Faith...What Is It?

[larsenb]

Comparisons: (My Apology . . . short on time . . . work.)

So now fit these in some place.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Heb. 6:19
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Moro. 7:3
3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.

Alma 22:16
16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest.

The conundrum between Ether 12:4 and Moroni 7:40 now exists in the paradigm of which comes first.

Alma 22:16 needs to be taken contextually and the previous verse does nicely to illustrate the principle of what was transpiring in the conversation:

Alma 22:
15 And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: What shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.

16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest.

More later, Thank you, Freedom.

I think I'm seeing semantic confusion in this apparent conundrum between hope and faith.

One of the synonyms for hope is desire ( http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hope ). In Alma 22:16 I think you could rephrase the verse to say: "if thou [hopest for] this thing . . . " and then the King takes the steps recommended by Aaron, acting in faith in doing so, his hope will be strengthened by having direct experience and affirmation via the Spirit. Initially, his hope or desire led him to exercise faith, which had the effect of reifying this initial and rather weak hope.

Actually, I think in my parsing the semantics of hope and desire, I would regard hope as more passive and preceding desire; and desire seems to be more synonymous with belief and the jumping off place for exercising faith.

[freedomforall]

IF a person standing near a 200 ft +/- cliff decides to jump off, not to suicide, but as a test of three components, desire, hope and faith.
Will either of these three keep him from ending up as a dead corpse of broken bones and torn flesh upon hitting the bottom?

Will desire save him from disaster?

Will hope keep him from disaster?

Will faith keep him from disaster?

Will a combination of any two save him?

Will all three combined save him?

The Savior walked on water. Was it desire that made him successful?
Was it hope that made him successful?
Or was it faith that made him successful.

Being the Savior, did he need either desire or hope?

However, he did have to have faith.

So why is there any difference between Christ walking on water and a man using faith to jump off a cliff and survive unscathed?

Does faith have its limitations? Or does a man wanting to move a mountain have limitations?

Ether 12:30
30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith.

Here it sounds like faith is the highest needed component in order to do miracles.

Could the brother of Jared have jumped off a cliff unscathed?

Why in the church are so many people lacking superior faith?

What is the cause that keeps members of the church from obtaining strong faith like the brother of Jared? Are we inferior to the caliber of Jared's character? Do we lack belief? What?

[eddie]

IF a person standing near a 200 ft +/- cliff decides to jump off, not to suicide, but as a test of three components, desire, hope and faith.
Will either of these three keep him from ending up as a dead corpse of broken bones and torn flesh upon hitting the bottom?

Will desire save him from disaster?

Will hope keep him from disaster?

Will faith keep him from disaster?

Will a combination of any two save him?

Will all three combined save him?

The Savior walked on water. Was it desire that made him successful?
Was it hope that made him successful?
Or was it faith that made him successful.

Being the Savior, did he need either desire or hope?

However, he did have to have faith.

So why is there any difference between Christ walking on water and a man using faith to jump off a cliff and survive unscathed?

Does faith have its limitations? Or does a man wanting to move a mountain have limitations?

Ether 12:30
30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith.

Here it sounds like faith is the highest needed component in order to do miracles.

Could the brother of Jared have jumped off a cliff unscathed?

Why in the church are so many people lacking superior faith?

What is the cause that keeps members of the church from obtaining strong faith like the brother of Jared? Are we inferior to the caliber of Jared's character? Do we lack belief? What?

We must be meek and lowly of heart.

[freedomforall]

We must be meek and lowly of heart.

I attempt to see myself as lower than the dust of the earth.

Mosiah 2:25
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

[larsenb]

IF a person standing near a 200 ft +/- cliff decides to jump off, not to suicide, but as a test of three components, desire, hope and faith.
Will either of these three keep him from ending up as a dead corpse of broken bones and torn flesh upon hitting the bottom?

Will desire save him from disaster?

Will hope keep him from disaster?

Will faith keep him from disaster?

Will a combination of any two save him?

Will all three combined save him?

The Savior walked on water. Was it desire that made him successful?
Was it hope that made him successful?
Or was it faith that made him successful.

Being the Savior, did he need either desire or hope?

However, he did have to have faith.

So why is there any difference between Christ walking on water and a man using faith to jump off a cliff and survive unscathed?

Does faith have its limitations? Or does a man wanting to move a mountain have limitations?

Ether 12:30
30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith.

Here it sounds like faith is the highest needed component in order to do miracles.

Could the brother of Jared have jumped off a cliff unscathed?

Why in the church are so many people lacking superior faith?

What is the cause that keeps members of the church from obtaining strong faith like the brother of Jared? Are we inferior to the caliber of Jared's character? Do we lack belief? What?

An example of exercising faith I remember hearing was something like your cliff jumping, but involved a person who was climbing a rock face and got to a place where he couldn't go back, but to go forward would have to jump a gap. Believing and having faith that he could do so greatly increased his chances of actually succeeding. But this type of confidence normally would only arise from previous testing of one's capabilities. Someone without that assurance would probably remain in place cowering in fear until someone could rescue them. This type of faith is more mundane and doesn't necessarily involve Spiritual faith and belief.

I think for us more lowly types, we could have faith to do something like walking on water if it came as a gift from the Spirit (not just imagination) which would manifest itself as sure knowing that we could do so.

Otherwise, I think that it would take many successful experiences of exercising faith in God and the Spirit, in progressively more difficult tasks, to gain the confidence of doing something so outrageous as walking on water.

The person with little tested ability to jump the gap, could very well be adept at exercising his faith in God to the degree that he (she) could gain the faith/confidence and assurance that he could make the jump by exercising this faith in God.

[BruceRGilbert]

Removing the "time" dimension from "faith, hope and charity," it may be realized that a person can possess all three, simultaneously. The question of which comes first would depend upon the nature and disposition of the individual. Discernment and recognition can be garnished with the observation of what a person is attentive to; the "enlightenment" or the "nurturing," the quickening of the "mind" or of the "heart."


Lectures on Faith

The Object of Faith
Lecture Second

1 Having shown in our previous lecture "faith itself—what it is," we shall proceed to show secondly the object on which it rests.

2 We here observe that God is the only supreme governor, and independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift, and every good principle dwells; and that he is the Father of lights: In him the principle of faith dwells independently; and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation.

There are a couple of points that I should like to make with regard to these beginning statements of the second lecture germane to "understanding" and empowerment.

"In him the principle of faith dwells independently." 1.) God has faith in Himself.

3 Nephi 12:
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

2.) God expects us to develop faith in ouselves.

How can the "Heavens" be silent after our earnest prayers of supplication?

Doctrine and Covenants 9:
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

The key . . .

2 Nephi 32:
8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

If one has prayed in faith that God will consecrate their performance unto themselves in that it may be for the welfare of their souls and there is no response from "Heaven," that is a clear indicator that one should proceed according to the dictates of their own best judgment. It, then, becomes a
"trial of faith," with the intent of teaching you to develop faith in yourself. The "affirmation" will occur "afterwards," for we are, also, told:

Ether 12: 6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

1 Peter 1: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

God will honor such prayers. It is an invitation to action, rather than paralysis.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

[BruceRGilbert]

.

[Darren]

Which comes first faith or hope? Can there be any hope without faith?
If faith is sure evidence of things not seen, and if a man may move a mountain by faith, then why can't a man defy gravity and lift off the ground by faith? After all, Jesus walked on water. And I fully believe that had the water suddenly vanished, Jesus would still have been standing in mid air.

. . . . . . An example of that is imagine that your car veered off of the road, then you would have hope that a policeman, fireman, paramedic, would show up to do their part for you, the hospital staff would do their part, etc, etc. In this example, those other people, doing as they have committed to do, give HOPE. How did this hope get supplied, from the faith of those people unto their commitment towards goodness.

Faith comes before Hope, and then Hope helps strengthen Faith. . . . . .

If my car veered off the road, and I crashed as a consequence and needed help, I would immediately start hoping that I could either extricate myself, or that someone would find me and help me. I don't see faith coming into action before hope, in this case.

Now my hope that I could extricate myself, would naturally lead to a belief that I might be able to discover a way to do so. And going through the actual process of exploring all my options would be undertaken as a process of faith.

But if I actually failed to discover a workable process to extricate myself; I could then fall into despair. At this point, I might resort to faith in God to somehow influence someone to find me, or I could have a simple faith that someone would find me without bringing God into it.

But I'm not sure many people could actually exercise the faith that would lead to being found. Most people would alternate between hope and despair, with despair becoming the more dominant attitude as time went on .

It took faith (the verb or action is "looking"), stemming from the pure faith (looking to virtue) you had from before you were born, that animated you to the looking toward your providers, to give you the subsequent nourishment and care, to get you to the point of being able to take care of yourself, in any way, in the future.

Hope is, that you choose to contribute to the system, when you are no longer needing others to take care of you and realize that you have an interest in helping others. Hope is the realization that there is in any way a system of organization by the faithful unto humanity.

The word Hope comes from the Germanic word for Temple, "Hof" which is a place where faith is inducted and formalized into the society, to then become the Hope (commitment) that sustains the society and its members.

We Elders of Israel cannot save the constitution until we once again learn how to live and work together by pure faith, in the societal structure of hope. It is the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel that help get us out of the fog-bank of words and priestcraft stemming from the culture of the Great and Abominable Church that tries to get us to have faith in it.

The word Love comes from the Germanic word for looking, "Lo," as in, "Lo there." and means to look with purpose, as does also the word Law. Law means to look to virtue or with pure faith. Faith is a Latin word that is somewhat crazy in application, as your being a Fied in the orthodox man's Fidem, finding yourself in a position of trusting in the arm of flesh. The word faith needs to be understood as a focus or looking, and pure faith as looking to virtue, as this is a Germanic way to understand that action.

Faith, Hope, Charity and Love means to work together with God to do your part of Moses 1:39, as those words are meaningless without a focus upon God.



Using this representation above of the 11 dimensions, Faith is to connect everything within the Green Circle by best practices, by your Kraft (a Germanic word that means your Energy) back to the Green Circle. Therefore all truth is circumscribed into one great whole. How you do it is your Kraft, and the Holy Ghost is there with you to make sure you are doing your Kraft purely (connected to Pure Faith/the 11th dimension).

God Bless,
Darren

[Finrock]

The lesson on faith given in the Lectures on Faith was very helpful to me and helped me to recognize that I am more familiar with faith than I thought I was, and in fact, all of us are. It helps to know what faith is and to see how it operates in our life.

Were...[all people]...to go back and reflect upon the history of their lives, from the period of their first recollection, and ask themselves, what principle excited them to action, or what gave them energy and activity, in all their lawful avocations, callings and pursuits, what would be the answer? Would it not be that it was the assurance which we had of the existence of things which we had not seen, as yet?—Was it not the hope which you had, in consequence of your belief in the existence of unseen things, which stimulated you to action and exertion, in order to obtain them? Are you not dependent on your faith, or belief, for the acquisition of all knowledge, wisdom and intelligence? Would you exert yourselves to obtain wisdom and intelligence, unless you did believe that you could obtain them? Would you have ever sown if you had not believed that you would reap? Would you have ever planted if you had not believed that you would gather? Would you have ever asked unless you had believed that you would receive? Would you have ever sought unless you had believed that you would have found? Or would you have ever knocked unless you had believed that it would have been opened unto you? In a word, is there any thing that you would have done, either physical or mental, if you had not previously believed? Are not all your exertions, of every kind, dependent on your faith? Or may we not ask, what have you, or what do you possess, which you have not obtained by reason of your faith? Your food, your raiment, your lodgings, are they not all by reason of your faith? Reflect, and ask yourselves, if these things are not so. Turn your thoughts on your own minds, and see if faith is not the moving cause of all action in yourselves; and if the moving cause in you, is it not in all other intelligent beings?

12 And as faith is the moving cause of all action in temporal concerns, so it is in spiritual; for the Savior has said, and that truly, that he that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved.

-Finrock

[Thinker]

Faith = Correct Belief + Correct Action

Having faith results in knowledge.

Well put.

I see faith as only faith when it's active - otherwise it's just hope or belief.
And I see faith as part of love... appreciating what is, while striving for what is best (what we think is best) through trial & error (active faith).

I suppose the "correct" part is all in perspective. When we're 15, we think something is correct and 10 years later realize it's not as we thought. Faith is being willing to learn better ways - trusting in a higher power (God) in all things. It's "serenity to accept what we cannot change, courage to change what we can & wisdom to know the difference."