Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

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TrueIntent
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Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by TrueIntent »

Here is another article on LDSLiving. http://www.ldsliving.com/Three-Degrees-of-Glory/s/84771

I have recently began to believe that everyone will be saved, and salvation will be offered for all, and that the millennium (with Satan bound), will enable ALL to have the saving ordinances (including exalting ordinances if desired). HOWEVER, I do not believe I was ever taught this doctrine in the church. But what do ya know....this was just posted on LDS living? Do we, as mormons, actually believe we will all be saved????? "whether or not they belong to the church of not" I have never heard the latter-day church teach this...in fact, I have always heard members claim the opposite (is that culture and not doctrine)?.......This is what this article says, and see my highlights below.
Why the 3 Degrees of Glory Sparked So Much Controversy for Early Members


Whether you’re a history buff or simply curious, you have probably collected a decent store of knowledge about important events in Church history. But no matter how well you thought you knew these stories, there are a surprising number of fascinating facts that you might have overlooked. Here is an interesting story about the vision of the three degrees of glory.

The Prophet Joseph Smith immediately embraced the teachings of the vision recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 76. Unfortunately, other Church members grappled with the universalist nature of the vision and its generous terms of salvation for all but the most hardened of sinners. Brigham Young recalled, “Some apostatized because God was not going to send to everlasting punishment heathens and infants, but had a place of salvation, in due time, for all and would bless the honest and virtuous and truthful whether they belonged to any church or not. It was a new doctrine to this generation, and many stumbled at it.”


Brigham Young’s younger brother Joseph Young was troubled: “When I came to read the visions of the different glories of the eternal world, and of the sufferings of the wicked, I could not believe it at first. . . . Why the Lord was going to save everybody!”



Orson Pratt and John Murdock both recorded that a member of the Church declared the revelation was from Satan and “believed it no more than he believed the devil was crucified.” The man exclaimed “he would not have the vision taught in the church for $1,000.” Elders Pratt and Murdock tried unsuccessfully to help the brother understand the restored doctrine of the eternities.

Joseph Smith acknowledged the theology of this revelation might be overwhelming for new converts who had been raised in the heaven and hell teachings of other Christian faiths. He instructed missionaries in England “to adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit [to do otherwise].”

Lead photo from Getty Images

What You Don't Know About the 100 Most Important Events in Church HistoryFor additional unique insights into well-known and little-known events in Church history, check out What You Don’t Know About the 100 Most Important Events in Church History, available at Deseret Book stores and on deseretbook.com.

Find this and other great stories like "The Write Stuff" and "Reunited After 62 Years" in the March/April 2017 issue of LDS Living.

brianj
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by brianj »

We will all be saved from death. No matter how wicked you are, and regardless of if ordinances are ever done on your behalf or accepted, you will be resurrected. Many people believe this means we're all saved.

Almost all of us will be saved in a kingdom of glory. People like to say someone like Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, or Joseph Stalin will go to hell but I don't believe they have ever been placed into a position where they could commit an unpardonable sin so outer darkness is off the table for them. They don't even have to repent to make it to the telestial kingdom - see D&C 19:34-36.

Therefore, your friendly neighborhood preacher is preaching truth. We all will be saved. The only lie is that he's teaching that the best we can hope for is a Telestial or a Terrestrial eternity. Of course nobody makes it into the Celestial Kingdom without putting a whole lot of effort into becoming worthy through the Atonement.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by TrueIntent »

brianj wrote: March 27th, 2017, 7:32 pm We will all be saved from death. No matter how wicked you are, and regardless of if ordinances are ever done on your behalf or accepted, you will be resurrected. Many people believe this means we're all saved. my comment in red:The article clearly says they were all saved.

Almost all of us will be saved in a kingdom of glory. People like to say someone like Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, or Joseph Stalin will go to hell but I don't believe they have ever been placed into a position where they could commit an unpardonable sin so outer darkness is off the table for them. They don't even have to repent to make it to the telestial kingdom - see D&C 19:34-36.

Therefore, your friendly neighborhood preacher is preaching truth. We all will be saved. The only lie is that he's teaching that the best we can hope for is a Telestial or a Terrestrial eternity. Of course nobody makes it into the Celestial Kingdom without putting a whole lot of effort into becoming worthy through the Atonement.

I disagree...to be saved means to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, and to be baptized(by water and fire) to receive the Holy Ghost. Now that I'm thinking about it. The temple ceremony says, "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ....btw....we could not know good without evil...this had to occur...many people who are evil were a product of bad parenting, or circumstances out of their control. A black man born in the ghetto statistically doesn't have a whole lot of hope....this life gives us all experience. I don't condone wickedness, but hitler and Stalin give us perspective. We have something to just goodness and wickedness against. It doesn't make sense to me that everyone wouldn't eventually have a fair shake seeing that we all don't exactly get a fair shake here. Think about it, in the Gospel of Thomas, Christ was called the child of a whore.....he was given labels because if his life experience...He was Jesus and he overcame, but someone else might have to utilize a lot of Grace to to the same thing.

In fact, what if those people who play wicked role and were ridiculed and persecuted for centuries because of their evil choices which were really a product of their poor circumstances they were raised and born into will actually be redeemed for their suffering. Christ did that for us...who says He won't do it for them. We will turn the hearts of the children to their fathers...just a thought. We are all one big family.

Btw, the celestial kingdom is an exalting ordinance. To be saved gets you to the millennium.....where Satan is bound....so if everyone is saved...then we all get the chance in the millennium to receive exalting ordinances where Satan will be bound. Right? I'm not arguing for cheap grace...I'm arguing for infinite mercy...which is the atonement.

butterfly
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by butterfly »

I feel like I've always been taught at church that salvation was available to anyone who had a good heart and tried to do the right thing- but exaltation was a different story. That was always limited to just LDS members. (However, I disagree on that last point).

What I didn't know was that the church was under a type of the law of moses which had to be fulfilled in order to come under grace and obtain this salvation.
In order to be saved (terrestrial kingdom), you do need to have the change of heart/ baptism of fire. I don't think you can inherit the terrestrial kingdom without it.

I also didn't know that reaching the Celestial kingdom involves making one's calling and election sure. I previously thought that once you were sealed in the temple then all you had to do was basically endure to the end.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by TrueIntent »

butterfly wrote: March 27th, 2017, 9:50 pm I feel like I've always been taught at church that salvation was available to anyone who had a good heart and tried to do the right thing- but exaltation was a different story. That was always limited to just LDS members. (However, I disagree on that last point).

What I didn't know was that the church was under a type of the law of moses which had to be fulfilled in order to come under grace and obtain this salvation.
In order to be saved (terrestrial kingdom), you do need to have the change of heart/ baptism of fire. I don't think you can inherit the terrestrial kingdom without it.

I also didn't know that reaching the Celestial kingdom involves making one's calling and election sure. I previously thought that once you were sealed in the temple then all you had to do was basically endure to the end.
Thanks butterfly. I love the way you explained that. i think all too often we as members believe that the work is done just because we participated in a physical ordinance.....Here is a thought expounding on what you said. So if everyone has the opportunity to be saved, do most members believe they are exalted because they have received the ordinance? And do members believe that people (who are not members) who haven't received the ordinance in an LDS temple have no way of being exalted(unless work is performed for the dead)?

Basically, is the physical ordinance in an LDS temple require in addition to the spiritual becoming of the ordinance, for members and non members to be exalted? Or is the physical kneel-at-the-alter ordinance a technicality?

Also, in the millennium we know that ordinance work will be done until the judgement, does this include temple sealing...because my understanding is that the marriage sealing is required for the celestial kingdoms, but calling and election is the witness in this life you have been exalted....can you also then be exalted in the millennium?

My point being, some of us find peace in knowing we achieved exaltation in this life, others will achieve it in the millennium.

Onsdag
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by Onsdag »

My comments in blue.
TrueIntent wrote: March 27th, 2017, 4:24 pm Here is another article on LDSLiving. http://www.ldsliving.com/Three-Degrees-of-Glory/s/84771

I have recently began to believe that everyone will be saved, and salvation will be offered for all, and that the millennium (with Satan bound), will enable ALL to have the saving ordinances (including exalting ordinances if desired). HOWEVER, I do not believe I was ever taught this doctrine in the church. But what do ya know....this was just posted on LDS living? Do we, as mormons, actually believe we will all be saved????? "whether or not they belong to the church of not" I have never heard the latter-day church teach this...in fact, I have always heard members claim the opposite (is that culture and not doctrine)?

Perhaps some people may believe this. But no, we do not teach this as it is false doctrine and Antichrist because it ignores the gift of agency. That is Satan's plan. Please read and study Jacob 7, Alma chapters 11 and 30, where similar Antichrist teachings were put forth and what the Book of Mormon prophets had to say about it. Some other latter-day scriptures to ponder include: Doctrine and Covenants sections 29 and 88; Articles of Faith #3. Please excuse me for not posting more or elaborating at this time as I am posting this from my phone.

.......This is what this article says, and see my highlights below.
Why the 3 Degrees of Glory Sparked So Much Controversy for Early Members


Whether you’re a history buff or simply curious, you have probably collected a decent store of knowledge about important events in Church history. But no matter how well you thought you knew these stories, there are a surprising number of fascinating facts that you might have overlooked. Here is an interesting story about the vision of the three degrees of glory.

The Prophet Joseph Smith immediately embraced the teachings of the vision recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 76. Unfortunately, other Church members grappled with the universalist nature of the vision and its generous terms of salvation for all but the most hardened of sinners. Brigham Young recalled, “Some apostatized because God was not going to send to everlasting punishment heathens and infants, but had a place of salvation, in due time, for all and would bless the honest and virtuous and truthful whether they belonged to any church or not. It was a new doctrine to this generation, and many stumbled at it.”


Brigham Young’s younger brother Joseph Young was troubled: “When I came to read the visions of the different glories of the eternal world, and of the sufferings of the wicked, I could not believe it at first. . . . Why the Lord was going to save everybody!”



Orson Pratt and John Murdock both recorded that a member of the Church declared the revelation was from Satan and “believed it no more than he believed the devil was crucified.” The man exclaimed “he would not have the vision taught in the church for $1,000.” Elders Pratt and Murdock tried unsuccessfully to help the brother understand the restored doctrine of the eternities.

Joseph Smith acknowledged the theology of this revelation might be overwhelming for new converts who had been raised in the heaven and hell teachings of other Christian faiths. He instructed missionaries in England “to adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit [to do otherwise].”

Lead photo from Getty Images

What You Don't Know About the 100 Most Important Events in Church HistoryFor additional unique insights into well-known and little-known events in Church history, check out What You Don’t Know About the 100 Most Important Events in Church History, available at Deseret Book stores and on deseretbook.com.

Find this and other great stories like "The Write Stuff" and "Reunited After 62 Years" in the March/April 2017 issue of LDS Living.
You seem to have missed one key phrase in the above article. I highlighted it in blue and underlined it for you.

Edit: I should clarify and add that the Plan of Salvation is extended to and made available to everyone, but sadly not everyone will accept the terms of that Plan and will rebel against it, just as we witnessed happen in the pre-mortal realms...

"For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift."

butterfly
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by butterfly »

TrueIntent wrote: March 27th, 2017, 10:01 pm
Thanks butterfly. I love the way you explained that. i think all too often we as members believe that the work is done just because we participated in a physical ordinance.....Here is a thought expounding on what you said. So if everyone has the opportunity to be saved, do most members believe they are exalted because they have received the ordinance? And do members believe that people (who are not members) who haven't received the ordinance in an LDS temple have no way of being exalted(unless work is performed for the dead)?


Yes, I think this is accepted doctrine- that the only way to progress through the kingdoms is by having the physical ordinances administered by a recognized LDS priesthood holder.

But this verse to me says otherwise. Remember when Joseph Smith saw his deceased brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom, before Alvin had been sealed to a spouse or had other proxy ordinances done:

6 And (I) marveled how it was that he (Alvin) had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
Basically, is the physical ordinance in an LDS temple require in addition to the spiritual becoming of the ordinance, for members and non members to be exalted? Or is the physical kneel-at-the-alter ordinance a technicality?
The physical ordinances are important for those who are under the law still. Since the church is under the law, then the members are supposed to keep the physical ordinances until they have the spirit to be their guide. Similar to this:

15 Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.

The Nephites were waiting for Jesus to come; similarly, church members today wait for their baptism of fire. Then they can move beyond the law but until then:

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

However, nonmembers are not under this same law like LDS are. Nonmembers still need the spiritual ordinances, but not neccessarily the physical ones .

Also, in the millennium we know that ordinance work will be done until the judgement, does this include temple sealing...because my understanding is that the marriage sealing is required for the celestial kingdoms, but calling and election is the witness in this life you have been exalted....can you also then be exalted in the millennium?

My point being, some of us find peace in knowing we achieved exaltation in this life, others will achieve it in the millennium.

It is my understanding that you have until the end of the millennium to make your calling and election sure. After the millennium is the final judgment. If you have your C&E by then, you are promised all that God has to give. To me, this includes being sealed to a spouse. If I have a 10 yr old who receives her C&E the day before judgment day, then she is not going to be sealed to her spouse at that time. But because she has her C&E, she can know that even after judgment she can still be sealed.

What makes you think the marriage sealing is required for the celestial kingdom?

butterfly
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by butterfly »

*when praying about baptism for your children, it's important to consider if God wants them under the law. If you can teach your children to recognize and follow the spirit, then they may not be in need of being placed under the law.

This is exactly what happened in the new testament when the gentiles started receiving the Holy Ghost. The Jews wanted to place the gentiles under the law, but Peter saw it as detrimental:

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

eddie
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by eddie »

Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. [3 Nephi 27:19–22]

Ezra
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by Ezra »

If you look at d&c 121 33-43 vs 38 states that if you are not chosen you fight against god.

So out of the many lds called few are chosen. Those not chosen are not Gods people since they fight against him.

We can only serve one master right. So we are either his or not his. And being a member of the lds church doesn't even mean that the majority are his. Since only a few are chosen. I think chosen means celestial kingdom worthy.

I feel that no matter what religion people belong to. If they themselfs live a life that is good and righteous. In gods eyes. Then they are his.

I have met many really good godly people who are not lds. Some don't really claim any religion as their own. They just believe in a higher power and live really good wholesome lives.


I think that this quote puts in good perspective.


WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY WITH THOSE WHO WILL ALLOW US NO MORE FREEDOM THAN WE ARE WILLING TO ALLOW THEM.
Over and over again, the scriptures emphasize that we will be judged according to our treatment of our fellowmen. If we are charitable, we will be placed with the sheep in the Lord’s kingdom rather than with the goats in outer darkness. (Matt. 25:31—46) If we forgive, we may be forgiven. (Matt.6:12) If we are just, we may rise in the resurrection of the Just: and dwell with them. (D&C Sec. 76) If we refrain from exercising compulsion unrighteously, our dominion in the hereafter may be everlasting and flow unto us forever and ever without compulsory means. (D&C Sec. 121) In short, we can expect to be treated in the next life as we treat others here.
The exact implementation of this law of the harvest will occur at the end of this life, when we will be divided into groups and each will be consigned to spend eternity with those with whom he is most like. An unjust person will dwell with those who will treat him unjustly; a kind, forgiving person will enjoy the companionship of kind and forgiving associates, etc. But the fact which is important to our discussion here is that each person will be with that group who will allow him to exercise no more freedom than he is willing to allow them.
If, during this life, we have been persuaded to believe that the force of government, or any other agency, should be used to deny our fellowmen the stewardship which God has given them over their families, their property, and their private affairs, we can be very certain that we will be placed with a group in the hereafter who will hold similar views. With such an attitude, we cannot expect to have stewardship or dominions of our own because we do not believe in them for others and neither will those with whom we will dwell believe in them for us. The poetic justice of God decrees that if we deprive our fellow of those unalienable rights which, according to the
Declaration of Independence, they have been endowed by their Creator, we will lose our free agency to the same extent.
H. Verlin. Anderson, “The Great and Abominable Church of the
Devil”


I think that come judgement day we will separate ourself out. We will go with those people who we feel most comfortable with. Same ideals. That means the same as the above quote in my mind. People who feel comfortable with controlling others will go with those who agree with those ideals. And they will either punish or help each other depending on their beliefs.

Meanwhile I see our savior pleading For them to change and stay with him.. those who already are like our savior will go with him.

Those who are not like him won't feel comfortable in his presence and the presence of others who are like him. So they will leave. While he pleads for them to change and stay.

I think that if a person is willing to stay. He will be allowed to. But as we know no unclean person will be able to be in gods presence. I believe that's because they would be very uncomfortable being around someone so good when they themselfs are not and and they know it. So if they are willing to stay they will have to endure that very uncomfortable feelings tell they fully change. And become comfortable there. Pain or uncomfortableness prompt growth. Comfort doesn't.
being comfortable in gods presence means your perfect like him. So you don't need it at that point.
Hopefully that makes sense. To whom ever is reading this

scottja
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by scottja »

Is "LDSLiving" a Church sponsored site?

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inho
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by inho »

I think the question here really is how one defines the word 'saved'. I think it is quite common in the church to say that everyone in any of the kingdoms of glory is saved. Celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdom are all kingdoms of glory.

Dallin H. Oaks has pointed out that "As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings."
First, all mortals have been saved from the permanence of death through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
...
As to salvation from sin and the consequences of sin, our answer to the question of whether or not we have been saved is “yes, but with conditions.”
...
Believers who have had this required rebirth at the hands of those having authority have already been saved from sin conditionally, but they will not be saved finally until they have completed their mortal probation with the required continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.
...
A fourth meaning of being saved is to be saved from the darkness of ignorance of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, and of the purpose of life, and of the destiny of men and women.
...
For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come.
...
Finally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life.
I think the fifth point is the most relevant one in light of the article in LDS Living. Oaks says this:
For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come (see 1 Cor. 15:40–42). Just as the Resurrection is universal, we affirm that every person who ever lived upon the face of the earth—except for a very few—is assured of salvation in this sense. As we read in modern revelation:

“And this is the gospel, the glad tidings …

“That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

“Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” (D&C 76:40–43; emphasis added).

The prophet Brigham Young taught that doctrine when he declared that “every person who does not sin away the day of grace, and become an angel to the Devil, will be brought forth to inherit a kingdom of glory” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 288). This meaning of saved ennobles the whole human race through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In this sense of the word, all should answer: “Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!”
I agree with everything Oaks says here, but I wonder about his choice of words. He says that being delivered from the second death means getting into any of the kingdoms of glory. Words can be used in many ways, as his list of definitions for saved shows. I have used to define second death as separation from God. Being delivered from second death would then mean living in the presence of Heavenly Father again. This is possible only in the celestial kingdom (D&C 76:62,77).

Onsdag
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by Onsdag »

inho wrote: March 28th, 2017, 1:16 am I think the question here really is how one defines the word 'saved'. I think it is quite common in the church to say that everyone in any of the kingdoms of glory is saved. Celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdom are all kingdoms of glory.

Dallin H. Oaks has pointed out that "As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings."
First, all mortals have been saved from the permanence of death through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
...
As to salvation from sin and the consequences of sin, our answer to the question of whether or not we have been saved is “yes, but with conditions.”
...
Believers who have had this required rebirth at the hands of those having authority have already been saved from sin conditionally, but they will not be saved finally until they have completed their mortal probation with the required continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.
...
A fourth meaning of being saved is to be saved from the darkness of ignorance of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, and of the purpose of life, and of the destiny of men and women.
...
For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come.
...
Finally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life.
I think the fifth point is the most relevant one in light of the article in LDS Living. Oaks says this:
For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come (see 1 Cor. 15:40–42). Just as the Resurrection is universal, we affirm that every person who ever lived upon the face of the earth—except for a very few—is assured of salvation in this sense. As we read in modern revelation:

“And this is the gospel, the glad tidings …

“That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

“Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” (D&C 76:40–43; emphasis added).

The prophet Brigham Young taught that doctrine when he declared that “every person who does not sin away the day of grace, and become an angel to the Devil, will be brought forth to inherit a kingdom of glory” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 288). This meaning of saved ennobles the whole human race through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In this sense of the word, all should answer: “Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!”
I agree with everything Oaks says here, but I wonder about his choice of words. He says that being delivered from the second death means getting into any of the kingdoms of glory. Words can be used in many ways, as his list of definitions for saved shows. I have used to define second death as separation from God. Being delivered from second death would then mean living in the presence of Heavenly Father again. This is possible only in the celestial kingdom (D&C 76:62,77).
You're both right. All of the kingdoms of glory are part of God's kingdom. Those who enter the celestial kingdom are presided over and in the presence of God the Father (D&C 76:62,92). Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom are presided over and in the presence of God the Son (D&C 76:77). Those who enter the telestial kingdom are presided over and in the presence of God the Holy Ghost (D&C 76:86). In each instance these people are 'saved' from the devil, receive an inheritance in one of God's kingdoms and are allowed into the presence of a member of the godhead, as much as they were willing to accept but no more. This fulfills your criteria about the second death and being separated from God, since each of these kingdoms does enjoy the presence of God to one degree or another. On the other hand, those who completely and utterly reject God and become sons of perdition are not worthy of a kingdom of God and therefore they are not 'saved' from the devil and he becomes their god and rules over them in his own kingdom - outer darkness (D&C 76:31-38). Again, study D&C 88 as well for a rundown of all these things.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by TrueIntent »

Onsdag wrote: March 27th, 2017, 10:45 pm My comments in blue.
TrueIntent wrote: March 27th, 2017, 4:24 pm Here is another article on LDSLiving. http://www.ldsliving.com/Three-Degrees-of-Glory/s/84771

I have recently began to believe that everyone will be saved, and salvation will be offered for all, and that the millennium (with Satan bound), will enable ALL to have the saving ordinances (including exalting ordinances if desired). HOWEVER, I do not believe I was ever taught this doctrine in the church. But what do ya know....this was just posted on LDS living? Do we, as mormons, actually believe we will all be saved????? "whether or not they belong to the church of not" I have never heard the latter-day church teach this...in fact, I have always heard members claim the opposite (is that culture and not doctrine)?

Perhaps some people may believe this. But no, we do not teach this as it is false doctrine and Antichrist because it ignores the gift of agency. That is Satan's plan. Please read and study Jacob 7, Alma chapters 11 and 30, where similar Antichrist teachings were put forth and what the Book of Mormon prophets had to say about it. Some other latter-day scriptures to ponder include: Doctrine and Covenants sections 29 and 88; Articles of Faith #3. Please excuse me for not posting more or elaborating at this time as I am posting this from my phone.

.......This is what this article says, and see my highlights below.
Why the 3 Degrees of Glory Sparked So Much Controversy for Early Members


Whether you’re a history buff or simply curious, you have probably collected a decent store of knowledge about important events in Church history. But no matter how well you thought you knew these stories, there are a surprising number of fascinating facts that you might have overlooked. Here is an interesting story about the vision of the three degrees of glory.

The Prophet Joseph Smith immediately embraced the teachings of the vision recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 76. Unfortunately, other Church members grappled with the universalist nature of the vision and its generous terms of salvation for all but the most hardened of sinners. Brigham Young recalled, “Some apostatized because God was not going to send to everlasting punishment heathens and infants, but had a place of salvation, in due time, for all and would bless the honest and virtuous and truthful whether they belonged to any church or not. It was a new doctrine to this generation, and many stumbled at it.”


Brigham Young’s younger brother Joseph Young was troubled: “When I came to read the visions of the different glories of the eternal world, and of the sufferings of the wicked, I could not believe it at first. . . . Why the Lord was going to save everybody!”



Orson Pratt and John Murdock both recorded that a member of the Church declared the revelation was from Satan and “believed it no more than he believed the devil was crucified.” The man exclaimed “he would not have the vision taught in the church for $1,000.” Elders Pratt and Murdock tried unsuccessfully to help the brother understand the restored doctrine of the eternities.

Joseph Smith acknowledged the theology of this revelation might be overwhelming for new converts who had been raised in the heaven and hell teachings of other Christian faiths. He instructed missionaries in England “to adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit [to do otherwise].”

Lead photo from Getty Images

What You Don't Know About the 100 Most Important Events in Church HistoryFor additional unique insights into well-known and little-known events in Church history, check out What You Don’t Know About the 100 Most Important Events in Church History, available at Deseret Book stores and on deseretbook.com.

Find this and other great stories like "The Write Stuff" and "Reunited After 62 Years" in the March/April 2017 issue of LDS Living.
You seem to have missed one key phrase in the above article. I highlighted it in blue and underlined it for you.

Edit: I should clarify and add that the Plan of Salvation is extended to and made available to everyone, but sadly not everyone will accept the terms of that Plan and will rebel against it, just as we witnessed happen in the pre-mortal realms...

"For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift."
I understand what you are saying, but my point is the millennium appears to rectify this according to this teaching. It clearly states all will be saved...we will of course have to choose that...but i think when satan is bound (for a season during the millennium), that is where a receiver is able to clearly discern the good gift.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by TrueIntent »

butterfly wrote: March 27th, 2017, 10:59 pm
TrueIntent wrote: March 27th, 2017, 10:01 pm
Thanks butterfly. I love the way you explained that. i think all too often we as members believe that the work is done just because we participated in a physical ordinance.....Here is a thought expounding on what you said. So if everyone has the opportunity to be saved, do most members believe they are exalted because they have received the ordinance? And do members believe that people (who are not members) who haven't received the ordinance in an LDS temple have no way of being exalted(unless work is performed for the dead)?


Yes, I think this is accepted doctrine- that the only way to progress through the kingdoms is by having the physical ordinances administered by a recognized LDS priesthood holder.

But this verse to me says otherwise. Remember when Joseph Smith saw his deceased brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom, before Alvin had been sealed to a spouse or had other proxy ordinances done:

6 And (I) marveled how it was that he (Alvin) had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
Basically, is the physical ordinance in an LDS temple require in addition to the spiritual becoming of the ordinance, for members and non members to be exalted? Or is the physical kneel-at-the-alter ordinance a technicality?
The physical ordinances are important for those who are under the law still. Since the church is under the law, then the members are supposed to keep the physical ordinances until they have the spirit to be their guide. Similar to this:

15 Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.

The Nephites were waiting for Jesus to come; similarly, church members today wait for their baptism of fire. Then they can move beyond the law but until then:

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

However, nonmembers are not under this same law like LDS are. Nonmembers still need the spiritual ordinances, but not neccessarily the physical ones .

Also, in the millennium we know that ordinance work will be done until the judgement, does this include temple sealing...because my understanding is that the marriage sealing is required for the celestial kingdoms, but calling and election is the witness in this life you have been exalted....can you also then be exalted in the millennium?

My point being, some of us find peace in knowing we achieved exaltation in this life, others will achieve it in the millennium.

It is my understanding that you have until the end of the millennium to make your calling and election sure. After the millennium is the final judgment. If you have your C&E by then, you are promised all that God has to give. To me, this includes being sealed to a spouse. If I have a 10 yr old who receives her C&E the day before judgment day, then she is not going to be sealed to her spouse at that time. But because she has her C&E, she can know that even after judgment she can still be sealed.

What makes you think the marriage sealing is required for the celestial kingdom?
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
This clears up a lot for me....basically, you do not have to have a knowledge of the gospel ordinances to be saved in the celestial kingdom, and verse 8 is the clincher...."also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it" will be heirs of that kingdom. Knowledge is not required. Just being the type of person who would have received it in the past and future.
The physical ordinances are important for those who are under the law still. Since the church is under the law, then the members are supposed to keep the physical ordinances until they have the spirit to be their guide. Similar to this:

15 Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.

The Nephites were waiting for Jesus to come; similarly, church members today wait for their baptism of fire. Then they can move beyond the law but until then:

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

However, nonmembers are not under this same law like LDS are. Nonmembers still need the spiritual ordinances, but not neccessarily the physical ones .
First question, why in your opinion are LDS members under the law of moses, but not the gentiles(in other words, why is it necessary for LDS to do it this way, and not a gentile? Don't we try to baptize gentiles and bring them into the fold and adopt them under the law of moses? Why do they (gentiles) not need the physical ordinances, but the latter day church teaches converts that they do? What is the rationale for all the temple work we do for the dead, as it seems to imply physical ordinances are required? Im not asking because I disagree with you, but because I have been unable to justify to other members that the physical ordinances are not necessary--only the spiritual. Is there scriptural information or historical teachings that you have found that indicate the physical ordinances are also not necessary for the dead or the gentile who converts to mormonism?

Also, I have received what I consider my baptism of fire...as I have made choices to break with culture, I have been judged....as a church, it is obvious to me we are under a "law of moses" type commandments, however, members seem to be completely unaware of this (even though my bishop and stake president believe the same, they said membership is too cultural to comprehend it..crazy interaction huh). But I have found there are members, including leadership who believe this (Faust even gave a talk on the law of moses vs. law of the spirit), and yet, members who live under the spirit tend to be judged by those who are following an "exactness" of the law of moses, or the exactness of the cultural standards. If scripture tells us to live in spirit after receiving our baptism of fire....are you aware that the church teaches this also? Is it really that members can't get it because we are too culturally engrained? ...I feel like our cultures says, "Don't walk in spirit, follow the leaders" Isn't this law of moses supposed to get us to that point where we walk in spirit, and if this is truly the case, why is this principle not openly taught. Why do most LDS members believe the law we are under is the end-all-be-all.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by TrueIntent »

Ezra wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:31 am If you look at d&c 121 33-43 vs 38 states that if you are not chosen you fight against god.

So out of the many lds called few are chosen. Those not chosen are not Gods people since they fight against him.

We can only serve one master right. So we are either his or not his. And being a member of the lds church doesn't even mean that the majority are his. Since only a few are chosen. I think chosen means celestial kingdom worthy.

I feel that no matter what religion people belong to. If they themselfs live a life that is good and righteous. In gods eyes. Then they are his.

I have met many really good godly people who are not lds. Some don't really claim any religion as their own. They just believe in a higher power and live really good wholesome lives.


I think that this quote puts in good perspective.


WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY WITH THOSE WHO WILL ALLOW US NO MORE FREEDOM THAN WE ARE WILLING TO ALLOW THEM.
Over and over again, the scriptures emphasize that we will be judged according to our treatment of our fellowmen. If we are charitable, we will be placed with the sheep in the Lord’s kingdom rather than with the goats in outer darkness. (Matt. 25:31—46) If we forgive, we may be forgiven. (Matt.6:12) If we are just, we may rise in the resurrection of the Just: and dwell with them. (D&C Sec. 76) If we refrain from exercising compulsion unrighteously, our dominion in the hereafter may be everlasting and flow unto us forever and ever without compulsory means. (D&C Sec. 121) In short, we can expect to be treated in the next life as we treat others here.
The exact implementation of this law of the harvest will occur at the end of this life, when we will be divided into groups and each will be consigned to spend eternity with those with whom he is most like. An unjust person will dwell with those who will treat him unjustly; a kind, forgiving person will enjoy the companionship of kind and forgiving associates, etc. But the fact which is important to our discussion here is that each person will be with that group who will allow him to exercise no more freedom than he is willing to allow them.
If, during this life, we have been persuaded to believe that the force of government, or any other agency, should be used to deny our fellowmen the stewardship which God has given them over their families, their property, and their private affairs, we can be very certain that we will be placed with a group in the hereafter who will hold similar views. With such an attitude, we cannot expect to have stewardship or dominions of our own because we do not believe in them for others and neither will those with whom we will dwell believe in them for us. The poetic justice of God decrees that if we deprive our fellow of those unalienable rights which, according to the
Declaration of Independence, they have been endowed by their Creator, we will lose our free agency to the same extent.
H. Verlin. Anderson, “The Great and Abominable Church of the
Devil”


I think that come judgement day we will separate ourself out. We will go with those people who we feel most comfortable with. Same ideals. That means the same as the above quote in my mind. People who feel comfortable with controlling others will go with those who agree with those ideals. And they will either punish or help each other depending on their beliefs.

Meanwhile I see our savior pleading For them to change and stay with him.. those who already are like our savior will go with him.

Those who are not like him won't feel comfortable in his presence and the presence of others who are like him. So they will leave. While he pleads for them to change and stay.

I think that if a person is willing to stay. He will be allowed to. But as we know no unclean person will be able to be in gods presence. I believe that's because they would be very uncomfortable being around someone so good when they themselfs are not and and they know it. So if they are willing to stay they will have to endure that very uncomfortable feelings tell they fully change. And become comfortable there. Pain or uncomfortableness prompt growth. Comfort doesn't.
being comfortable in gods presence means your perfect like him. So you don't need it at that point.
Hopefully that makes sense. To whom ever is reading this
I agree with what you are saying. Here is a question...Even though we frequently teach the phrase, few are called, many are chosen....Would you agree that most of the membership believe they are chosen....arent we taught that we are a chosen people? A peculiar people? What actually makes one chosen, and eventually, in the millennium, can we all be chosen? If Satan is bound, what prevents one for refining and perfecting themselves in the millennium over time so that they can stand in God's presence.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by TrueIntent »

scottja wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:58 am Is "LDSLiving" a Church sponsored site?
It is owned by the church, and you will find that when the church needs to push a message to the members culturally, they will do it through a forum like LDSliving instead of LDS.org. There are many cultural teachings and ideas pushed on LDSliving. Deseret News is also owned by the church, as well as many other media corporations. If it goes out on LDSliving, you can rest assure the church is pushing and agenda, idea, or even correcting misconceptions, or possibly trying to altering negative views into positive spins. The problem is that there are a lot of articles that are pushed as cultural ideas that mormons end up adopting. I see more LDSliving shared on social media by members than any other media avenue the church owns. If the church never made any mistakes this would be awesome...but because this site is very culture based....members tend to share these articles as if it reflects or should reflect all of mormonism...its a double edge sword--or can be.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by TrueIntent »

Onsdag wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:46 am
inho wrote: March 28th, 2017, 1:16 am I think the question here really is how one defines the word 'saved'. I think it is quite common in the church to say that everyone in any of the kingdoms of glory is saved. Celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdom are all kingdoms of glory.

Dallin H. Oaks has pointed out that "As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings."
First, all mortals have been saved from the permanence of death through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
...
As to salvation from sin and the consequences of sin, our answer to the question of whether or not we have been saved is “yes, but with conditions.”
...
Believers who have had this required rebirth at the hands of those having authority have already been saved from sin conditionally, but they will not be saved finally until they have completed their mortal probation with the required continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.
...
A fourth meaning of being saved is to be saved from the darkness of ignorance of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, and of the purpose of life, and of the destiny of men and women.
...
For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come.
...
Finally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life.
I think the fifth point is the most relevant one in light of the article in LDS Living. Oaks says this:
For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come (see 1 Cor. 15:40–42). Just as the Resurrection is universal, we affirm that every person who ever lived upon the face of the earth—except for a very few—is assured of salvation in this sense. As we read in modern revelation:

“And this is the gospel, the glad tidings …

“That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

“Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” (D&C 76:40–43; emphasis added).

The prophet Brigham Young taught that doctrine when he declared that “every person who does not sin away the day of grace, and become an angel to the Devil, will be brought forth to inherit a kingdom of glory” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 288). This meaning of saved ennobles the whole human race through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In this sense of the word, all should answer: “Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!”
I agree with everything Oaks says here, but I wonder about his choice of words. He says that being delivered from the second death means getting into any of the kingdoms of glory. Words can be used in many ways, as his list of definitions for saved shows. I have used to define second death as separation from God. Being delivered from second death would then mean living in the presence of Heavenly Father again. This is possible only in the celestial kingdom (D&C 76:62,77).
You're both right. All of the kingdoms of glory are part of God's kingdom. Those who enter the celestial kingdom are presided over and in the presence of God the Father (D&C 76:62,92). Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom are presided over and in the presence of God the Son (D&C 76:77). Those who enter the telestial kingdom are presided over and in the presence of God the Holy Ghost (D&C 76:86). In each instance these people are 'saved' from the devil, receive an inheritance in one of God's kingdoms and are allowed into the presence of a member of the godhead, as much as they were willing to accept but no more. This fulfills your criteria about the second death and being separated from God, since each of these kingdoms does enjoy the presence of God to one degree or another. On the other hand, those who completely and utterly reject God and become sons of perdition are not worthy of a kingdom of God and therefore they are not 'saved' from the devil and he becomes their god and rules over them in his own kingdom - outer darkness (D&C 76:31-38). Again, study D&C 88 as well for a rundown of all these things.

Those are great quotes, although I also think that Oaks is an attorney and he likes to slice and dice his words in a million different ways. While all those things are true, when someone asks "am I saved, or will I be saved, or will we all be saved....They really are asking the simple question, am I saved? They aren't asking for all the different meanings we can possibly find for being saved. While all those things are true, in Christianity, and scripture, being saved really boils doing to repentance, baptism(by fire, receiving holy ghost), accepting christ as your savior...and if I am not mistaken, when people ask, "am I saved?" they aren't referring to just the resurrection. I think in general, the original post to me indicates they are defining "saved" in the same basic way other christians did. I wonder, if Oakes was asked to explain what the authors meant when they said, "all will be saved"....if he would still slice and dice the definition of saved, or would it be a much simpler answer.

Ezra
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by Ezra »

TrueIntent wrote: March 28th, 2017, 2:23 pm
Ezra wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:31 am If you look at d&c 121 33-43 vs 38 states that if you are not chosen you fight against god.

So out of the many lds called few are chosen. Those not chosen are not Gods people since they fight against him.

We can only serve one master right. So we are either his or not his. And being a member of the lds church doesn't even mean that the majority are his. Since only a few are chosen. I think chosen means celestial kingdom worthy.

I feel that no matter what religion people belong to. If they themselfs live a life that is good and righteous. In gods eyes. Then they are his.

I have met many really good godly people who are not lds. Some don't really claim any religion as their own. They just believe in a higher power and live really good wholesome lives.


I think that this quote puts in good perspective.


WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY WITH THOSE WHO WILL ALLOW US NO MORE FREEDOM THAN WE ARE WILLING TO ALLOW THEM.
Over and over again, the scriptures emphasize that we will be judged according to our treatment of our fellowmen. If we are charitable, we will be placed with the sheep in the Lord’s kingdom rather than with the goats in outer darkness. (Matt. 25:31—46) If we forgive, we may be forgiven. (Matt.6:12) If we are just, we may rise in the resurrection of the Just: and dwell with them. (D&C Sec. 76) If we refrain from exercising compulsion unrighteously, our dominion in the hereafter may be everlasting and flow unto us forever and ever without compulsory means. (D&C Sec. 121) In short, we can expect to be treated in the next life as we treat others here.
The exact implementation of this law of the harvest will occur at the end of this life, when we will be divided into groups and each will be consigned to spend eternity with those with whom he is most like. An unjust person will dwell with those who will treat him unjustly; a kind, forgiving person will enjoy the companionship of kind and forgiving associates, etc. But the fact which is important to our discussion here is that each person will be with that group who will allow him to exercise no more freedom than he is willing to allow them.
If, during this life, we have been persuaded to believe that the force of government, or any other agency, should be used to deny our fellowmen the stewardship which God has given them over their families, their property, and their private affairs, we can be very certain that we will be placed with a group in the hereafter who will hold similar views. With such an attitude, we cannot expect to have stewardship or dominions of our own because we do not believe in them for others and neither will those with whom we will dwell believe in them for us. The poetic justice of God decrees that if we deprive our fellow of those unalienable rights which, according to the
Declaration of Independence, they have been endowed by their Creator, we will lose our free agency to the same extent.
H. Verlin. Anderson, “The Great and Abominable Church of the
Devil”


I think that come judgement day we will separate ourself out. We will go with those people who we feel most comfortable with. Same ideals. That means the same as the above quote in my mind. People who feel comfortable with controlling others will go with those who agree with those ideals. And they will either punish or help each other depending on their beliefs.

Meanwhile I see our savior pleading For them to change and stay with him.. those who already are like our savior will go with him.

Those who are not like him won't feel comfortable in his presence and the presence of others who are like him. So they will leave. While he pleads for them to change and stay.

I think that if a person is willing to stay. He will be allowed to. But as we know no unclean person will be able to be in gods presence. I believe that's because they would be very uncomfortable being around someone so good when they themselfs are not and and they know it. So if they are willing to stay they will have to endure that very uncomfortable feelings tell they fully change. And become comfortable there. Pain or uncomfortableness prompt growth. Comfort doesn't.
being comfortable in gods presence means your perfect like him. So you don't need it at that point.
Hopefully that makes sense. To whom ever is reading this
I agree with what you are saying. Here is a question...Even though we frequently teach the phrase, few are called, many are chosen....Would you agree that most of the membership believe they are chosen....arent we taught that we are a chosen people? A peculiar people? What actually makes one chosen, and eventually, in the millennium, can we all be chosen? If Satan is bound, what prevents one for refining and perfecting themselves in the millennium over time so that they can stand in God's presence.
Yes I think that's part of the problem that most lds think they are chosen. Which puts them in a place of pride which is there downfall.

I do believe we all have a chance to repent in heaven.

With most not being chosen. While they believe they are. And that belief being deeply developed. I think it will be hard for them to accept that they were not gods chosen. I could see many saying. "Then you are not my god" and going on with their ways.

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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by brianj »

TrueIntent wrote: March 27th, 2017, 9:35 pm I disagree...to be saved means to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, and to be baptized(by water and fire) to receive the Holy Ghost. Now that I'm thinking about it. The temple ceremony says,
It seems you don't disagree with me; you disagree with the definition of saved that I wrote. You won't be able to convince me that protestant ministers are not teaching what I have heard them teach. Go to almost any protestant church and you will hear the teaching that all you have to do is to accept Jesus as your savior and you'll be saved in heaven where you'll happily praise and serve God for eternity. They really are teaching a telestial or terrestrial concept of heaven, and they are accurate in the limited truth that they are teaching; they just deny the rest of the truth.

I am very uncomfortable quoting temple ordinances outside of a temple so I cut the rest of your comment. But think about this: was there anybody born who would not have qualified for exaltation if they were born as part of the first generation of Nephites after the Savior's visit? Either Heavenly Father is really unfair, something I don't believe, or there is a very merciful way for everybody who doesn't knowingly reject the gospel in this life to repent. When I read words such as Alma teaching that the spirit which possesses us when we die will be the spirit that possesses us in the next life, I remember that he was teaching people who had accepted the gospel, made covenants, and probably had real testimonies.

butterfly
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by butterfly »

TrueIntent wrote: March 28th, 2017, 2:11 pm

First question, why in your opinion are LDS members under the law of moses, but not the gentiles(in other words, why is it necessary for LDS to do it this way, and not a gentile? Don't we try to baptize gentiles and bring them into the fold and adopt them under the law of moses? Why do they (gentiles) not need the physical ordinances, but the latter day church teaches converts that they do? What is the rationale for all the temple work we do for the dead, as it seems to imply physical ordinances are required? Im not asking because I disagree with you, but because I have been unable to justify to other members that the physical ordinances are not necessary--only the spiritual. Is there scriptural information or historical teachings that you have found that indicate the physical ordinances are also not necessary for the dead or the gentile who converts to mormonism?
The church's history is very similar to what happened with Moses and the children of Israel. Moses comes down from the mountain with the higher law, the people are worshiping idols, so God gives them a lower law. It was necessary for their growth, but it was also like a curse.
However, just because the children of Israel are restricted to the Aaronic Prhd doesn't mean that everyone else is. At the same time we see another group of people who are able to have the Melchizedek Prhd. - Jethro, who was a high priest, was also a descendant of Abraham through Abraham's third wife Keturah.
D&C 84:6 says that Moses received the Mel. Prhd through Jethro:

6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro; And Jethro received it under the hand of Caleb;

There are more examples in the scriptures of God putting one group under the law while at the same time giving a higher law to a more prepared group. The gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost while the Jews were still debtors to the law is very applicable.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Once you get put under the law, you have to fulfill it completely. The Lord explains why He put the LDS church under the law:

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

The saints were plagued by unbelief and treated lightly what they had received. So the Lord cursed them, placed them under condemnation and gave them dead works to do like baptism by water and the "checklist" of commandments. This condemnation was not placed upon the gentiles - it was only for the children of Zion.
The way to remove this curse/condemnation is to repent and remember the new covenant from the BOM. Well, what does the BOM teach? The everlasting gospel - receive your baptism of fire and then follow the spirit back to the presence of God.
As members understand this, they can individually remove the condemnation.

I think it's important to be cautious when advising people that physical ordinances are not necessary. They are not necessary if you are led by the spirit. However, for those who have not received their baptism of fire, the physical ordinances are necessary and are part of the teaching program that God has set up for them. It would be incorrect to tell someone under the law that they don't have to follow it anymore. What they need to be taught is how to fulfill the law.


Here is a thread about examples from the scriptures where spiritual ordinances were received without the need for the physical ordinance:
viewtopic.php?t=22493#p281944
Also, I have received what I consider my baptism of fire...as I have made choices to break with culture, I have been judged....as a church, it is obvious to me we are under a "law of moses" type commandments, however, members seem to be completely unaware of this (even though my bishop and stake president believe the same, they said membership is too cultural to comprehend it..crazy interaction huh). But I have found there are members, including leadership who believe this (Faust even gave a talk on the law of moses vs. law of the spirit), and yet, members who live under the spirit tend to be judged by those who are following an "exactness" of the law of moses, or the exactness of the cultural standards. If scripture tells us to live in spirit after receiving our baptism of fire....are you aware that the church teaches this also? Is it really that members can't get it because we are too culturally engrained? ...I feel like our cultures says, "Don't walk in spirit, follow the leaders" Isn't this law of moses supposed to get us to that point where we walk in spirit, and if this is truly the case, why is this principle not openly taught. Why do most LDS members believe the law we are under is the end-all-be-all.
I have found it important to remember that where I am in my progression is what is right for me and me alone. Where other members are is what is right for them. The Holy Ghost will witness to a person that they should still wear their garments 24/7 or that they should follow the prophet or that their teens shouldn't date until they are age 16, etc, if that is what is right for them at that time. Some people should be encouraged to follow the prophet and live the carnal commandments because they could make very poor decisions otherwise.

I have also found that if I am too outspoken about my own progression, not only does it cause people to judge me, but worse than that, I lose the trust of fellow ward members. And once they don't trust you, then they won't consider anything you say, no matter how true it is. Since it is my hope to help others in their progression, I try to keep a lot of my personal experiences to myself and just give as much info as it seems they can accept.

eddie
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by eddie »

Decisions for Eternity
Russell M. Nelson


While we are to emulate our Savior’s kindness and compassion, while we are to value the rights and feelings of all of God’s children, we cannot change His doctrine. It is not ours to change. His doctrine is ours to study, understand, and uphold.

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inho
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by inho »

TrueIntent wrote: March 28th, 2017, 2:38 pm While all those things are true, in Christianity, and scripture, being saved really boils doing to repentance, baptism(by fire, receiving holy ghost), accepting christ as your savior...and if I am not mistaken, when people ask, "am I saved?" they aren't referring to just the resurrection. I think in general, the original post to me indicates they are defining "saved" in the same basic way other christians did.
The original post explained how the members reacted to the doctrine of the three kingdoms of glory in Joseph's days. My opinion is that in that case 'being saved' meant getting in the heaven. Those living in Joseph's days were raised to believe that there is heaven and hell. That there is a clear cut between good people (those being saved) and bad people. But Joseph revealed them that there are levels of heaven and outer darkness (hell) that is limited to very special people. They saw this as (almost) everyone being saved. It wasn't about everyone being resurrected, it was about not having hell were wicked are tormented for eternities.

davedan
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by davedan »

Everyone saved from Hell, yes, except the Sons of Perdition who absolutely refuse it. But not everyone will be exalted.

The most prestigious job in heaven is teaching "mortality prep". If you never learned the 3 lessons of mortality, you may be in heaven, but you will never teach "mortality prep" "worlds without end". There are no mortality do-overs.

The 3 lessons of mortality:
1. Love Heavenly Father and Christ more than Satan.
2. Learn to control the body.
3. Submit to God's priesthood authority.

If you have never learned these 3 lessons, you can't teach them and help other spirits prepare for their mortality.

JohnnyL
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Re: Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

Post by JohnnyL »

brianj wrote: March 27th, 2017, 7:32 pm We will all be saved from death. No matter how wicked you are, and regardless of if ordinances are ever done on your behalf or accepted, you will be resurrected. Many people believe this means we're all saved.

Almost all of us will be saved in a kingdom of glory. People like to say someone like Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, or Joseph Stalin will go to hell but I don't believe they have ever been placed into a position where they could commit an unpardonable sin so outer darkness is off the table for them. They don't even have to repent to make it to the telestial kingdom - see D&C 19:34-36.

Therefore, your friendly neighborhood preacher is preaching truth. We all will be saved. The only lie is that he's teaching that the best we can hope for is a Telestial or a Terrestrial eternity. Of course nobody makes it into the Celestial Kingdom without putting a whole lot of effort into becoming worthy through the Atonement.
I agree, well said--but for the "don't have to repent" part, I believe. Everyone entering any kingdom will at some point, eventually, have to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, even though for some it will be after the Millenium and after they have paid for their sins.

This is what David means when he says the Lord will not leave his soul in hell. Being a premeditated murderer, he will pay for that sin, but once it's paid, he will inherit the telestial kingdom.

True Intent,
Being "saved" goes back to your definition of "being saved". See Elder Oaks' talk on being saved for more on that, and clarification.

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