What were God's sins?

[Robin Hood]

This thread is based on faulty theology from the outset, in my view.
God is sinless and would cease to be God if he sinned.

The only person to whom the statement "as man is God once was, and as God is man may become" applies is Jesus Christ.

What is my point? I have revealed info stating that those who are exalted become as much of a God as Father is.
I have shown you scripture that states we are heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ, thus, becoming as God is.

This is my point.

I don't care one iota what God's sins were if any. I do ask you just how God knows all things without, perhaps, experiencing sin and its associated guilt and shame.
Even though Christ/Jehovah never sinned once, notta, nil, never or one little bit...he experienced the pain, guilt and shame, by proxy, every conceivable sin committed by every person on earth from Adam to the last person ever to be born on this earth for certain, and maybe other worlds.

My question was serious. What was your point in quoting scriptures which indicate that God will exalt us? I do not have an issue with that concept, though I don't think exaltation is quite what some people think it is.
None of the scriptures you have repeatedly quoted say anything about God the Father once being a mortal man.
That, I believe, is the main difference between us on this subject.

[freedomforall]

It is often asked, "do we remember our remitted sins after death?"

I wrote to Brother Stephen E. Robinson concerning this question. He taught religion classes at Brigham Young University, where he was also chairman of the Department of Ancient Scripture. He has at least five articles in the Ensign magazine. He has written many books including “Are Mormons Christian?”, “Believing Christ”, “Following Christ” and “The Testament of Adam”. He wrote back to me this:

“If God knows everything (2 Nephi 9:20, Moses 1:6, D&C 38:2), that must include any mistakes he may have made as a mortal being.  And if we are exalted and become as God now is, we must also know all things—including our own mortal history, complete with our former sins.  Memory is eternal; guilt is not.  If there is anything we remain ignorant of in eternity, we are not as God is, and have not been exalted”.

In the book, “Answers to Gospel Questions” by Joseph Fielding Smith, the statement is made on pages 42-43 as follows: “Matter cannot be destroyed. A body may be burned in the furnace or at the stake; it may be eaten by sharks in the great ocean, or in some other manner be consumed, but we have the assurance through the teachings of our Redeemer that resurrection will be universal and not one soul shall be forgotten and his body left in the grave. We are assured that the particles, all that are essential to the body, will be brought back again to their proper places”…. ‘moreover, memory will likewise be maintained . . ..’

[Silver Pie]

The problem is the provenance of the King Follett discourse is questionable.
It is not scripture and has never been accepted as such.

We cannot base our understanding of the doctrines of salvation on hearsay.

True, about not basing our understanding on hearsay, but I thought the discourse that we have came from several men who took notes of what Joseph said, and their notes pretty much agreed with each other.

It sure would have been nice to have had internet and recording ability in Joseph's day. I think what we have now would be a lot more credible if we knew exactly what he said in the different sermons he gave.

[LDS Physician]

There are now two different things to discuss:
1) Was God once a mortal man like us? Robin Hood does not believe this. Most LDS will disagree with him.
2) Was a devil necessary? D&C 29:39 says so. I have hard time understanding this. I understand that opposition is necessary. It is necessary for us to live a mortal life out of the presence of God, which allows the possibility of sinning. However, do we really need a personal evil? According to my understanding there was no evil being tempting Lucifer in the pre-existence and yet he and others choose to rebel.

I think you sum it up well inho.
1. I do believe God was once a mortal man; we can read all about him and his mortal life in the gospels.
2. A devil is not necessary. If so, all those born during the millenium are doomed.

Okay, Robin Hood, since you got everything figured out without accepting scripture, why then, is God going to release Satan at the end of the Millennium? Just for he fun of it? Why is there going to be one of the biggest battles in the history of the world called Gog and Magog after the Millennium?
Never, have I stated that sin is necessary. This is your conclusion, not mine. I did post scripture, however, that says temptation is necessary. Therefore, Satan is necessary. We choose which one to obey every single day of our lives, all day long, 24/7.

I don't know if God sinned. But where did he get his body of flesh and bones?

And if you are lucky enough to become a God creating your own worlds and people to inhabit them as we hear about so much...are you going to be able to tell them that you didn't sin, just once? I do not think so. Is that going to make you any less qualified to become a God? No, not if you believe in the atonement of Christ which renders the penitent clean, spotless, pure and white. Otherwise, what do you believe in? Why spend each day trying to live right if there isn't some hope for a better world?

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

And what about the billions who will be born, live and "die", during the millenium, with no devil around to tempt them? Clearly, according to your theory these people will have a significant disadvantage, complicated further by the the improvement in the natural condition of the earth (less opposition) and the presence of God himself. Poor souls!

You accuse me of ignoring the scriptures. Please tell me which scriptures indicate that we will become God and "create our own worlds and people to inhabit them".

You ask "where did (God) get his body of flesh and bones?". The truth is, we don't know. He hasn't said. We know that our body is only in the image of his. We do not know that his body is the result of mortality.
We would do well to quit trying to read between the lines.

Have you read the King Follett discourse by the prophet Joseph Smith? It is quite impressive and makes this topic well-defined. Here is just one snippet:

"I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

I don't know how more plain that you can say it...

[Robin Hood]

I think you sum it up well inho.
1. I do believe God was once a mortal man; we can read all about him and his mortal life in the gospels.
2. A devil is not necessary. If so, all those born during the millenium are doomed.

Okay, Robin Hood, since you got everything figured out without accepting scripture, why then, is God going to release Satan at the end of the Millennium? Just for he fun of it? Why is there going to be one of the biggest battles in the history of the world called Gog and Magog after the Millennium?
Never, have I stated that sin is necessary. This is your conclusion, not mine. I did post scripture, however, that says temptation is necessary. Therefore, Satan is necessary. We choose which one to obey every single day of our lives, all day long, 24/7.

I don't know if God sinned. But where did he get his body of flesh and bones?

And if you are lucky enough to become a God creating your own worlds and people to inhabit them as we hear about so much...are you going to be able to tell them that you didn't sin, just once? I do not think so. Is that going to make you any less qualified to become a God? No, not if you believe in the atonement of Christ which renders the penitent clean, spotless, pure and white. Otherwise, what do you believe in? Why spend each day trying to live right if there isn't some hope for a better world?

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

And what about the billions who will be born, live and "die", during the millenium, with no devil around to tempt them? Clearly, according to your theory these people will have a significant disadvantage, complicated further by the the improvement in the natural condition of the earth (less opposition) and the presence of God himself. Poor souls!

You accuse me of ignoring the scriptures. Please tell me which scriptures indicate that we will become God and "create our own worlds and people to inhabit them".

You ask "where did (God) get his body of flesh and bones?". The truth is, we don't know. He hasn't said. We know that our body is only in the image of his. We do not know that his body is the result of mortality.
We would do well to quit trying to read between the lines.

Have you read the King Follett discourse by the prophet Joseph Smith? It is quite impressive and makes this topic well-defined. Here is just one snippet:

"I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

I don't know how more plain that you can say it...

Jesus Christ is God.
This discourse makes sense if every time we read "God" we assume it means Jesus Cnrist; whom we know was once a man.

[LDS Physician]

Jesus Christ and HF are two separate individuals. It is at the core of what the prophets have taught and clearly stated in the scriptures.

Just one for instance: read about Jesus's baptism in Matthew. While he was standing in the water, a voice from heaven declared "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This was not ventriloquism...it was HF speaking from a different place than his Son. Two separate individuals.

[Thinker]

Jesus Christ and HF are two separate individuals. It is at the core of what the prophets have taught and clearly stated in the scriptures.

Just one for instance: read about Jesus's baptism in Matthew. While he was standing in the water, a voice from heaven declared "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This was not ventriloquism...it was HF speaking from a different place than his Son. Two separate individuals.

As above so below. It does make sense, and I love the idea of having unconditionally loving Heavenly Parents who I pray to regularly and will probably my entire life. Still, how I understand them is changing, and I think, ideally we progress eternally.

I suppose there are different ways to interpret scriptures - and which to focus on...
"And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me."
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither shall they say, lo here or lo there, for behold the kingdom of God is within you."

Simple but paradoxical too - God cannot be experienced outside of me or you - we each have spiritual experiences of God within us - pretty undeniable fact. God is I AM THAT I AM... God is consciousness aware of consciousness again - all within each of us - and yet God is in all!

At a lower level of understanding, I can see the need to personify God - to fit "Him" into our image. But if you really believe that God is infinite, all knowing, all powerful, not limited - but everywhere (omnipresent), then God cannot be limited to a body like us. God is in all! God is the life - the energy that permeates everything! This requires getting beyond concrete thinking and considering not only abstract, but also realizing there is so much about God (ultimate love based on higher truth) that we have yet to learn so much about! What if I realize God is literally within me - and within each person I come across? How would I esteem myself and them differently?

[Thinker]

According to (some) theology, God was a regular, ordinary everyday man. But the church is trying to somewhat disavow that now, so there's that. In any case, what was it like when God was just a man? What were his sins?

Who is God - let's define God - or at least try. Some (like in Islam) give about 100 definitions, one being there are not enough or the right words to describe God. Still, I think it's good to try to get a good grasp of what we're discussing.

I think there are a few ways to consider God:

• 1) Creator of Intelligent Design. Even Atheist Stephen Hawking defined intelligence as "ability to adapt to change" and obviously, this world is full of that. Look up into the sky or at subatomic particles (like the god particle) and you realize this universe if filled with intelligence and not given by science, but by something much bigger. And we were created not just by a father. ;)

• 2) "God is love." -1John4 God is like a web that connects us all. How we were created was a form of love - everything we do and that is done is based on love - granted, often misguided love, but still, we each do what we do because we think it's best, otherwise we wouldn't do it. This is some degree of God, but ultimately, God is pure love based on pure truth - something we don't master but it's good to strive for it.

• 3) God is I AM THAT I AM. God is that consciousness within us that realizes that there is a lower and higher degree of consciousness (spirit). I believe (& Leibniz seems to imply) that we were intelligences before life - and as the Quantum Mind theory suggests, it is likely that our consciousnesses created our brains/bodies rather than visa versa.

There's a scripture that states, "He is not God of the dead, but God of the living." (Mark 12:27) Part of me wonders if God, as we understand God, is understood in very different ways from other perspectives (like after death). We personify God - make "Him" into our image - because we tend to think in concrete terms and it's easier to relate with things we know. But I imagine that God is much more than we can fathom.

Still, for the sake of discussion...
I will go with the implications like the song, "What if God was one of us."
Sin: incorrect thoughts that produce incorrect motives and actions. Psych-ology is essential to not being damned (held back) by incorrect thoughts, motives and actions. Yet, God sees the necessity of sin - of opposition in all things. God's idea of perfection is much bigger than our short-sighted ideas. Our ideas of sin (like the list you gave) is like saying, "What a stupid bad plant for not having grown up - it's just barely sprouted - how pathetic." That itself is sin - to consider that as God created us (essentially GOoD) is pathetic, when actually, we are works in progress and God sees the big picture. Sin (opposition) helps us learn and grow unlike anything else can. Sin is not evil - the real evil is ignoring or denying sin, which damns us from moving on and learning and improving.

And God is within us and all of us. "God would be doing exactly what you are, if he were in your shoes."

[Robin Hood]

Jesus Christ and HF are two separate individuals. It is at the core of what the prophets have taught and clearly stated in the scriptures.

Just one for instance: read about Jesus's baptism in Matthew. While he was standing in the water, a voice from heaven declared "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This was not ventriloquism...it was HF speaking from a different place than his Son. Two separate individuals.

And yet the "most correct book" (Book of Mormon) clearly teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is "one Eternal God".

[kittycat51]

Sometimes I just shake my head at some of these topics. Dwelling on things like these I believe is a case of looking far beyond the "mark". Maybe I just take the scriptures as doctrine and call it an "end to the conversation in question" when I read things like:

D&C 45:4 "Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified"

To say anything otherwise is conjecture, silly, and almost blasphemes in my mind.

Elder Hales in this month's Ensign quotes "Jesus was the only human being who was perfect, without sin." That's pretty clear in my mind.

[freedomforall]

Jesus Christ and HF are two separate individuals. It is at the core of what the prophets have taught and clearly stated in the scriptures.

Just one for instance: read about Jesus's baptism in Matthew. While he was standing in the water, a voice from heaven declared "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This was not ventriloquism...it was HF speaking from a different place than his Son. Two separate individuals.

As above so below. It does make sense, and I love the idea of having unconditionally loving Heavenly Parents who I pray to regularly and will probably my entire life. Still, how I understand them is changing, and I think, ideally we progress eternally.

I suppose there are different ways to interpret scriptures - and which to focus on...
"And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me."
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither shall they say, lo here or lo there, for behold the kingdom of God is within you."

Simple but paradoxical too - God cannot be experienced outside of me or you - we each have spiritual experiences of God within us - pretty undeniable fact. God is I AM THAT I AM... God is consciousness aware of consciousness again - all within each of us - and yet God is in all!

At a lower level of understanding, I can see the need to personify God - to fit "Him" into our image. But if you really believe that God is infinite, all knowing, all powerful, not limited - but everywhere (omnipresent), then God cannot be limited to a body like us. God is in all! God is the life - the energy that permeates everything! This requires getting beyond concrete thinking and considering not only abstract, but also realizing there is so much about God (ultimate love based on higher truth) that we have yet to learn so much about! What if I realize God is literally within me - and within each person I come across? How would I esteem myself and them differently?

John 14:8,9
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
..........................................................................................................................
Luke 17:21
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

JST
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God has already come unto you.

Many translations read “among” because the pronoun “you” is plural here in Greek.
Thus, "You" is plural...meaning many.
..........................................................................................................................
The following gives us some distinction between Christ/God and His Father/Elohim/God

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
..........................................................................................................................
Jesus Christ = flesh
Jehovah = Father
Jesus...flesh...is subject to his Spirit...Jehovah. They are the very Eternal Father as taught in:

Mosiah 15:1-5
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

[Thinker]

Hi Freedom,
We agree on some - but some I just can't unsee what I've seen. The kingdom of God is definitely within - how could I experience God anywhere else but within me? I know if you get stuck on some traditional thoughts, you'll be led to believe that it must be OUTSIDE you - that you need to keep seeking something "somewhere out there." I'm not suggesting that I or you are God - but we are children of God - and with potential (which used to be heresy). Each of us experience God within us - God's love and energy permeates all life! So it's within that we experience, but God's not limited to us - but is in all.

It took me a while to really get this, so I know I need to be patient with others, but I've found this logically & spiritually to be true.

[freedomforall]

Hi Freedom,
We agree on some - but some I just can't unsee what I've seen. The kingdom of God is definitely within - how could I experience God anywhere else but within me? I know if you get stuck on some traditional thoughts, you'll be led to believe that it must be OUTSIDE you - that you need to keep seeking something "somewhere out there." I'm not suggesting that I or you are God - but we are children of God - and with potential (which used to be heresy). Each of us experience God within us - God's love and energy permeates all life! So it's within that we experience, but God's not limited to us - but is in all.

It took me a while to really get this, so I know I need to be patient with others, but I've found this logically & spiritually to be true.

As the church teaches and is confirmed by many scriptures, it isn't God the Father that is in us all, rather, it is the Holy Ghost. The HG does not have a body so he can be everywhere and in all people that are worthy to have him enter their inner being. For unrighteous people, the HG will not dwell with them as a constant companion.
The Holy Ghost is not the same as the Light of Christ. The Light of Christ is in all people born so they may know right from wrong. A person can choose to do evil as a way of life and lose that light.
The kingdom of God cannot be inside a person. However, members of the church are a part of the Kingdom of God on earth. This is what is meant by Luke 17:21. The people, or members of the church were being told that they were in the kingdom of God, it having come to them.
Those who have the Holy Ghost within them feel joy, peace and comfort as though they were in the kingdom of God in heaven.
If one reads and rereads JST Luke 17:21, they begin to understand the true intent of the scripture.

[Thinker]

As the church teaches and is confirmed by many scriptures, it isn't God the Father that is in us all, rather, it is the Holy Ghost. The HG does not have a body so he can be everywhere and in all people that are worthy to have him enter their inner being. For unrighteous people, the HG will not dwell with them as a constant companion.
The Holy Ghost is not the same as the Light of Christ. The Light of Christ is in all people born so they may know right from wrong. A person can choose to do evil as a way of life and lose that light.
The kingdom of God cannot be inside a person. However, members of the church are a part of the Kingdom of God on earth. This is what is meant by Luke 17:21. The people, or members of the church were being told that they were in the kingdom of God, it having come to them.
Those who have the Holy Ghost within them feel joy, peace and comfort as though they were in the kingdom of God in heaven.
If one reads and rereads JST Luke 17:21, they begin to understand the true intent of the scripture.

Maybe our differences partly come down to words. And you're helping me realize how my beliefs have evolved from that church doctrine. Really, it doesn't matter how we try to analyze things. We're like toddlers arguing over if something is a triangle or a circle in an equation like...



God is so way above us! As Socrates and Moses said, we really know nothing compared to what there is to know! Maybe God is divided and tells someone (Holy Ghost) to do this for Him/Her... but maybe God is paradox - both limited body & unlimited spirit. Who knows? The church, Joseph Smith - you, me - we're all pretty clueless when it comes to what God knows and who and what God actually is.

What is important is our own living - and loving. The greatest commandment is to love - above all! To love others who love us is easy and enjoyable - but to love others who hurt us and make us feel like crap is very difficult, but is a test to make us stronger and more genuinely loving. I realize that I need to work on this. So often, I hold back because I don't want to be rejected or hurt. Boundaries are good and healthy - I've got to care for myself - but I also need to be more proactive in loving - and love without any expectation of being loved back. The ONLY way I can do this is to constantly be turning to God to recharge me - to fill me with God's unconditional love so it's a natural outpouring, not forced or fake.

[freedomforall]

The church, Joseph Smith - you, me - we're all pretty clueless when it comes to what God knows and who and what God actually is.

If we are to become one with God, don't we need to know his character, teachings and thoughts? Christ said he was not here to do his own will but the will of him who sent him. Therefore, Christ must have learned the mind and will of his father in order to do his will.
Christ also said he had to do as the Father did. Therefore, he had to come to know the mind, thoughts and teachings of his Father in order to do the same.

We are told to become as perfect as the Father and Christ are. Therefore we must come to know the character, mannerisms and attributes of Godliness in order to become God-like.

Having said all his, just where, or in other words, what source can we feast upon to learn all these things? Scholars, our own speculations...or the word of God within the panoply of scripture?

We read in the Book of Mormon that many plain and precious parts were removed from the bible over the years, so Joseph Smith took the time to bring back many of these plain and precious truths so we could learn doctrine the way God intended it to be understood. The JST of Matthew does just that. The Book of Mormon reveals many, many of the plain and precious parts of doctrine for our further light and knowledge as well.

Since scripture is of no private interpretation or will of man, it is best to ponder and pray for true doctrine, through the Holy Ghost to be revealed to our mind so we get the understanding God wants us to acquire. Otherwise, how else can we come to know him and his word in its purity?

[Thinker]

Therefore we must come to know the character, mannerisms and attributes of Godliness in order to become God-like.

Having said all his, just where, or in other words, what source can we feast upon to learn all these things? Scholars, our own speculations...or the word of God within the panoply of scripture?

You make a good point, Freedom, but first I want to clarify that scriptures are the writings of imperfect people, NOT God. Nephi even gave that disclaimer - that if you find fault in his writings, remember it's being written by imperfect people like him, so don't blame God for their imperfections. Joseph Smith suggested to search for and take the pearls of wisdom from the scriptures, "take what portion belongs to you" implying that not all of it is necessarily applicable or godly-perfect because they are words of men (not God).

Ok... about your good point...
Yes, I agree that it's GOoD to study God - to try to be more like God. One way I've found to do that is to enjoy nature in solitude, but also to keep a balance - to love self and others, learning line upon line, here a little, there a little. ;)

[freedomforall]

Therefore we must come to know the character, mannerisms and attributes of Godliness in order to become God-like.

Having said all his, just where, or in other words, what source can we feast upon to learn all these things? Scholars, our own speculations...or the word of God within the panoply of scripture?

You make a good point, Freedom, but first I want to clarify that scriptures are the writings of imperfect people, NOT God. Nephi even gave that disclaimer - that if you find fault in his writings, remember it's being written by imperfect people like him, so don't blame God for their imperfections. Joseph Smith suggested to search for and take the pearls of wisdom from the scriptures, "take what portion belongs to you" implying that not all of it is necessarily applicable or godly-perfect because they are words of men (not God).

Ok... about your good point...
Yes, I agree that it's GOoD to study God - to try to be more like God. One way I've found to do that is to enjoy nature in solitude, but also to keep a balance - to love self and others, learning line upon line, here a little, there a little. ;)

Reread my last paragraph above. I made a clear distinction and remedy for the misunderstanding of scripture and how to obtain the word of God in its purity.

But to not read scripture because we fear it to be wrong since man wrote it is a nice way of saying it could be false doctrine so pay little heed to it.
The D&C was all revealed word from God to JS.
Also, it wasn't because the words in the Book of Mormon may or may not be true, rather, it was due to the language of that day that was problematic, so that is why it was brought to light so we could see the problem.

[Thinker]

Freedom,
It's tough to give up what one has prioritized for a long time, but even D&C is not straight from God - it's from Joseph Smith, who wasn't perfect. God commanded to not have other gods before God because it is a HUGE temptation to worship people and their writings.

One more thing I wanted to say, mostly to remind myself... Loving others is the greatest commandment and I want to learn to obey that commandment better. For a while, I have been really pissed at people - for being imperfect. I see through them like I didn't before and I see warts and all & have been really turned off by it. I see how quick people are to try to please others before doing God's will - even when it hurts them or others. I hate seeing unnecessary suffering, but it's part of life, as is imperfection. As my sister's home-teacher told her, "What imperfection hates the most is imperfection."

Partly why I've been so pissed at others is because I haven't forgiven myself - I have the punitive life trap - I learned from my parents & church teachings - shame shame shame - for what? Being human. Being imperfect. It's a tough paradox to embrace - to accept myself as I am - WHILE striving to correct problems and improve. But I need to embrace that - for my own well being as well as so I can love others better.

Another reason why I've been pissed at others is because I've felt hurt by them over & over. I've unrealistically expected poor people (poor in love) to give me what they don't have to give. They don't even have it to give themselves & those they care most about - how can I expect them to give it to me? It's normal though, to expect the unrealistic - to look to others to give what they don't have. As babies we're 100% dependent on the good graces of another to care for us. But I'm an adult now, and I've learned that God is the only one I can trust to love me unconditionally. God is the only one who can give me what I need.

Everything's subjective. I can look at someone and think what an ugly, horrible person... OR... I can look at someone and think what a beautiful, wonderful person. OR... I can see it more realistically as a mix of both. I can see the negative, but focus on the positive. Ultimately, we are children of God - spiritual beings have a human experience, so in the big picture, we are GOoD - all of us- you and me. Through all of the ups and downs, successes & failures, we are trying our best - and progressing little by little and that is beautiful!

[freedomforall]

Freedom, It's tough to give up what one has prioritized for a long time, but even D&C is not straight from God - it's from Joseph Smith, who wasn't perfect. God commanded to not have other gods before God because it is a HUGE temptation to worship people and their writings.

Read the heading to these sections. How many were not given to Joseph Smith via direct revelation from God?
Then can you claim they are only words out of JS's brain, him being imperfect?

I fail to understand your negative stance against the word of God that we are commanded to feast upon.

Yes, love is important, but it is only a part of the equation to getting us home to Father.

We read:

Nephi 31:20
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

1) press forward with a steadfastness in Christ
2) have a perfect brightness of hope
3) have a love of God and of all men
4) press forward
5) feast upon the word of Christ
6) endure to the end
7) Ye shall have eternal life

Jer. 15:16
16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
..........................................................................................................................

So I would say that reading the scriptures and gaining knowledge from imperfect people is still a right thing to engage in. It's a commandment.

[Finrock]

Freedom, It's tough to give up what one has prioritized for a long time, but even D&C is not straight from God - it's from Joseph Smith, who wasn't perfect. God commanded to not have other gods before God because it is a HUGE temptation to worship people and their writings.

Read the heading to these sections. How many were not given to Joseph Smith via direct revelation from God?
Then can you claim they are only words out of JS's brain, him being imperfect?

I fail to understand your negative stance against the word of God that we are commanded to feast upon.

Yes, love is important, but it is only a part of the equation to getting us home to Father.

We read:

Nephi 31:20
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

1) press forward with a steadfastness in Christ
2) have a perfect brightness of hope
3) have a love of God and of all men
4) press forward
5) feast upon the word of Christ
6) endure to the end
7) Ye shall have eternal life

Jer. 15:16
16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
..........................................................................................................................

So I would say that reading the scriptures and gaining knowledge from imperfect people is still a right thing to engage in. It's a commandment.

Feasting upon the words of Christ means listening to the Holy Spirit. Everything that we do and the purpose of all of the commandments is learning how to love correctly or obtaining charity or obtaining the pure love of Christ.

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

Feasting upon the words of Christ means listening to the Holy Spirit. Everything that we do and the purpose of all of the commandments is learning how to love correctly or obtaining charity or obtaining the pure love of Christ.

-Finrock

Is this what Jer 15:16 says?

Is the Holy Ghost going to dwell with someone and dictate every word coming out of scripture to them...when the books are lying on a shelf with a layer of dust on their surface?

It is when we take the time to feast upon scripture that the Holy Ghost is able to confirm in our heart and mind that that which we are reading is true.

Why do the GA's come out often and tell us to read the Book of Mormon?

Why was the membership. as a whole, under condemnation years ago for not reading the BOM?

Where are we going to get even an inkling of an idea of what the pure love of Christ is and how to apply it...if not from scripture?

From: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/03/stud ... d?lang=eng

“Study My Word”

The Savior said that we should “not live by bread alone, but by every word of God” (Luke 4:4). Nephi, too, counseled us to “feast upon the words of Christ” (2 Ne. 32:3).

The Scriptures Are for Our Profit and Learning
Feasting upon the word of God means more than just nibbling at the banquet table. Feasting upon the scriptures means studying the scriptures individually and together as families. It means pondering and praying about what we read. It means using the scriptures as the basis for our teaching, likening the scriptures—their stories and counsel—to our own lives, that they “might be for our profit and learning” (1 Ne. 19:23). It also means using the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon, in our missionary work. Because the scriptures contain the words of Jesus Christ, they are vital in bringing people to a knowledge of the truth.

Feasting denotes pleasure or joy. Feasting upon the word of God means developing a love for the scriptures and for studying them.

Studying the Scriptures Is a Principle with a Promise
The prophets have promised many blessings to those who feast upon the scriptures. President Ezra Taft Benson said that as we study the Book of Mormon we will find greater power to resist temptation, avoid deception, and remain faithful to our covenants and testimonies (see “The Book of Mormon—Keystone of Our Religion,” Ensign, Nov. 1986, 7). President Brigham Young promised: “They who observe the precepts contained in the Scriptures will be just and true and virtuous and peaceable at home and abroad. … Men will make splendid husbands, women excellent wives, and children will be obedient; they will make families happy” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 119–20).

President Marion G. Romney said that as families study the Book of Mormon, “the spirit of reverence will increase; mutual respect and consideration for each other will grow. The spirit of contention will depart. Parents will counsel their children in greater love and wisdom. Children will be more responsive and submissive to the counsel of their parents. Righteousness will increase. Faith, hope, and charity—the pure love of Christ—will abound in our homes and lives, bringing in their wake peace, joy, and happiness” (“The Book of Mormon,” Ensign, May 1980, 67).

With three children under the age of three, Sister Diana Hoffman found little time in her day to read the scriptures. She determined to make scripture study a high priority, hoping the Lord would bless her with the time needed to care for herself, her family, and her home. By getting up earlier and reading while the children were sleeping, she found herself strengthened, able to accomplish all she needed to, and blessed with the companionship of the Holy Ghost. She said: “I have more patience with my children, more understanding and compassion for others, and more love for my husband. I feel at peace, and I am aware of an abundance of blessings in my life. I have a greater awareness of my priorities and a great satisfaction with what I am achieving” (in “Finding Truth in the Book of Mormon,” Ensign, Jan. 1996, 11).

Feasting upon the word of God involves far more than merely reading. We must study eagerly, savoring the truth we find, seeking in humility and obedience “all which [the Lord] shall grant unto the children of men in this generation” (D&C 11:22).

• How can we more fully use the scriptures in our lives?
• How can studying the scriptures help us reflect upon our blessings?

[Finrock]

Feasting upon the words of Christ means listening to the Holy Spirit. Everything that we do and the purpose of all of the commandments is learning how to love correctly or obtaining charity or obtaining the pure love of Christ.

-Finrock

Is this what Jer 15:16 says?

Is the Holy Ghost going to dwell with someone and dictate every word coming out of scripture to them...when the books are lying on a shelf with a layer of dust on their surface?

It is when we take the time to feast upon scripture that the Holy Ghost is able to confirm in our heart and mind that that which we are reading is true.

Why do the GA's come out often and tell us to read the Book of Mormon?

Why was the membership. as a whole, under condemnation years ago for not reading the BOM?

Where are we going to get even an inkling of an idea of what the pure love of Christ is and how to apply it...if not from scripture?

From: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/03/stud ... d?lang=eng

“Study My Word”

The Savior said that we should “not live by bread alone, but by every word of God” (Luke 4:4). Nephi, too, counseled us to “feast upon the words of Christ” (2 Ne. 32:3).

The Scriptures Are for Our Profit and Learning
Feasting upon the word of God means more than just nibbling at the banquet table. Feasting upon the scriptures means studying the scriptures individually and together as families. It means pondering and praying about what we read. It means using the scriptures as the basis for our teaching, likening the scriptures—their stories and counsel—to our own lives, that they “might be for our profit and learning” (1 Ne. 19:23). It also means using the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon, in our missionary work. Because the scriptures contain the words of Jesus Christ, they are vital in bringing people to a knowledge of the truth.

Feasting denotes pleasure or joy. Feasting upon the word of God means developing a love for the scriptures and for studying them.

Studying the Scriptures Is a Principle with a Promise
The prophets have promised many blessings to those who feast upon the scriptures. President Ezra Taft Benson said that as we study the Book of Mormon we will find greater power to resist temptation, avoid deception, and remain faithful to our covenants and testimonies (see “The Book of Mormon—Keystone of Our Religion,” Ensign, Nov. 1986, 7). President Brigham Young promised: “They who observe the precepts contained in the Scriptures will be just and true and virtuous and peaceable at home and abroad. … Men will make splendid husbands, women excellent wives, and children will be obedient; they will make families happy” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 119–20).

President Marion G. Romney said that as families study the Book of Mormon, “the spirit of reverence will increase; mutual respect and consideration for each other will grow. The spirit of contention will depart. Parents will counsel their children in greater love and wisdom. Children will be more responsive and submissive to the counsel of their parents. Righteousness will increase. Faith, hope, and charity—the pure love of Christ—will abound in our homes and lives, bringing in their wake peace, joy, and happiness” (“The Book of Mormon,” Ensign, May 1980, 67).

With three children under the age of three, Sister Diana Hoffman found little time in her day to read the scriptures. She determined to make scripture study a high priority, hoping the Lord would bless her with the time needed to care for herself, her family, and her home. By getting up earlier and reading while the children were sleeping, she found herself strengthened, able to accomplish all she needed to, and blessed with the companionship of the Holy Ghost. She said: “I have more patience with my children, more understanding and compassion for others, and more love for my husband. I feel at peace, and I am aware of an abundance of blessings in my life. I have a greater awareness of my priorities and a great satisfaction with what I am achieving” (in “Finding Truth in the Book of Mormon,” Ensign, Jan. 1996, 11).

Feasting upon the word of God involves far more than merely reading. We must study eagerly, savoring the truth we find, seeking in humility and obedience “all which [the Lord] shall grant unto the children of men in this generation” (D&C 11:22).

• How can we more fully use the scriptures in our lives?
• How can studying the scriptures help us reflect upon our blessings?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost = speaking the words of Christ; Therefore, feasting upon the words of Christ = Feasting upon the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost = speaking the words of Christ; Therefore, feasting upon the words of Christ = Feasting upon the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

D&C 84:85
85 Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man.

Okay, Fin, what does it mean to treasure up the words of life?

Will the Holy Ghost tell you what to say...before, or after...treasuring up the words of life?

Why doesn't the verse read this way.........Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life?

Or should the words "but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life" be left out altogether?

Like:
Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man.

[Finrock]

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost = speaking the words of Christ; Therefore, feasting upon the words of Christ = Feasting upon the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

D&C 84:85
85 Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man.

Okay, Fin, what does it mean to treasure up the words of life?

Will the Holy Ghost tell you what to say...before, or after...treasuring up the words of life?

Why doesn't the verse read this way.........Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life?

Or should the words "but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life" be left out altogether?

Like:
Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man.

Scripture is just thoughts and ideas written down that were given to a person by the power of the Holy Ghost. If it didn't come from the Spirit, then it isn't from God and it isn't really scripture.

The Words of Christ come from the Spirit. We are to heed the Spirit. Treasure up the words of life means to listen and to obey to the Spirit.

You ask, "Will the Holy Ghost tell you what to say...before or after...treasuring up the words of life?" I'm saying, unless the Spirit is speaking to you, you aren't even hearing or listening to the words of life.

It sounds like you're trying to say that we need to read the scriptures and then when we need it, the Holy Ghost will help us remember what we read. Sure, that's true, but that isn't what really matters. Again, because angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are speaking the words of Christ. The words of Christ are the things that the Holy Ghost is speaking to you. Some of the things that were spoken by the power of the Holy Ghost got written down and we call these words scripture. However, the only way you can actually understand what has been written down by the Spirit of Prophecy is for you to have the Spirit of Prophecy yourself. In other words, you can't understand what the written scriptures really mean unless you have the Holy Ghost and unless the written words were written by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are not scripture.

Just reading the scriptures, unaided by the Holy Spirit, is a fruitless venture. In order to bring life to the words, you must be enlightened by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will then reveal to you the true meaning and the true understanding of what it is you are reading and bring life in to it.

-Finrock

[LDS Physician]

Jesus Christ and HF are two separate individuals. It is at the core of what the prophets have taught and clearly stated in the scriptures.

Just one for instance: read about Jesus's baptism in Matthew. While he was standing in the water, a voice from heaven declared "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This was not ventriloquism...it was HF speaking from a different place than his Son. Two separate individuals.

And yet the "most correct book" (Book of Mormon) clearly teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is "one Eternal God".

These Book of Mormon scriptures you are referring to have been explained multiple times by prophets and apostles, including the First Presidency in the early 1900s...they clarify them and explain them quite well.

HF and JC and the HG are three separate personages. People who believe in the restoration and modern prophets believe the same.