The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

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LdsMarco
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The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by LdsMarco »

YOU HAVE A CHOICE OF READING THIS POST OR SIMPLY LISTEN/WATCH THE VIDEO BELOW

Imagine the Lord tasking you with abridging one thousand years of your nation’s religious history. You approach your assignment standing in the unique position of being able to look back and, by the power of the Holy Ghost, assessing why your people are now facing annihilation and why they have so frequently suffered endless cycles of apostasy and war.

You are writing your book, in part, to save a future generation that will face similar perils. As you dig into the records, armed with prophetic insight, you see a pattern emerge. You perceive a subtle strategy that Satan has employed time and again to destroy the peace, divide the people, stir up anger and destroy lives.

Now, with a sense of purpose and urgency, you begin to write, always with the thought in mind to warn your future readers about Satan’s destructive strategy, ever pleading with them to not miss the point.

What is that point? To avoid the deadly twins: contention and disputation.

I draw attention to the dangers of contention and disputation because often they are the bi-products of gospel hobbies, which, when the proponents begin to promote them, tend to divide the saints. Elder Quentin L. Cook wrote an article on the subject in March 2003. He didn’t mince words: “Another sign of spiritual immaturity and sometimes apostasy is when one focuses on certain gospel principles or pursues gospel hobbies’ with excess zeal. Almost any virtue taken to excess can become a vice.”1

I have seen so much of this.

I have known people who are obsessed with food storage and make it a religion. It’s not good enough that they gather a year’s supply; they store for the extended family and neighbors and even have extra to barter with. Some buy guns and ammunition to guard their stash. Others are prepared to mobilize at a moment’s notice with all sorts of gear so they can flee to tent cities. Many of these people don’t store food and supplies quietly; they sound the alarm and preach their doctrine to anyone who will listen. They are in the know and they feel that others ought to know what they know. Their actions are divisive and pride cements them to their gospel hobbies. If they let them go or modified them, what would they have to talk about and live for?

I am exhausted by the recruiting attempts of catastrophists who seek a following to advance their conspiracy theories and interpretations of the signs of the times. Talk about contention and disputation. Let me tell you something: I’ve written a fair amount about Zion and Babylon, and I feel pretty certain that aligning ourselves with the prophets and living the commandments will keep us safe. There are two elevators: the “Zion” elevator, which is going up, and the “Babylon” elevator, which is going down. If I am riding the Zion elevator, I’m in a safe spot. I’m aware of what is happening on the other elevator, but I am not affected.

Gospel hobbyists often fuel the fire of contention when they feel that they, because of their scholarship, are in possession of exclusive information or that they, because of inside information or revelation, are aware of the real story that the Brethren don’t dare tell us. Elder Cook said, “Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the meat’ the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the milk.’ Others want to counsel the Brethren and are critical of all teachings that do not comply with their version of what should be taught.”

I have watched people get worked into a frenzy and solicit disciples over such trivial things as the birthday of Christ and the place of his birth. Did these professed students of the scriptures ever read the Lord’s injunction to be temperate in all things?

And how about those who are fixated on the Word of Wisdom? Here is what Elder Cook says of people in that group.

Certain members have wanted to add substantially to various doctrines. An example might be when one advocates additions to the Word of Wisdom that are not authorized by the Brethren and proselytes others to adopt these interpretations. If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark. The Lord said regarding important doctrine, “Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me” (D&C 10:68) and “That which is more or less than this cometh of evil” (D&C 124:120).

Can you see the common denominator? Good people taking a good thing and obsessing over it until it consumes their lives and pride won’t let it go. Often gospel hobbyists take an ancillary subject and inflate it up so that it appears crucial or urgent. But now how do they feed the beast? They need sympathizers; they need disciples for their sub-religion. Because their gospel hobbies are by nature controversial, they tend to divide the saints from each other with contention and disputation.

Elder Cook called these gospel hobbyists to task because they are “looking beyond the mark” and attempting to gather followers to do the same thing. The Book of Mormon specifically warns against such behavior.

But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desire it. And because they desire it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

Continuing, Elder Cook said, “We are looking beyond the mark when we elevate any one principle, no matter how worthwhile it may be, to a prominence that lessens our commitment to other equally important principles or when we take a position that is contrary to the teachings of the Brethren.”

He prefaced this statement by warning of the prevalence of gospel hobbies and looking beyond the mark.

The wild rush to find the new often tramples on what is true. Today there is a tendency among some of us to look beyond the mark’ rather than to maintain a testimony of gospel basics. We do this when we substitute the philosophies of men for gospel truths, engage in gospel extremism, seek heroic gestures at the expense of daily consecration, or elevate rules over doctrine. Avoiding these behaviors will help us avoid the theological blindness and stumbling that Jacob described.

One of the real dangers of gospel hobbies is evangelizing them, soliciting a following to perpetuate an idea. Worse than evangelizing is merchandizing and profiteering a gospel hobby. How many times have I been approached by LDS authors who want to know how to get on the “fireside circuit.” I can’t believe they could invent such a coarse term.

When I was just starting out as a writer and being asked to speak, I went to my friend, Blaine Yorgason, who gave me the best counsel I had ever received on the subject.

He said, “When I am asked to speak, I assume that the Lord has placed me in that position to teach the gospel. I am not there for myself, but for Him. I never mention my books.” To this day, I have tried to follow that advice.
On the other hand, I know writers who promote themselves or even hire promoters to get on the “circuit” in an effort to advance themselves and sell books about their gospel hobby. If the bishop would let them, they would set up a table and cash register at the back of the chapel. Instead, they hand out business cards with ordering information or take people outside to their car, open the trunk and sell books – on Sunday! I’m not making this up.

There is another gospel hobby that is gaining some recent notoriety, but it has existed for a long time: Book of Mormon geography. Whoa! Talk about contention and disputation.

Like many of you, I am continually pressed to give my opinion about the location of Book of Mormon lands. My response is always the same: “I don’t care.” If Mormon didn’t feel the need to give us more geographical information and if the General Authorities, who are the custodians of the Book of Mormon, haven’t felt the need to make a definitive declaration, then I don’t perceive that the subject should demand much of my attention. But that doesn’t stop their efforts to recruit and bombard me with their “evidence.”

Don’t get me wrong. I am as interested as the next person about Book of Mormon archaeology and geography, which are legitimate, honorable pursuits. But these subjects are ancillary to the purpose of the book, which is to bring people to Christ. Nevertheless, what was once a beautiful subject has now devolved for many enthusiasts into a gospel hobby, and pride, contention and disputation have followed.

At an early age, Joseph Smith encountered gospel hobbyists and learned about the toxic nature of contention and disputation that result. In his sincere quest for truth, he described “a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued-priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings for one another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.”

Contention and disputation are so damning and damaging. Mormon waded through centuries of pride, contentions, disputations, apostasy and warfare when finally, almost like a sigh of relief, he was able to write about the Savior’s appearance. Mormon must have rejoiced when he wrote that Jesus commanded the people to abandon contention and disputation once and for all.

And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.
For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.



Contentions and disputations had always been the common denominators of Nephite decline and misery. Looking across the generations of his children, Nephi prophesied that contention would define his people’s history and eventually cause their downfall: “For behold, I say unto you that I have beheld that many generations shall pass away, and there shall be great wars and contentions among my people.”

Contentions also brought down the Jaredite civilization, and Alma, in his day, commanded the members of the Church “that there should be no contention one with another, but that…their hearts [should be] knit together in unity and in love one towards another.” Later contention nearly destroyed the Nephites after the birth of Christ.

A cursing is pronounced upon those who contend, and prophets have sought to teach unifying principles to avoid the evil of contention. King Benjamin warned,

But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit…. For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

The phrase “list to obey” means “want to obey.” What a frightening thought! King Benjamin seems to be saying that contention results from the conscious desire to yield to the temptation of making an argument at all costs. We want to contend; we like to dispute a point. And the worst part is that we know better. We know that contentious behavior is wrong, but nevertheless, for the argument’s sake to keep the gospel hobby alive, we vigorously dispute and thereby transgress “the law of God contrary to [our] own knowledge.”

According to King Benjamin, the consequences are serious. Contention draws from God a “wo” upon the contender. A wo is a condition of “calamity, wretchedness, deep distress, misery and grief.” Is a gospel hobby really worth the price of arguing in order to perpetuate it?

Mormon also wrote of the terrible price we pay for contending and disputing with each other. Of the sorry state of the Nephites who had listed to obey the evil spirit and chose to contend, he said they “were much disturbed.” Why? Because “Satan did stir them up…. yea, he did go about spreading rumors and contentions upon all the face of the land, that he might harden the hearts of the people against that which was good and against that which should come…. Satan did get great hold upon the hearts of the people upon all the face of the land.”

Do you see what was happening? Satan had managed to twist “that which was good” and “that which was to come” and turn them into gospel hobbies. In the process, he stirred up he people so that they were much disturbed. Now contending and disputing over interpretations, Satan was able to divide the people and harden their hearts against each other and against the Lord.
Clearly, contention sets in motion a frightening set of circumstances that never turn out well.

No matter how well-intended, if people’s ideas divide the saints from each other and from Christ, if they set themselves up as a light or claim exclusive knowledge, if they compete for disciples, if they turn a gospel hobby into a pseudo-religion and merchandize it, if they preach their doctrine from the pulpit, if they contend and dispute with people of another point-of-view, if they demean them or if their message and actions are in any way divisive or if pride makes them inflexible, I would advise that you flee from them.

When Mormon finally got to write about a people who had managed to rid themselves of contentions and disputations, he began to exult. He had waited so long that he couldn’t help himself. In the first two pages of 4 Nephi, he rejoices four times! “There were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another….

And it came to pass that there was no contention among all the people, in all the land….there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people….and there was no contention in all the land.”
And what was the result? “They did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, fasting and praying, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.” No gospel hobbies! They were one in heart, mind and doctrine.

“And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults.” Imagine! “And surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.”

But Mormon’s joy was short-lived. On the very next page of 4 Nephi, things began to unravel: “there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride….” Suddenly, we hear the bells of Hades start to toll. Had they learned nothing? Contentions and disputations follow pride like night follows day. Then came class distinction and people dividing into factions to pursue their unique take on the gospel and exclusive points of view. From that point forward, Mormon narrates the tragic demise of a people who became extinct because they couldn’t stop arguing with each other over things that didn’t matter.

Is any subject, no matter how intriguing, worth the price of contention and disputation?

ARTICLE: http://ldsmag.com/article-1-12424/

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HorribleUsername
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by HorribleUsername »

Thank you, LdsMarco, for the link to the article. "All things in moderation," are good words to live by.

I also like the closing of the article: "Is any subject, no matter how intriguing, worth the price of contention and disputation?" I find myself guilty of contention and disputation, at times. It's a good thing we don't have to live with our sins forever. I truly am grateful for the Atonement of Christ.

Finrock
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Finrock »

This whole article is fuel for contention and disputation because it aims to judge others as being wrong, while the author is right. It creates an us and them. These people are extreme, I, the author, am moderate and balanced.

The author is exhausted by the recruiting attempts by "catastrophist". Labeling people is a sure fire way to create an us versus them scenario. Contention and disputation on full display. Being exhausted by something is just another way of saying they are frazzled or "done with" something, which are just another way of being angry/upset.

-Finrock
Last edited by Finrock on March 10th, 2017, 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Finrock
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Finrock »

Further, being fixated on the Brethren and following the prophets can also be a gospel hobby. It turns a common sense idea such as listening to a prophet when they speak by the Spirit, because they are speaking by the Spirit, in to a new religion of "following prophets" and placing them on an unrealistic pedestal that they ought not to be placed, which can in many cases then turn into borderline, or full on, idolatry.

-Finrock

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Alaris
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Alaris »

Pride is certainly one of the patterns spelled out in the book of Mormon. So much so that we have coined a title: The Pride Cycle. Pride is a key ingredient in the recipe of contention.

The large and spacious building or culture of mocking is also a key tool of the devil. My missionary experience was an amazing way to see this large and spacious building because you step outside of the world and are able to look in and see it so clearly. So many people enlist because they feel the only way to be safe from mocking is to join the mockery. And why are people afraid of mockery? Pride. Humility is the cure. Caring more about heavenly perspectives than earthly... Caring more about what God thinks than what man thinks.
Alma 26:
10 And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting.
11 But Ammon said unto him: I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.
12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.
13 Behold, how many thousands of our brethren has he loosed from the pains of hell; and they are brought to sing redeeming love, and this because of the power of his word which is in us, therefore have we not great reason to rejoice?

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Sandinista
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Sandinista »

Good article, thanks for posting it. Too bad Finrock doesn't get it. Maybe too close to home for him.

Finrock
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Finrock »

Sandinista wrote: March 10th, 2017, 11:17 am Good article, thanks for posting it. Too bad Finrock doesn't get it. Maybe too close to home for him.
How do you know I don't get it?

-Finrock

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oneClimbs
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by oneClimbs »

Great post with a lot of things that are important to remember. It's kind a fine line to walk isn't it, you cannot grow spiritually without outpacing people in certain ways. Same with skills and talents, some might come naturally and some are developed with time and practice. Every now and then someone finds a different pace and the desire to share kicks in. When you feel like you have discovered something, especially in a faith where we teach that it becometh every man that has been warned to warn his neighbor. Other times people are genuinely wrong and you feel compelled to help correct them.

How to do any of this without becoming prideful requires one to, above all, know God and see others, in part, how he sees them. This encourages one to share and discuss but without becoming contentious. It's even more difficult in this format to discuss without becoming contentious. It's all to easy to take another's comments wrong. When we disagree, we often read a comment with a level of spite and sarcasm that perhaps was not intended. I don't know how this can be avoided other than growing some thicker skin and giving others the benefit of the doubt.

I like to research all topics, even the controversial ones. At the end of the day, yeah, very little gets me hung up. I like to come here and debate ideas in the spirit of learning and sharing but I don't feel any hatred toward anyone here. No doubt that it can be frustrating from time to time, but I think that's just the nature of this format of communication, it's tough.

We do need to avoid contention though, it is unbecoming of people who profess a fellowship with the Almighty.

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h_p
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by h_p »

How can you tell if someone's a gospel hobbyist? The same way you can tell whether they're rich: if they have or do more than you.

The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

Silver
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Silver »

How often have a group of average saints discussed the habits of a particularly faithful food storage accumulator in their ward and ended their conversation with, "Well, IF there is ever is any kind of food shortage, I know where I'm going. Yuk yuk yuk."?

Lizzy60
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Lizzy60 »

Will we reap the blessings of Abraham, if we stay middle-of-the-road in our thoughts and actions? How long did Enos pray? What did Amulek give up to go out and preach with Alma? Do you know how many times the word "exceedingly" occurs in the Book of Mormon. Do you remember what Christ said about being lukewarm?

Just some things that came to mind. Yes, I believe finrock gets it.

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AI2.0
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by AI2.0 »

Thanks LDSmarco, gospel 'hobbyists' are found on this forum and it should be a concern to us not to fall into this trap.

I think this talk by Elder Oaks is a good one to share also--it's one of my favorite talks and I've seen many examples of these on this very forum.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/10/our- ... l?lang=eng

Theses are some of the 'strengths' he identifies which can become downfalls and in the article he goes into detail explaining them and giving some examples.



Misapplication of spiritual gifts

Desire to know all

A Desire to be led in all things

Honors can sometimes turn to our detriment

A desire to sacrifice more than is needful

Social Consciousness not tempered by other values

An intense focus on goals

Popular teachers and the potential of Priestcraft

Neglect or distortion of family duties

Excesses in giving

Accomplishment and Pride

Distorted faith

Inordinate church service

All-consuming Patriotism

Materialist Self-reliance

Not really following the Prophet

Misapplication of love and tolerance

diligently seeking
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by diligently seeking »

Sunday School this pass Sunday the teacher mentioned on two different occasions with an expression of certainty and with heads nodding and faces smiling throughout class "we are the chosen-- we are God's elect." With this dangerous (apathy inducing) thinking and believing it to one's Mormon core --why would we be anxiously engaged in hungering and thirsting after righteousness and seeking to fulfill the promises within holy writ ( which others would label gospel Hobbies) if we feel we have arrived already?

I'm so grateful for Nephi and the like who help me to better understand and be ever vigilant in staying clear of the dangers of thinking and believing "... yeah and Zion prospereth..."
Last edited by diligently seeking on March 10th, 2017, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Durzan
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Durzan »

We are ALL hypocrites. Every... single... one of us. Not a single one of us is ever completely humble in these matters.

For some it is food storage; For others it is following the prophet, yet for others it is personal revelation, polygamy, or the scriptures; or tithing; and for many of us, its dreams and visions, either our own, or the ones of those who have wrote about them..Its either a problem or an obsession, and we contend our views, whether it goes against church doctrine or supports it. Its a matter of pride. And we all have it. Hypocrites, all of us! My pride, your pride, the pride of the people as a whole, its there!

Lets cast it all out and return to the humble words of the prophets, both ancient and current. Let us be uplifted once more, and wander not in strange paths, not illuminated by the Spirit!

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h_p
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by h_p »

AI2.0 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:28 pm Thanks LDSmarco, gospel 'hobbyists' are found on this forum and it should be a concern to us not to fall into this trap.

I think this talk by Elder Oaks is a good one to share also--it's one of my favorite talks and I've seen many examples of these on this very forum.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/10/our- ... l?lang=eng

Theses are some of the 'strengths' he identifies which can become downfalls and in the article he goes into detail explaining them and giving some examples.

A desire to sacrifice more than is needful
This one's kind of puzzling. Here's how he described it in the talk:
Elder Oaks wrote:A Desire to Sacrifice More Than Is Needful

A willingness to sacrifice all we possess in the work of the Lord is surely a strength. In fact, it is a covenant we make in sacred places. But even this strength can bring us down if we fail to confine our sacrifices to those things the Lord and his leaders have asked of us at this time. We should say with Alma, “Why should I desire more than to perform the work to which I have been called?” (Alma 29:6). Persons who consider it insufficient to pay their tithes and offerings and to work in the positions to which they have been called can easily be led astray by cults and other bizarre outlets for their willingness to sacrifice more than is needful.
Can someone help me understand this obvious contradiction? There's no qualifier in the covenant like "hold off on this one for now."

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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Rose Garden »

Finrock wrote: March 10th, 2017, 10:02 am This whole article is fuel for contention and disputation because it aims to judge others as being wrong, while the author is right. It creates an us and them. These people are extreme, I, the author, am moderate and balanced.

The author is exhausted by the recruiting attempts by "catastrophist". Labeling people is a sure fire way to create an us versus them scenario. Contention and disputation on full display. Being exhausted by something is just another way of saying they are frazzled or "done with" something, which are just another way of being angry/upset.

-Finrock
I believe this is a very keen insight. In seeking to instruct people on how to avoid contention, the man is creating a rift between himself and his fellowman, or in other words, creating contention.

I think he has some good points but I believe his premise is off. The focus of the Book of Mormon is not to avoid contention. It's to urge people to come unto Christ. When people come unto Christ, contention will be cleansed out of their lives in the Lord's way, which often includes experiencing more contention at first as hell unleashes its fury against you. His focus on avoiding contention is misleading. You can damn yourself seeking only to avoid contention rather than to come to Christ.

The main problem this misinterpretation of focus creates is that we receive what we focus on in life. If we are going around thinking, avoid contention, avoid contention, we are sure to find contention at every turn. On the other hand, if our focus is, seek Christ, repent, forgive, etc., we will find him and avoid contention as a side effect as well.

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AI2.0
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by AI2.0 »

h_p wrote: March 10th, 2017, 4:08 pm
AI2.0 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:28 pm Thanks LDSmarco, gospel 'hobbyists' are found on this forum and it should be a concern to us not to fall into this trap.

I think this talk by Elder Oaks is a good one to share also--it's one of my favorite talks and I've seen many examples of these on this very forum.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/10/our- ... l?lang=eng

Theses are some of the 'strengths' he identifies which can become downfalls and in the article he goes into detail explaining them and giving some examples.

A desire to sacrifice more than is needful
This one's kind of puzzling. Here's how he described it in the talk:
Elder Oaks wrote:A Desire to Sacrifice More Than Is Needful

A willingness to sacrifice all we possess in the work of the Lord is surely a strength. In fact, it is a covenant we make in sacred places. But even this strength can bring us down if we fail to confine our sacrifices to those things the Lord and his leaders have asked of us at this time. We should say with Alma, “Why should I desire more than to perform the work to which I have been called?” (Alma 29:6). Persons who consider it insufficient to pay their tithes and offerings and to work in the positions to which they have been called can easily be led astray by cults and other bizarre outlets for their willingness to sacrifice more than is needful.
Can someone help me understand this obvious contradiction? There's no qualifier in the covenant like "hold off on this one for now."
I know of a situation personally which I think is an example of what Elder Oaks was warning of. Years ago I knew of a woman who worked for a couple in their business. She worked long hours, from 7:00 am to about 6PM six days a week. I was shocked when she told me that she did not take a salary. She believed that God wanted her to 'serve' this couple and felt it wasn't true service if she was paid. She lived in their home and took care of their cooking, cleaning, etc. and was not paid for any of it, and then she managed the employees for their company and all for no pay. Personally, I think that her extreme was not emotionally healthy and I felt this couple was taking advantage of her because they were making plenty of money and they encouraged her in this. I think her story is a good example of a person 'sacrificing more than is needful'.

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AI2.0
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by AI2.0 »

Meili wrote: March 10th, 2017, 4:23 pm
Finrock wrote: March 10th, 2017, 10:02 am This whole article is fuel for contention and disputation because it aims to judge others as being wrong, while the author is right. It creates an us and them. These people are extreme, I, the author, am moderate and balanced.

The author is exhausted by the recruiting attempts by "catastrophist". Labeling people is a sure fire way to create an us versus them scenario. Contention and disputation on full display. Being exhausted by something is just another way of saying they are frazzled or "done with" something, which are just another way of being angry/upset.

-Finrock
I believe this is a very keen insight. In seeking to instruct people on how to avoid contention, the man is creating a rift between himself and his fellowman, or in other words, creating contention.

I think he has some good points but I believe his premise is off. The focus of the Book of Mormon is not to avoid contention. It's to urge people to come unto Christ. When people come unto Christ, contention will be cleansed out of their lives in the Lord's way, which often includes experiencing more contention at first as hell unleashes its fury against you. His focus on avoiding contention is misleading. You can damn yourself seeking only to avoid contention rather than to come to Christ.

The main problem this misinterpretation of focus creates is that we receive what we focus on in life. If we are going around thinking, avoid contention, avoid contention, we are sure to find contention at every turn. On the other hand, if our focus is, seek Christ, repent, forgive, etc., we will find him and avoid contention as a side effect as well.
Good insight, thanks :)

Lizzy60
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Lizzy60 »

AI2.0 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 5:00 pm
h_p wrote: March 10th, 2017, 4:08 pm
AI2.0 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:28 pm Thanks LDSmarco, gospel 'hobbyists' are found on this forum and it should be a concern to us not to fall into this trap.

I think this talk by Elder Oaks is a good one to share also--it's one of my favorite talks and I've seen many examples of these on this very forum.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/10/our- ... l?lang=eng

Theses are some of the 'strengths' he identifies which can become downfalls and in the article he goes into detail explaining them and giving some examples.

A desire to sacrifice more than is needful
This one's kind of puzzling. Here's how he described it in the talk:
Elder Oaks wrote:A Desire to Sacrifice More Than Is Needful

A willingness to sacrifice all we possess in the work of the Lord is surely a strength. In fact, it is a covenant we make in sacred places. But even this strength can bring us down if we fail to confine our sacrifices to those things the Lord and his leaders have asked of us at this time. We should say with Alma, “Why should I desire more than to perform the work to which I have been called?” (Alma 29:6). Persons who consider it insufficient to pay their tithes and offerings and to work in the positions to which they have been called can easily be led astray by cults and other bizarre outlets for their willingness to sacrifice more than is needful.
Can someone help me understand this obvious contradiction? There's no qualifier in the covenant like "hold off on this one for now."
I know of a situation personally which I think is an example of what Elder Oaks was warning of. Years ago I knew of a woman who worked for a couple in their business. She worked long hours, from 7:00 am to about 6PM six days a week. I was shocked when she told me that she did not take a salary. She believed that God wanted her to 'serve' this couple and felt it wasn't true service if she was paid. She lived in their home and took care of their cooking, cleaning, etc. and was not paid for any of it, and then she managed the employees for their company and all for no pay. Personally, I think that her extreme was not emotionally healthy and I felt this couple was taking advantage of her because they were making plenty of money and they encouraged her in this. I think her story is a good example of a person 'sacrificing more than is needful'.
She believed that God had asked her to do what she was doing, right? If He did, and she was being as obedient as she was able, do you still feel it was emotionally unhealthy? Also, are you in a position to determine what God had asked her to do?

Again, check out what Amulek sacrificed in order to preach the gospel with Alma. If you don't believe that the same sacrifices may be required of some, right now, today, then perhaps the Book of Mormon is just a book of extreme examples that don't really apply to us Latter-day Saints.

Finrock
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Finrock »

Which parts of the Book of Mormon should we liken to ourselves?

-Finrock

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Red
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

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JaredBees wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:52 pm Sunday School this pass Sunday the teacher mentioned on two different occasions with an expression of certainty and with heads nodding and faces smiling throughout class "we are the chosen-- we are God's elect." With this dangerous (apathy inducing) thinking and believing it to one's Mormon core --why would we be anxiously engaged in hungering and thirsting after righteousness and seeking to fulfill the promises within holy writ ( which others would label gospel Hobbies) if we feel we have arrived already?

I'm so grateful for Nephi and the like who help me to better understand and be ever vigilant in staying clear of the dangers of thinking and believing "... yeah and Zion prospereth..."
Did you ask your Sunday School teacher if we are not all God's children and does His perfect love not love us all equally?

diligently seeking
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by diligently seeking »

Red wrote: March 10th, 2017, 5:52 pm
JaredBees wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:52 pm Sunday School this pass Sunday the teacher mentioned on two different occasions with an expression of certainty and with heads nodding and faces smiling throughout class "we are the chosen-- we are God's elect." With this dangerous (apathy inducing) thinking and believing it to one's Mormon core --why would we be anxiously engaged in hungering and thirsting after righteousness and seeking to fulfill the promises within holy writ ( which others would label gospel Hobbies) if we feel we have arrived already?

I'm so grateful for Nephi and the like who help me to better understand and be ever vigilant in staying clear of the dangers of thinking and believing "... yeah and Zion prospereth..."
Did you ask your Sunday School teacher if we are not all God's children and does His perfect love not love us all equally?
I do know that the elitist mentality which is fraught with peril-- didn't work out so great for those who rested on the strength of having "Abraham as their father"

This type of a "we be Abraham's seed" mentality prevents this good Better BEST / MOST important mentality that Nephi shares with us:

2Nephi4
...30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

31 O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

Ps I believe and take strength from Holy Spirit lead- leaders. There is only one foundation; however, that is sure that I want to anchor (like Nephi) my self to. Christ is our unchanging Rock and Foundation. That which is right falls in the place that which is not right falls out of place as Jesus takes the lead in our life...
Last edited by diligently seeking on March 11th, 2017, 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

diligently seeking
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by diligently seeking »

Truman G. Madsen – Duplicate My Experience in Your Own Life
Posted on October 30, 2016 by ldschurchquotes
“Said the Prophet Joseph Smith after one of the most revelatory meetings in his life, “There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (Teachings, p. 237). This is the religion of every man. Not “Take my word for my experience,” but “Duplicate it in your own life.” How far do I go with this? All the way.

Let me then come to a close. I have hiked, with my wife and at night, all the way from the base of what is known as Mt. Sinai to the top. (Incidentally, with a very sore toe. Climbing hurts, and the more you climb, sometimes the more it hurts.) We went up to where the air is thinner and the veil thinner. There isn’t time to describe the feeling, but we were able to recollect that Moses, there, had face-to-face communion with God. He came back down and said to the children of Israel, in the name of the God whose name he knew, “Now, you are invited to go back up with me.”

And they said, “Thank you. No. That’s for prophets. That’s for people who are a bit fanatical. We will stay here and you go up, Moses.”

In his absence they built an idol. The power of religious impulses goes in many directions. They built an idol—a thing—and were denied the privileges of Moses (D&C 84:23–25). That is what our generation is now doing again. We are staying down below and then claiming superiority for our judgment in doing so.” Truman G. Madsen, On How We Know, BYU Devotional Address, Sept. 20, 1994

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AI2.0
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by AI2.0 »

my responses in blue;
Lizzy60 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 5:29 pm
AI2.0 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 5:00 pm
h_p wrote: March 10th, 2017, 4:08 pm
AI2.0 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:28 pm Thanks LDSmarco, gospel 'hobbyists' are found on this forum and it should be a concern to us not to fall into this trap.

I think this talk by Elder Oaks is a good one to share also--it's one of my favorite talks and I've seen many examples of these on this very forum.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/10/our- ... l?lang=eng

Theses are some of the 'strengths' he identifies which can become downfalls and in the article he goes into detail explaining them and giving some examples.

A desire to sacrifice more than is needful
This one's kind of puzzling. Here's how he described it in the talk:
Elder Oaks wrote:A Desire to Sacrifice More Than Is Needful

A willingness to sacrifice all we possess in the work of the Lord is surely a strength. In fact, it is a covenant we make in sacred places. But even this strength can bring us down if we fail to confine our sacrifices to those things the Lord and his leaders have asked of us at this time. We should say with Alma, “Why should I desire more than to perform the work to which I have been called?” (Alma 29:6). Persons who consider it insufficient to pay their tithes and offerings and to work in the positions to which they have been called can easily be led astray by cults and other bizarre outlets for their willingness to sacrifice more than is needful.
Can someone help me understand this obvious contradiction? There's no qualifier in the covenant like "hold off on this one for now."
I know of a situation personally which I think is an example of what Elder Oaks was warning of. Years ago I knew of a woman who worked for a couple in their business. She worked long hours, from 7:00 am to about 6PM six days a week. I was shocked when she told me that she did not take a salary. She believed that God wanted her to 'serve' this couple and felt it wasn't true service if she was paid. She lived in their home and took care of their cooking, cleaning, etc. and was not paid for any of it, and then she managed the employees for their company and all for no pay. Personally, I think that her extreme was not emotionally healthy and I felt this couple was taking advantage of her because they were making plenty of money and they encouraged her in this. I think her story is a good example of a person 'sacrificing more than is needful'.
She believed that God had asked her to do what she was doing, right? If He did, and she was being as obedient as she was able, do you still feel it was emotionally unhealthy? Also, are you in a position to determine what God had asked her to do? I shared a very short description of a situation I knew of personally, which I believed to be an example of what Elder Oaks was describing in his words of caution. Yes; I worked with this woman and I can say that from my own personal judgment, she was not emotionally healthy and No; I'm positive 'God' did not tell her to turn herself into a slave for a craven rich couple running a lucrative business, who were also very good at emotional manipulation. I had dealings with them, I know how they operated, I'm not simply casting aspersions against them. It's unfortunate that you immediately felt I was unfairly judging this woman's situation. Elder Dallin Oaks' warning is valid; in our religious veal, we can be vulnerable. I saw a good example of this and thought to share it, though now I'm unsure why I bother. As usual, something I thought was innocuous, was turned contentious.

Again, check out what Amulek sacrificed in order to preach the gospel with Alma. If you don't believe that the same sacrifices may be required of some, right now, today, then perhaps the Book of Mormon is just a book of extreme examples that don't really apply to us Latter-day Saints.
First, I never said that great sacrifice is not at times required, of course it is. In fact, if we aren't sacrificing on a daily basis, we aren't doing life right. Did you read the post that I first referenced? It was a talk by Elder Dallin H. Oaks, a member of the quorum of 12. I think he knows about sacrifice. I also think he's very familiar with the teachings on sacrifice in the Book of Mormon. He is the one who warned us of 'how strengths can become weaknesses'. He, not me, warned that at times 'a desire to sacrifice more than is needful' can be a problem. I only shared an example I know of personally, because hp asked about this particular warning from Elder Oak's talk. You can do as you please, but as for me, I'd rather learn from what Elder Oaks has to teach rather than reject it outright because it doesn't fit my limited perspective or experience at the time.

Finrock
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Re: The Dangers of Gospel Hobbies

Post by Finrock »

AI2.0 wrote: March 11th, 2017, 10:09 am my responses in blue;
Lizzy60 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 5:29 pm
AI2.0 wrote: March 10th, 2017, 5:00 pm
h_p wrote: March 10th, 2017, 4:08 pm

This one's kind of puzzling. Here's how he described it in the talk:



Can someone help me understand this obvious contradiction? There's no qualifier in the covenant like "hold off on this one for now."
I know of a situation personally which I think is an example of what Elder Oaks was warning of. Years ago I knew of a woman who worked for a couple in their business. She worked long hours, from 7:00 am to about 6PM six days a week. I was shocked when she told me that she did not take a salary. She believed that God wanted her to 'serve' this couple and felt it wasn't true service if she was paid. She lived in their home and took care of their cooking, cleaning, etc. and was not paid for any of it, and then she managed the employees for their company and all for no pay. Personally, I think that her extreme was not emotionally healthy and I felt this couple was taking advantage of her because they were making plenty of money and they encouraged her in this. I think her story is a good example of a person 'sacrificing more than is needful'.
She believed that God had asked her to do what she was doing, right? If He did, and she was being as obedient as she was able, do you still feel it was emotionally unhealthy? Also, are you in a position to determine what God had asked her to do? I shared a very short description of a situation I knew of personally, which I believed to be an example of what Elder Oaks was describing in his words of caution. Yes; I worked with this woman and I can say that from my own personal judgment, she was not emotionally healthy and No; I'm positive 'God' did not tell her to turn herself into a slave for a craven rich couple running a lucrative business, who were also very good at emotional manipulation. I had dealings with them, I know how they operated, I'm not simply casting aspersions against them. It's unfortunate that you immediately felt I was unfairly judging this woman's situation. Elder Dallin Oaks' warning is valid; in our religious veal, we can be vulnerable. I saw a good example of this and thought to share it, though now I'm unsure why I bother. As usual, something I thought was innocuous, was turned contentious.

Again, check out what Amulek sacrificed in order to preach the gospel with Alma. If you don't believe that the same sacrifices may be required of some, right now, today, then perhaps the Book of Mormon is just a book of extreme examples that don't really apply to us Latter-day Saints.
First, I never said that great sacrifice is not at times required, of course it is. In fact, if we aren't sacrificing on a daily basis, we aren't doing life right. Did you read the post that I first referenced? It was a talk by Elder Dallin H. Oaks, a member of the quorum of 12. I think he knows about sacrifice. I also think he's very familiar with the teachings on sacrifice in the Book of Mormon. He is the one who warned us of 'how strengths can become weaknesses'. He, not me, warned that at times 'a desire to sacrifice more than is needful' can be a problem. I only shared an example I know of personally, because hp asked about this particular warning from Elder Oak's talk. You can do as you please, but as for me, I'd rather learn from what Elder Oaks has to teach rather than reject it outright because it doesn't fit my limited perspective or experience at the time.
Mortal judgment is exceedingly narrow and flawed. I would not put much stock in to it.No one can know another persons heart unless they have the power of God and no one has the power of God except they keep His commandments. Those who keep His commandments will be filled with His love and will manifest the fruits of Love. There will benot anger in them. If they are asked to walk a mile, they will walk two. If smitten on the cheek they will turn to the other. If some takes their coat, they will give their cloak as well. If someone takes something from them, they will not ask for it again.

Sounds pretty crazy. To truly be filled with God's Love.

-Finrock

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