The God Theorem

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san_sani4
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The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

Do you remember a talk from Dieter F. Uchtdorf titled "You Matter to Him" (October 2011 General Conference)?
And particularly the following:
This is a paradox of man: compared to God, man is nothing; yet we are everything to God.
(link)
In case you are wondering how this paradox can be resolved, let's add into a mix Alma 26:12:
I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; ... but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things
(link)
If we paraphrase those two and simplify, we get the following: "We are nothing without God."
And now let's remember 6th grade math, and review the following:
God_Formula_web.jpg
God_Formula_web.jpg (96.5 KiB) Viewed 2068 times
Let me know what you think!

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

I love this! Well said!

Mathematically speaking: If you are nothing without something, you are that something!

I think what this formula means is that God is one with all of his creations, we do not exist without him just as much as he does not exist without us. But since he is perfect in every way, it is us who need to changed if we disagree with him, for he is always right.

Thanks for posting this!

P.S. It also means that those who say "They are nothing without God" are in fact, (whether they realize it or not), saying they ARE God!

Think about that!
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on March 27th, 2017, 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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inho
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by inho »

I like that quote by Uchtdorf.

Can you expound your formulas: why is the comparison between man and God expressed as subtraction?

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san_sani4
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

Hi inho, what I am doing here is putting into the Math language the sentence: "We are nothing without God."
without = taking out = subtract, for example: "7 without 5" would be "7 - 5" and hence it would be "2", I hope it makes sense :)

P.S.: Also, if you remember the mathematical way of comparison - how do you know if two numbers are equal? By subtracting one from another and getting zero.
Last edited by san_sani4 on March 27th, 2017, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gclayjr
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

SanSani4

It is cute, and might be a nice thing for a motivational type speaker, but it is certainly mathematically flawed. It is in your definition.

You are saying "Man without God is nothing". So if you take God AWAY from man man you have nothing. This is linguistically, and mathematically not equivalent to SUBTRACT God from man and you get Zero. Zero whats?, Gods, Men, Unicorns. What would be your unit of measure? So your initial equation is wrong.

A - B = 0

Car - Gasoline = 0 ride
car = gasoline

Still cute, and would keep interest with a lesson or a talk about how without God man is nothing. But as you point out, people can twist it into Man is equal to God.


So what does this mean?


A - B = 0

2A - B = A

(2A - B)/A = 1

2 - B/A = 1

You can invent all kinds of meaningless crap if your definition is flawed.


It reminds me of this classic Algebra trick.

IF

a=b
a^^2 = ab
a^^ 2+ a^^2 = a^^2 + ab
2a^^2 = a^^2 + ab
2a^^2 - 2ab = a^^2 + ab - 2ab
2a^^2 - 2ab = a^^2 - ab
2(a^^2 - ab) = (a^^2 - ab)
2 = 1

(I like this one better.... double route fallacy over the divide by zero fallacy)


So be careful of clever little attention getters.

Regards,

George Clay
Last edited by gclayjr on March 27th, 2017, 6:43 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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gclayjr
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

LoveisTruth,
Mathematically speaking: If you are nothing without something, you are that something!
No!

See my post above

Regards,

George Clay

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Alaris
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by Alaris »

B - A = 0

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gclayjr
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

alaris

Good Point!

and the hole gets deeper

Regards,

George Clay

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Rose Garden
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by Rose Garden »

I just think of God as the parent and me as the infant or small child. I'm in need of God's support for life. I would die very soon without him. But despite my weakness, he loves me tremendously and suffers a great deal in order to serve me, just as most human parents love and sacrifice for their little ones.

How A=B and all that works out, I can't say. That doesn't really make sense to me.

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san_sani4
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

Hi gclayjr, thank you for "qute" and "motivational speaker" - I like it! Two points to you :)
gclayjr wrote:2B - A = 2B - 2A
Is it Ok if I solve it?
Subtract "2B - A" from both sides, and I get "0 = A", and "A=B" => "B = 0" as well. Sorry, doesn't prove anything to me.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

gclayjr wrote: March 27th, 2017, 2:08 pm LoveisTruth,
Mathematically speaking: If you are nothing without something, you are that something!
No!

See my post above

Regards,

George Clay
Mathematics is about sets. It is a set theory, ultimately.

So the saying that if you remove set B from set A and left with an empty set 0, then set A = set B is absolutely true.

Set of what? Whatever you please: energy, talents, electrons, whatever. If you do not exist without God, then you are equal to Him. It is an inescapable conclusion. So alaris' statement B-A=0 is also absolutely true.

This should not be surprising. In fact it would be surprising otherwise. Think of it: The value of something is determined by the price someone is willing to pay for it. God laid down his life for you. It is obvious therefore, that in his eyes, your value is that of a God!

I think it is clear. God does not make pointless actions, and he would not lay down his life for you if you were not worth it!

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san_sani4
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

Hi alaris,
alaris wrote:B - A = 0
you are totally right! Isn't it amazing?! One point to you too :)
If you think about it, our God is the God of Glory, and when notice Lord speaking to Moses:
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
(link)
So (for deep thinkers like gclayjr) this says to me that making the man eternal and immortal is work and the glory of our Heavenly Father.
Taking the man from God is having Him cease to be God.

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gclayjr
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

Melli, san_sani4

I am beginning to wonder where the line is between joking, and stupid thinking lies.
Hi alaris,
alaris wrote:B - A = 0
you are totally right! Isn't it amazing?! One point to you too
If you think about it, our God is the God of Glory, and when notice Lord speaking to Moses:
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
(link)
So (for deep thinkers like gclayjr) this says to me that making the man eternal and immortal is work and the glory of our Heavenly Father.
Taking the man from God is having Him cease to be God.
I guess I will let Alaris speak for himself. I thought he posted his formula to point out how stupid this mathematical premise was.

B - A = 0

Does he... Do YOU think that without MAN God is Nothing? Certainly, he created man to bring about his glory., and one thing that us Mormons believe that other Christians don't believe is in the law of eternal progress, and that man may become Gods. But do you actually think that without us he is NOTHING????

What arrogance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and
Mathematics is about sets. It is a set theory, ultimately.

So the saying that if you remove set B from set A and left with an empty set 0, then set A = set B is absolutely true.

Set of what? Whatever you please: energy, talents, electrons, whatever. If you do not exist without God, then you are equal to Him. It is an inescapable conclusion. So alaris' statement B-A=0 is also absolutely true.

This should not be surprising. In fact it would be surprising otherwise. Think of it: The value of something is determined by the price someone is willing to pay for it. God laid down his life for you. It is obvious therefore, that in his eyes, your value is that of a God!

I think it is clear. God does not make pointless actions, and he would not lay down his life for you if you were not worth it!

Did you actually take any Math after High School??? Have you actually ever studied Set Theory???

Are you saying that Man and God are the same? So therefor the union of the sets of man and God is 100% there isn't part of God that isn't man and no part of man that isn't God?

Please tell me this is just April fools a few days early, and you guys are not actually pretending to understand either math or God!

Regards,

George Clay

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gclayjr
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

san_sani4,

wrote
Hi gclayjr, thank you for "qute" and "motivational speaker" - I like it! Two points to you
gclayjr wrote:2B - A = 2B - 2A
Is it Ok if I solve it?
Subtract "2B - A" from both sides, and I get "0 = A", and "A=B" => "B = 0" as well. Sorry, doesn't prove anything to me.
If I actually wrote what you quoted, you caught my post as I was fixing typos. I did write

2A - B = A

I put in those variations to further demonstrate the ridiculousness of your premise

Do you believe 2 men minus 1 God = 1 man?

Regards,

George Clay

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Alaris
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by Alaris »

san_sani4 wrote: March 27th, 2017, 4:32 pm Hi alaris,
alaris wrote:B - A = 0
you are totally right! Isn't it amazing?! One point to you too :)
If you think about it, our God is the God of Glory, and when notice Lord speaking to Moses:
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
(link)
So (for deep thinkers like gclayjr) this says to me that making the man eternal and immortal is work and the glory of our Heavenly Father.
Taking the man from God is having Him cease to be God.
King Follet:
“God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. …
If we must be married in the temple to become gods, then it stands to reason that B-A = 0 after all. Nothing arrogant here. Simple math. :)

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gclayjr
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

alaris,
If we must be married in the temple to become gods, then it stands to reason that B-A = 0 after all. Nothing arrogant here. Simple math. :)
Then I retract my "Good Point". Your math/science is as bad as the rest of them. You certainly miss 3 basic math/scientific concepts

1) The difference between necessity and sufficiency

re: being married in the temple is necessary to become like god, but not sufficient

2) difference between something that is and something that may be
We may become LIKE God, but God IS God......We are not God, therefor we are not the same. a caterpillar is NOT a butterfly

3.) even if you were not so far in outer darkness with your other premises, you still don't understand that an instance of something is NOT that thing.
If you were to become A God, you still would not Be God our Father. Adding or removing the instance of you has no effect on HIM.

Again, I don't always pick up on jokes, so please tell me this is one and that you don't really believe that you actual have a mathematical model to describe anything remotely related to the actual relationship between man and God. Otherwise, please let me know where you will be in the near future so that I can be sure to be out of the way of the lightening that is sure to come from the wrath of a righteously indignant God, who might strike an incredibly arrogant non mathematician.

Regards,

George Clay

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Alaris
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by Alaris »

:-$ Here's some simpler math since you are not sure whether I am serious.
Alma 41:3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.
4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil.
Take how you treat others for instance. I treat you X and receive Y. I recommend studying near death experiences. I've read books and many NDEs and one thing they almost all have in common is a life in review where selfish / mean people experience the mean and selfish things they did from the point of view of the people they hurt. They experience the full weight, breadth and depth. I say or do X which causes you to feel Y but X does not necessarily = Y. However I will receive Y that is unless I repent of course. Then the math gets really complicated or simple depending on your point of view.

Here's another example. Calling people names online and antagonizing and being a jerk (like calling people incredibly arrogant)... Well even though you may think that's OK its actually not. You see these are real people with real feelings. And if you don't repent you get to experience the full breadth and depth of Y.

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gclayjr
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

Alaris,

I'm sorry. I don't know what else to think of someone who thinks they are GOD! If I was to say that I was equal to God. Please feel free to let me know just how much hubris and arrogance it would take for me to think so!

Math still incoherent and illogical!

Regards,

George Clay

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Alaris
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by Alaris »

And I thought you were apologizing. Consider a man who is working hard to care for his wife and six children who hops online to have a friendly conversation with others gathered in the name of the Lord hoping he will be here also. Or the mother of 3 recently divorced losing her testimony who joins an lds forum looking for a reason to stay active. Your words have weight and consequences. This was a friendly and light hearted discussion until you started insulting people and calling them names. Your behavior is not the Lord's way.

I don't know why you are so bitter or feel the need for negative interaction but I'll still pray for you my friend. I'm not the one who abused you or bullied you or caused you the type of pain that seeks company in the pain of others but there is a better way. Love, patience, kindness, humility, longsuffering, meekness... Calling people arrogant and saying they're going to be struck by lightning?

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Rose Garden
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by Rose Garden »

gclayjr wrote: March 27th, 2017, 6:19 pm Melli, san_sani4

I am beginning to wonder where the line is between joking, and stupid thinking lies.
Hi alaris,
alaris wrote:B - A = 0
you are totally right! Isn't it amazing?! One point to you too
If you think about it, our God is the God of Glory, and when notice Lord speaking to Moses:
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
(link)
So (for deep thinkers like gclayjr) this says to me that making the man eternal and immortal is work and the glory of our Heavenly Father.
Taking the man from God is having Him cease to be God.
I guess I will let Alaris speak for himself. I thought he posted his formula to point out how stupid this mathematical premise was.

B - A = 0

Does he... Do YOU think that without MAN God is Nothing? Certainly, he created man to bring about his glory., and one thing that us Mormons believe that other Christians don't believe is in the law of eternal progress, and that man may become Gods. But do you actually think that without us he is NOTHING????

What arrogance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and
Mathematics is about sets. It is a set theory, ultimately.

So the saying that if you remove set B from set A and left with an empty set 0, then set A = set B is absolutely true.

Set of what? Whatever you please: energy, talents, electrons, whatever. If you do not exist without God, then you are equal to Him. It is an inescapable conclusion. So alaris' statement B-A=0 is also absolutely true.

This should not be surprising. In fact it would be surprising otherwise. Think of it: The value of something is determined by the price someone is willing to pay for it. God laid down his life for you. It is obvious therefore, that in his eyes, your value is that of a God!

I think it is clear. God does not make pointless actions, and he would not lay down his life for you if you were not worth it!

Did you actually take any Math after High School??? Have you actually ever studied Set Theory???

Are you saying that Man and God are the same? So therefor the union of the sets of man and God is 100% there isn't part of God that isn't man and no part of man that isn't God?

Please tell me this is just April fools a few days early, and you guys are not actually pretending to understand either math or God!

Regards,

George Clay
I'm confused. What exactly about my post did you find stupid?

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san_sani4
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

Meili, do not take it personal - I believe it was not meant towards you. "In a heat of the moment" so to speak.

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san_sani4
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

George, there is something very important you are missing out.
And, sorry, I will have to bring math into here, it just helps to explain things. Is Jesus the same as Heavenly Father? No. But:
... the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.
(link)
How do I translate it to math? Going back to set (group?) theory: when A is included or equal B, and B is included or equal A, then A = B. And this is coming from Lord Jesus Himself!! What it results in? "Father and I are one."
Last edited by san_sani4 on March 27th, 2017, 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

butterfly
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by butterfly »

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Last edited by butterfly on March 27th, 2017, 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

alaris wrote: March 27th, 2017, 7:22 pm If we must be married in the temple to become gods, then it stands to reason that B-A = 0 after all. Nothing arrogant here. Simple math. :)
Brilliant! Thanks.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

butterfly wrote: March 27th, 2017, 9:20 pm 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Ooo! Brilliant! That is the point of this whole thread, and you got it! Thanks for your post!

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