Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

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Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

What do you think?

Are we to observe and do the Ten Commandments?
Exodus 20:1-17
And God spake all these words, saying,

I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (1)

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (2)

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (3)

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (4)

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. (5)

Thou shalt not kill. (6)

Thou shalt not commit adultery. (7)

Thou shalt not steal. (8)

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (9)

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his @#$, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. (10)

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Finrock »

Yes. They still apply. If you truly love a person, you would do or not do, respectively, those ten commandments naturally. These things would not have to be enumerated at that point. Just like our constitution, it enumerates some rights that the people have, but those rights exist naturally even without them being enumerated and not only that we should not therefore construe because some rights have been enumerated that therefore all rights have been enumerated.

What we should or should not do is all encompassed naturally in Love and there are an innumerable amount of Do's and Don'ts in Love and it is impossible to list them all and absurd. So, just Love.

-Finrock

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

So, they still apply.

And God, in his wisdom, saw fit to enumerate them rather than merely saying "Be Excellent to Each Other, and Party On, Dudes!"

And Abinadi said if one keeps the ten commandments, one shall be saved.

Yet I am repeatedly assured that the commandments of God are impossible, impossible, impossible to keep - even though the scriptures say they must all be kept or else we cannot be saved, and that the Lord gives no commandments to men save he prepares a way for them to accomplish his commandments.

There seems to be a contradiction somewhere. Why do men say the commandments are impossible to keep?
Last edited by Yod on February 23rd, 2017, 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote:So, they still apply.

And Abinadi said if one keeps the ten commandments, one shall be saved.

Yet I am repeatedly assured that the commandments of God are impossible, impossible, impossible to keep - even though the scriptures say they must all be kept or else we cannot be saved, and that the Lord gives no commandments to men save he prepares a way for them to accomplish his commandments.

There seems to be a contradiction somewhere. Why do men say the commandments are impossible to keep?
If you Love you will keep all of the commandments. If you don't Love then its impossible to keep all the commandments.

-Finrock

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

So how does one Love? Actionable specificity is what is wanted, and not merely the word "Love" repeated.

braingrunt
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2042

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by braingrunt »

Each instance of temptation is possible to overcome, we just don't always have the desire or determination to find the way out.

Since the temptation has an escape prepared, success or failure becomes something you can be judged by. Otherwise, not.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

So we are fairly judged by our failure to keep the commandments if we know them.

Abinadi says anyone who knows the commandments and will not keep them - every human who has ever rebelled and died in his sins - shall not obtain the first resurrection, and cannot be redeemed. He says anyone who does keep them shall be saved and shall obtain the first resurrection.

Therefore it seems to be an important issue whether or not we actually can keep all of them, or, if indeed as I am repeatedly assured, they cannot be kept.
Last edited by Yod on February 23rd, 2017, 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Finrock »

Lol, you want me to enumerate commandments...ironic.
Moroni 7 wrote:47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.
-Finrock

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

It is a curious fact, is it not, Finrock, that the scriptures cannot be reduced without loss to those two verses? Even the chapter you culled them from cannot be so reduced. What use are the rest of those words, when, as you say, all you need is Love?

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

Why, in your opinion, Finrock, did God in his wisdom see fit to enumerate commandments, instead of merely saying "Be Excellent to Each Other, and Party On, Dudes!"?

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote:It is a curious fact, is it not, Finrock, that the scriptures cannot be reduced without loss to those two verses? Even the chapter you culled them from cannot be so reduced. What use are the rest of those words, when, as you say, all you need is Love?
Everything points to Love. It is all about love. If you have love you can keep all the commandments. If you don't, you'll need to be commanded on what to do and how to act until you figure it out that you need to do as its written in Moroni. God is Love. When you have True Love you don't need me to give you actionable specific examples of how to Love.

Thank goodness for the examples in the scriptures to help us figure it out from people who were able to keep all of the commandments because they had Love.

-Finrock

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote:Why, in your opinion, Finrock, did God in his wisdom see fit to enumerate commandments, instead of merely saying "Be Excellent to Each Other, and Party On, Dudes!"?
You should know the answer to this yourself. But answered in my previous post.

-Finrock

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

And also a curious fact - Mormon didn't say one would obtain that perfect love by means of praying with all the energy of heart. He says to make that prayer that we "may" be filled with it; that we "may" become the sons of God, and so on (subjunctive, not indicative). The answer to our prayer might be something different than being filled with perfect love.

So we have to ask again, how does one Love? With actionable specificity.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

Finrock wrote:
Yod wrote:Why, in your opinion, Finrock, did God in his wisdom see fit to enumerate commandments, instead of merely saying "Be Excellent to Each Other, and Party On, Dudes!"?
You should know the answer to this yourself. But answered in my previous post.

-Finrock
Not that I can see. Perhaps you could clarify your answer? You see, if all things could be reduced as you seem to think to those two verses, the scriptures would be a lot shorter than they, in fact, are. That fact requires explanation.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote:
Finrock wrote:
Yod wrote:Why, in your opinion, Finrock, did God in his wisdom see fit to enumerate commandments, instead of merely saying "Be Excellent to Each Other, and Party On, Dudes!"?
You should know the answer to this yourself. But answered in my previous post.

-Finrock
Not that I can see. Perhaps you could clarify your answer?
All laws and prophets hang on Love. A carnal/natural man doesn't/cannot have Charity. Your nature must be changed. How does a natural man change his nature? He can't, impossible for him to do it. Can't keep the commandments. But, God provides a way for us to have Charity, because He said we should. God tells us I can and will change your nature from carnal to spiritual because of mercy and through grace, if you want me to.

He says, I give you this gift of Charity, freely. When you are ready to receive it you will receive it. Those with experience have told us that we be ready to receive it when we have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Just means we are ready to surrender our pride and the natural man so that we can be changed so that we can be Love. Since all the law and all the prophets hang on love, we have fulfilled and obeyed all of the commandments when we have obtained Charity. Charity is a gift from God that is received by those ready to receive it. It is available and possible only through the merits and grace of Jesus Christ. Only God can change our natures so that we can be filled with His Love. We learn all of these things from the scriptures.

That answers all of your questions. May I now suggest that you don't just make this an intellectual pursuit but that you earnestly ask God rather than trying to understand my ramblings.

-Finrock

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

Finrock wrote:
Yod wrote:
Finrock wrote:
Yod wrote:Why, in your opinion, Finrock, did God in his wisdom see fit to enumerate commandments, instead of merely saying "Be Excellent to Each Other, and Party On, Dudes!"?
You should know the answer to this yourself. But answered in my previous post.

-Finrock
Not that I can see. Perhaps you could clarify your answer?
All laws and prophets hang on Love. A carnal/natural man doesn't/cannot have Charity. Your nature must be changed. How does a natural man change his nature? He can't, impossible for him to do it. Can't keep the commandments. But, God provides a way for us to have Charity, because He said we should. God tells us I can and will change your nature from carnal to spiritual because of mercy and through grace, if you want me to.

He says, I give you this gift of Charity, freely. When you are ready to receive it you will receive it. Those with experience have told us that we be ready to receive it when we have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Just means we are ready to surrender our pride and the natural man so that we can be changed so that we can be Love. Since all the law and all the prophets hang on love, we have fulfilled and obeyed all of the commandments when we have obtained Charity. Charity is a gift from God that is received by those ready to receive it. It is available and possible only through the merits and grace of Jesus Christ. Only God can change our natures so that we can be filled with His Love. We learn all of these things from the scriptures.

That answers all of your questions. May I now suggest that you don't just make this an intellectual pursuit but that you earnestly ask God rather than trying to understand my ramblings.

-Finrock
While you may be responding to my questions, you aren't actually answering them. Your suggestion assumes things which may not be the case, as do your responses.

He that Loveth hath fulfilled the law, as it is written; what is this law which those that Love have fulfilled?

Or have you never considered the reason that the scriptures cannot be reduced to the last two verses in Moroni 7 is because the rest of the words matter?

braingrunt
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2042

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by braingrunt »

We must keep the commandments OR obtain forgiveness.

Since all have sinned at some point, we all need grace.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

Why is it not "we must keep the commandments AND obtain forgiveness"?

What is repentance if it is not casting aside the ways of disobedience and walking wholly in the commandments?

While all men, saving Christ alone, have sinned, and indeed all must have grace, the commandments must always be kept, correct?

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

Is it fair to say that those who claim that keeping the commandments is impossible are not keeping the commandments?

braingrunt
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2042

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by braingrunt »

Yod wrote:Why is it not "we must keep the commandments AND obtain forgiveness"?

What is repentance if it is not casting aside the ways of disobedience and walking wholly in the commandments?

While all men, saving Christ alone, have sinned, and indeed all must have grace, the commandments must always be kept, correct?
Because, if we keep the commandments we don't need forgiveness. But sure, AND sorta works since in practice we will always be mixing both.

We must always keep the commandments or obtain forgiveness.
Yod wrote:Is it fair to say that those who claim that keeping the commandments is impossible are not keeping the commandments?
Er... we're getting hung up on semantics, which is easy for me to do. But most people saying it's impossible, will not claim that it's OK to break commandments. They just mean we all need forgiveness sometimes. (some of us need it pretty regularly) Or so I'm willing to suppose.

But what I will say is this: relying on repentance solely, without progressing in the commandments, is a sign that the person has no real love for God and will fail to obtain grace.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

No semantics.

If someone says keeping the commandments is impossible, they are only saying they, themselves, find it impossible to keep them, and therefore they, themselves, do not keep them.

And if they don't keep the commandments, we had ought not give any weight to their words, right? That is, we should not trust them in anything they say pertaining to the Gospel.

I mean, the scriptures say this.
Mosiah 23:14 And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote:
Finrock wrote:
Yod wrote:
Finrock wrote:
You should know the answer to this yourself. But answered in my previous post.

-Finrock
Not that I can see. Perhaps you could clarify your answer?
All laws and prophets hang on Love. A carnal/natural man doesn't/cannot have Charity. Your nature must be changed. How does a natural man change his nature? He can't, impossible for him to do it. Can't keep the commandments. But, God provides a way for us to have Charity, because He said we should. God tells us I can and will change your nature from carnal to spiritual because of mercy and through grace, if you want me to.

He says, I give you this gift of Charity, freely. When you are ready to receive it you will receive it. Those with experience have told us that we be ready to receive it when we have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Just means we are ready to surrender our pride and the natural man so that we can be changed so that we can be Love. Since all the law and all the prophets hang on love, we have fulfilled and obeyed all of the commandments when we have obtained Charity. Charity is a gift from God that is received by those ready to receive it. It is available and possible only through the merits and grace of Jesus Christ. Only God can change our natures so that we can be filled with His Love. We learn all of these things from the scriptures.

That answers all of your questions. May I now suggest that you don't just make this an intellectual pursuit but that you earnestly ask God rather than trying to understand my ramblings.

-Finrock
While you may be responding to my questions, you aren't actually answering them. Your suggestion assumes things which may not be the case, as do your responses.

He that Loveth hath fulfilled the law, as it is written; what is this law which those that Love have fulfilled?

Or have you never considered the reason that the scriptures cannot be reduced to the last two verses in Moroni 7 is because the rest of the words matter?
I did in fact actually answer all of your questions, completely; even why the rest of the words matter. You just aren't accepting the answers, can't see it, are blind to it, the answers are not what you want to hear, what you like, or whatever. Cool. At this point, don't waste your time with me, get your answers from God and then you'll know.

This is what I know: Everything reduces down to Charity. God is Love.

-Finrock

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

Finrock wrote:
I did in fact actually answer all of your questions, completely; even why the rest of the words matter. You just aren't accepting the answers, can't see it, are blind to it, the answers are not what you want to hear, what you like, or whatever. Cool. At this point, don't waste your time with me, get your answers from God and then you'll know.

This is what I know: Everything reduces down to Charity. God is Love.

-Finrock
You responded, but have not answered.

Does everyone who asks a question seek the answer to it?

If everything reduces down to charity, then whence the rest of the words? Even the rest of Moroni 7?

Or have you indeed come unto Christ, being eyewitness, and have entered into the kingdom of heaven, being brought through the veil, and speak with the tongue of angels, being right this second holy and without spot, possessed of the Holy Ghost?

If not, then it seems perhaps my questions might be more relevant to your life than you have yet considered. Why is it you don't take your own advice about inquiring of God about others' words?

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

Moroni 7:12-13

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
What does it mean "to serve [God]?"

It matters.
Mosiah 5:12-15
12 I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you.

13 For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?

14 And again, doth a man take an @#$ which belongeth to his neighbor, and keep him? I say unto you, Nay; he will not even suffer that he shall feed among his flocks, but will drive him away, and cast him out. I say unto you, that even so shall it be among you if ye know not the name by which ye are called.

15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Do the Ten Commandments Still Apply?

Post by Yod »

And what does it mean to know God?
John 14
15 ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
You love Jesus if, and only if, you keep his commandments. And if we do so, he will come to us, and we shall know him.
Doctrine and Covenants 130:3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.
Therefore, what follows here is literal.
D&C 132
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
Doctrine and Covenants 42:29 If thou lovest me thou shalt serve me and keep all my commandments.

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