Energy Healing/Denver Snuffer/NDE and apostasy within the church

[Sarah]

Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.

References, or a personal feeling or doubt?

Is there any communication that cannot be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits? (Ever had an argument of misunderstanding with your spouse? ;) ) Yet, was it really "intercepted" and "acted upon by evil spirits"? If Satan can hear everything we say, isn't it possible for him to intercept and act on our words? Do we just stop talking, then?

Why would Satan release negative emotions and other negative things, so often, for so many people? Including unclean spirits?

Your body does it (yes, scientific studies, too), and more than likely, more than just your physical body, too. I wish I could know it all consciously, but... nope. But like Finrock said, it's possible there's a divine purpose in not being able to remember and know so many things at once; if so, I imagine many people would be bound and destroyed by sin (received and given) long before healing would occur.

As I've mentioned before, there are many strange natural laws in mortality (read the Life thread for some of that, especially resurrection salt).

Hypnosis can be bad, and it can be good. Some tools can be more dangerous than others (like driving a car is more dangerous than walking).

Do you believe that intuition is evil? What's the difference between inspiration and intuition?

My thoughts will have to wait - must run to do Activity Days!

[Chris]

So here is how I see this. Satan will twist anything he can to pull people away from Absolute truth and absolute power, which is having Faith in Jesus Christ & His church and priesthood!

Duplicates that the devil loves to use as almost a gateway drug to pull people away from truth are words like Karma, The universe, The secret, Energy Healing etc etc.

God can and will heal through the priesthood if we have faith and trust in him. The light of Christ is energy, light etc..... it is in everything.

If we turn to god with FAITH it will happen.

HOWEVER

I don't see anything wrong with PRAYING and then using doctors, herbs, medicine and a whole lot of positive thinking and faith in Christ. That is a wining combination. Going to someone to energize you is dangerous, because it takes your eyes off the mark, who is Jesus Christ. It reminds me of voodoo or something that is packed much cleaner, prettier and nicer.

I believe in positive thinking and think it can do a lot of good for your mood and also for your physical body. But don't let the devil deceive you into putting your faith into something that takes away from Christ and his true healing power FAITH & PRIESTHOOD. This kind goeth not out but by fasting and prayer-

[mirkwood]

Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH.

[Sarah]

Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.

References, or a personal feeling or doubt?

Is there any communication that cannot be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits? (Ever had an argument of misunderstanding with your spouse? ;) ) Yet, was it really "intercepted" and "acted upon by evil spirits"? If Satan can hear everything we say, isn't it possible for him to intercept and act on our words? Do we just stop talking, then?

Why would Satan release negative emotions and other negative things, so often, for so many people? Including unclean spirits?

Your body does it (yes, scientific studies, too), and more than likely, more than just your physical body, too. I wish I could know it all consciously, but... nope. But like Finrock said, it's possible there's a divine purpose in not being able to remember and know so many things at once; if so, I imagine many people would be bound and destroyed by sin (received and given) long before healing would occur.

As I've mentioned before, there are many strange natural laws in mortality (read the Life thread for some of that, especially resurrection salt).

Hypnosis can be bad, and it can be good. Some tools can be more dangerous than others (like driving a car is more dangerous than walking).

Do you believe that intuition is evil? What's the difference between inspiration and intuition?

My thoughts will have to wait - must run to do Activity Days!

I'll start with the last question - intuition - I don't usually use that word as part of my vocabulary, so my definition would be somewhere along the lines of what you feel is right, like what we all feel having the light of Christ as part of us. I would put "best guess" in the same category. And I wouldn't say that it is evil. Inspiration is a term I use to describe thoughts I receive from the Holy Ghost. If I was having thoughts and feeling from Satan and his followers I would call that temptation or false influences.

You gave the example of how some behaviors are more dangerous than others, like driving vs. walking, and I agree that just because we can be influenced doesn't mean we should stop that behavior. For example, I am a lot more susceptible to evil spirits while I am sleeping than while I am awake. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't sleep, but it does mean that I need to pray for protection as the scriptures teach us, and be aware of what is going on so I can expel the evil when it comes.

And this is one reason I think we should avoid having a healer intentionally place us in a state that is not fully awake, aware, or accountable, in order to influence or gain information. These techniques are indeed more dangerous in opening the door to evil influence.

When you have an argument with someone, you are putting yourself in an angry state or giving way to that temptation and I know from experience that it will only get worse if you don't repent of that sin of being angry with someone. So yes, avoid raising your voice as it invites evil to you. The point being, that some forms of communication should be avoided.

We are promised to always have the spirit with us as we keep God's commandments, and that is the influence we strive to have. So if someone tells me that one of the "modalities" includes the healer receiving thoughts in his or her mind, then the question must be, is it from the Holy Ghost, or from another spirit? I don't believe that these thoughts can somehow be transmitted mind to mind with no outside influence involved.

If a person is asking or commanding the body/mind/spirit to do something, then what power is making it happen. It is not the body/mind/spirit unless there is a conscious use of agency going on. Everything acts or is acted upon, so if the patient is not acting, but is being acted upon, then for sure it is either the good spirit or the bad. I don't see how your words have that much power unless they are key-words and signs.

Regarding your question as to why would Satan cast out his own spirit, or release negative emotions, or heal someone. The only answer I can give, and have see evidence of, is so that faith can be built in his power. I believe that evil spirits would do this if they knew it would help that person stray further away from the true gospel. The other option is that there indeed are some techniques that these spirits don't like and they are leaving, but if those techniques involve prayer, or using the Lord's name, and someone is casting devils out for money, I think that is using the Lord's name in vain, or without his authority.

[JohnnyL]

So here is how I see this. Satan will twist anything he can to pull people away from Absolute truth and absolute power, which is having Faith in Jesus Christ & His church and priesthood!

Duplicates that the devil loves to use as almost a gateway drug to pull people away from truth are words like Karma, The universe, The secret, Energy Healing etc etc.

God can and will heal through the priesthood if we have faith and trust in him. The light of Christ is energy, light etc..... it is in everything.

If we turn to god with FAITH it will happen.

HOWEVER

I don't see anything wrong with PRAYING and then using doctors, herbs, medicine and a whole lot of positive thinking and faith in Christ. That is a wining combination. Going to someone to energize you is dangerous, because it takes your eyes off the mark, who is Jesus Christ. It reminds me of voodoo or something that is packed much cleaner, prettier and nicer.

I believe in positive thinking and think it can do a lot of good for your mood and also for your physical body. But don't let the devil deceive you into putting your faith into something that takes away from Christ and his true healing power FAITH & PRIESTHOOD. This kind goeth not out but by fasting and prayer-

No offense, Chris, but this is rehash of most every other con-EHer in this thread. Responses have been given for the past seven or so pages, so I infer that you haven't read. No response.

[JohnnyL]

Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH.

Wait for it...

Oh MYYYY! Yes, it is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE red flag, all beware, now we can know for surety that it is of ... SATAN. <gasps>

I am completely comfortable with what I do, however, you are not. #-o

Seriously, do you have no connection to the internet? Are you unable to read? Are you incapable of using a search page? Are you incapable of using youtube?

This is pitiful trolling.

Have you ever paid for EH? No? Then we know your bias against it. :ymsick:

[Finrock]

Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH.

I agree that if someone is earning a living from something they will likely have a bias towards it or in favor of it. However, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the things that are being said regarding EH. The same can be said about doctors who support their craft or people who depend on doctors for their health. Everyone has a bias to some degree in something. You would have to demonstrate how his bias is affecting his reasoning in a way that would invalidate his reasoning.

-Finrock

[Chris]

So here is how I see this. Satan will twist anything he can to pull people away from Absolute truth and absolute power, which is having Faith in Jesus Christ & His church and priesthood!

Duplicates that the devil loves to use as almost a gateway drug to pull people away from truth are words like Karma, The universe, The secret, Energy Healing etc etc.

God can and will heal through the priesthood if we have faith and trust in him. The light of Christ is energy, light etc..... it is in everything.

If we turn to god with FAITH it will happen.

HOWEVER

I don't see anything wrong with PRAYING and then using doctors, herbs, medicine and a whole lot of positive thinking and faith in Christ. That is a wining combination. Going to someone to energize you is dangerous, because it takes your eyes off the mark, who is Jesus Christ. It reminds me of voodoo or something that is packed much cleaner, prettier and nicer.

I believe in positive thinking and think it can do a lot of good for your mood and also for your physical body. But don't let the devil deceive you into putting your faith into something that takes away from Christ and his true healing power FAITH & PRIESTHOOD. This kind goeth not out but by fasting and prayer-

No offense, Chris, but this is rehash of most every other con-EHer in this thread. Responses have been given for the past seven or so pages, so I infer that you haven't read. No response.

Does that make it not true?

[JohnnyL]

Energy is such a vague term, and it isn't something you can measure, but I can at least consider that there might be truth there and that disturbances in this "energy" would cause problems. That's why I don't have a problem with foot zoning, reflexology, massage, & acupressure, as Bethany mentioned. And the idea of using magnets seem harmless, if the INTENT is simply to disrupt the "energy" flowing within you using a device or pressure to do so. At least you are in control of a physical manipulation when you are trying to disrupt this energy.

When I think of "Energy Healing", I think about muscle testing, hypnotism, or receiving thoughts/revelation in one's mind, or using words to command/ask the body/energy to do something, or see how the body will move or respond. This is relying on communication which can be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits. And that it what I think is dangerous. You think you are asking the body to release these emotions when it is really Satan that is doing the "releasing." It's this questionable idea in my mind that the body can communicate unconscious feelings without the conscious mind being aware of it, which communication I see as likely being influenced by evil spirits to gain the trust of the user of these methods.

References, or a personal feeling or doubt?

Is there any communication that cannot be intercepted and acted upon by evil spirits? (Ever had an argument of misunderstanding with your spouse? ;) ) Yet, was it really "intercepted" and "acted upon by evil spirits"? If Satan can hear everything we say, isn't it possible for him to intercept and act on our words? Do we just stop talking, then?

Why would Satan release negative emotions and other negative things, so often, for so many people? Including unclean spirits?

Your body does it (yes, scientific studies, too), and more than likely, more than just your physical body, too. I wish I could know it all consciously, but... nope. But like Finrock said, it's possible there's a divine purpose in not being able to remember and know so many things at once; if so, I imagine many people would be bound and destroyed by sin (received and given) long before healing would occur.

As I've mentioned before, there are many strange natural laws in mortality (read the Life thread for some of that, especially resurrection salt).

Hypnosis can be bad, and it can be good. Some tools can be more dangerous than others (like driving a car is more dangerous than walking).

Do you believe that intuition is evil? What's the difference between inspiration and intuition?

We are promised to always have the spirit with us as we keep God's commandments, and that is the influence we strive to have. So if someone tells me that one of the "modalities" includes the healer receiving thoughts in his or her mind, then the question must be, is it from the Holy Ghost, or from another spirit? I don't believe that these thoughts can somehow be transmitted mind to mind with no outside influence involved.

I think you answered that with your intuition answer.

If a person is asking or commanding the body/mind/spirit to do something, then what power is making it happen. It is not the body/mind/spirit unless there is a conscious use of agency going on. Everything acts or is acted upon, so if the patient is not acting, but is being acted upon, then for sure it is either the good spirit or the bad. I don't see how your words have that much power unless they are key-words and signs.

As I said before, there generally IS a conscious use of agency going on.

When you take herbs, do they act on you, or do you act on them?

What do you believe about the third spirit that Joseph Smith spoke about?

Words are powerful! "God spoke..." and everything follows from that. Words guide thought and intent. Lots of studies and experiments show some pretty amazing things with that.

If you don't see, I would suggest watching or reading up on the topic, especially how it relates to EH.

Regarding your question as to why would Satan cast out his own spirit, or release negative emotions, or heal someone. The only answer I can give, and have see evidence of, is so that faith can be built in his power. I believe that evil spirits would do this if they knew it would help that person stray further away from the true gospel. The other option is that there indeed are some techniques that these spirits don't like and they are leaving, but if those techniques involve prayer, or using the Lord's name, and someone is casting devils out for money, I think that is using the Lord's name in vain, or without his authority.

So there's a man who helps people overcome pornography addiction, especially LDS. When that happens (often in 1-2 sessions), his clients go back to church and do much better at living the gospel overall (not hard to imagine, right?). In addition, many people who experience some EH forget they ever had a problem that you helped them with (it's called "the apex effect"). If that were all Satan, how would that serve him? I mean, it's much easier to see it's not Satan--if your paradigm hasn't already been firmly established.

It could also be, there are natural ways to help spirits leave--in fact, books have been written about this (links were given in other threads about one). Please read this short article, and you will have more insight into lots of your questions and thoughts (from a Catholic publication!): https://www.ncronline.org/news/spiritua ... nd-therapy . Here are some books: https://www.spiritrelease.com/books-SR.htm .
You might also find that yes, prayer does play a part in some of these!

Do you believe that someone can "run around the Lord's back" using his power (we already know they would obviously not have his authority)? Pull a sneaky on Him? That His power would somehow flow through them, without his knowing it and condoning it? It doesn't make sense to me, and that it would ever work.

I agree/ can certainly see the parts of your post that I left out.

[Thinker]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

[JohnnyL]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

I didn't note an explanation, really. Give me a good scientific explanation, or dictionary definition, of "spiritual healing".

But I do note an appeal to spirituality as a line of reasoning... "I feel, therefore it is." :ymsigh:

Once more, what is spiritual healing? If we can't even define it, how can we argue about it?

[bethany]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.

[AI2.0]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.

This claim of yours, that ONE energy healing session miraculously healed a man--This sounds like the kind of claims I read for miracle weight loss, magnetic bracelets, and any number of expensive vitamin supplements. They make these claims to get people to buy their product, but when you do, you find it doesn't work. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that energy healing is THAT miraculous. If it was, then everyone would be using it, just like how everyone would be using the miracle products that claim fantastic results.

Bethany, you are very passionate about energy healing, but one thing that has always concerned me about you--you are also critical of Priesthood power and priesthood authority. That to me, is one of the 'red flags' that I noticed as you've shared your insights on Energy healing.

[AI2.0]

Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH.

Wait for it...

Oh MYYYY! Yes, it is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE red flag, all beware, now we can know for surety that it is of ... SATAN. <gasps>

I am completely comfortable with what I do, however, you are not. #-o

Seriously, do you have no connection to the internet? Are you unable to read? Are you incapable of using a search page? Are you incapable of using youtube?

This is pitiful trolling.

Have you ever paid for EH? No? Then we know your bias against it. :ymsick:

Did you read what you wrote? Do you think this is a logical argument? If I don't pay for something then I have a bias against it? You do realize there are lots of things we don't pay for and it certainly doesn't mean we don't want the things--maybe we do, but we just can't afford them.

YOU are an energy practitioner. You've admitted it in past posts. Why so defensive about the money you receive for it? If you charge for your services, shouldn't you be upfront about it, rather than trying to deflect with such nonsensical arguments? I believe you also said in a past post that you don't do 'Christ centered' energy healing. If that's the case, I don't care if you charge or not. It's not priestcraft if you aren't claiming to use the power of God to heal. It's probably an emotional placebo for your clients and if it makes them feel better, then that's a service of sorts....

[bethany]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.

This claim of yours, that ONE energy healing session miraculously healed a man--This sounds like the kind of claims I read for miracle weight loss, magnetic bracelets, and any number of expensive vitamin supplements. They make these claims to get people to buy their product, but when you do, you find it doesn't work. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that energy healing is THAT miraculous. If it was, then everyone would be using it, just like how everyone would be using the miracle products that claim fantastic results.

Bethany, you are very passionate about energy healing, but one thing that has always concerned me about you--you are also critical of Priesthood power and priesthood authority. That to me, is one of the 'red flags' that I noticed as you've shared your insights on Energy healing.

Not critical AT ALL of priesthood, just those who take it as a ticket to abuse. Or create an abusive situation/cycle of nonaction. Just a circle of excuses. 'It's your fault you have this issue... You are stuck w your chain of authority.... It must be Gods will that you suffer...' All excuses for lack of knowing what to do and unwillingness to learn. It's ok. Nobody wants to deal w ugly stuff.

Btw, the young man was far from healed, but he was able to move his legs & body again. He lived in India & had been cursed to die. 1 session merely released him from a curse of death. There was much more work to do. What you call healing is not the same definition in what I do. We work in layers all the way back to the beliefs that allowed a person to do this to another. It's not your vision of spending 30-40 min administering to a person.

I didn't wake up one day & say hey, this looks like an activity I can engage in.... No, my life was taken here, inspiration and divine intervention from way back. I stayed as far away from this subject as possible for all my youth. Then one day when I was involved w lobbying on behalf of the church and at the state capital, a senator invited us to his issue. It dealt w satanism & sacrifices, he had introduced a bill regarding that. As I sat there and watched the vote unfold in committee I talked to God... 'I don't know why you brought me here. I'm really scared to ask. This is the last place I want to be & ive never wanted to know this subject.' I was busy lobbying against gambling and we did this because my friend was asked to do it by the church. She had worked on many issues in our state when the church felt an obligation to express their values. This senator was really brave to take up this issue & I was very impressed with his ideals.

From there God introduced me to many who suffer from this thing. They were in every ward I ever attended, abusers and victims. But they are ignored, there's no program for them to fit in. It was years before I found energy healing. Finally I had a response for those who suffered.

[JohnnyL]

...
Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.

This claim of yours, that ONE energy healing session miraculously healed a man--This sounds like the kind of claims I read for miracle weight loss, magnetic bracelets, and any number of expensive vitamin supplements. They make these claims to get people to buy their product, but when you do, you find it doesn't work. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that energy healing is THAT miraculous. If it was, then everyone would be using it, just like how everyone would be using the miracle products that claim fantastic results.

Bethany, you are very passionate about energy healing, but one thing that has always concerned me about you--you are also critical of Priesthood power and priesthood authority. That to me, is one of the 'red flags' that I noticed as you've shared your insights on Energy healing.

AI2.0, Did you attend the U of U? (Just wondering, with all those red flags.)

If it were that miraculous, you and all the other anti-EHers wouldn't change your mind anyways, right? So why would you say that? Do you think that you and some others on this board are the only close-minded, brainwashed, boxed, judgmental, threatening people on earth?? #-o

[JohnnyL]

Why is it relevant to the discussion to know how much JohnnyL charges?

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH.

Wait for it...

Oh MYYYY! Yes, it is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE red flag, all beware, now we can know for surety that it is of ... SATAN. <gasps>

I am completely comfortable with what I do, however, you are not. #-o

Seriously, do you have no connection to the internet? Are you unable to read? Are you incapable of using a search page? Are you incapable of using youtube?

This is pitiful trolling.

Have you ever paid for EH? No? Then we know your bias against it. :ymsick:

Did you read what you wrote? Do you think this is a logical argument? If I don't pay for something then I have a bias against it? You do realize there are lots of things we don't pay for and it certainly doesn't mean we don't want the things--maybe we do, but we just can't afford them.

YOU are an energy practitioner. You've admitted it in past posts. Why so defensive about the money you receive for it? If you charge for your services, shouldn't you be upfront about it, rather than trying to deflect with such nonsensical arguments? I believe you also said in a past post that you don't do 'Christ centered' energy healing. If that's the case, I don't care if you charge or not. It's not priestcraft if you aren't claiming to use the power of God to heal. It's probably an emotional placebo for your clients and if it makes them feel better, then that's a service of sorts....

No, I didn't read what I wrote. Let me read it now... Ok. I stand by it. There are lots of things we don't pay for because, basically, it's we don't believe it, or that it's worth it.

But that's not clear enough for you, huh? Here, how about this: Would you pay? Absolutely not. Would mirkwood pay? Absolutely not. Would Thinker pay? Absolutely not. And on and on. See, it's that "absolutely" part that seals the argument (I had imagined you would have understood that, but here, it's laid out better). What if it were on sale, an hour of healing for $1? Any changes? Nah.

Yes, I AM an EH. Why does not answering a question cause you such deep, dire concern? It's not like anyone (including you) has answered even 10% of the questions I've asked, and 80% of those 10% were in a round-about, unclear, summaried attempt. I assume that you and the others CAN'T answer them, so I don't press the issue, leaving it up to people to stop and . So, what are you assuming? (Hey, there's another question for you! )

How much does your husband make a year? What does he do? How much do you give in fast offerings? Hey, don't worry, I have hundreds of questions that are causing me deep, dire concern... (-| And the ones I haven't asked yet, that you won't answer, will no doubt show that your defensiveness and deflection really are cause for deep, dire concern, showing how biased you are, lol, right?

By the way, what is "the power of God"? Can you give me a nice, clear, definition?

[bethany]

One last comment on if energy healing was all that miraculous... not all energy healers or methods are created equal. I beat the bushes & invested tons of time & study (and yes $$) in learning. I visited about 5 different people, each of which had attained a certain level & area of focus with their abilities. Each offered some measure of help. Finally I found someone that had a greater capacity & stuck with them. So, you can certainly go to someone who is inexperienced or maybe their intentions are not pure or brings negativity into their work... say they have evil motives. You will also find the exact same thing in priesthood holders, I had a friend come to me over a year ago & share that they were given a blessing by someone & how they felt terrible darkness come over them. I told them to simply state that they did not accept that darkness & rebuke the blessing. He did so, he used his own priesthood to cast out what had happened to him. So, "evil" because of the tree of knowledge of good & evil pokes its head in anywhere it can. So yes, you can find dark energy practitioners & you can find pure ones. You can find light & dark in every aspect of life until the millennium is established on the Earth.

As for those quick miracles, I've witnessed tons. My father-in-law went to the hospital early on when I first got my Body Code system. I was very new into energy healing & was fascinated by what I was learning. I found out on sat that he was in the hospital & tests were scheduled to begin on monday to find out what was wrong with him. After I went to church on sunday, I decided to see if I could help him through body code. I spent about an hour & a half going through Dr. Nelson's guided diagnostics & remedies, following everything exactly. I found that every organ in his body except his heart which was probably the only thing keeping him alive was disconnected from his spirit. Dr. Nelson teaches how to reconnect - after moving the trauma that created it... come monday morning, his vitals were restored to normal & tests were cancelled & he went home never knowing why he had an episode. I've seen body code work this miraculously countless times. Any trauma can cause this type of disconnection, it can be emotional, physical, psychological, mental, spiritual... the trauma has to be cleared & the connection restored. A lot of people with organ failure are suffering this very thing. The spirit gives life & if it is disconnected, the organ begins to fail. A friend who had done energy for years was approached by the parents of an accident victim, she was hit as a pedestrian by a car & spent a year in a comatose state. They asked her if she could try to help. She went to the hospital & saw that the accident victim was disconnected from her spirit. All she did was ask the girl's spirit to re-enter her body and connect. Within 24 hours the girl was awake. I already posted that another friend's father-in-law was admitted to the hospital with sudden kidney failure (that morning he had suffered a heart attack & they used paddles on him) the shock of the paddles, the trauma caused the kidney's to disconnect from the spirit. I knew this friend on a different LDS forum & he did energy work but not Nelson's Body Code, so I gave him the instructions to use & he was able to reconnect his father-in-law's kidneys. Within 2 hours that man who had been comatose, was admitted to ICU and expected to decease was up asking for food & his kidney's were working. That doctor said it was his first time in his career to release a man directly from ICU to go home.

Energy work is not just about casting out or rebuking... there are many aspects to this work. Every single person is capable of doing it. In fact every single person does do 'energy work' on themselves every single day. What you choose to think & feel when you wake up immediately effects your being. You say your day is going to be miserable, you will no doubt have a miserable day. You choose to send hate or gossip or destructive thoughts to someone, you literally affect that person with your negativity. If a person expresses disdain for a body part... let's say women who are unhappy with saggy body parts, they look at those parts with frustration, they will literally create negative conditions in those parts and can cause illness to form there. So the most basic form of energy healing would be kindness & loving expressions for everyone.

Dr. Nelson shared an interesting story in his book, the Emotion Code... he talked about a person's blood sample being taken miles away & then tested. Hateful intentions were expressed to this blood sample as the person was monitored, the person absolutely responded with his body's reactions registering the discordant energy even though it was only being directed to his blood. You can define it how you wish, but some of us call it 'energy'... you can call it spiritual, emotional connections.. it doesn't matter what it's named. Its all the same. Our words are either swords or healing balm. It's just a way to use your words with the intention of improvement.

[BackBlast]

If he charges money, it tells me what his level of bias is towards EH. Pretty simple. His lack of response to the question speaks volumes as to his personal bias/vestment in EH.

This is technically a debate rule violation, the topic is properly held to be the subject at hand. It is not to be shifted to be about the person, especially the debate opponent. Which is so easily altered into name calling, guilt by association, etc, etc.

IE, Robert's Rules #43

“It is not allowable to arraign the motives of a member, but the nature or consequences of a measure may be condemned in strong terms. It is not the man, but the measure, that is the subject of debate.”

Not that we are following Robert's Rules here precisely, but the principles therein can help keep things on topic, in order, and fair, etc.

[Thinker]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

I didn't note an explanation, really. Give me a good scientific explanation, or dictionary definition, of "spiritual healing".

But I do note an appeal to spirituality as a line of reasoning... "I feel, therefore it is." :ymsigh:

Once more, what is spiritual healing? If we can't even define it, how can we argue about it?

What's your definition of spiritual healing, Johnny? Do you think it is about pride or humility? Do you think it's about self-awareness or ignorance? Does spiritual healing come from YOU, or God?

The superficial stages of spiritual healing are psychological healing - and ultimately, it is up to oneself - with spiritual guidance/help. Nobody can sort through all of one's shadow subconscious but problematic issues except the one experiencing them. Psychological healing could be expressed in detailed stages of spiral dynamics - but essentially it's peeling layers of dysfunctional beliefs (and related e-motion, motives & habits). Beyond that, is spiritual healing, which is even more personal, gradual & experiential more than something you can label, and not scientifically based. In fact, part of the reason I see a problem with charging money for spiritual healing is that spiritual healing works by God's will - not ours. Spirit is of God not man-made nor man-controlled. When you try to FORCE spirit, that is when you get lower spiritual energies that resonate with force (generally not the best spirits). You cannot put people in a lab, and conduct a scientifically controlled study about spiritual healing because again, it is not something we control. Divination tools are tools but not guarantees - they don't always work every time. They work based on God's will and faith. It's wrong to charge money for something you didn't really control or do.

[Thinker]

And we still don't have a definition for "spiritual healing", nor an argument as to why it would be wrong to charge for it.

Evidence is only evidence to those who recognize it as such.
I explained it over and over, but you didn't like my explanations. http://therawness.com/wp-content/upload ... o1_500.png

Deep down, we all have consciences - we have the light of Christ - to know right from wrong.
Deep down, it feels wrong to charge money for spirituality.

Jesus saw mixing money with spirituality as wrong. He expressed righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple when they were using it to make money. My spiritual healing is between God and me - money has no place in it.

Because of what I see, my experiences & things I've witnessed... ppl who have had the unfortunate experience of being victims of ritual abuse & similar - I'm very grateful that you do not need to pay for spiritual healing - But I doubt any of you would stand by wringing your hands if your daughter experienced comatose states for long period of times, shaking violently & uncontrollably, tormented by violent night terrors... I could go on & describe things I've witnessed but I doubt any of you would stand by & simply say it must be God's will therefore, we'll endure while she attempts suicide or goes off many other sad paths trying to make sense of life. Everyone of the people I've seen suffer tried the priesthood route, everyone of them. Not that I've met everyone that suffers this, but I have yet to hear any referrals or testimonials where someone said... 'wow, one trip to Br. So & So & my child was made whole again.' If you know of any, feel free to inform.

I don't really care that people don't feel the need to incorporate energy healing in their lives, but it's obnoxious to throw insults at those who have not found help in the traditional way or in the way that 'you will grant them permission' to find it. There are people on this board who suffer things you don't involve yourselves in. It's hard constant work. It's not the type of thing that someone shows up once a month & marks it off.

I'm not being rude to you Thinker, I've enjoyed many of your postings & wondered where you went... nice to see you. MCox, you can say that the path you tried was evil, but unless you tried them all, you're not qualified to condemn them all. If someone finds relief from torment, it's their call. I've seen people go down many paths... priesthood, psychology, pharmacy, naturopathy... years spent seeking someone to help them & finally finding help. One woman spent abt 7 years seeking & said that in 2 visits with an energy healer she had done more than 7 years of searching & begging for help. That child is making tremendous progress now after 2 months & finally believes that she can be free.

These threads go the way that they go, there is no difference, just people sitting in their chairs throwing insults at those who have the hard fights. I've had a lot of pm's over the years because of these threads. But not one message offering help for the helpless. I guess I could toss out the 'that speaks volumes to me' like others did.

I met a woman whose brother spent 3 months banging his head against the wall, incapacitated in bed, & nearly starved to death because he was incapable of eating. In one session he was back at college. Just sad really. I don't really post for you guys, just for those who need help & might feel cowed by those who think they know better.

Bethany,
No doubt, there are people going through tough times - spiritually, as you seem to have gone through.

I can relate. I've experienced more than you might imagine. I know that there are good and evil spirits - and that battles happen spiritually. I didn't pay someone to come and take care of my child. I prayed, researched & said some prayers out loud and things improved. I believe in energy healing. I've taught my children to put their hands out, palms facing each other, close their eyes, and feel the energy. And they feel it, as I do. I've prayed and blessed them. I believe we all, especially motherly women, have the natural inherent ability to heal - no setting apart needed. God already set us apart. And no need to pay someone to give me what God endowed me with.

The healing arts have fascinated me so I researched the major ones. I came to the conclusion that they all work based on faith - placebo effect, specifically - all except acupressure/acupuncture. Just because it's all in our minds doesn't mean healing arts should be dismissed - but rather they need to be recognized for what they are - divination tools that work based on belief and God's will. God planted in each of us a miraculous seed of so much - maybe everything! And how do we access that potential? Not by paying money to someone else. But by learning line-upon-line... increasing our awareness. Remember how Jesus said if you take out evil spirits of someone but don't replace a cleaned out mind with good things, the evil spirits will return stronger and in greater number. To me, this means that each of us need to take responsibility for our own mental and spiritual health - we can't expect someone to do our spiritual and psychological work for us.

I do believe there is order in this universe - that things happen based on cause and effect not just in the natural world, but also spiritually. The challenge is learning how that works when a lot of it is beyond logic and more conscious-based (I AM THAT I AM - God is that consciousness aware of consciousness). Faith may seem like empty fluff to some skeptics - but it's powerful! The FDA bases their study of medication effectiveness on belief (placebo effect). Metaphysically, we are powerful - if we just learn to direct our psych-ology (study of the soul) - to improve thinking, feeling and habits - so we're healthier physically, mentally and spiritually. Nobody can do this for us - even if you give them a lot of MONEY - each person is his/her own agent. Free agency is truly a priceless thing not to be given up.

"There must needs be opposition in all things." In the midst of them, challenges feel really awful, but in the big picture, they are what help us grow and become stronger - if we confront them head on - with God's help. Others can help lessen the burden, but ultimately, the real healing is by God - from that seed that God planted within us. That seed that God gave us is not something others have the right to charge money for.

[Thinker]

EH heals nothing.

Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D.

Subtle forces can lead intelligent people (both patients and therapists) to think that a treatment has helped someone when it has not. This is true for new treatments in scientific medicine, as well as for nostrums in folk medicine, fringe practices in "alternative medicine," and the ministrations of faith healers.

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.

There are at least seven reasons why people may erroneously conclude that an ineffective therapy works:
1. The disease may have run its natural course. Many diseases are self-limiting. If the condition is not chronic or fatal, the body's own recuperative processes usually restore the sufferer to health. Thus, to demonstrate that a therapy is effective, its proponents must show that the number of patients listed as improved exceeds the number expected to recover without any treatment at all (or that they recover reliably faster than if left untreated). Without detailed records of successes and failures for a large enough number of patients with the same complaint, someone cannot legitimately claim to have exceeded the published norms for unaided recovery.

2. Many diseases are cyclical. Such conditions as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, allergies, and gastrointestinal problems normally have "ups and downs." Naturally, sufferers tend to seek therapy during the downturn of any given cycle. In this way, a bogus treatment will have repeated opportunities to coincide with upturns that would have happened anyway.

3. The placebo effect may be responsible. Through suggestion, belief, expectancy, cognitive reinterpretation, and diversion of attention, patients given biologically useless treatments often experience measurable relief. Some placebo responses produce actual changes in the physical condition; others are subjective changes that make patients feel better even though there has been no objective change in the underlying pathology.

4. People who hedge their bets credit the wrong thing. If improvement occurs after someone has had both "alternative" and science-based treatment, the fringe practice often gets a disproportionate share of the credit.

5. The original diagnosis or prognosis may have been incorrect. Scientifically trained physicians are not infallible. A mistaken diagnosis, followed by a trip to a shrine or an "alternative" healer, can lead to a glowing testimonial for curing a condition that would have resolved by itself. In other cases, the diagnosis may be correct but the time frame, which is inherently difficult to predict, might prove inaccurate.

6. Temporary mood improvement can be confused with cure. Alternative healers often have forceful, charismatic personalities. To the extent that patients are swept up by the messianic aspects of "alternative medicine," psychological uplift may ensue.

7. Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in "alternative medicine" can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and "face" to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most "alternative" therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.

Buyer Beware!

The job of distinguishing real from spurious causal relationships requires well designed studies and logical abstractions from large bodies of data. Many sources of error can mislead people who rely on intuition or informal reasoning to analyze complex events. Before agreeing to any kind of treatment, you should feel confident that it makes sense and has been scientifically validated through studies that control for placebo responses, compliance effects, and judgmental errors. You should be very wary if the "evidence" consists merely of testimonials, self-published pamphlets or books, or items from the popular media.

Several good points...
God has given us bodies that self-heal if given time - and some may assume the energy healers did what their bodies did.
Doctors are practicing - so often (in my case more often than not) they misdiagnose initially - so later, another doctor may declare them free of some previously diagnosed problem and patient assumes they were healed (when really it was just something else that was the problem, so the previously thought problem seems healed).

The main slight disagreement I might have is that basically #3, 6 & 7 may be illusional beliefs, but they are powerful. The placebo effect is powerful - there is no doubt about it. And I see using that power in good ways as an important part of physical, psychological and spiritual healing. The key is to ensure illusions are functional - then they are "priceless."

[bethany]

Sorry Thinker, your comments don't even approach what I work with.

I think LDS people love to compete - going back to the wider audience. Its one of the reasons I dropped the magazines about 12 years ago. I read an issue of the New Era & most of the content focused on valuing each individual based on where they could 'best' someone else. All about how awesome a lone lds kid at his school could run faster than everyone else & garnered ribbons, etc. Then it went through each of his siblings & what they could best everyone at.... tying their value & virtue only to how they could shine for honors and represent the church. That was the last issue I allowed in my house & it went the way of the trash very quickly.

I don't charge for what I do because I choose to. I am no more virtuous than Johnny or anybody I've ever paid to sit with me for an hour or 2 hours while we work together to find the core of an issue. And despite what we've been taught, its not about the devils & spirits. They are nothing more than opportunists. If someone breaks into your house because they could get through the barriers, its really a reflection of insufficient barriers & boundaries, its not that you've got to lock up all the burglars. It's the barriers that allowed them in. Its not the clean mind, its the strength & structure of the mind, the temple of God. Lots of people keep their children locked up tight from the world, living away from society, no tv, no outside influence, in the end, they become infiltrated when they are faced with stuff despite their clean hands & minds.

Because the mind & temple that they are was built in a faulty way on dna that allowed things in. If we had the pure & perfect dna that was originally brought into this world, there would be no space where demons & unclean spirits could get in. There would be no multi personalities, fractionated beings... people who deal with split personalities have nothing to do with being possessed or casting out. Entities are just the vultures coming along to eat the carcass. They simply saw the cracks & scooted in.

I'm gonna hibernate again from the forum for a while, it's like talking apples & oranges.

Everyone may have the seed of perfection within them, but some have been so fractured that they need help getting back to that perfection. I've watched for 35 years, I've watched people raised in satanic homes having the assistance of stellar priesthood holders & no improvement. In speaking with Elder Pace of the 70, who had experience in this, I asked him directly for guidance on how to help someone, he told me that despite all his efforts he did not produce improvements. Despite his constant blessings & reaching out to help, the people continued to struggle in the same manner. So since we are 'competing', please share with me your priesthood rank & the success you've produced in completely healing this issue? Elder Pace instructed me to continue my pursuits in energy healing. So if you've had experience & success, I'm not mocking you. Bring it to the board, share it with those who are battling something beyond vicious. I think Elder Pace reached a rank beyond what the ppl on this board have reached if we are taking about lines of authority. Counsel others based on your experience not your perceptions.

Again, I'm not talking about simple matters that need a blessing, some entity cast out & you go on your merry way. For that reason, I find it pointless to continue the discussion. I don't expect to convince the naysayers, I merely expect that people who read this will continue to fight, continue to search & reach & believe that God has answers for them & that there are quite a few out there seeking to resolve these issues & asking for those answers. Don't give up.

[JohnnyL]

Sorry Thinker, your comments don't even approach what I work with.

I think LDS people love to compete - going back to the wider audience. Its one of the reasons I dropped the magazines about 12 years ago. I read an issue of the New Era & most of the content focused on valuing each individual based on where they could 'best' someone else. All about how awesome a lone lds kid at his school could run faster than everyone else & garnered ribbons, etc. Then it went through each of his siblings & what they could best everyone at.... tying their value & virtue only to how they could shine for honors and represent the church. That was the last issue I allowed in my house & it went the way of the trash very quickly.

I don't charge for what I do because I choose to. I am no more virtuous than Johnny or anybody I've ever paid to sit with me for an hour or 2 hours while we work together to find the core of an issue. And despite what we've been taught, its not about the devils & spirits. They are nothing more than opportunists. If someone breaks into your house because they could get through the barriers, its really a reflection of insufficient barriers & boundaries, its not that you've got to lock up all the burglars. It's the barriers that allowed them in. Its not the clean mind, its the strength & structure of the mind, the temple of God. Lots of people keep their children locked up tight from the world, living away from society, no tv, no outside influence, in the end, they become infiltrated when they are faced with stuff despite their clean hands & minds.

Because the mind & temple that they are was built in a faulty way on dna that allowed things in. If we had the pure & perfect dna that was originally brought into this world, there would be no space where demons & unclean spirits could get in. There would be no multi personalities, fractionated beings... people who deal with split personalities have nothing to do with being possessed or casting out. Entities are just the vultures coming along to eat the carcass. They simply saw the cracks & scooted in.

I'm gonna hibernate again from the forum for a while, it's like talking apples & oranges.

Everyone may have the seed of perfection within them, but some have been so fractured that they need help getting back to that perfection. I've watched for 35 years, I've watched people raised in satanic homes having the assistance of stellar priesthood holders & no improvement. In speaking with Elder Pace of the 70, who had experience in this, I asked him directly for guidance on how to help someone, he told me that despite all his efforts he did not produce improvements. Despite his constant blessings & reaching out to help, the people continued to struggle in the same manner. So since we are 'competing', please share with me your priesthood rank & the success you've produced in completely healing this issue? Elder Pace instructed me to continue my pursuits in energy healing. So if you've had experience & success, I'm not mocking you. Bring it to the board, share it with those who are battling something beyond vicious. I think Elder Pace reached a rank beyond what the ppl on this board have reached if we are taking about lines of authority. Counsel others based on your experience not your perceptions.

Again, I'm not talking about simple matters that need a blessing, some entity cast out & you go on your merry way. For that reason, I find it pointless to continue the discussion. I don't expect to convince the naysayers, I merely expect that people who read this will continue to fight, continue to search & reach & believe that God has answers for them & that there are quite a few out there seeking to resolve these issues & asking for those answers. Don't give up.

Yeah, it's been a few posts out of 10 pages that were worth even reading, much less responding to. Pretty much a pointless ""discussion"", other than to practice debate skills, lol. Didn't even read some of them, at certain points. Too much fear, misguidance, faith in untruth, brainwashing, etc. Just like on other threads where people feel threatened when something threatens their view and understanding of reality.

I'm happy with doing it, and I guess lots of people here are happy not.

[HeberC]

I do a healing modality on horses. The trick is to do as little as possible and cause the body to unblock its own energy… leave out my own energy, as much as possible, by not 'leading with my intent'. Horses like this because humans usually have an agenda or they want to 'run energy' through the horse to heal him. The horse realizes he can trust me when they feel their own energy surge through the blockage several seconds after I touch them. The first time a horse experiences this, he has a look of surprise and he looks at my hands, trying to figure it all out.

Horses are trained to tolerate what humans do to them, and Reiki or some other method will heal them, but they often prefer their own energy because it feels less invasive to them. That said, there is energy everywhere and in everything and compassion and love themselves have miraculous healing power or energy. That energy I don't try to stop and the horses don't mind it.

There have been three cases where horses drew upon my energy because they knew it could heal their emotional trauma. The third case was extreme and was the time I started to learn what was happening. It wasn't humans but horses who taught me this.

I'm not interested in debating. I seems strange that some people are afraid of energy when it is everywhere and in everything.

I was totally disabled in 1980. I couldn't buy food or pay rent or hardly move. I gave my last dollar to a chiropractor who didn't do anything for me but keep asking for money that I didn't have. I got down to 111 pounds. Then, I had an old Japanese Reiki practitioner fix me up in one treatment. He said that not all people respond well. Some people prefer to be sick or in pain for whatever reason. That would not be my default position. If I choose pain or sickness, I have to have a good reason for it.