Does Believing Mean Obeying?

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Mosiah 15:22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection.
This quote is from Abinadi. He seems to be making the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, equivalent to "all those that have kept the commandments of God," and they are the first resurrection.

It seems that to Abinadi, believing in the words of the prophets means obeying their words inasmuch as their words are the commandments of God. Apparently only the commandments of God matter to Abinadi, so if a prophet speaks something other than the commandments of God, their words don't matter (obedience thereto not required).

So:
1. Does believing in the words of the prophets mean obeying their words?
2. And if one does not obey their words, then one does not believe their words?

Abinadi had this to say also.
Mosiah 15:26-27
26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.

27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.
So, if one knows the commandments of God, and will not keep them, and dies in one's sins - and, remember, James 2:10 says that to offend in one point is to be guilty of the whole law (and James 2:9 says applying double standards to people is such an offense) - then one has no part in the first resurrection, and cannot be redeemed.

3. Do you agree that if we do not obey all the commandments of God which come by the words of the prophets that we cannot be redeemed and shall not merit the first resurrection?
4. Do you agree that if we obey all the commandments of God which come by the words of the prophets that we will merit the first resurrection?

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by brianj »

1. No.
2. No.
I have known people who seem to acquire a testimony but don't become converted. They have a belief but choose to not obey. We have probably all come across people who believe the church leaders are prophets and that we should get out of debt and acquire food storage, but don't think it's a priority to do so.

3. No. If we lived the commandments perfectly we wouldn't be able to remain on this planet. We will progress after this life (assuming we die prior to the Second Coming), throughout the millennium, and for however long there is between the end of the millennium and the final judgement. We have to want to live the commandments, we have to try to, but as imperfect beings we won't become perfected in this life.

4. Yes, but I don't believe that is the minimum requirement for having part in the first resurrection. I anticipate we have to be living at least a terrestrial law and trying to progress to a celestial law to have part in the first resurrection.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Just to add fuel to the fire, is Nephi right?
1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
It matters.
JST Matt 5:50 Ye are, therefore, commanded to be perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect.
D&C 42:29 If thou lovest me thou shalt serve me and keep all my commandments.

Matchmaker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2266

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Matchmaker »

I think that we LDS can become perfect, or near perfect, in many ways, and are expected to do so in this life, if we desire to have a part in the first resurrection with the hope of one day living with our Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom. Many of God's commandments, if not most, can be obeyed by mortal humans almost 100% of the time. I think He expects us to do better than most of us are.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

So, then, if it is possible to keep them - Nephi says it is, and we believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God - the only remaining question seems to be...

... what are the commandments of God?

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

Yod wrote:So, then, if it is possible to keep them - Nephi says it is, and we believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God - the only remaining question seems to be...

... what are the commandments of God?
2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by marc »

Yes. Believing ought to result in obeying.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=44992&p=769239#p769239" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

freedomforall wrote:
Yod wrote:So, then, if it is possible to keep them - Nephi says it is, and we believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God - the only remaining question seems to be...

... what are the commandments of God?
2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
Joseph Smith wrote:[N]othing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

marc wrote:Yes. Believing ought to result in obeying.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=44992&p=769239#p769239" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It sure seems like it ought to.
Joseph Smith wrote:Any man may believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and be happy in that belief, and yet not obey his commandments, and at last be cut down for disobedience to the Lord's righteous requirements.
Even if not, it seems there is no difference in outcome between the "believer" who does not obey, and the unbeliever, according to Joseph.

Maybe we should be concerned, therefore, to find out what God has commanded, that we may do it and not be cut down at the last.

Dlight
captain of 100
Posts: 143

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Dlight »

To willfully turn against the Lord is a conscious decision one has to make, and would also need to persist into the next life. At the end of the day once we die it will be our ability to live celestial, terrestrial or telestial laws that will qualify us for each kingdom. If you cannot abide the law, you wont be there. I feel like when we die, and the veil is removed, and we remember everything we have forgotten, and have the added new perspective of our lives, each of us will be far short of what we knew before we left, and each of us will be eternally grateful for the atonement. I think a lot more of us will then be ready to accept celestial law, or at least I am hoping that is the case.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Dlight wrote:To willfully turn against the Lord is a conscious decision one has to make, and would also need to persist into the next life.
Abinadi said those who die in their sins cannot be redeemed. Apparently, one only need persist in not doing what God asks of us until the end of this life.

So, instead of talking about stuff which isn't in our control, why not talk about what is in our control - the keeping of the commandments of God, starting with discovering what the commandments of God actually are?

lundbaek
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11123
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by lundbaek »

President Uchtdorf, speaking in the Priesthood session of the October 2009 General Conference, (to us in our day), told us that "For members of the Church, education is not merely a good idea—it’s a commandment. We are to learn -- and he quoted from D&C 88: 79 - "Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad.";"

Do you consider and treat that statement as a commandment of God ?

He stopped there, about 1/2 way thru Verse 79 of D&C 88, although the Conference Report for this talk referenced Verses 79 & 80. So I looked at the rest of Verse 79, which reads "the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms."

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

lundbaek wrote:President Uchtdorf, speaking in the Priesthood session of the October 2009 General Conference, (to us in our day), told us that "For members of the Church, education is not merely a good idea—it’s a commandment. We are to learn -- and he quoted from D&C 88: 79 - "Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad.";"

Do you consider and treat that statement as a commandment of God ?

He stopped there, about 1/2 way thru Verse 79 of D&C 88, although the Conference Report for this talk referenced Verses 79 & 80. So I looked at the rest of Verse 79, which reads "the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms."
Might should have included verses 77 and 78, as well as 74, so we know to whom the Lord is talking.
D&C 88
74 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment...

77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.

78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;

79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—

80 That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.
It seems it was a commandment to a specified set of people, but it does not seem to be speaking of what we would consider a school education nor credentialling or gaining degrees.

But I wonder - do you consider this a commandment of God? It seems oddly on point.
2 Nephi 9
41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever—yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.
So, it would be curious for God to command us to get an education - worldy schooling, credentialling, degrees - when casting aside those things if we have them is a condition for salvation, would you not agree?

lundbaek
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11123
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by lundbaek »

I believe what is included in the D&C is meant for our time -2017. The fact that President Uchtdorf said what he did during aChurch general conference tells me the commandment is meant for time. As for how we attain education on the subjects mentioned in D&C 88:79 and also on D&C 93:53, it appears that is up to us. Analyzing recorded history and current events is no small task. See: http://www.joelskousen.com/hotissues_news.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lundbaek
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11123
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by lundbaek »

I believe what is included in the D&C is meant for our time -2017. The fact that President Uchtdorf said what he did during aChurch general conference tells me the commandment is meant for time. As for how we attain education on the subjects mentioned in D&C 88:79 and also on D&C 93:53, it appears that is up to us. Analyzing recorded history and current events is no small task. See: http://www.joelskousen.com/hotissues_news.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Well, you can believe what you wish, of course, with no objection from me.

Making one's beliefs into commandments of God, however, is a different endeavor.

You did not answer me about the citation to 2 Nephi 9. How do you reconcile your beliefs about education with the Book of Mormon teaching that God despises the learned, and that one must cast one's learning away as a condition of salvation?

And how did "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom" get transfigured into "thou shalt get an education?"

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

I think this points up a problem - distinguishing between what God has in truth commanded, and that which he has not in truth commanded but is accounted and taught by men as though he had commanded it. But this thread is probably not the place to try to solve that problem, though Joseph gives us an idea on how it might be done.
Joseph Smith wrote:We would say to the brethren [the common lay member of the Church, not the officers], seek to know God in your closets, call upon him in the fields. Follow the directions of the Book of Mormon, and pray over, and for your families, your cattle, your flocks, your herds, your corn, and all things that you possess; ask the blessing of God upon all your labors, and everything that you engage in. Be virtuous and pure; be men of integrity and truth; keep the commandments of God; and then you will be able more perfectly to understand the difference between right and wrong--between the things of God and the things of men; and your path will be like that of the just, which shineth brighter and brighter unto the perfect day.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

Yod wrote: February 25th, 2017, 10:42 am
freedomforall wrote:
Yod wrote:So, then, if it is possible to keep them - Nephi says it is, and we believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God - the only remaining question seems to be...

... what are the commandments of God?
2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
Joseph Smith wrote:[N]othing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God.
True

There are people that receive messages from Satan, thinking it is from God and act them out.
Then there are those that know the difference, because they know that "whatsoever is good cometh of God, and whatsoever is evil cometh of the Devil. Once a person accepts this simple truth, they then know exactly what is coming from God. Satan will not tell anyone to do good, this is also fact.

Alma 5:40, 41
40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.
41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

Moroni 10:25
25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.

Moro. 7:12
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

Moses 4:4
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Light of Christ:

Doctrine and Covenants 84:45
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Moroni 7:19
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

And from: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/light ... g&letter=l

The light of Christ is just what the words imply: enlightenment, knowledge, and an uplifting, ennobling, persevering influence that comes upon mankind because of Jesus Christ. For instance, Christ is “the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (D&C 93:2; see John 1:9). The light of Christ fills the “immensity of space” and is the means by which Christ is able to be “in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things.” It “giveth life to all things” and is “the law by which all things are governed.” It is also “the light that quickeneth” man’s understanding (see D&C 88:6–13, 41). In this manner, the light of Christ is related to man’s conscience and tells him right from wrong (Moro. 7:12–19).

The light of Christ should not be confused with the personage of the Holy Ghost, for the light of Christ is not a personage at all. Its influence is preliminary to and preparatory to one’s receiving the Holy Ghost. The light of Christ will lead the honest soul who “hearkeneth to the voice” to find the true gospel and the true Church and thereby receive the Holy Ghost (see D&C 84:46–48). Additional references are Alma 19:6; 26:3; D&C 20:27.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by freedomforall »

Yod wrote: February 25th, 2017, 2:40 pm Well, you can believe what you wish, of course, with no objection from me.

Making one's beliefs into commandments of God, however, is a different endeavor.

You did not answer me about the citation to 2 Nephi 9. How do you reconcile your beliefs about education with the Book of Mormon teaching that God despises the learned, and that one must cast one's learning away as a condition of salvation?

And how did "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom" get transfigured into "thou shalt get an education?"
He does not despise the learned as a whole. He despises the learned that are puffed with pride and having things of the world, and then bragging to others how smart he is and how much stuff he has. We have to put this idea into its proper context in order to get correct conclusions.

Where does it say to cast away one's education?

Read this:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:19
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

D&C 90:15
15 And set in order the churches, and study and learn, and become acquainted with all good books, and with languages, tongues, and people.

Having posted these, I still think that God takes into consideration those with learning impairments, like ADD, or OCD, anything that hampers the mind from learning enough to earn a high GPA and a sharp mind with rapid recall.

I, for one, did not attend College, didn't want to due to lack of confidence and fear of failure. However, years later I took a home study, writing course for children's books. The course helped me greatly in learning English and punctuation, not real good, but much, much better.
I still do not like working with numbers and I still don't know the times tables. I figure Calculus is for those wanting to reinvent gravity, or how to fly around on a hover board. I have no interest in it, whatsoever.
Yet I have read scriptures and gained a rather nice education when it comes to the word of God...still learning too...so I hope Father takes this into account for the lack of other subjects i failed at in school.

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

freedomforall wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:42 am Where does it say to cast away one's education?
Here.
2 Nephi 9:42
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.
Remember - you can't cast away actual knowledge, but you can cast away credentials and degrees, the acquisition of which credentials and degrees is the entire point of modern education, ie, "learning" (as Nibley put it, quoting someone else, "the only reason anyone goes to school is to increase their earning power"), and you can cast away false beliefs masquerading as knowledge gained from such learning.

lundbaek
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11123
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by lundbaek »

I think there is a big difference between "the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea" and those who follow the admonitions of the scriptures and latter-day prophets and apostles to obtain a knowledge of history, current events, governments, countries, the sciences, mathematics, economics, etc

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Well, this can perhaps be settled.

"Whoso knocketh, to him will he open." What does this mean?

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

We should not put our trust in the arm of flesh, not even prophets. Scriptures are the recorded revelations of fallible men as they were given to them by the Holy Ghost. They provide a guide, examples, and testimonies of how God operates in people's lives. But, there is no substitute of getting the Holy Ghost as your guide and following the directions and commandments given to you by the Holy Spirit. Don't trust any man or woman to lead you or to guide you or to be able to provide you with what only God can give. But even the scriptures contain errors and examples of the folly of men. It takes the spirit to be able discern which parts apply and which parts do not or which parts are from the spirit and which parts are just the mistakes, errors, and philosophies of men. Although it is wise to pay attention and to think and ponder about what past prophets have taught and said, it still is a bad idea to put too much stock into their words, their notions, and their teachings.

All the law and the prophets hang on two commandments. Love God and love others as yourself. We must pray with all the energy of out hearts to be filled with this type of love. Being filled with love is the same as being filled with the spirit.

Ultimately we must be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and receive the Holy Ghost. The conditions for this are having a broken heart and a contrite spirit. This is what the scriptures say and what I know by personal experience. This event fufils the gospel of Jesus Christ although it is not the whole of the plan of happiness of the Father, but it does place us on the path by which we can then obtain and keep other promises.

In the end obtain and retain the Holy Spirit and do what the Spirit tells you to do. We can trust in the Holy Ghost completely.

-Finrock

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Finrock »

2 Nephi 9 also says that to be learned is good if one hearkens to the counsels of God. We are also commanded to seek wisdom and learning from the best books, and to

"obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion.”

The condition for this learning is for the salvation of Zion. Much in the same way we may seek for riches if we so desire...

"18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted."

-Finrock

Yod
captain of 100
Posts: 282

Re: Does Believing Mean Obeying?

Post by Yod »

Finrock wrote: February 26th, 2017, 3:06 pm Scriptures are the recorded revelations of fallible men as they were given to them by the Holy Ghost.

But even the scriptures contain errors and examples of the folly of men.

Although it is wise to pay attention and to think and ponder about what past prophets have taught and said, it still is a bad idea to put too much stock into their words, their notions, and their teachings.
Just to make clear Finrock's target.
In the end obtain and retain the Holy Spirit and do what the Spirit tells you to do. We can trust in the Holy Ghost completely.

-Finrock
[N]othing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. - Joseph Smith

Post Reply