying "it isn't an either or choice".
And YOU know very well that EH does in no way rule out prayer, fasting, and priesthood blessings.

You want Energy healing to be considered as simply another form of medicine, but it's not. I'm not sure you even know the origins of 'energy healing' which you promote. If you did, you might be more aware of why I call it a new age belief system.
Please inform us.

Let's be honest. Do you really think you can be objective about this?
I have been, but it's easy to see you can't be. You seem willing to protect your paradigm at the extreme.

You remind me of the angry silversmiths when Paul's preaching of the gospel hurt their business selling pagan idols. (Acts 19:24-28)
"..sirs, he know that by this craft we have our wealth."
"So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought;."
You remind me of "a girl":

A girl: "Heavenly Father says we have to fold our arms."
Me: "No, he doesn't."
Pudge: "Sister Slummer said so."
Me: "Well, she's a fathead. And you can tell her that Brother Kirby said so."
http://www.sltrib.com/news/5152791-155/ ... fined.gbpl

As a member of the church, you should have known better, you should not have gotten involved in Energy Healing and now, you stridently defend your 'craft' because it is your profession and it brings in income for you.
As has been shown over and over ad infinitum, you have no clue what you are talking about, nor can you make a logical case for it. As a member of the church, you should know better--be honest with yourself, and it's much easier to be honest with others. Start with directly answering all the questions I've asked. :ymhug:

[Finrock]

Priestcraft: "Men (or women) preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/priestcraft?lang=eng
This can be charging for the placebo effect, selling books just to capitalize on one's religious fame, charging for worthiness, etc.
You can call it "flucaprazi" - "what's in a name - a rose by any other name will smell as sweet." Names don't change what it is.
If you put someone under and don't scrape their knee, and then you scrape someone else's knee--and both have the same effect (you have heard of this study, right?)--you shouldn't charge for the first, but you can charge tens of thousands for the second?
So you believe the general authorities and the great majority of religious books, 3/4 of Deseret Books, EFY presenters, and others are guilty of priestcraft?
Charging for worthiness, I can accept.
If the names don't change what it is, what is "it"?

I believe that each of us have the same ability to heal ourselves & one another. Why charge money to someone for something they can do themselves? It's called "free market" and "opportunity cost". I'm pretty all of us here CAN do lots of things ourselves that we pay others to do. Do you buy vegetables at the store? Couldn't you grow them yourself? Etc.

And if you REALLY care and want to heal, you'd do it from the outpouring love of your heart - as Jesus did - rather than set up shop in a temple (so to speak). I won't condemn people for buying crystals or paying for "worthiness" but I just hope they come to realize that all that money & effort would be better spent and that the real healing influence they're seeking is always available straight from God and the only charge is a broken heart & a contrite spirit.
If you really cared about others and want to help them, you will work for free. Straight up: Is that what you did? Or did you get money for your time, effort, learning, capabilities and abilities, showing up, and providing something in exchange for money?
Where is the beating a dead, dead, dead horse emoji? If it's available straight from God, HAVE YOU SEEN A DOCTOR, DENTIST, THERAPIST, COUNSELOR, OR ANY SIMILAR? If you have, please drop this line of "reasoning".

Also, if there were any scientific proof that energy healing worked independent of the placebo effect - that the healer was actually doing something healing (as is the case of Doctors, and some in Chinese Medicine), then fees would be appropriate. But generally, research shows that they work based on placebo effect - the individual's beliefs. And a plethora of people can and do testify of that fact!
Seriously, doctors heal?? The great majority of doctors don't heal, they just ignorantly treat and/or money-grab.
How come you wrote "as in the case of doctors, and SOME in Chinese Medicine?

And this is a good reminder of the importance of managing our own thoughts, feelings, motives - & ultimately habits.
Placebo effect is the first variable the FDA uses to test meds - it's powerful! Have it work FOR you, rather than against you: http://www.vitalaffirmations.com/health ... Ouif9Lyu70

Affirmations like that aren't very useful; in fact, studies (real ones) show they often hinder instead of help. If you are going to use affirmations--which are not placebos--you should put them in question form. ;)

There is a hypocrisy, for sure. However, I believe Thinker is talking about the ideal, the goal. If we simply loved each other as we love ourselves and if we simply looked after one another, there would be no need for money. We would give of our time, our effort, our energy, our talents, and our skills without worrying about compensation. I understand how difficult it is to contemplate a system that is not based on free markets and the exchange of money or on exchange of any type. It seems right now there is no way that one can make it in the world without taking part in the market system or in the system of using our talents, skills, and gifts in order to get compensated. But, isn't that what the Church is attempting to get us use to? Isn't that why we have at least segments of our society right now where we do good, perform work, and give of our time, efforts, talents, and gifts without money and without price? Ideally in the Church we should be living in such a way where we serve and love others without worrying about being paid. Wouldn't it be more good if we extended what we are attempting in our Church to the whole world? I don't mean by compulsion but by people's free will and choice, they decide to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly.

For the ideal to happen (this ideal we call Zion) it requires a great paradigm change. It requires abandoning the love of temporal goods. It requires abandoning a love of money. It requires abandoning our faith in our temporal goods. It requires abandoning being judgmental. It requires abandoning envy and lust. It requires greater faith and reliance on God. It requires seeing each other and the world different. It requires being brave. It requires being willing to be disappointed and hurt by other people without retaliation or without being tempted to abandon what is good. It requires being forgiving. It seems almost impossible when you compare what is required with what currently is!

-Finrock

Yes, one day things will be different. But for right now, it's not. And using double standards and hypocrisy, along with a lot of other illogical means, shows how strong Satan has a hold on people's minds, and how he has blinded them, and to what low level people will go to protect their paradigms.

You are just as involved in the hypocrisy as anyone else, unless you have abandoned all notions of seeking a profit using God given gifts. The reality is that everything you have, everything you are, every gift and skill that you possess has been given to you from God and He is sustaining you and maintaining you from day to day. Without Him you are nothing. Of course this applies to each of us.

-Finrock

[JohnnyL]

DesertWonderer,

You going to answer those questions instead of playing "musical chairs"?

What a great question: Who do you think has more power to "release" these trapped emotions?

A man with a magnet and his magic Amega wand (Bradley Nelson)

Or

The Savior Jesus Christ through the power of the His priesthood and faith, repentance, prayer, and etc.

Who do you think has more power to ... DO ANYTHING??

Of course, it's Jesus.

And?

Hmmm... so you've heard Dr. Nelson refer to his wand as magic?

[Finrock]

We are asked to use our faith to heal people in the temple, specifically our faith, not the priesthood. The priesthood gives us the authorization to act in God's behalf. Anyone can heal by faith, and if miracles don't happen by faith, then we are a wicked and unbelieving generation. If we look at someone who uses faith to heal, and call them evil, then we are very naive as to what real evil is actually out there.

But, if they claim to use their faith to heal, then why are they charging $25.00 for a half hour session over the phone? They cannot or should not be claiming to use their 'faith' to heal when they are charging money for it. I think all believers understand that this WOULD be considered evil and improper use of one's faith.
Out of the plethora of people doing it, can you point out those who claim "to use their faith to heal?"
$25 is cheap! Someone's getting a deal...

When we are asked to use our combined faith in the temple, we don't charge money to do so. There's no comparison between an Energy healing session with an Energy Coach and exercising faith through our prayers for others.
So if there's no comparison, why do you keep comparing?

Faith is one of the Gifts of God. We pray for miracles but we don't always recognize them. If a person is not healed, it is not simply because they lack faith or are wicked. Sometimes it is God's will that a person not be healed, at that time, or in the way we desire. If we are in tune with the spirit and submissive to God's will, hopefully we can come to understand God's will and timing.
True. And?

Priesthood is the authority to act in God's name.
True. And?

Priesthood holders are charged to give blessings and act in God's name in calling down powers from heaven, through faith. And of course, they do not charge money for their service.
True. And?

And as for those rare energy healers who do it for free...

It becomes a matter of who you put your trust in;

If I'm a believing, active member of the LDS church and I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer? It seems like an odd choice for LDS to reject Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system...

PLEASE, show me you are SANE and CONGRUENT by telling me you also do not use anything or anyone else, other than the priesthood, to heal.

Go ahead and say: "I have access to the priesthood--why would I go to a doctor, psychologist, dentist, or any other healer?" If you can't repeat that sentence and mean it anymore than "I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer?", then this shows incredible lack of understanding, lack of a sound mind, or hypocrisy.

And I'm missing why EH means one "rejects Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system"--can you show it? Why do you believe the two are mutually exclusive?

How about a Chinese belief system? Indian? hundreds of other indigenous "belief systems"? Are you against new knowledge and wisdom? Oh, as long as it is Western and "scientific", it's ok, right? Talk about racism!!!

I don't think this discussion will go anywhere with you since you have a monetary interest in defending Energy healing.

When this is discussed you defenders always try to make it an either/or choice. You insist that if we won't allow for payment in faithhealing, we can't allow for payment in medical healing. If we want a priesthood blessing then we CAN'T have regular medical treatment. But, since when did LDS become Christian Scientists? We've never believed or encouraged that. And, it isn't an either or choice. You know very well that most LDS use regular doctors AND prayer, fasting and priesthood blessings combined.

You want Energy healing to be considered as simply another form of medicine, but it's not.

I'm not sure you even know the origins of 'energy healing' which you promote. If you did, you might be more aware of why I call it a new age belief system.


Let's be honest. Do you really think you can be objective about this?

You remind me of the angry silversmiths when Paul's preaching of the gospel hurt their business selling pagan idols. (Acts 19:24-28)

"..sirs, he know that by this craft we have our wealth."

"So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought;."

As a member of the church, you should have known better, you should not have gotten involved in Energy Healing and now, you stridently defend your 'craft' because it is your profession and it brings in income for you.

This post is essentially an ad hominem. Did you know when you resort to attacking another person's character and when you attempt to "mind read" you are only exposing your own character and your own heart and mind? Did you know that ad hominem arguments do not prove your point and neither do they disprove the arguments of the person you are attacking?

-Finrock

[Rumpelstiltskin]

"___believed, as does his friend Denver Snuffer, that a person has the ability to receive the second comforter and can communicate face to face with the Savior."

Am I wrong or is it strange that this is cited as though it is not a perfectly orthodox LDS belief?

The doctrine of receiving the second comforter is not unorthodox but in church teachings, this may take different forms, it may not be 'face to face', it may be other spiritual manifestation. Denver Snuffer's twist on it has made it unorthodox. I would assume that is the Stake Pres's concern over it--referring to this in the context of what Denver Snuffer promotes. Denver Snuffer claims every person need this spiritual experience--other wise, they aren't going to the Celestial Kingdom. Do I remember correctly that Snuffer says those who don't receive this in the flesh go to the telestial kingdom?

The Snuff Man doesn't know what he's talking about. Simply read D&C 137. Joseph Smith saw his brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom and he died before the Church was restored. "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;"

[simpleton]

And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.

Question: who was Jesus talking about when he said : " and that not by the hand if an enemy"....

simpleton,

Do you see anything about popping pills in those verses? seeing a doctor? No? I didn't either.

Jesus was talking about enemies not nourishing with herbs and mild food. That wasn't really hard, was it?

Well to me the popping of the pills , which definitely are not herbs (from the pharmaceutical companies) administered by the doctors, who I think is the "enemy".... now I do not brand every single "doctor" as the enemy, rather the overall system in my opinion is not designed to heal you , but rather to part you from your money, hence the never ending search for the cure of cancer and other seemingly " incurable" diseases.
But I'm sure I will catch flack for those statements. :-s

Again good ol Brigham:

When you are sick, call for the Elders, who will pray for you, anointing with oil and the laying on of hands; and nurse each other with herbs, and mild food, and if you do these things, in faith, and quit taking poisons, and poisonous medicines, which God never ordained for the use of men, you shall be blessed.

[JohnnyL]

And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.

Question: who was Jesus talking about when he said : " and that not by the hand if an enemy"....

simpleton,

Do you see anything about popping pills in those verses? seeing a doctor? No? I didn't either.

Jesus was talking about enemies not nourishing with herbs and mild food. That wasn't really hard, was it?

Well to me the popping of the pills , which definitely are not herbs (from the pharmaceutical companies) administered by the doctors, who I think is the "enemy".... now I do not brand every single "doctor" as the enemy, rather the overall system in my opinion is not designed to heal you , but rather to part you from your money, hence the never ending search for the cure of cancer and other seemingly " incurable" diseases.
But I'm sure I will catch flack for those statements. :-s
Not from me you won't, lol.

Again good ol Brigham:

When you are sick, call for the Elders, who will pray for you, anointing with oil and the laying on of hands; and nurse each other with herbs, and mild food, and if you do these things, in faith, and quit taking poisons, and poisonous medicines, which God never ordained for the use of men, you shall be blessed.

Interesting, huh?

[DesertWonderer]

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... elief.html

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D.

Subtle forces can lead intelligent people (both patients and therapists) to think that a treatment has helped someone when it has not. This is true for new treatments in scientific medicine, as well as for nostrums in folk medicine, fringe practices in "alternative medicine," and the ministrations of faith healers.

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.

There are at least seven reasons why people may erroneously conclude that an ineffective therapy works:
1. The disease may have run its natural course. Many diseases are self-limiting. If the condition is not chronic or fatal, the body's own recuperative processes usually restore the sufferer to health. Thus, to demonstrate that a therapy is effective, its proponents must show that the number of patients listed as improved exceeds the number expected to recover without any treatment at all (or that they recover reliably faster than if left untreated). Without detailed records of successes and failures for a large enough number of patients with the same complaint, someone cannot legitimately claim to have exceeded the published norms for unaided recovery.

2. Many diseases are cyclical. Such conditions as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, allergies, and gastrointestinal problems normally have "ups and downs." Naturally, sufferers tend to seek therapy during the downturn of any given cycle. In this way, a bogus treatment will have repeated opportunities to coincide with upturns that would have happened anyway.

3. The placebo effect may be responsible. Through suggestion, belief, expectancy, cognitive reinterpretation, and diversion of attention, patients given biologically useless treatments often experience measurable relief. Some placebo responses produce actual changes in the physical condition; others are subjective changes that make patients feel better even though there has been no objective change in the underlying pathology.

4. People who hedge their bets credit the wrong thing. If improvement occurs after someone has had both "alternative" and science-based treatment, the fringe practice often gets a disproportionate share of the credit.

5. The original diagnosis or prognosis may have been incorrect. Scientifically trained physicians are not infallible. A mistaken diagnosis, followed by a trip to a shrine or an "alternative" healer, can lead to a glowing testimonial for curing a condition that would have resolved by itself. In other cases, the diagnosis may be correct but the time frame, which is inherently difficult to predict, might prove inaccurate.

6. Temporary mood improvement can be confused with cure. Alternative healers often have forceful, charismatic personalities. To the extent that patients are swept up by the messianic aspects of "alternative medicine," psychological uplift may ensue.

7. Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in "alternative medicine" can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and "face" to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most "alternative" therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.

Buyer Beware!

[Finrock]

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... elief.html

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D.

Subtle forces can lead intelligent people (both patients and therapists) to think that a treatment has helped someone when it has not. This is true for new treatments in scientific medicine, as well as for nostrums in folk medicine, fringe practices in "alternative medicine," and the ministrations of faith healers.

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.

There are at least seven reasons why people may erroneously conclude that an ineffective therapy works:
1. The disease may have run its natural course. Many diseases are self-limiting. If the condition is not chronic or fatal, the body's own recuperative processes usually restore the sufferer to health. Thus, to demonstrate that a therapy is effective, its proponents must show that the number of patients listed as improved exceeds the number expected to recover without any treatment at all (or that they recover reliably faster than if left untreated). Without detailed records of successes and failures for a large enough number of patients with the same complaint, someone cannot legitimately claim to have exceeded the published norms for unaided recovery.

2. Many diseases are cyclical. Such conditions as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, allergies, and gastrointestinal problems normally have "ups and downs." Naturally, sufferers tend to seek therapy during the downturn of any given cycle. In this way, a bogus treatment will have repeated opportunities to coincide with upturns that would have happened anyway.

3. The placebo effect may be responsible. Through suggestion, belief, expectancy, cognitive reinterpretation, and diversion of attention, patients given biologically useless treatments often experience measurable relief. Some placebo responses produce actual changes in the physical condition; others are subjective changes that make patients feel better even though there has been no objective change in the underlying pathology.

4. People who hedge their bets credit the wrong thing. If improvement occurs after someone has had both "alternative" and science-based treatment, the fringe practice often gets a disproportionate share of the credit.

5. The original diagnosis or prognosis may have been incorrect. Scientifically trained physicians are not infallible. A mistaken diagnosis, followed by a trip to a shrine or an "alternative" healer, can lead to a glowing testimonial for curing a condition that would have resolved by itself. In other cases, the diagnosis may be correct but the time frame, which is inherently difficult to predict, might prove inaccurate.

6. Temporary mood improvement can be confused with cure. Alternative healers often have forceful, charismatic personalities. To the extent that patients are swept up by the messianic aspects of "alternative medicine," psychological uplift may ensue.

7. Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in "alternative medicine" can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and "face" to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most "alternative" therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.

Buyer Beware!

Although all of this may be true, it is also possible that some people are in fact exercising faith in Jesus Christ and God is healing them by His power. Some people who fall under the subjective "energy healer" category might in fact have the gift of healing and they may, in fact, be using God's power to help others heal and it is in fact God who is doing the healing. Without appealing to circular reasoning or special pleading you can't rule out this possibility.

-Finrock

[JohnnyL]

Hilariously, every one of these describes Western medicine, lol!! =))

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... elief.html

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D.

Subtle forces can lead intelligent people (both patients and therapists) to think that a treatment has helped someone when it has not. This is true for new treatments in scientific medicine, as well as for nostrums in folk medicine, fringe practices in "alternative medicine," and the ministrations of faith healers.

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.

There are at least seven reasons why people may erroneously conclude that an ineffective therapy works:
1. The disease may have run its natural course. Many diseases are self-limiting. If the condition is not chronic or fatal, the body's own recuperative processes usually restore the sufferer to health. Thus, to demonstrate that a therapy is effective, its proponents must show that the number of patients listed as improved exceeds the number expected to recover without any treatment at all (or that they recover reliably faster than if left untreated). Without detailed records of successes and failures for a large enough number of patients with the same complaint, someone cannot legitimately claim to have exceeded the published norms for unaided recovery.

2. Many diseases are cyclical. Such conditions as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, allergies, and gastrointestinal problems normally have "ups and downs." Naturally, sufferers tend to seek therapy during the downturn of any given cycle. In this way, a bogus treatment will have repeated opportunities to coincide with upturns that would have happened anyway.

3. The placebo effect may be responsible. Through suggestion, belief, expectancy, cognitive reinterpretation, and diversion of attention, patients given biologically useless treatments often experience measurable relief. Some placebo responses produce actual changes in the physical condition; others are subjective changes that make patients feel better even though there has been no objective change in the underlying pathology.

4. People who hedge their bets credit the wrong thing. If improvement occurs after someone has had both "alternative" and science-based treatment, the fringe practice often gets a disproportionate share of the credit.

5. The original diagnosis or prognosis may have been incorrect. Scientifically trained physicians are not infallible. A mistaken diagnosis, followed by a trip to a shrine or an "alternative" healer, can lead to a glowing testimonial for curing a condition that would have resolved by itself. In other cases, the diagnosis may be correct but the time frame, which is inherently difficult to predict, might prove inaccurate.

6. Temporary mood improvement can be confused with cure. Alternative healers often have forceful, charismatic personalities. To the extent that patients are swept up by the messianic aspects of "alternative medicine," psychological uplift may ensue.

7. Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in "alternative medicine" can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and "face" to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most "alternative" therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.

Buyer Beware!

[DesertWonderer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCUP7hdCUX4

This lady's experience with Reiki (emotion code, energy healing, mesmerism...) is quite interesting. It goes a long way to explaining JR's visions and spirit guides.

[DesertWonderer]

Hilariously, every one of these describes Western medicine, lol!! =)) Fail.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... elief.html

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D.

Subtle forces can lead intelligent people (both patients and therapists) to think that a treatment has helped someone when it has not. This is true for new treatments in scientific medicine, as well as for nostrums in folk medicine, fringe practices in "alternative medicine," and the ministrations of faith healers.

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.

There are at least seven reasons why people may erroneously conclude that an ineffective therapy works:
1. The disease may have run its natural course. Many diseases are self-limiting. If the condition is not chronic or fatal, the body's own recuperative processes usually restore the sufferer to health. Thus, to demonstrate that a therapy is effective, its proponents must show that the number of patients listed as improved exceeds the number expected to recover without any treatment at all (or that they recover reliably faster than if left untreated). Without detailed records of successes and failures for a large enough number of patients with the same complaint, someone cannot legitimately claim to have exceeded the published norms for unaided recovery.

2. Many diseases are cyclical. Such conditions as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, allergies, and gastrointestinal problems normally have "ups and downs." Naturally, sufferers tend to seek therapy during the downturn of any given cycle. In this way, a bogus treatment will have repeated opportunities to coincide with upturns that would have happened anyway.

3. The placebo effect may be responsible. Through suggestion, belief, expectancy, cognitive reinterpretation, and diversion of attention, patients given biologically useless treatments often experience measurable relief. Some placebo responses produce actual changes in the physical condition; others are subjective changes that make patients feel better even though there has been no objective change in the underlying pathology.

4. People who hedge their bets credit the wrong thing. If improvement occurs after someone has had both "alternative" and science-based treatment, the fringe practice often gets a disproportionate share of the credit.

5. The original diagnosis or prognosis may have been incorrect. Scientifically trained physicians are not infallible. A mistaken diagnosis, followed by a trip to a shrine or an "alternative" healer, can lead to a glowing testimonial for curing a condition that would have resolved by itself. In other cases, the diagnosis may be correct but the time frame, which is inherently difficult to predict, might prove inaccurate.

6. Temporary mood improvement can be confused with cure. Alternative healers often have forceful, charismatic personalities. To the extent that patients are swept up by the messianic aspects of "alternative medicine," psychological uplift may ensue.

7. Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in "alternative medicine" can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and "face" to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most "alternative" therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.

Buyer Beware!

[Sasquatch]

Am I the only one who thinks "Denver Snuffer" sounds like a serial killer's nickname?

[AI2.0]

My responses to your questions in red:

But, if they claim to use their faith to heal, then why are they charging $25.00 for a half hour session over the phone? They cannot or should not be claiming to use their 'faith' to heal when they are charging money for it. I think all believers understand that this WOULD be considered evil and improper use of one's faith.
Out of the plethora of people doing it, can you point out those who claim "to use their faith to heal?"
$25 is cheap! Someone's getting a deal...Uh, that's what 'christ centered energy healing' is...are you saying they aren't claiming to use faith in Christ to heal? What do you think it is, if that's not what they mean? And, no, I don't think 25.00 a 1/2 hour session is cheap-- That's $100.00 an hour, and since a person needs several treatments on a regular basis, it's NOT cheap to receive Energy treatments. This is worse when you realize there are no guarantees for outcome.

When we are asked to use our combined faith in the temple, we don't charge money to do so. There's no comparison between an Energy healing session with an Energy Coach and exercising faith through our prayers for others.
So if there's no comparison, why do you keep comparing? Uh, I didn't bring up the comparison, that was in response to a comment by someone else on the thread who compared prayers by patrons in the temple to Energy healing.

Faith is one of the Gifts of God. We pray for miracles but we don't always recognize them. If a person is not healed, it is not simply because they lack faith or are wicked. Sometimes it is God's will that a person not be healed, at that time, or in the way we desire. If we are in tune with the spirit and submissive to God's will, hopefully we can come to understand God's will and timing.
True. And?It was a statement.

Priesthood is the authority to act in God's name.
True. And?This was a statement.

Priesthood holders are charged to give blessings and act in God's name in calling down powers from heaven, through faith. And of course, they do not charge money for their service.
True. And?This was a statement.

And as for those rare energy healers who do it for free...

It becomes a matter of who you put your trust in;

If I'm a believing, active member of the LDS church and I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer? It seems like an odd choice for LDS to reject Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system...

PLEASE, show me you are SANE and CONGRUENT by telling me you also do not use anything or anyone else, other than the priesthood, to heal. Why do you make these ridiculous and unreasonable assumptions? Energy healing is not medical science. I ask for priesthood blessings when I need them and I go to the doctor when I need to. What is wrong with you that you think I need to make a choice? The point I was making is that Energy healing is a new age belief system which has it's origins in the occult. Why I would be interested in something like that, since I'm LDS and that kind of thing is discouraged.
If I want the power of God to heal me, I'm going to get a priesthood blessing, because that's what priesthood blessings are for, to call down the powers of heaven on my behalf.

Go ahead and say: "I have access to the priesthood--why would I go to a doctor, psychologist, dentist, or any other healer?" If you can't repeat that sentence and mean it anymore than "I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer?", then this shows incredible lack of understanding, lack of a sound mind, or hypocrisy. Uh...I go to a dentist or a doctor etc. because I need
their professional services. Energy healing is something else altogether.

And I'm missing why EH means one "rejects Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system"--can you show it? Why do you believe the two are mutually exclusive? Johnny, I'm certain you can't have chosen to practice this without ever looking into it's origins? You know where it comes from, you must just be in denial because you don't want to have to quit doing it. The internet will answer your questions as to why it is a 'new age belief system'.

How about a Chinese belief system? Indian? hundreds of other indigenous "belief systems"? Are you against new knowledge and wisdom? Oh, as long as it is Western and "scientific", it's ok, right? Talk about racism!!!

You're starting to sound shrill.... Are we talking about medicine belief systems? If you think it's racism to not want to be treated by a witch doctor or be given ground up snake skin etc, then, I guess I'm racist,
by your standards. I think I avoid them because they don't work and could be harmful.

I don't think this discussion will go anywhere with you since you have a monetary interest in defending Energy healing.
Money has no connection to logic. Please show I am wrong.I can't show you how you are wrong, you refuse to SEE. You make money as an Energy healing practitioner, which prevents you from being objective and considering what has been posted.

When this is discussed you defenders always try to make it an either/or choice. You insist that if we won't allow for payment in faith healing, we can't allow for payment in medical healing.
What is "faith healing"? Why are you changing the terms/ words here? Not very honest. Faith healing--that's what is being addressed here....what's wrong with my calling it that? When energy practitioners claim to be healing by the power of Christ, they would say it is because they believe in Christ--they have 'faith' in him.

If we want a priesthood blessing then we CAN'T have regular medical treatment.
Yes you can, but you can't be a hypocrite with double standards about it. Are you serious? This is just dumb.
No one thinks like this. If someone gets in a car accident, they are taken to the hospital AND they are given a priesthood blessing. No reasonable person calls them a hypocrite.

But, since when did LDS become Christian Scientists? We've never believed or encouraged that. And, it isn't an either or choice. You know very well that most LDS use regular doctors AND prayer, fasting and priesthood blessings combined.
Thank you for saying "it isn't an either or choice".
And YOU know very well that EH does in no way rule out prayer, fasting, and priesthood blessings.Uh, where did I say that Energy healing patients don't pray, fast or get blessings? You have a bad habit of reading things into my posts and then challenging me on things I never said or even implied, let alone believe.

You want Energy healing to be considered as simply another form of medicine, but it's not. I'm not sure you even know the origins of 'energy healing' which you promote. If you did, you might be more aware of why I call it a new age belief system.
Please inform us.Uh no. If you haven't studied up on what you believe, you should do so, the internet makes it so easy. Why would I waste my time looking up information I already know and you would ignore. You need to do your own homework--that is, if you even care to find out.

Let's be honest. Do you really think you can be objective about this?
I have been, but it's easy to see you can't be. You seem willing to protect your paradigm at the extreme.You've never been objective about this topic. You've been posting on it for years, you never change. Do you think you may be protecting your own 'paradigm'?

You remind me of the angry silversmiths when Paul's preaching of the gospel hurt their business selling pagan idols. (Acts 19:24-28)
"..sirs, he know that by this craft we have our wealth."
"So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought;."
You remind me of "a girl":

A girl: "Heavenly Father says we have to fold our arms."
Me: "No, he doesn't."
Pudge: "Sister Slummer said so."
Me: "Well, she's a fathead. And you can tell her that Brother Kirby said so."
http://www.sltrib.com/news/5152791-155/ ... fined.gbpl

As a member of the church, you should have known better, you should not have gotten involved in Energy Healing and now, you stridently defend your 'craft' because it is your profession and it brings in income for you.
As has been shown over and over ad infinitum, you have no clue what you are talking about, nor can you make a logical case for it. As a member of the church, you should know better--be honest with yourself, and it's much easier to be honest with others. Start with directly answering all the questions I've asked. :ymhug: There, you can't claim I didn't answer your questions. But, in the future--please don't waste my time if you aren't going to ask sincere questions, questions for which you actually want an answer and will consider what I've said...

[butterfly]

Honestly, I'm very confused about what the exact issue is with energy healing. It seems like a forum member will give a legitimate answer to a concern and then someone moves to the next problem. Then that problem gets answered and the person returns to the original concern that was already resolved. I see no logical reasoning happening. For example:
Concern 1: Energy healers aren't using lds ordained priesthood
Resolution: Anyone can heal, you don't need lds ordained priesthood

Concern 2: Satan is healing in order to deceive
Resolution: Satan is not capable of healing so if someone is healed, it's not Satan that did it

Concern 3: Energy healers accept money while at the same time attributing the healing to God's power
Resolution: All the General Authorities of the church receive a stipend/living allowance so that they can dedicate their lives to doing God's work, too. GA's have to support their families, so do energy healers

Concern 4: Energy healers are wierd - they use crystals and magnets, etc
Resolution: Joseph Smith used rocks, divining rods, etc. Moses used a staff, Lehi had a liahona; LDS use bread and water and olive oil

Concern 5: People are wasting their money. Energy healing is all based on the placebo effect
Resolution: You make it sound like the placebo effect is a bad thing. The placebo effect is wonderful - the power of the mind over the body proves that if we can get our minds to believe, then the body will manifest it. Part of energy healing is teaching people how to use their minds to heal their bodies, aka the placebo effect. This is a good thing.

Concern 6: Energy healing is all "New Age." It's a sign of people being deceived in the last days
Resolution: There is nothing new about energy healing. Chinese medicine and the majority of indigenous peoples across the world have believed that in order to be healed physically, you must treat the spirit, too. Christ often forgave a person's sins before physically healing them. He treated both the spirit and the body.
The real "New Age" is going to a conventional doctor who disregards the spirit completely and only treats the physical. Their idea that the spirit/emotions have no impact on the physical body just reinforces atheistic ideals, while on the other hand, energy healing completely acknowledges the necessity of God in healing.

disclosure: I'm not saying that I support all forms of energy healing; there are a lot of different forms since it has been around for thousands of years and each culture has its own version. But the concerns that I see expressed here on the forum are not, imo, based on sound reasoning. They seem to be more rooted in fear and a lack of information.

Obviously, if you go to an energy healer and the spirit warns you to leave, then you should leave. That doesn't mean that ALL energy healing is inherently evil; it just means that particular situation was wrong for you at that time. If you don't feel comfortable with EH, then avoid it. But others may very well find that their path to God leads them through EH for a time. It is a very ancient practice and has a lot of pearls of wisdom for those who are able to discern between truth and error.

[JohnnyL]

My responses to your questions in red:

PLEASE, show me you are SANE and CONGRUENT by telling me you also do not use anything or anyone else, other than the priesthood, to heal. Why do you make these ridiculous and unreasonable assumptions? Energy healing is not medical science. I ask for priesthood blessings when I need them and I go to the doctor when I need to. What is wrong with you that you think I need to make a choice? The point I was making is that Energy healing is a new age belief system which has it's origins in the occult. Why I would be interested in something like that, since I'm LDS and that kind of thing is discouraged.
If I want the power of God to heal me, I'm going to get a priesthood blessing, because that's what priesthood blessings are for, to call down the powers of heaven on my behalf.

Go ahead and say: "I have access to the priesthood--why would I go to a doctor, psychologist, dentist, or any other healer?" If you can't repeat that sentence and mean it anymore than "I have access to Priesthood blessings, why would I not choose that and instead go to an Energy healer?", then this shows incredible lack of understanding, lack of a sound mind, or hypocrisy. Uh...I go to a dentist or a doctor etc. because I need
their professional services. Energy healing is something else altogether.
And THERE is your double standard and hypocrisy.

And I'm missing why EH means one "rejects Priesthood blessings in favor of the claims of a new Age belief system"--can you show it? Why do you believe the two are mutually exclusive? Johnny, I'm certain you can't have chosen to practice this without ever looking into it's origins? You know where it comes from, you must just be in denial because you don't want to have to quit doing it. The internet will answer your questions as to why it is a 'new age belief system'.
Could you just answer the question with an answer instead of a redirect? Are you actually serious and sane when you say "if you use energy healing, you can't get a blessing?" :ymsick:
I know where, do you? No, though you think you do, because you read an article somewhere on the internet and someone you trusted/ looked up to said it was true... 8-|

How about a Chinese belief system? Indian? hundreds of other indigenous "belief systems"? Are you against new knowledge and wisdom? Oh, as long as it is Western and "scientific", it's ok, right? Talk about racism!!!

You're starting to sound shrill.... Are we talking about medicine belief systems? If you think it's racism to not want to be treated by a witch doctor or be given ground up snake skin etc, then, I guess I'm racist, by your standards. I think I avoid them because they don't work and could be harmful.
No, not my standards. That's basic racism and xenophobia.
Don't work? Could be harmful? They've worked for thousands of years, and healed millions of people.

I don't think this discussion will go anywhere with you since you have a monetary interest in defending Energy healing.
Money has no connection to logic. Please show I am wrong.I can't show you how you are wrong, you refuse to SEE. You make money as an Energy healing practitioner, which prevents you from being objective and considering what has been posted.
You are trying to persuade... how? It's like you cooked old socks and are trying to tell me they taste good, and it's my fault if I don't like it. Sorry! Doesn't work that way, you know?

When this is discussed you defenders always try to make it an either/or choice. You insist that if we won't allow for payment in faith healing, we can't allow for payment in medical healing.
What is "faith healing"? Why are you changing the terms/ words here? Not very honest. Faith healing--that's what is being addressed here....what's wrong with my calling it that? When energy practitioners claim to be healing by the power of Christ, they would say it is because they believe in Christ--they have 'faith' in him.
So if I DON'T use faith, I can charge tens of thousands of dollars; but if I DO use faith, I can't charge. Are you going to answer the previous faith questions?

If we want a priesthood blessing then we CAN'T have regular medical treatment.
Yes you can, but you can't be a hypocrite with double standards about it. Are you serious? This is just dumb.
No one thinks like this. If someone gets in a car accident, they are taken to the hospital AND they are given a priesthood blessing. No reasonable person calls them a hypocrite.Not unless they claim "things like, "I have faith and the Priesthood, why do I need anything else?"

But, since when did LDS become Christian Scientists? We've never believed or encouraged that. And, it isn't an either or choice. You know very well that most LDS use regular doctors AND prayer, fasting and priesthood blessings combined.
Thank you for saying "it isn't an either or choice".
And YOU know very well that EH does in no way rule out prayer, fasting, and priesthood blessings.Uh, where did I say that Energy healing patients don't pray, fast or get blessings? You have a bad habit of reading things into my posts and then challenging me on things I never said or even implied, let alone believe.
Read above, in this very post. ;)

You want Energy healing to be considered as simply another form of medicine, but it's not. I'm not sure you even know the origins of 'energy healing' which you promote. If you did, you might be more aware of why I call it a new age belief system.
Please inform us.Uh no. If you haven't studied up on what you believe, you should do so, the internet makes it so easy. Why would I waste my time looking up information I already know and you would ignore. You need to do your own homework--that is, if you even care to find out.
Ha ha, I can do it, can you?? You can't. Who knows more, the person who thinks they know something, or the person who knows something, and can do it? Basic proof, I'd say.

Let's be honest. Do you really think you can be objective about this?
I have been, but it's easy to see you can't be. You seem willing to protect your paradigm at the extreme.You've never been objective about this topic. You've been posting on it for years, you never change. Do you think you may be protecting your own 'paradigm'?

You remind me of the angry silversmiths when Paul's preaching of the gospel hurt their business selling pagan idols. (Acts 19:24-28)
"..sirs, he know that by this craft we have our wealth."
"So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought;."
You remind me of "a girl":

A girl: "Heavenly Father says we have to fold our arms."
Me: "No, he doesn't."
Pudge: "Sister Slummer said so."
Me: "Well, she's a fathead. And you can tell her that Brother Kirby said so."
http://www.sltrib.com/news/5152791-155/ ... fined.gbpl

As a member of the church, you should have known better, you should not have gotten involved in Energy Healing and now, you stridently defend your 'craft' because it is your profession and it brings in income for you.
As has been shown over and over ad infinitum, you have no clue what you are talking about, nor can you make a logical case for it. As a member of the church, you should know better--be honest with yourself, and it's much easier to be honest with others. Start with directly answering all the questions I've asked. :ymhug: There, you can't claim I didn't answer your questions. But, in the future--please don't waste my time if you aren't going to ask sincere questions, questions for which you actually want an answer and will consider what I've said...

[JohnnyL]

Honestly, I'm very confused about what the exact issue is with energy healing. It seems like a forum member will give a legitimate answer to a concern and then someone moves to the next problem. Then that problem gets answered and the person returns to the original concern that was already resolved. I see no logical reasoning happening. For example:
Concern 1: Energy healers aren't using lds ordained priesthood
Resolution: Anyone can heal, you don't need lds ordained priesthood

Concern 2: Satan is healing in order to deceive
Resolution: Satan is not capable of healing so if someone is healed, it's not Satan that did it

Concern 3: Energy healers accept money while at the same time attributing the healing to God's power
Resolution: All the General Authorities of the church receive a stipend/living allowance so that they can dedicate their lives to doing God's work, too. GA's have to support their families, so do energy healers

Concern 4: Energy healers are wierd - they use crystals and magnets, etc
Resolution: Joseph Smith used rocks, divining rods, etc. Moses used a staff, Lehi had a liahona; LDS use bread and water and olive oil

Concern 5: People are wasting their money. Energy healing is all based on the placebo effect
Resolution: You make it sound like the placebo effect is a bad thing. The placebo effect is wonderful - the power of the mind over the body proves that if we can get our minds to believe, then the body will manifest it. Part of energy healing is teaching people how to use their minds to heal their bodies, aka the placebo effect. This is a good thing.

Concern 6: Energy healing is all "New Age." It's a sign of people being deceived in the last days
Resolution: There is nothing new about energy healing. Chinese medicine and the majority of indigenous peoples across the world have believed that in order to be healed physically, you must treat the spirit, too. Christ often forgave a person's sins before physically healing them. He treated both the spirit and the body.
The real "New Age" is going to a conventional doctor who disregards the spirit completely and only treats the physical. Their idea that the spirit/emotions have no impact on the physical body just reinforces atheistic ideals, while on the other hand, energy healing completely acknowledges the necessity of God in healing.

disclosure: I'm not saying that I support all forms of energy healing; there are a lot of different forms since it has been around for thousands of years and each culture has its own version. But the concerns that I see expressed here on the forum are not, imo, based on sound reasoning. They seem to be more rooted in fear and a lack of information.

Obviously, if you go to an energy healer and the spirit warns you to leave, then you should leave. That doesn't mean that ALL energy healing is inherently evil; it just means that particular situation was wrong for you at that time. If you don't feel comfortable with EH, then avoid it. But others may very well find that their path to God leads them through EH for a time. It is a very ancient practice and has a lot of pearls of wisdom for those who are able to discern between truth and error.

You have hit the nail on the head!! I have been asking from like five years ago for someone to actually come up with direct, clear problems, and answer some very basic questions that set forth principles to guide the discussion--and very few have even been able to do that, but there is no end in sight to the "EH is from Satan", etc. threads and posts. Out of the literally hundreds of posts, only a few posts have been like that. I would categorize most of the others as you say. Like Finrock said, it's like trying to discuss religion with a rabid anti-Mormon who has listened to his pastor who watched an anti-Mormon video or heard something from someone...

[AI2.0]

My final responses to this post in large:

My responses to your questions in red:

You're starting to sound shrill.... Are we talking about medicine belief systems? If you think it's racism to not want to be treated by a witch doctor or be given ground up snake skin etc, then, I guess I'm racist, by your standards. I think I avoid them because they don't work and could be harmful.


No, not my standards. That's basic racism and xenophobia.
Don't work? Could be harmful? They've worked for thousands of years, and healed millions of people.

Witchdoctors and shamans have 'worked for thousands of hears and healed millions of people'???? I guess that's why everyone is running out to get their services--everyone's flying to Africa and going to Indian reservations for medical treatment... because it's worked for thousands of years and healed millions of people....You can't really believe this, I'm assuming you are simply getting tired and have nothing better to offer.

I don't think this discussion will go anywhere with you since you have a monetary interest in defending Energy healing.
Money has no connection to logic. Please show I am wrong.I can't show you how you are wrong, you refuse to SEE. You make money as an Energy healing practitioner, which prevents you from being objective and considering what has been posted.

You are trying to persuade... how? It's like you cooked old socks and are trying to tell me they taste good, and it's my fault if I don't like it. Sorry! Doesn't work that way, you know?

Yep, you're getting tired and you can't think of anything, but you can't just let it go.

When this is discussed you defenders always try to make it an either/or choice. You insist that if we won't allow for payment in faith healing, we can't allow for payment in medical healing.
What is "faith healing"? Why are you changing the terms/ words here? Not very honest. Faith healing--that's what is being addressed here....what's wrong with my calling it that? When energy practitioners claim to be healing by the power of Christ, they would say it is because they believe in Christ--they have 'faith' in him.

So if I DON'T use faith, I can charge tens of thousands of dollars; but if I DO use faith, I can't charge. Are you going to answer the previous faith questions?

YES!!!!! Something we can finally agree on, you are starting to understand what I've been saying. Yes, you are free to charge whatever you want if you don't claim to be healing a person through Christ's power (which LDS recognize comes through faith). If you say you are using the power of christ or God, and you charge for your service, it's priestcraft or simony.
That's the whole point of the story of Peter and Simon Magus--it was fine when Peter healed people because he wasn't selling his healings--Magus wanted to buy the power to heal so he could sell it and make money--healings were not the problem, selling healing through God's power (not a doctor's expertise) is the problem. If you want to sell Energy healing as a healing practice but don't mention God's power or Christ's power, then fine, knock yourself out. Sell it all you want, I couldn't care less--to me it's just another thing like reading the Iris or the bumps on the head, who cares. People can buy those services if they choose and if you can talk them into thinking that you are manipulating energy around and actually doing something when you move your hands around---you can do that.

If we want a priesthood blessing then we CAN'T have regular medical treatment.
Yes you can, but you can't be a hypocrite with double standards about it. Are you serious? This is just dumb.
No one thinks like this. If someone gets in a car accident, they are taken to the hospital AND they are given a priesthood blessing. No reasonable person calls them a hypocrite.Not unless they claim "things like, "I have faith and the Priesthood, why do I need anything else?"

You've got some pretty odd ideas, to each his own.

But, since when did LDS become Christian Scientists? We've never believed or encouraged that. And, it isn't an either or choice. You know very well that most LDS use regular doctors AND prayer, fasting and priesthood blessings combined.
Thank you for saying "it isn't an either or choice".
And YOU know very well that EH does in no way rule out prayer, fasting, and priesthood blessings.Uh, where did I say that Energy healing patients don't pray, fast or get blessings? You have a bad habit of reading things into my posts and then challenging me on things I never said or even implied, let alone believe.
Read above, in this very post. ;)

I never said 'Energy healing patients don't pray, fast or get blessings', why would I say something like that which I don't believe? I would expect that they DO all those things also, if they are LDS. Your reading comprehension is off.

You want Energy healing to be considered as simply another form of medicine, but it's not. I'm not sure you even know the origins of 'energy healing' which you promote. If you did, you might be more aware of why I call it a new age belief system.
Please inform us.Uh no. If you haven't studied up on what you believe, you should do so, the internet makes it so easy. Why would I waste my time looking up information I already know and you would ignore. You need to do your own homework--that is, if you even care to find out.
Ha ha, I can do it, can you?? You can't. Who knows more, the person who thinks they know something, or the person who knows something, and can do it? Basic proof, I'd say.

Your comment makes no sense, but PLEASE don't try to explain it, this has gotten tiresome...

Let's be honest. Do you really think you can be objective about this?
I have been, but it's easy to see you can't be. You seem willing to protect your paradigm at the extreme.You've never been objective about this topic. You've been posting on it for years, you never change. Do you think you may be protecting your own 'paradigm'?

You remind me of the angry silversmiths when Paul's preaching of the gospel hurt their business selling pagan idols. (Acts 19:24-28)
"..sirs, he know that by this craft we have our wealth."
"So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought;."
You remind me of "a girl":


As a member of the church, you should have known better, you should not have gotten involved in Energy Healing and now, you stridently defend your 'craft' because it is your profession and it brings in income for you.
As has been shown over and over ad infinitum, you have no clue what you are talking about, nor can you make a logical case for it. As a member of the church, you should know better--be honest with yourself, and it's much easier to be honest with others. Start with directly answering all the questions I've asked. :ymhug: There, you can't claim I didn't answer your questions. But, in the future--please don't waste my time if you aren't going to ask sincere questions, questions for which you actually want an answer and will consider what I've said...