Who Interprets the Interpreters?

[Yod]

Men are in the habit, when the truth is exhibited by the servants of God, of saying, All is mystery; they have spoken in parables, and, therefore, are not to be understood. It is true they have eyes to see, and see not, but none are so blind as those who will not see[.] - Joseph Smith

For the purposes of this thought experiment, we're going to pretend that we Latter-day Saints don't know that the way to obtain the Spirit of God and have it with us always is to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, which are contained in Luke 6:20-49, Matthew chapters 5 through 7 inclusive, and 3 Nephi chapters 12 through 14 inclusive. We know this is the way to obtain the Spirit of God and have it with us always because we are reminded of it weekly in the sacramental prayer for the bread, but we're going to play dumb for this one.

Let us suppose that, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:11, one requires the Spirit of God to understand the things of God, such as scripture, and that without the Spirit of God, one cannot understand the things of God, such as scripture.

Let us suppose that a man or set of men composes what they call an "official interpretation" of scripture, to help those who do not have the Spirit of God understand scripture.

Here's the unsolvable dilemma:

If the "official interpretation" is scripture, then it cannot be understood by those who do not have the Spirit of God, because scripture requires the Spirit of God to understand.

If the "official interpretation" can be understood by those who do not have the Spirit of God, then it is not scripture.

To put it simply - for those who do not have the Spirit of God, if it is understood, it isn't scripture, and if it is scripture, it isn't understood.

Therefore "official interpretations" do not and cannot solve the problem for which they are supposedly devised - helping those who do not understand scripture because they do not have the Spirit of God to understand scripture.

So what problem do "official interpretations" really solve, since they do not and cannot solve the problem they're supposed to solve?

Again, we're pretending we don't know that those who do not have the Spirit of God and therefore cannot understand scripture are not keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ, and we're also pretending we don't know that if you have the Spirit of God, you don't need any man to tell you what the scriptures mean, as John said in 1 John 2:27.

But wait! There's more.

If this argument is valid, then those who depend upon a man or set of men to understand scripture for them do not understand scripture, and therefore do not have the Spirit of God, and therefore do not keep the commandments of Jesus Christ.

That might be why Jeremiah said this.

Jeremiah 17:5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

And why Nephi said this.

2 Nephi 4:34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

And this.

2 Nephi 28:31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And this.

1 Nephi 15
6 And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations.

7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

It sounds like Nephi understood this principle.

[brlenox]

Men are in the habit, when the truth is exhibited by the servants of God, of saying, All is mystery; they have spoken in parables, and, therefore, are not to be understood. It is true they have eyes to see, and see not, but none are so blind as those who will not see[.] - Joseph Smith

For the purposes of this thought experiment, we're going to pretend that we Latter-day Saints don't know that the way to obtain the Spirit of God and have it with us always is to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, which are contained in Luke 6:20-49, Matthew chapters 5 through 7 inclusive, and 3 Nephi chapters 12 through 14 inclusive. We know this is the way to obtain the Spirit of God and have it with us always because we are reminded of it weekly in the sacramental prayer for the bread, but we're going to play dumb for this one.

Let us suppose that, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:11, one requires the Spirit of God to understand the things of God, such as scripture, and that without the Spirit of God, one cannot understand the things of God, such as scripture.

Let us suppose that a man or set of men composes what they call an "official interpretation" of scripture, to help those who do not have the Spirit of God understand scripture.

Here's the unsolvable dilemma:

If the "official interpretation" is scripture, then it cannot be understood by those who do not have the Spirit of God, because scripture requires the Spirit of God to understand.

If the "official interpretation" can be understood by those who do not have the Spirit of God, then it is not scripture.

To put it simply - for those who do not have the Spirit of God, if it is understood, it isn't scripture, and if it is scripture, it isn't understood.

Therefore "official interpretations" do not and cannot solve the problem for which they are supposedly devised - helping those who do not understand scripture because they do not have the Spirit of God to understand scripture.

So what problem do "official interpretations" really solve, since they do not and cannot solve the problem they're supposed to solve?

Again, we're pretending we don't know that those who do not have the Spirit of God and therefore cannot understand scripture are not keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ, and we're also pretending we don't know that if you have the Spirit of God, you don't need any man to tell you what the scriptures mean, as John said in 1 John 2:27.

But wait! There's more.

If this argument is valid, then those who depend upon a man or set of men to understand scripture for them do not understand scripture, and therefore do not have the Spirit of God, and therefore do not keep the commandments of Jesus Christ.

That might be why Jeremiah said this.

Jeremiah 17:5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

And why Nephi said this.

2 Nephi 4:34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

And this.

2 Nephi 28:31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And this.

1 Nephi 15
6 And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations.

7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

It sounds like Nephi understood this principle.

Ten or small and inconsequential whichever is your objective.

Please pardon my candor and I hope you do not find it abrasive. I just don't mince words very well and prefer very direct communication in order that genuine communication can take place.

You've taken a Jewish moniker for your online name so maybe you have some background. I would be surprised as your argument is completely indicative of one that does not grasp certain Jewish principles of scriptural interpretation and as well it is troubling even from a perspective of traditional LDS theology. I presume you are LDS but maybe you are not - don't know.

Anyway - briefly the Jewish concept of PRDS embraces the various levels of understanding that one must go through to obtain the highest level of understanding. PSHAT is the lowest level and is often described as the simple level. It is not that it is truly simple but sometimes it gets described that way. Fundamental is a better value measurement I think. From the PSHAT we go up various levels of deeper grasp of scriptural implications to REMEZ, D'RESH and finally SOD. Each level depends on maintaining the value of the earlier level so that helps maintain an appropriate boundary to the later levels as the earlier must sustain the direction. This is actually very valuable, as typically Americanized thinkers have no sense of order to how to advance in knowledge and understanding and quite frequently become self-affirming with conclusions that drift off into space and are not recognizable nor sustainable to the early levels.

From an LDS perspective we are very fond of a similar perspective simply without the obvious Jewish terminologies of line upon line, precept upon precept. It is essentially the same perspective as the Jewish one but I have found that marrying the two concepts is valuable as a means of understanding how the spirit will advance our knowledge slowly by degrees as we grow.

This seems to be a key element of your observation where you state:

Yod states:
If the "official interpretation" is scripture, then it cannot be understood by those who do not have the Spirit of God, because scripture requires the Spirit of God to understand.

If the "official interpretation" can be understood by those who do not have the Spirit of God, then it is not scripture.

To put it simply - for those who do not have the Spirit of God, if it is understood, it isn't scripture, and if it is scripture, it isn't understood.

Therefore "official interpretations" do not and cannot solve the problem for which they are supposedly devised - helping those who do not understand scripture because they do not have the Spirit of God to understand scripture.

So what problem do "official interpretations" really solve, since they do not and cannot solve the problem they're supposed to solve?

Again, we're pretending we don't know that those who do not have the Spirit of God and therefore cannot understand scripture are not keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ, and we're also pretending we don't know that if you have the Spirit of God, you don't need any man to tell you what the scriptures mean, as John said in 1 John 2:27.

But wait! There's more.

If this argument is valid, then those who depend upon a man or set of men to understand scripture for them do not understand scripture, and therefore do not have the Spirit of God, and therefore do not keep the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Brlenox replies:

There is an aspect of this observation that might be sustainable from a very austere point of view. However, it completely undermines the fact that there are degrees of understanding and that many can be achieved with no inspiration at all. I can grasp that there are 10 virgins and that five of them weren't ready when a bridegroom showed up. However, that is the nature of what is called PSHAT understanding - it simply grasps the story line of the verses in question. So to say that by someone understanding this level of insight into a scriptural reference even if they got there by reading someones official interpretation, renders the official interpretation false is categorically incorrect. It is a perfectly valid and sustainable insight to those verses at a very limited level of understanding but it is consistent with the truths which will follow.

Maybe I read the story a year later and I now understand that the bridegroom is Christ and that it is not an actual wedding that being referenced but something called the second coming. So I am beginning to have my mind opened up to detect the REMEZ or symbolic meanings that are implicit in scripture and require a foundation of earlier lines and precepts before they can be grasped. Maybe some official declaration pointed this out to me but the spirit is helping me to see that there is potential in looking for deeper meaning and this is sparking my desire to draw closer to the spirit so that I can learn more. However it is a lifetime of endeavor this advancing from line upon line precept upon precept.

Later after many years and continued cultivation of the spirit I have found that I might even detect things which are generally unknown by others who are not spiritually mature.

From this perspective we might say that in the beginning we are benefited by official interpretations. Now it would be much easier to respond to this post if you weren't being so nebulous as to what "official interpretation" you think fails in it's efforts. But overall as you have described your perspective as I am now understanding it- I personally would reject it soundly, rapidly and with no reluctance.

I do not see that you are really taking Joseph Smiths quote to heart in the proper fashion and feel myself that he is referencing how men lacking in humility refuse to be taught when they have the potential within their grasp to understand but choose not to. In order to validate their choice they intentionally reject the servants of God's message by falling back to other widely acceptable interpretations of the nature of parables in the scriptures as vehicles of mystery. They create an alternative reality to justify their lack of desire to understand the truth and thus require themselves to change.

In its way this is exactly what you have done as you have stretched certain scriptural implications in ways that sustain your complicated conjectures but are beyond the mark when circumscribed into the one great whole of the gospel.

In other words Joseph's statement is not designed to address the true process of growing in light and understanding but is instead designed to reflect upon those who would reject the prophets. It is not as broad an application as you are attempting as I see it.

[Yod]

There is an aspect of this observation that might be sustainable from a very austere point of view.

Translation: I am correct in the very narrow sense I am speaking in, and cannot be substantially contradicted. But! A case shall be attempted. The consequences to what I say are held to be too negative.

I do not see that you are really taking Joseph Smiths quote to heart in the proper fashion and feel myself that he is referencing how men lacking in humility refuse to be taught when they have the potential within their grasp to understand but choose not to.

Translation: My interlocutor disagrees with me, but can't establish his case. It does not occur to him to take my statements seriously - that is, to consider that I may in fact be correct in all points. I cannot, in his eyes, be right, even if nothing I say can be substantially objected to.

In order to validate their choice they intentionally reject the servants of God's message by falling back to other widely acceptable interpretations of the nature of parables in the scriptures as vehicles of mystery. They create an alternative reality to justify their lack of desire to understand the truth and thus require themselves to change.

Indeed. People always reach for metaphor, allegory, or parable to "believe" what they do not believe, but to remain part of the faith community, as they see it, they must publicly acknowledge. Basically, people lie about their beliefs to appear believers. Christ called this practice, pretending unto men to believe what they do not, in fact, believe, "hypocrisy."

In its way this is exactly what you have done as you have stretched certain scriptural implications in ways that sustain your complicated conjectures but are beyond the mark when circumscribed into the one great whole of the gospel.

Which, of course, is another way of saying "I am right and you are wrong but I can't establish my case." Two points: this is not conjecture, and it is not complicated.

In other words Joseph's statement is not designed to address the true process of growing in light and understanding but is instead designed to reflect upon those who would reject the prophets. It is not as broad an application as you are attempting as I see it.

Yes, you admit you disagree, but without substance behind your disagreement.

What, precisely, is your actual and substantial objection to doing what you said you would do last time you took the sacramental bread? Do you acknowledge the scriptures as the word of God, and, if so, do you acknowledge the commandments of Christ, recorded in Luke 6, Matthew 5-6, and 3 Nephi 12-14, as coming from him?

And if you appeal to men to defeat the commandments of Christ, aren't you a disciple of the men, and not of Christ?

[brlenox]

Yes, you admit you disagree, but without substance behind your disagreement.

Yeah - maybe if you will build up a stronger case for an example of a specific interpretation with an explanation why you feel the "Official Explanation" fails then we can engage for further discussion that is easier to see what each of us is intending to imply. As it is it is late and the circular nature of your nebulous reasoning is making my head spin in ways that just can't be healthy. I explained earlier why I think you are mistaken in elaborating on the Joseph Smith quote you are using in the fashion you have.

It wasn't difficult to grasp my point that Joseph is talking about something you are not. Perhaps if you stay up later tonight and reread it several more times you'll see the justification that I provided. Otherwise in the absence of something with specificity this probably isn't going to go any further for me.

Interpretation will not be necessary in your response - I'm not running away, you haven't leveled a lethal blow and slain the foe. Simply that the minutes of life are far to valuable to go off tilting at windmills...

[Yod]

I am not trying to slay you, but to bring you to life, with a simple message: keep the commandments of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

1 Nephi 13
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

If you want to know what my agenda is, that's it: if you wish to live, keep the commandments of Jesus Christ as contained in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

I have no need to make a specific case against any particular "official interpretation;" the truth of my generalized argument stands on its own. "Official interpretations" as such are useless - except for one purpose, and that is the crafting of creeds, which things are abominable before God.

Let us return to more of Joseph.

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

It is not clear that Joseph was talking about something I am not, even in the quote in the OP. It seems more clear that Joseph is talking about what I am talking about. If you depend upon men, you do not have the Spirit of God; you do not have the Spirit of God because you do not obey the commandments of Jesus Christ; you do not obey the commandments of Jesus Christ because you do not believe Jesus Christ; you do not believe Jesus Christ because you have another God above him and believe that God; the God you have above Jesus Christ is mammon, the substance of this world, which substance shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the Great; that substance is gold, silver, dollars, goods, food, clothing, toys, houses, vehicles, credentials, degrees, and whatever else you labor for and serve in the stead of Jesus Christ; it is in that substance that you truly trust and place your faith and desires in; that is the God you obey.

And, again:

We would say to the brethren [the common lay member of the Church, not the officers], seek to know God in your closets, call upon him in the fields. Follow the directions of the Book of Mormon, and pray over, and for your families, your cattle, your flocks, your herds, your corn, and all things that you possess; ask the blessing of God upon all your labors, and everything that you engage in. Be virtuous and pure; be men of integrity and truth; keep the commandments of God; and then you will be able more perfectly to understand the difference between right and wrong--between the things of God and the things of men; and your path will be like that of the just, which shineth brighter and brighter unto the perfect day.

Of course, if one does not keep the commandments of God, one will not be able more perfectly to understand the difference between right and wrong, nor between the things of God and the things of men.

But Alma said much the same.

Alma 12
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

By, of course, keeping his commandments as they have covenanted to do by baptism and by sacrament and by endowment. But the disbelieving and disobedient?

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word...

Which lesser portion is, of course, "believe, repent, and keep the commandments!"

... and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

The believing and obedient gain understanding. And the disobedient?

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

No mysteries, no knowledge. Only repeated echoes of "believe, repent, and keep the commandments" until you perish. And pretended mysteries from men, gained without obedience to the commandments of God, whereby they can be known to be false.

And again:

Mormon 8
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

The third commandment - Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who taketh his name in vain - is best understood not as speaking the Lord's name vainly, though it does mean that as well. The word translated "take" means "to carry, to bear, to take with you." The word translated "vain" means "false, lie, emptiness, vanity." Therefore, it may be best understood as "Thou shalt not take upon yourself the name of the Lord God falsely," that is, to take upon yourself by his name by, say, baptism, while not doing the works commanded of you nor teaching his commandments nor speaking his words, as hypocrites do.

[brlenox]

Yod - let's cut to the chase. Tell me your thoughts on the value of the ideology of following the prophet.

[Yod]

Yod - let's cut to the chase. Tell me your thoughts on the value of the ideology of following the prophet.

I have cut to the chase, and you have disputed and are now disputing, therefore your idols are threatened.

If you follow a prophet, you are that prophet's disciple.

[brlenox]

Yod - let's cut to the chase. Tell me your thoughts on the value of the ideology of following the prophet.

I have cut to the chase, and you have disputed and are now disputing, therefore your idols are threatened.

If you follow a prophet, you are that prophet's disciple.

Ahh! I apologize. Because I haven't been around much over the past few years I don't know many of the names currently participating in the discussion. So I see a post of potential interest and I respond as if the OP is written from some state of normal or at least within the boundaries and I see I have made a mistake. I should never have engaged and would not If I had understood your "agenda" more clearly. Or at least I would not have engaged from the standpoint of a sincere discussion on the topic. I might have engaged you if I thought you had any talent at swaying people to principles of unrighteousness but I can now see that that is not currently one of your talents. You speak in such nebulous fashion that even the most deluded would probably have difficulty grasping your intent. Please except my apologies and forgive my intrusion into your singular existence.

[Yod]

In other words, you are uninterested in obedience to the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ even though you will testify, or have testified, to God today, most likely, that you are desiring to do them, by partaking of the sacramental bread.

Apparently, they're outside of normal boundaries.

So be it.

[larsenb]

Apologies, brlenox, for roping you into this. I think your reaction is correct.

[Yod]

His reaction was to misinterpret my post as an expansion of Joseph's statement, considering my argument an appeal to authority when in reality I only included Joseph's statement as a tacked-on afterthought because Joseph described, aptly, the reaction of the unbelieving and disobedient Laman and Lemuel, who also could not understand their father's words, considering it all mysterious and parable and simply incomprehensible. That they turned to Nephi to explain it to them demonstrated to Nephi that they were disobedient.

They had not, at that time, "rejected" the prophets, but had followed them out into the wilderness.

[marc]

So what problem do "official interpretations" really solve, since they do not and cannot solve the problem they're supposed to solve?

Official interpretations have not solved my problems. They may have, on occasion, helped me to figure out my problems, the greatest being that I yet remain in this fallen and wicked state of unbelief. When I lack wisdom, I simply ask of God. He has not yet upbraided me and He has filled me to some measure with his love.

D&C 121:45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

The Lord continues to teach me line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little as dew from heaven. As I have said elsewhere on these forums, the scriptures are all the testimony we need to learn about and receive the fullness of the Lord.

[brlenox]

His reaction was to misinterpret my post as an expansion of Joseph's statement, considering my argument an appeal to authority when in reality I only included Joseph's statement as a tacked-on afterthought because Joseph described, aptly, the reaction of the unbelieving and disobedient Laman and Lemuel, who also could not understand their father's words, considering it all mysterious and parable and simply incomprehensible. That they turned to Nephi to explain it to them demonstrated to Nephi that they were disobedient.

They had not, at that time, "rejected" the prophets, but had followed them out into the wilderness.

Yod - just a wee bit of an observation. You obviously didn't read the first half of my original post which dealt with your premise, independent of the Joseph Smith quote. So why did you take the name of Yod in the first place?

[Yod]

brlenox,

It is unclear you understood the premise of my argument; the argument followed deductively from the premise, which was carefully stated. In scanning your original posting thrice, now, I fail to see where you dealt with the premise in any substantive manner.

If you wish to argue against it, by all means, you may. Here is the premise.

1 Corinthians 2
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

This principle is repeated in the D&C.

D&C 50
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

From this principle [fact, really] does the argument follow.

[Yod]

Of course, Brlenox, we now face a dilemma.

If you do not personally keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, you will not properly understand the premise, but you will think you do.

If you do personally keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, you will understand the premise properly, and you will not dispute against the argument.

Remember: arguments are not false merely because we find the conclusions objectionable.

And you did, already, dispute the argument.

[brlenox]

Of course, Brlenox, we now face a dilemma.

If you do not personally keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, you will not properly understand the premise, but you will think you do.

If you do personally keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, you will understand the premise properly, and you will not dispute against the argument.

Remember: arguments are not false merely because we find the conclusions objectionable.

And you did, already, dispute the argument.

There is no dilemma. I dispute because you are wrong. It is a simple thing really. I was providing some insight in the hopes you were more than just borrowing a Hebrew moniker and that you might have had actual back ground. It was a long shot, I realize. How many people really have any understanding at all of the learning of the Jews? However, you are animated and that provides some level of entertainment...for a moment.

[Yod]

Of course you do. The relevant point is that you dispute, howsoever you justify yourself in so doing.

[brlenox]

Of course you do. The relevant point is that you dispute, howsoever you justify yourself in so doing.

What if the relevant point is that one is playing the role of an accuser.

[brlenox]

Apologies, brlenox, for roping you into this. I think your reaction is correct.

It's ok Mr. b, I know your intent was not to have me engage this type of respondent. But perhaps there is something to be gained in terms of entertainment or such...

[larsenb]

Apologies, brlenox, for roping you into this. I think your reaction is correct.

It's ok Mr. b, I know your intent was not to have me engage this type of respondent. But perhaps there is something to be gained in terms of entertainment or such...

Umm . . . . possibly. But my entertainment meter has only done a momentary blip, so far.

[Yod]

Of course you do. The relevant point is that you dispute, howsoever you justify yourself in so doing.

What if the relevant point is that one is playing the role of an accuser.

What if, indeed.