The God Theorem

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

gclayjr wrote: March 27th, 2017, 6:19 pm Are you saying that Man and God are the same?
Ultimately, yes!

That is the whole point. This is why God who sees the end from the beginning was willing and did pay the full price for you,-- the price of a God, which is your true value.

User avatar
gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

I can’t believe that you all are high fiving yourselves on such ignorant rubbish. Both Rubbish from a mathematical point of view, and from a doctrinal point of view.

First doctrinal:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Nobody is saying that Jesus Christ isn’t equal with God, I’m saying YOU aren’t equal with God. You may hope that in the future you may become equal, but today you aren’t!


Moses truly understood where he was in progression


Moses 1:10
10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

There is however one who does believe he is God and the Saviour, or at least says he is

Moses 1:19
9 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me.

Mathematical

You keep referring to set theory as if you actually had a clue what it is:
How do I translate it to math? Going back to set (group?) theory: when A is included or equal B, and B is included or equal A, then A = B. And this is coming from Lord Jesus Himself!! What it results in? "Father and I are one."

When you repeatedly show your ignorance of set theory. Is this just a phrase you looked up?

Being included does NOT mean being equal. There are bazillions of Venn diagrams out there showing overlapping circles. The part that overlaps is the included part. The only way a set is equal to another is if the circles overlap in such a way that you cannot tell that there is more than one circle.

I would hope that a Venn diagram of God an me would have some overlap. But if I thought that a Venn Diagram of God and me would look like one circle, I would have my head so far up my… well you know ... that I couldn’t see the need for humbling myself and worshiping that great being out there who created me and the universe.

Regards,,

George Clay

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 7:14 am
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Nobody is saying that Jesus Christ isn’t equal with God, I’m saying YOU aren’t equal with God. You may hope that in the future you may become equal, but today you aren’t!
Did you miss the instruction:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
So Paul wanted all to have the same mind. Very good idea, and in perfect accord with the commandment:
Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.
(3 Nephi 27:27)
So Jesus seems to agree with Paul.
gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 7:14 am Moses truly understood where he was in progression

Moses 1:10
10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.
Yes. This only reaffirms what we are saying: Man is nothing without God. It is absolutely true.
gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 7:14 am There is however one who does believe he is God and the Saviour, or at least says he is

Moses 1:19
9 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me.
The problem with Lucifer was not that he wanted to be like God, (in fact we are commanded to be like God), the problem was he contradicted that commandment by his actions, because to be like God is to love all as self (because it is yourself).
gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 7:14 am Mathematical

You keep referring to set theory as if you actually had a clue what it is:
How do I translate it to math? Going back to set (group?) theory: when A is included or equal B, and B is included or equal A, then A = B. And this is coming from Lord Jesus Himself!! What it results in? "Father and I are one."

When you repeatedly show your ignorance of set theory. Is this just a phrase you looked up?

Being included does NOT mean being equal. There are bazillions of Venn diagrams out there showing overlapping circles. The part that overlaps is the included part. The only way a set is equal to another is if the circles overlap in such a way that you cannot tell that there is more than one circle.

I would hope that a Venn diagram of God an me would have some overlap. But if I thought that a Venn Diagram of God and me would look like one circle, I would have my head so far up my… well you know ... that I couldn’t see the need for humbling myself and worshiping that great being out there who created me and the universe.
Worshiping him involves following his instruction: "be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." (3 Nephi 12:48) That is the whole point. So He wants those circles overlapping. That is the purpose of the whole program. And being a God, a perfect being, he sees the end from the beginning, therefore he values and treats you as himself, and does unto you precisely the same as He would do to himself if he was in your shoes, because he IS in your shoes. This is the very reason for the commandment "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." (D&C 59:6) Because it IS yourself.

User avatar
Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 7031
Contact:

Re: The God Theorem

Post by Rose Garden »

san_sani4 wrote: March 27th, 2017, 9:12 pm Meili, do not take it personal - I believe it was not meant towards you. "In a heat of the moment" so to speak.
Thank you. I do believe you are right.

User avatar
ason123
captain of 50
Posts: 58

Re: The God Theorem

Post by ason123 »

That's kind of like saying...
A=you
B=your mom
A-B=0 true
Therefore A=B ... And this is false because
B-A =/= 0
Makes sense? Right?

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 9:11 am That's kind of like saying...
A=you
B=your mom
A-B=0 true
Therefore A=B ... And this is false because
B-A =/= 0
Makes sense? Right?
We are all one, friend.

So Yes, you are nothing without anyone, especially without God.
we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also
(D&C 128:18)

User avatar
gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

LoveIsTruth,

Your supporting arguments are generally OK, it is your illogical extension of them, and your incomprehension of math that is bad.

Paul may want us to obtain the goal of having the same mind as God. That doesn't mean we have it now. Therefore, We are not equal to God

A NE B
QED A-B NE B-A
and B - A NE 0

It is perfectly true that man is nothing without God, but is NOT true that God is nothing without man. It is also not true that Man is equal to God!

If God had decided not to save Noah and his family, and just start over, he would still be God!
Worshiping him involves following his instruction: "be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." (3 Nephi 12:48) That is the whole point. So He wants those circles overlapping.
I'm not sure whether you did not read or cannot understand my explanation of how completely you do not understand set theory. I do not think that explaining it again will clarify anything. I hope you have no plans on pursuing any mathematically related career!

Regards,

George Clay

User avatar
san_sani4
captain of 10
Posts: 17
Location: Highland, UT

Re: The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 9:11 am That's kind of like saying...
A=you
B=your mom
A-B=0 true
Therefore A=B ... And this is false because
B-A =/= 0
Makes sense? Right?
It would be hard for my my mom to be my mom without me... :)
Jokes aside:

The main idea of this post is to show we wholeness, the oneness of all. The Earth, the Test, the "separation" of one from another - all of it is a grand illusion that many fall for. I do like it the way it is put in what LoveIsTruth is referring.

User avatar
gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

san_sani4,

Math Rules!

I may not have intuitively recognized a sneaky effort to insert some "New Age" hippy dippy ideas into this forum as if they were LDS. Your inability to define a coherent Mathematical theorem eventually brought the fox in the hen house to light.
All things are inseparably and most fundamentally connected. We are all a part of one great and indivisible whole. This one great whole is the ONE consciousness, the one self-awareness, the ONE Great I Am, and we all share it. One consciousness, but many minds; it moves the planets and shines the stars, and it gives life and existence to them all.

And because we all share one consciousness, we are all most profoundly and most fundamentally connected, and therefore whatsoever we do to anyone, we are actually and inescapably, and ultimately doing it to ourselves!

http://www.eternalliberty.info/the-law-of-justice/

It is cute. Goes well with San Francisco and flowers in the hair, but is quite contrary to either Christian or LDS doctrine.

So as I said before your thinking is rubbish, both doctrinally and mathematically

The mask is off the fox!

Regards,

George Clay

User avatar
ason123
captain of 50
Posts: 58

Re: The God Theorem

Post by ason123 »

Interesting article... thanks for sharing! I do think George Clay is right when he said that we may be STRIVING to be as God is, but that doesn't mean that we are there yet. It would be cocky to say we are God, when we are so imperfect. And therefore A doesn't equal B... at least not at this point. Having said all that it does not mean that we do not have the potential to progress to that point. Again, thanks for your thoughts.
LoveIsTruth wrote: March 28th, 2017, 9:16 am
ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 9:11 am That's kind of like saying...
A=you
B=your mom
A-B=0 true
Therefore A=B ... And this is false because
B-A =/= 0
Makes sense? Right?
We are all one, friend.

So Yes, you are nothing without anyone, especially without God.
we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also
(D&C 128:18)

User avatar
ason123
captain of 50
Posts: 58

Re: The God Theorem

Post by ason123 »

=)) =)) =)) Nice! Made me laugh. In regard to this article, I agree that we come from the same intelligence (God), and in harming others we do harm ourselves and will probably be made to feel how we made others feel at some point in the next life. This is because we have our agency and reap the consequences of our actions. However I don't believe that I am God. I believe He is a distinct (perfect) being apart from me. My Father in Heaven. We existed together in heaven, me as His child. Also, the purpose of life isn't ONLY to experience joy. It is to learn and grow and work our salvation out. It is to experience opposition and to overcome weakness. Needless to say, the whole theory doesn't sit quite perfectly with me. I will have to research it more, as it is very interesting, but it isn't complete or 100% accurate.
san_sani4 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:50 am
ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 9:11 am That's kind of like saying...
A=you
B=your mom
A-B=0 true
Therefore A=B ... And this is false because
B-A =/= 0
Makes sense? Right?
It would be hard for my my mom to be my mom without me... :)
Jokes aside:

The main idea of this post is to show we wholeness, the oneness of all. The Earth, the Test, the "separation" of one from another - all of it is a grand illusion that many fall for. I do like it the way it is put in what LoveIsTruth is referring.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 9:43 am Paul may want us to obtain the goal of having the same mind as God. That doesn't mean we have it now. Therefore, We are not equal to God
Ultimately we are.

This is why God is doing all that he does. So ultimately the theorem is perfectly correct.

You cannot cease to exist, therefore you are never truly nothing and never without God. One does not exist without the other: neither we without God, nor God without us.

If he did not love us as himself, he would cease to be God, for possessing such love is prerequisite to being God.

So God seems to strongly disagree with you. And why would he love us as himself if we ultimately were not as himself? This simply makes no sense.

Thanks.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

san_sani4 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:50 am
ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 9:11 am That's kind of like saying...
A=you
B=your mom
A-B=0 true
Therefore A=B ... And this is false because
B-A =/= 0
Makes sense? Right?
It would be hard for my mom to be my mom without me... :)
Ha ha ha! =))
san_sani4 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:50 amJokes aside:

The main idea of this post is to show the wholeness, the oneness of all. The Earth, the Test, the "separation" of one from another - all of it is a grand illusion that many fall for.
Wow! Brilliant, and exactly right! That is the "test" to see through the illusion!
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on March 28th, 2017, 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

LoveIsTruth,
gclayjr wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:43 am
Paul may want us to obtain the goal of having the same mind as God. That doesn't mean we have it now. Therefore, We are not equal to God
Ultimately we are.

This is why God is doing all that he does. So ultimately the theorem is perfectly correct.
Do you wear Birkenstocks? Do you burn Incense? Do you regularly consult with a Guru? Do you hug trees?


Regards,

George Clay

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:33 amMath Rules!
It surely does. Math is the truth.
gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:33 am I may not have intuitively recognized a sneaky effort to insert some "New Age" hippy dippy ideas into this forum as if they were LDS.
LDS has no monopoly on the truth, only on the keys of the priesthood.

In fact, Jesus himself said that the greatest, and therefore the most important truth's of the gospel are specifically excluded from the canon, as per his instruction, to prove church members, so they may not be arrogant, but humble enough to recognize and accept the eternal truth no matter from what source it comes.

In the words of Brigham Young (and I paraphrase): There is truth even in hell, and a lot of it. Latter day saints are duty bound to accept the truth no matter the source. He also said that truth from hell is as true as the truth from heaven, only heaven has more of it.

As for Jesus excluding the greatest truth from the canon, here is the proof:
14 And it came to pass that he did teach and minister unto the children of the multitude of whom hath been spoken, and he did loose their tongues, and they did speak unto their fathers great and marvelous things, even greater than he had revealed unto the people; and he loosed their tongues that they could utter.
...
16 Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them.
...
18 And many of them saw and heard unspeakable things, which are not lawful to be written.

(3 Nephi 26:14,16, 18)
gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:33 am
All things are inseparably and most fundamentally connected. We are all a part of one great and indivisible whole. This one great whole is the ONE consciousness, the one self-awareness, the ONE Great I Am, and we all share it. One consciousness, but many minds; it moves the planets and shines the stars, and it gives life and existence to them all.

And because we all share one consciousness, we are all most profoundly and most fundamentally connected, and therefore whatsoever we do to anyone, we are actually and inescapably, and ultimately doing it to ourselves!

http://www.eternalliberty.info/the-law-of-justice/

It is cute. Goes well with San Francisco and flowers in the hair, but is quite contrary to either Christian or LDS doctrine.
You do not know Christian doctrine. I can prove what it says from the scripture. Can you? :)

It is similar to how Jews thought they knew the Law of Moses so well, that they persecuted Jesus who gave the law in the first place.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on March 28th, 2017, 3:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:50 am Interesting article... thanks for sharing! I do think George Clay is right when he said that we may be STRIVING to be as God is, but that doesn't mean that we are there yet.
Agreed. However this is not what I am talking about. A child may not be able to tie his shoes, but in the eyes of a loving parent he has no less value than the parent. So is God. He sees the truth, the end from the beginning, the way things relay are. And he gave his life for you (and everyone), because in his correct view, you have the same value as himself. And He is right.

This is why he loves you as himself, because ultimately, he understands that he is all, and all are him, and we are all one.
"if ye are not one [or if ye do not understand that ye are one] ye are not mine." (D&C 38:27)
Thanks for your post.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:11 pmIn regard to this article, I agree that we come from the same intelligence (God), and in harming others we do harm ourselves and will probably be made to feel how we made others feel at some point in the next life. This is because we have our agency and reap the consequences of our actions.
Did you ever think why the law of Justice even exists?

I ask you, is it not the direct consequence of the fact that, ultimately, there are no "others," therefore the law of Justice is a simple consequence of the fact that we are all one, even ONE consciousness, therefore whatsoever you do to anyone you are actually doing it to yourself?

In fact, the commandment to love others as self is the only sane course of action precisely because there are no "others." It is all you, even though you may not see it yet. But you will.

In fact, the entire fabric of the Gospel, including the numerous assertions of the Savior like this one:
I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one (D&C 93:3)
make sense only because of, and are directly derived from, the truth's I am talking about.
ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:11 pmHowever I don't believe that I am God. I believe He is a distinct (perfect) being apart from me. My Father in Heaven. We existed together in heaven, me as His child.
That is perfectly fine, but it is only a part of a truth. The whole truth is one level deeper.

And God lives by it.

In fact, it is the reason for all his laws and commandments, and understanding it, is what makes him a God.
ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:11 pmAlso, the purpose of life isn't ONLY to experience joy. It is to learn and grow and work our salvation out. It is to experience opposition and to overcome weakness.
God said:
men are, that they might have joy. (2 Nephi 2:25)
The purpose of life is ONE, and it is joy.

We "learn and grow and work our salvation out" and "experience opposition and overcome weakness" only for that ONE purpose, because it is Joy.
ason123 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:11 pmNeedless to say, the whole theory doesn't sit quite perfectly with me. I will have to research it more, as it is very interesting,
Fair enough. Think about it. This is the purpose of this Forum after all. :)

Thanks.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 1:33 pm LoveIsTruth,
... Do you hug trees?
No. But maybe I should ;)

User avatar
san_sani4
captain of 10
Posts: 17
Location: Highland, UT

Re: The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

LoveIsTruth wrote: March 28th, 2017, 3:03 pm
gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 1:33 pm LoveIsTruth,
... Do you hug trees?
No. But maybe I should ;)
He-he... good point, given we are all ONE, without regard if humans or not! :)

User avatar
gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: The God Theorem

Post by gclayjr »

san_sani4, LoveIsTruth

Who are the people behind http://www.eternalliberty.info/the-law-of-justice/? You seem to be shills for them. I see that they have a nice picture of Jesus Christ on their page. They babble like they are trying to create some libertarian religion with LDS sounding terms. Is this another one of those organizations that fringe Mormons create like the one Amonhi is involved with that pushes some heretical ideas about making your C&E made sure by following principles quite contrary to those of the LDS church? Certainly on this site, underneath the candy coating, are promoted ideas that are neither Christian, nor LDS doctrine.

for example again
All things are inseparably and most fundamentally connected. We are all a part of one great and indivisible whole. This one great whole is the ONE consciousness, the one self-awareness, the ONE Great I Am, and we all share it. One consciousness, but many minds; it moves the planets and shines the stars, and it gives life and existence to them all.

And because we all share one consciousness, we are all most profoundly and most fundamentally connected, and therefore whatsoever we do to anyone, we are actually and inescapably, and ultimately doing it to ourselves!
Is neither Christian nor LDS. It certainly explains why you lead off with some stupid equation that states that man is equal to God the father; a most satanic concept.

Who are these guys?

Regards,

George Clay

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 4:16 pmIs this another one of those organizations that fringe Mormons create like the one Amonhi is involved with that pushes some heretical ideas about making your C&E made sure by following principles quite contrary to those of the LDS church?
I have no idea who that is. But I have a feeling that you would call Jesus himself a "fringe Mormon!"
gclayjr wrote: March 28th, 2017, 4:16 pmCertainly on this site, underneath the candy coating, are promoted ideas that are neither Christian, nor LDS doctrine.

for example again
All things are inseparably and most fundamentally connected. We are all a part of one great and indivisible whole. This one great whole is the ONE consciousness, the one self-awareness, the ONE Great I Am, and we all share it. One consciousness, but many minds; it moves the planets and shines the stars, and it gives life and existence to them all.

And because we all share one consciousness, we are all most profoundly and most fundamentally connected, and therefore whatsoever we do to anyone, we are actually and inescapably, and ultimately doing it to ourselves!
Is neither Christian nor LDS. It certainly explains why you lead off with some stupid equation that states that man is equal to God the father; a most satanic concept.
Ha ha ha! Nice! When they call you Satan for promoting the doctrines of Christ, then you know you are on the right track!

As Jesus put it:
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
(Matthew 10:25)

User avatar
Handond
Hi, I'm new.
Posts: 1

Re: The God Theorem

Post by Handond »

I love a good motivational speaker. I especially love when they are speaking of something that fits well with Christianity. A Christian motivating other Christians is so edifying. Take a look at these motivational quotes that I found http://ghinsberg.com/motivational-speaker/

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »


User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The God Theorem

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Love this!
Lauren Daigle - You Say

I keep fighting voices in my mind that say I’m not enough
Every single lie that tells me I will never measure up
Am I more than just the sum of every high and every low
Remind me once again just who I am, because I need to know

You say I am loved
When I can’t feel a thing
You say I am strong
When I think I am weak
You say I am held
When I am falling short
When I don’t belong
You say I am Yours
And I believe I believe
What You say of me
I believe

The only thing that matters now is everything You think of me
In You I find my worth, in You I find my identity
...
You say I am loved When I can’t feel a thing You say I am strong When I think I am weak You say I am held When I am falling short When I don’t belong You say I am Yours And I believe I believe What You say of me I believe
...
Taking all I have and now I’m laying it at Your feet
You have every failure, God, and You’ll have every victory
...
Oh, I believe
Yes, I believe
What You say of me
Oh, I believe

User avatar
san_sani4
captain of 10
Posts: 17
Location: Highland, UT

Re: The God Theorem

Post by san_sani4 »

Thank you, very touching!

Post Reply