Everyone is Saved! Whether or not you are a member of the church!

[brianj]

If baptism is so important that our Savior needed to receive that ordinance, I don't see how anybody can comfortably call it a dead work.

[butterfly]

If baptism is so important that our Savior needed to receive that ordinance, I don't see how anybody can comfortably call it a dead work.

I know what you mean.At first I couldn't understand the Lord calling baptism a dead work either. But it comes from D&C 22:

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

Dead works is when we do something physical without the spiritual component. For example, the baptism of fire is a spiritual ordinance. It is not a dead work. The Lord was not saying that the baptism of fire was a dead work, He was referring to baptism by water only.

Lots of people, myself included, were baptized by water without having had the baptism of fire. It is a dead work because you're just going swimming essentially - there's no change that is happening, no remission of sin, no new creature in Christ being born.


Mormon explains this concept in Moroni 8:

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

So Mormon lists 2 groups of people for whom baptism is considered a dead work. He says that to baptize people from these 2 groups is mockery before God and denying the mercies of Christ. Those 2 groups are little children and they that are without the law. The law Mormon is talking about is basically the law of Moses or the preparatory gospel.

The preparatory gospel is what presides at church each Sunday in our wards. Mormon just said that he that is under no condemnation should not be baptized. Is the church under condemnation? Absolutely. Therefore, church members should be baptized by water.

Jesus was baptized because 1) He was born under the law of moses and so He had to fulfill the whole law.
And 2) because "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Jesus needed to show those who were under the curse of a broken law how to rise above it and fulfill it. He was showing the Jews the way out of their condemnation, which is why He descended down to their level and participated in dead works.

[brianj]

If baptism is so important that our Savior needed to receive that ordinance, I don't see how anybody can comfortably call it a dead work.

I know what you mean.At first I couldn't understand the Lord calling baptism a dead work either. But it comes from D&C 22:

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

Dead works is when we do something physical without the spiritual component. For example, the baptism of fire is a spiritual ordinance. It is not a dead work. The Lord was not saying that the baptism of fire was a dead work, He was referring to baptism by water only.

Lots of people, myself included, were baptized by water without having had the baptism of fire. It is a dead work because you're just going swimming essentially - there's no change that is happening, no remission of sin, no new creature in Christ being born.


Mormon explains this concept in Moroni 8:

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

So Mormon lists 2 groups of people for whom baptism is considered a dead work. He says that to baptize people from these 2 groups is mockery before God and denying the mercies of Christ. Those 2 groups are little children and they that are without the law. The law Mormon is talking about is basically the law of Moses or the preparatory gospel.

The preparatory gospel is what presides at church each Sunday in our wards. Mormon just said that he that is under no condemnation should not be baptized. Is the church under condemnation? Absolutely. Therefore, church members should be baptized by water.

Jesus was baptized because 1) He was born under the law of moses and so He had to fulfill the whole law.
And 2) because "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Jesus needed to show those who were under the curse of a broken law how to rise above it and fulfill it. He was showing the Jews the way out of their condemnation, which is why He descended down to their level and participated in dead works.

I think you misunderstand D&C 22. In verse three our Savior wasn't calling baptism a dead work; He was calling baptism without the proper priesthood authority a dead work. Look at the header and you will see this revelation was given to people who desired to become church members but refused to be baptized again. Lesson 7 of the Doctrine and Covenants Sunday School manual refers to D&C 22 regarding the need to be baptized by proper priesthood authority.

Baptism by the authority of the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood is anything but a dead work. Baptism by proper authority is a required saving ordinance. It is the gateway to the strait and narrow path!

Context and understanding of the Lord's will are critical as you learn the scriptures.

[butterfly]

If baptism is so important that our Savior needed to receive that ordinance, I don't see how anybody can comfortably call it a dead work.

I know what you mean.At first I couldn't understand the Lord calling baptism a dead work either. But it comes from D&C 22:

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

Dead works is when we do something physical without the spiritual component. For example, the baptism of fire is a spiritual ordinance. It is not a dead work. The Lord was not saying that the baptism of fire was a dead work, He was referring to baptism by water only.

Lots of people, myself included, were baptized by water without having had the baptism of fire. It is a dead work because you're just going swimming essentially - there's no change that is happening, no remission of sin, no new creature in Christ being born.


Mormon explains this concept in Moroni 8:

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

So Mormon lists 2 groups of people for whom baptism is considered a dead work. He says that to baptize people from these 2 groups is mockery before God and denying the mercies of Christ. Those 2 groups are little children and they that are without the law. The law Mormon is talking about is basically the law of Moses or the preparatory gospel.

The preparatory gospel is what presides at church each Sunday in our wards. Mormon just said that he that is under no condemnation should not be baptized. Is the church under condemnation? Absolutely. Therefore, church members should be baptized by water.

Jesus was baptized because 1) He was born under the law of moses and so He had to fulfill the whole law.
And 2) because "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Jesus needed to show those who were under the curse of a broken law how to rise above it and fulfill it. He was showing the Jews the way out of their condemnation, which is why He descended down to their level and participated in dead works.

I think you misunderstand D&C 22. In verse three our Savior wasn't calling baptism a dead work; He was calling baptism without the proper priesthood authority a dead work. Look at the header and you will see this revelation was given to people who desired to become church members but refused to be baptized again. Lesson 7 of the Doctrine and Covenants Sunday School manual refers to D&C 22 regarding the need to be baptized by proper priesthood authority.

Baptism by the authority of the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood is anything but a dead work. Baptism by proper authority is a required saving ordinance. It is the gateway to the strait and narrow path!

Context and understanding of the Lord's will are critical as you learn the scriptures.

Thank you for your respectful reply. I read the references you listed and so I feel I understand where you are coming from, but I still see things another way. Joseph Smith stated:
"Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other half—that is, the baptism of the Holy Ghost.”
So without baptism by the Holy Ghost, the baptism of water is "good for nothing." Essentially - it is a dead work.

In D&C 22 the heading does state as you said that the revelation was given "in consequence of some who had previously been baptized desiring to unite with the Church without rebaptism." It then says that verses 2-4 are saying that authoritative baptism is required.

Honestly, I try to avoid reading the headings of the scriptures because the headings are not actually part of the revelation. They are added later and so are based on opinion. I don't see where anything about authoritative baptism being required is mentioned at all. Here are the verses:

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works. Under the law of Moses, the people had the Aaronic priesthood. The Lord says that even if you use the law of Moses, which includes baptism by the Aaronic priesthood, you still cannot enter in at the strait gate

3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen. In the Sunday School manual, the straight gate is referenced to 2 Ne 31, which says:

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life;

The baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost is what causes us to receive a remission of our sins. It is a spiritual ordinance and without it, you cannot enter in at the gate. It used to be that baptism by water was done only after you had received the real baptism - meaning the baptism of fire.
John the Baptist taught that, although he had the Aaronic Priesthood, everyone who was baptized by him would need to be baptized again:

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

We know that John the Baptist had the authority to baptize, so why wasn't his baptizing enough? It's because the Aaronic Priesthood oversees the law of Moses aka the preparatory gospel. It is a system of outward symbols and rites that teach us what should be happening spiritually. We are physically baptized in water to represent our desire to be truly baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost.

Mormon also said that baptism availeth nothing if you are under the power of redemption. Why? because redemption means to bring you from a fallen telestial state back to the garden of eden

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also; And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.

The preparatory gospel is a form of condemnation - the Lord in His wrath caused it to continue. What are the aspects of the preparatory gospel? repentance, baptism, remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments. This is what is focused on in church today. The preparatory gospel "prepares" you to receive the Holy Ghost. Notice that the gift of the Holy Ghost is not part of the preparatory gospel because once you receive your baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, you have then received a remission of your sins and you no longer live in a telestial state. You have then come under the power of redemption

[brianj]

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life;

The baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost is what causes us to receive a remission of our sins. It is a spiritual ordinance and without it, you cannot enter in at the gate. It used to be that baptism by water was done only after you had received the real baptism - meaning the baptism of fire.
John the Baptist taught that, although he had the Aaronic Priesthood, everyone who was baptized by him would need to be baptized again:

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

We know that John the Baptist had the authority to baptize, so why wasn't his baptizing enough? It's because the Aaronic Priesthood oversees the law of Moses aka the preparatory gospel. It is a system of outward symbols and rites that teach us what should be happening spiritually. We are physically baptized in water to represent our desire to be truly baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost.

Mormon also said that baptism availeth nothing if you are under the power of redemption. Why? because redemption means to bring you from a fallen telestial state back to the garden of eden

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also; And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.

The preparatory gospel is a form of condemnation - the Lord in His wrath caused it to continue. What are the aspects of the preparatory gospel? repentance, baptism, remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments. This is what is focused on in church today. The preparatory gospel "prepares" you to receive the Holy Ghost. Notice that the gift of the Holy Ghost is not part of the preparatory gospel because once you receive your baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, you have then received a remission of your sins and you no longer live in a telestial state. You have then come under the power of redemption

I cut a bit out because these are the most relevant parts.
First, let me ask a question with an obvious answer: How do we receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost without a baptism of water? The answer is that we don't. How do you survive a car sinking into a lake without getting out of the car? Again, you don't!
John's baptism wasn't enough because it was only one of many required ordinances. After the baptism of water comes the baptism of fire. After the baptism of fire comes the endowment. After the endowment comes the sealing to a spouse. After the sealing to a spouse, if we prove worthy, comes the sealing up to eternal life. Take any one link out of the chain and the chain becomes broken.

The preparatory gospel is NOT a form of condemnation. The preparatory gospel is a preparation for the higher law. You can't take a second grade student and teach him or her multivariable calculus. They must learn basic addition and subtraction until they master it, then they must learn multiplication and division. Next comes very simple, linear single variable algebra and then algebra with exponents or multiple variables. Then they must learn trigonometry, differential calculus, and integral calculus before they can begin to learn multivariable calculus.
The gospel is very similar to learning advanced mathematics. You need to start wherever you are and work to progress to the destination of Eternal Life. The preparatory gospel, the preparatory priesthood, and every ordinance are vital to a person's ability to progress.

You will not suddenly be removed from this telestial state as soon as you receive a remission of your sins. Within a matter of minutes of receiving that remission you'll commit a new sin that you need to repent of. At this time all of us need to patiently and faithfully study the scriptures and pray frequently so we can come to know our sins, repent of those sins (which includes the process of changing ourselves so we don't continue in those sins), and gaining a remission of those sins. Then we will come to know other sins that we are committing and repeat the process with these newly discovered sins. And throughout mortality we will occasionally notice that we have relapsed and we need to repent again for sins that we had previously turned from. We don't just repent, get forgiven, and step up. We are in the midst of a process of becoming pure that will last beyond our mortal lives, even beyond the millennium.

[Thinker]

I respect that many people believe in Jesus as the mediator between them and a (loving?) God, but I personally, believe that Jesus taught differently. When called "Good Master" Jesus quickly corrected the man & said, "None is GOoD save one, that is god." I believe there are other clues that he really didn't want people putting him up on a pedestal, to be worshiped or used as a human sacrifice scapegoat. Maybe, but it just doesn't make sense to me logically, nor spiritually.

I do believe that God saves us by helping us see & feel as God would have us - rather than self-created hells we may get trapped in. I also believe that many of us damn ourselves - that is we get in habits of thinking or acting that hold us back (damn us) from moving on. And the way to get through extreme trials as well as to feel the love we all so desperately crave, is to trust in and love God with all our might, mind and strength - and we'll feel God's love & help when we do. This applies to everyone, no matter what ethnicity, religion or lack of. "God is no respector of persons" - God is love so God cannot help but love every one of his children. When we feel that God has turned away from us, it's just us who turned away.