Does Believing Mean Obeying?

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Yod
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Compare Finrock's counsel to devalue the scriptures with Joseph Smith's counsel.
We take the sacred writings into our hands, and admit that they were given by direct inspiration for the good of man. We believe that God condescended to speak from the heavens and declare His will concerning the human family, to give them just and holy laws, to regulate their conduct, and guide them in a direct way, that in due time He might take them to Himself, and make them joint heirs with His Son. But when this fact is admitted, that the immediate will of heaven is contained in the Scriptures, are we not bound as rational creatures to live in accordance to all its precepts? Will the mere admission, that this is the will of heaven ever benefit us if we do not comply with all its teachings? Do we not offer violence to the Supreme Intelligence of heaven, when we admit the truth of its teachings, and do not obey them? Do we not descend below our own knowledge, and the better wisdom which heaven has endowed us with, by such a course of conduct? For these reasons, if we have direct revelations given us from heaven, surely those revelations were never given to be trifled with, without the trifler's incurring displeasure and vengeance upon his own head, if there is any justice in heaven; and that there is must be admitted by every individual who admits the truth and force of God's teachings, His blessings and cursings, as contained in the sacred volume. - Joseph Smith
And this counsel seems pointed.
Mosiah 23:14 And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.

Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:21 pm
Finrock wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:06 pm Scriptures are the recorded revelations of fallible men as they were given to them by the Holy Ghost.

But even the scriptures contain errors and examples of the folly of men.

Although it is wise to pay attention and to think and ponder about what past prophets have taught and said, it still is a bad idea to put too much stock into their words, their notions, and their teachings.
Just to make clear Finrock's target.
In the end obtain and retain the Holy Spirit and do what the Spirit tells you to do. We can trust in the Holy Ghost completely.

-Finrock
[N]othing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. - Joseph Smith
True.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:29 pm Compare Finrock's counsel to devalue the scriptures with Joseph Smith's counsel.
We take the sacred writings into our hands, and admit that they were given by direct inspiration for the good of man. We believe that God condescended to speak from the heavens and declare His will concerning the human family, to give them just and holy laws, to regulate their conduct, and guide them in a direct way, that in due time He might take them to Himself, and make them joint heirs with His Son. But when this fact is admitted, that the immediate will of heaven is contained in the Scriptures, are we not bound as rational creatures to live in accordance to all its precepts? Will the mere admission, that this is the will of heaven ever benefit us if we do not comply with all its teachings? Do we not offer violence to the Supreme Intelligence of heaven, when we admit the truth of its teachings, and do not obey them? Do we not descend below our own knowledge, and the better wisdom which heaven has endowed us with, by such a course of conduct? For these reasons, if we have direct revelations given us from heaven, surely those revelations were never given to be trifled with, without the trifler's incurring displeasure and vengeance upon his own head, if there is any justice in heaven; and that there is must be admitted by every individual who admits the truth and force of God's teachings, His blessings and cursings, as contained in the sacred volume. - Joseph Smith
And this counsel seems pointed.
Mosiah 23:14 And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.
The idea is not to devalue scriptures but to recognize that even they contain errors and have not been handed to us unmolested. Further comments and ideas and teachings of past prophets, like the uncanonized quotes from Joseph Smith should not be treated as scripture and we should not put too much stock in to them. Not no stock, or much stock, but too much stock.

The best guide is the Holy Ghost, which will allow is to understand the words, notions, and ideas found in the scriptures as they were intended and as they apply to us perfectly, without any error.

-Finrock

Yod
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Finrock wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:40 pmThe idea is not to devalue scriptures...
So I'm wrong...
...but to recognize that even they contain errors and have not been handed to us unmolested.
And I'm right.
Further comments and ideas and teachings of past prophets, like the uncanonized quotes from Joseph Smith should not be treated as scripture and we should not put too much stock in to them. Not no stock, or much stock, but too much stock.
And the devaluing of the holy prophets continues. Canonization, of course, is not a determination of truth, and lack of canonization does not indicate falsity. Each man should put as much stock into true prophets' words as they see fit, of course, for that is their agency. It is instructive to contrast Finrock's teachings about scripture with those of one who actually entered into heaven, and brought others along with him - namely, Joseph Smith, who knocked and was opened unto by God.

Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:46 pm
Finrock wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:40 pmThe idea is not to devalue scriptures...
So I'm wrong...
...but to recognize that even they contain errors and have not been handed to us unmolested.
And I'm right.
Further comments and ideas and teachings of past prophets, like the uncanonized quotes from Joseph Smith should not be treated as scripture and we should not put too much stock in to them. Not no stock, or much stock, but too much stock.
And the devaluing of the holy prophets continues. Canonization, of course, is not a determination of truth, and lack of canonization does not indicate falsity. Each man should put as much stock into true prophets' words as they see fit, of course, for that is their agency. It is instructive to contrast Finrock's teachings about scripture with those of one who actually entered into heaven, and brought others along with him - namely, Joseph Smith, who knocked and was opened unto by God.
Do you believe scriptures are inerrant and we have them exactly as the the Spirit originally dictated, unmolested?

For sure, as far as truth is concerned. I've read many things that are not in the canonized scriptures that are true. But, as a whole I put more stock in standard works than I do other words. In each case it is the Spirit that matters most. Scriptures were written by the power of the Holy Ghost and it requires that Spirit to discern them correctly. The Spirit will also fill in the gaps introduced by errors of men or parts changed or left out over time.

-Finrock

Yod
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Open up a thread and establish the erroneous character of the teachings and writings of the holy prophets if you wish, and demonstrate how they have been handed to us molested.

As for me, presently I don't feel a need to dwell on the alleged imperfections in that which we believe to be the word of God.

Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

Okay, well, Joseph Smith said that we believe the Bible is true as far as it is translated correctly. He also said, and I papaphrase, that when the Bible was written originally it was pure but then it went through people's hands and things were changed, taken out,in short molested.

Honestly, the same can be said of the Book of Mormon in many respects, though I believe it is essentially pure. The D&C has bee significantly altered and parts taken out, like the Lectures on Faith.

I think you recognize this too so we are in agreement on devaluing the scriptures. Unless, of course you think they are inerrant, then my speculation is wrong.

My main point though, was not to devalue the scriptures. They have the value they have and that doesn't change unless they themselves are changed. My main point though, is that true scriptures are those things that have come from the Holy Spirit and to properly discern one must have the Spirit. True prophets speak by the power of the Holy Ghost and to discern a true prophet requires that one have the Holy Ghost as well. I will listen and obey to any true prophet and I will hearken to and believe any true scripture. The Spirit matters most.

-Finrock

Yod
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Your point indeed was to devalue the scriptures. You said it outright, couched even as it was in rhetorical qualifiers such as "too much."

And the spirit of God, of course, which gives us understanding of the scriptures, is obtained by keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ - that is, obeying them, not merely paying lip service to them, nor substituting other teachings or commandments in their place.

And the commandments of Jesus Christ are contained in the scriptures which you have endeavored to devalue without actually putting any effort into establishing the erroneous character of the teachings of the holy prophets.

Which brings us back to the topic of the thread.

freedomforall
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

Finrock wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:06 pm We should not put our trust in the arm of flesh, not even prophets. Scriptures are the recorded revelations of fallible men as they were given to them by the Holy Ghost. They provide a guide, examples, and testimonies of how God operates in people's lives. But, there is no substitute of getting the Holy Ghost as your guide and following the directions and commandments given to you by the Holy Spirit. Don't trust any man or woman to lead you or to guide you or to be able to provide you with what only God can give. But even the scriptures contain errors and examples of the folly of men. It takes the spirit to be able discern which parts apply and which parts do not or which parts are from the spirit and which parts are just the mistakes, errors, and philosophies of men. Although it is wise to pay attention and to think and ponder about what past prophets have taught and said, it still is a bad idea to put too much stock into their words, their notions, and their teachings.

All the law and the prophets hang on two commandments. Love God and love others as yourself. We must pray with all the energy of out hearts to be filled with this type of love. Being filled with love is the same as being filled with the spirit.

Ultimately we must be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and receive the Holy Ghost. The conditions for this are having a broken heart and a contrite spirit. This is what the scriptures say and what I know by personal experience. This event fufils the gospel of Jesus Christ although it is not the whole of the plan of happiness of the Father, but it does place us on the path by which we can then obtain and keep other promises.

In the end obtain and retain the Holy Spirit and do what the Spirit tells you to do. We can trust in the Holy Ghost completely.

-Finrock
Guess again. Scriptures do not support this claim.

2 Nephi 28:31
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save (except) their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:36
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

D&C 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

Please reconsider your claim. Personal opinions are also the arm of flesh, and must be rejected by those who believe scripture.

Now lets read a few verses and realize just what the true pecking order is:

D&C 84
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
.............................................................................................................................................
So he who rejects the prophets also reject the Holy Ghost, of whom, bears witness of the Father and Son, and all truth in scripture, such as D&C 112:20 above.

freedomforall
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

Finrock wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:19 pm 2 Nephi 9 also says that to be learned is good if one hearkens to the counsels of God. We are also commanded to seek wisdom and learning from the best books, and to

"obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion.”

The condition for this learning is for the salvation of Zion. Much in the same way we may seek for riches if we so desire...

"18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted."

-Finrock
See the presented dichotomy containing two opposing views, 1, to not heed the prophets, and 2, to receive counsel, per D&C 112:20? For the body of church membership, just where does this counsel come through and delivered to us for our instruction and any further doctrine?

freedomforall
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

Yod wrote:Which brings us back to the topic of the thread.
Define obey.

To whom do we show obedience?

Is paying heed to our prophets an act of obedience? Why? How?

Did Jesus learn obedience through the things in which he suffered?

Is hungering and thirsting after righteousness a desire to obey? Why? How?

What is indicated by the words of Jesus, when he said:

2 Nephi 27:25
25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men— ?

Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 4:38 pm Your point indeed was to devalue the scriptures. You said it outright, couched even as it was in rhetorical qualifiers such as "too much."
My main point was not to devalue the scriptures. When I say point, I mean my conclusion, the message that I am conveying, the main thing that I am focused on communicating at this particular time. That the scriptures (the collection of writings we call the standard works [Book of Mormon, Bible, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price]) are errant is one of my premises, not my conclusion. I present the idea that the scriptures are errant as a given. I offer this premise with the assumption that you agree.

To be clear, the "Too much" was referring to the non-scriptural (the collection of writings not found in the standard works) utterings, teachings, and sayings of the prophets.
Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 4:38 pmAnd the spirit of God, of course, which gives us understanding of the scriptures, is obtained by keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ - that is, obeying them, not merely paying lip service to them, nor substituting other teachings or commandments in their place.
I agree.
Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 4:38 pmAnd the commandments of Jesus Christ are contained in the scriptures which you have endeavored to devalue without actually putting any effort into establishing the erroneous character of the teachings of the holy prophets.
I agree that the commandments of Jesus Christ are contained in the scriptures.

My main point: It takes having the Spirit to properly discern the revelations of the Spirit contained in the scriptures, and it takes having the Spirit in order to discern errors of men found in the scriptures. Without the Spirit, we will not properly understand the scriptures and we may interpret portions of the scriptures incorrectly, or fail in our understanding due to any non-Spirit introduced changes that are also found in the scriptures. "True scripture" (whether found in the standard works or not) is that which has been writing or spoken by the power of the Holy Ghost. Good to have the Spirit and trust completely in the Spirit.

-Finrock

Yod
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Finrock wrote: February 26th, 2017, 7:24 pm
Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 4:38 pm Your point indeed was to devalue the scriptures. You said it outright, couched even as it was in rhetorical qualifiers such as "too much."
My main point was not to devalue the scriptures.
Hmm.
When I say point, I mean my conclusion, the message that I am conveying, the main thing that I am focused on communicating at this particular time. That the scriptures (the collection of writings we call the standard works [Book of Mormon, Bible, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price]) are errant is one of my premises, not my conclusion. I present the idea that the scriptures are errant as a given. I offer this premise with the assumption that you agree.
I have proffered no position on your premise, and repeat that dwelling on alleged imperfections in the received word of God is uninteresting to me, as it has no obvious function in the context of this discussion save it be to justify the devaluation of the scriptures in the eyes of men, even if devaluing the scriptures is not one's main point (petitio principii). Nevertheless you are free to assume whatever you wish.
Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 4:38 pmAnd the spirit of God, of course, which gives us understanding of the scriptures, is obtained by keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ - that is, obeying them, not merely paying lip service to them, nor substituting other teachings or commandments in their place.
I agree.
Is there any other way to obtain or maintain the spirit of God than by observing to do the commandments of Jesus Christ?
And the commandments of Jesus Christ are contained in the scriptures which you have endeavored to devalue without actually putting any effort into establishing the erroneous character of the teachings of the holy prophets.
I agree that the commandments of Jesus Christ are contained in the scriptures.
In the wording as we have them in the scriptures, referring particularly but not necessarily exclusively to JST Luke 6:20-49, JST Matthew 5-7, and 3 Nephi 12-14, or are the texts thereof molested or erroneous on your view, and if so, where and how? I ask so I know what it is you are acknowledging as Christ's commandments.

freedomforall
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

As Christ obeyed his Father in all things, are we any less so as to not follow his example, just because we may not like one or two of his commandments?
What is the purpose of this thread anyway?

As for keeping the commandments:

James 2:10, 11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:31
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

So it matters not which of the commandments one breaks, if not repented of, he will not dwell with God.

freedomforall
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

To be humble, or not to be humble...that's the question!

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

I haven't read all of the JST references you site. I'm pretty sure I acknowledge them as Christ's commandments, but I'd like to read them all so I can give an honest answer and to give the Spirit an opportunity to witness or say anything to me if it does.

The 3 Nephi references I acknowledge as the commandments of Christ.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 8:06 pm Is there any other way to obtain or maintain the spirit of God than by observing to do the commandments of Jesus Christ?
How we obtain the spirit of God is given in 3 Nephi 9, 3 Nehip 11, and other places, but, obtaining the spirit of God involves this:
3 Nephi 9:20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
-Finrock

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gclayjr
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by gclayjr »

Finrock,
Similarly, a person who is merely sorry to be soiled by sin will sin again in the next high wind. The susceptibility to repetition continues until the tree has been strengthened.

When a person has gone through the process that results in what the scriptures call “a broken heart and a contrite spirit,” the Savior does more than cleanse that person from sin. He gives him or her new strength. That strengthening is essential for us to realize the purpose of the cleansing, which is to return to our Heavenly Father. To be admitted to His presence, we must be more than clean. We must also be changed from a morally weak person who has sinned into a strong person with the spiritual stature to dwell in the presence of God. We must, as the scripture says, become “a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord” (Mosiah 3:19). This is what the scripture means in its explanation that a person who has repented of his sins will forsake them. Forsaking sins is more than resolving not to repeat them. Forsaking involves a fundamental change in the individual.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/04/the- ... h?lang=eng

Certainly you need a "broken heart and a contrite spirit", but that is not a get out of jail free card for sinning or not keeping the commandments, in fact you must strive to keep the commandments to HAVE a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Regards,

George Clay

Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

Yod wrote: February 26th, 2017, 8:06 pm Is there any other way to obtain or maintain the spirit of God than by observing to do the commandments of Jesus Christ?
No.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

gclayjr wrote: February 28th, 2017, 10:18 am Finrock,
Similarly, a person who is merely sorry to be soiled by sin will sin again in the next high wind. The susceptibility to repetition continues until the tree has been strengthened.

When a person has gone through the process that results in what the scriptures call “a broken heart and a contrite spirit,” the Savior does more than cleanse that person from sin. He gives him or her new strength. That strengthening is essential for us to realize the purpose of the cleansing, which is to return to our Heavenly Father. To be admitted to His presence, we must be more than clean. We must also be changed from a morally weak person who has sinned into a strong person with the spiritual stature to dwell in the presence of God. We must, as the scripture says, become “a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord” (Mosiah 3:19). This is what the scripture means in its explanation that a person who has repented of his sins will forsake them. Forsaking sins is more than resolving not to repeat them. Forsaking involves a fundamental change in the individual.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/04/the- ... h?lang=eng

Certainly you need a "broken heart and a contrite spirit", but that is not a get out of jail free card for sinning or not keeping the commandments, in fact you must strive to keep the commandments to HAVE a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Regards,

George Clay
According to the scripture I provided the commandment given in order to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost is to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. If we have a broken heart and a contrite spirit we will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, because we kept the commandment.

-Finrock

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gclayjr
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by gclayjr »

Finrock,
According to the scripture I provided the commandment given in order to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost is to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. If we have a broken heart and a contrite spirit we will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, because we kept the commandment.
My apology. I interpreted your response to the question "Does believing mean obeying?" - "You need a broken heart and a contrite spirit" as being something that you needed instead of obeying.

I agree completely with your further explanations.

Regards,

George Clay

Lizzy60
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Lizzy60 »

freedomforall wrote: February 26th, 2017, 10:44 pm To be humble, or not to be humble...that's the question!

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Last Sunday in Gospel Doctrine class, a woman commented that "other" Christian religions believe that all one has to do is accept Christ as the Savior, and that we are so blessed that we know more than them, and that we actually do the things God wants, like paying tithing, keeping the word of wisdom, fasting, and so on, so that we will be in the celestial kingdom while these "others" will only be in a lower kingdom, unless they find the LDS church and learn that works are important, not just believing in Christ.
I cringed, hoping there were no visitors in class.

larsenb
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by larsenb »

Referring to the title of this thread, my answer would be nope . . . which to my limited understanding should be obvious.

For me, faith is the action part. Believing generally is the first step in stepping out in faith to obey. But stepping out in faith usually leads to belief in something beyond and deeper . . . which would then normally require stepping out in faith again to comply with what you have newly come to believe.

I.e., belief can lead to a take-action faith. This faith can then have the effect of increasing further understanding or belief.

A descending, circular path,

Maybe someone has already taken this position. I didn't read all of the posts.

freedomforall
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Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

Lizzy60 wrote: February 28th, 2017, 12:48 pm
freedomforall wrote: February 26th, 2017, 10:44 pm To be humble, or not to be humble...that's the question!

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Last Sunday in Gospel Doctrine class, a woman commented that "other" Christian religions believe that all one has to do is accept Christ as the Savior, and that we are so blessed that we know more than them, and that we actually do the things God wants, like paying tithing, keeping the word of wisdom, fasting, and so on, so that we will be in the celestial kingdom while these "others" will only be in a lower kingdom, unless they find the LDS church and learn that works are important, not just believing in Christ.
I cringed, hoping there were no visitors in class.
Wow, I guess! She may need a lesson on humility.

Alma 5:27
27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

Helaman 12:7
7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

Gen. 18:27
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

Moses 1:10
10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

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