What were God's sins?

[Finrock]

As above so below. It does make sense, and I love the idea of having unconditionally loving Heavenly Parents who I pray to regularly and will probably my entire life. Still, how I understand them is changing, and I think, ideally we progress eternally.

I suppose there are different ways to interpret scriptures - and which to focus on...
"And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me."
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither shall they say, lo here or lo there, for behold the kingdom of God is within you."

Simple but paradoxical too - God cannot be experienced outside of me or you - we each have spiritual experiences of God within us - pretty undeniable fact. God is I AM THAT I AM... God is consciousness aware of consciousness again - all within each of us - and yet God is in all!

At a lower level of understanding, I can see the need to personify God - to fit "Him" into our image. But if you really believe that God is infinite, all knowing, all powerful, not limited - but everywhere (omnipresent), then God cannot be limited to a body like us. God is in all! God is the life - the energy that permeates everything! This requires getting beyond concrete thinking and considering not only abstract, but also realizing there is so much about God (ultimate love based on higher truth) that we have yet to learn so much about! What if I realize God is literally within me - and within each person I come across? How would I esteem myself and them differently?

The nebulous and incomprehensible God you describe is not correct. Yes, he is much beyond our capabilities, accomplishments, knowledge, etc. etc....but when it comes to his very nature, the prophets have been quite clear: he is a personage of Flesh and Bone. So many prophets have made this clear. What you're describing is the HG: "permeates everything" and "God is in all!"...HF does not permeate everything and he is not in us all...the HG does, however.

If you define "God" as HF, JC, and the HG, then yes...God is in us all and permeates everything. If you define "God" as Heavenly Father himself, then God is NOT in us all and does NOT permeate everything.

Thinker didn't use the adjectives nebulous and incomprehensible in his description of God. More properly what you are saying is that to you what Thinker is describing is nebulous and incomprehensible. I'm pretty sure that Thinker doesn't feel that what he is describing is incomprehensible or nebulous.

What does your post even really mean? So, are you saying that God's nature is changed if we define Him differently? Your post is really confusing, actually. It seems that you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to deny that God is every where by saying God is Heavenly Father, but then you agree that God is every where by saying that God is the Godhead. So, which is it? Is God the Godhead or is God just Heavenly Father, to you?

Also, what of the scriptures that say stuff like this:

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Seems to be speaking about the Father here and explicitly stating that the Father is above all, through all, and in us all.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Seems that here the scriptures are saying that God may be all in all. Doesn't seem like its talking about what you consider the Holy Spirit.

What's my point? Is it possible that you don't yet have a correct understanding of God? Further, have you considered that God having a body of flesh and bone does not contradict God being all in all? Are you certain you understand the Holy Ghost properly as to who and what He is? Or, are you certain that you've got God all figured out and that anything that doesn't equal your conception of God is "nebulous and incomprehensible"?

-Finrock

*sigh*

Joseph Smith: “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another."

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22: “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” - Joseph Smith

“The scripture says, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], and again that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one, and these three agree in the same thing [see 1 John 5:7–8]. So did the Savior pray to the Father, ‘I pray not for the world, but for those whom ye gave me out of the world, that we might be one,’ or to say, be of one mind in the unity of the faith [see John 17:9, 11]. But everyone being a different or separate person, so are God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost separate persons, but they all agree in one or the selfsame thing.” -- Joseph Smith

I'm only as confused as Joseph Smith was. They are three separate and distinct individuals. It's really not all that confusing...unless, of course, you don't believe in what the prophet taught us.

I already know all of this. I've read the same things too. You assume that what you've written some how contradicts what Thinker or I have said.

In any case, it seems that you aren't interested in hearing anything other than what you already think you know.

-Finrock

[LDS Physician]

Jesus Christ and HF are two separate individuals. It is at the core of what the prophets have taught and clearly stated in the scriptures.

Just one for instance: read about Jesus's baptism in Matthew. While he was standing in the water, a voice from heaven declared "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This was not ventriloquism...it was HF speaking from a different place than his Son. Two separate individuals.

And yet the "most correct book" (Book of Mormon) clearly teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is "one Eternal God".

These Book of Mormon scriptures you are referring to have been explained multiple times by prophets and apostles, including the First Presidency in the early 1900s...they clarify them and explain them quite well.

HF and JC and the HG are three separate personages. People who believe in the restoration and modern prophets believe the same.

Three separate persons, but one God.
That is the doctrine of the Book of Mormon.

Yes, "one" in every way that the Savior meant when he offered his intercessory prayer and asked that we may be one as he and his father are one...obviously not one in personage. "One" in the context as defined by the several different quotes I listed above from Joseph Smith, all of which are quite plain and direct.

[freedomforall]

3 Nephi 11:32
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

3 Nephi 28:11
11 And the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.

The Holy Ghost, being a part of the Godhead, having no body of flesh and bone; being one with the other two, can be in all of us, whereas, Elohim and Jehovah cannot. This is why the Holy Ghost is called the Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Spirit, and Holy Spirit of Promise.

The Holy Ghost is different from the Light of Christ.

D&C 84:45
Moro. 7:19 (15–19)

[LDS Physician]

The nebulous and incomprehensible God you describe is not correct. Yes, he is much beyond our capabilities, accomplishments, knowledge, etc. etc....but when it comes to his very nature, the prophets have been quite clear: he is a personage of Flesh and Bone. So many prophets have made this clear. What you're describing is the HG: "permeates everything" and "God is in all!"...HF does not permeate everything and he is not in us all...the HG does, however.

If you define "God" as HF, JC, and the HG, then yes...God is in us all and permeates everything. If you define "God" as Heavenly Father himself, then God is NOT in us all and does NOT permeate everything.

Thinker didn't use the adjectives nebulous and incomprehensible in his description of God. More properly what you are saying is that to you what Thinker is describing is nebulous and incomprehensible. I'm pretty sure that Thinker doesn't feel that what he is describing is incomprehensible or nebulous.

What does your post even really mean? So, are you saying that God's nature is changed if we define Him differently? Your post is really confusing, actually. It seems that you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to deny that God is every where by saying God is Heavenly Father, but then you agree that God is every where by saying that God is the Godhead. So, which is it? Is God the Godhead or is God just Heavenly Father, to you?

Also, what of the scriptures that say stuff like this:

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Seems to be speaking about the Father here and explicitly stating that the Father is above all, through all, and in us all.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Seems that here the scriptures are saying that God may be all in all. Doesn't seem like its talking about what you consider the Holy Spirit.

What's my point? Is it possible that you don't yet have a correct understanding of God? Further, have you considered that God having a body of flesh and bone does not contradict God being all in all? Are you certain you understand the Holy Ghost properly as to who and what He is? Or, are you certain that you've got God all figured out and that anything that doesn't equal your conception of God is "nebulous and incomprehensible"?

-Finrock

*sigh*

Joseph Smith: “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another."

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22: “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” - Joseph Smith

“The scripture says, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], and again that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one, and these three agree in the same thing [see 1 John 5:7–8]. So did the Savior pray to the Father, ‘I pray not for the world, but for those whom ye gave me out of the world, that we might be one,’ or to say, be of one mind in the unity of the faith [see John 17:9, 11]. But everyone being a different or separate person, so are God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost separate persons, but they all agree in one or the selfsame thing.” -- Joseph Smith

I'm only as confused as Joseph Smith was. They are three separate and distinct individuals. It's really not all that confusing...unless, of course, you don't believe in what the prophet taught us.

I already know all of this. I've read the same things too. You assume that what you've written some how contradicts what Thinker or I have said.

In any case, it seems that you aren't interested in hearing anything other than what you already think you know.

-Finrock

I'm only interested in helping those who believe false doctrines understand truth. If I misunderstood what you both were saying then my apologies. I'm prone to misunderstanding sometimes. It seemed, however, that some were disagreeing with the prophet-established doctrine of the Godhead; hence my posts. Thanks!

[freedomforall]

God is ALL knowing. This being truth, can he then discern our intents, our motives, our very thoughts?

And if God can read our thoughts, then can we conclude that he then is, in this fashion, inside us any time he desires to check up on us, his children?




D&C 6:16

[LDS Physician]

God is ALL knowing. This being truth, can he then discern our intents, our motives, our very thoughts?

And if God can read our thoughts, then can we conclude that he then is, in this fashion, inside us any time he desires to check up on us, his children?




D&C 6:16

After a fashion, yes! I like that!

[Finrock]

What ever good that you possess, God possesses. So, that portion of light that you have, God has the same light within Him. That portion of you which is good is in God and that same portion of God is in you. In this way, God is in us and we are in God. All truth is circumscribed in to one great whole. There is just One truth. The distinctions and the separation that we feel and fall prey to are a result of sin and Satanic influences.

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

What ever good that you possess, God possesses. So, that portion of light that you have, God has the same light within Him. That portion of you which is good is in God and that same portion of God is in you. In this way, God is in us and we are in God. All truth is circumscribed in to one great whole. There is just One truth. The distinctions and the separation that we feel and fall prey to are a result of sin and Satanic influences.

-Finrock

And yet:

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Helaman 12:7-8
7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:42
42 He that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that abaseth himself shall be exalted.

So let's not put ourselves equal to God in any fashion, ie, intelligence, knowledge or light.

[Thinker]

So I would say that reading the scriptures and gaining knowledge from imperfect people is still a right thing to engage in. It's a commandment.

...Says writings of imperfect people... "You must worship our writings - DAILY!" I don't consider that a commandment. But I do think it's good to seek and learn truth wherever it's found - including scriptures. But not every word or meaning is of God - it's tough but try to avoid the temptation to trust in the arm of flesh (writings of imperfect people). Trust only in God - not as easy as it sounds.

[Thinker]

The nebulous and incomprehensible God you describe is not correct. Yes, he is much beyond our capabilities, accomplishments, knowledge, etc. etc....but when it comes to his very nature, the prophets have been quite clear: he is a personage of Flesh and Bone. So many prophets have made this clear. What you're describing is the HG: "permeates everything" and "God is in all!"...HF does not permeate everything and he is not in us all...the HG does, however.

If you define "God" as HF, JC, and the HG, then yes...God is in us all and permeates everything. If you define "God" as Heavenly Father himself, then God is NOT in us all and does NOT permeate everything.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm monotheistic. I do believe there are different spirits, but there is just ONE God - not 3.
And the God I believe in is infinite - omnicient and omnipresent which means God is not limited to a body like we are.

But none of that really matters. Who really knows? I don't think any prophets knew all there is to know about God - Moses plainly admitted he didn't. Some were much less humble. What matters is how well we love. God is love - that, hopefully, we can agree on.

[Durzan]

The nebulous and incomprehensible God you describe is not correct. Yes, he is much beyond our capabilities, accomplishments, knowledge, etc. etc....but when it comes to his very nature, the prophets have been quite clear: he is a personage of Flesh and Bone. So many prophets have made this clear. What you're describing is the HG: "permeates everything" and "God is in all!"...HF does not permeate everything and he is not in us all...the HG does, however.

If you define "God" as HF, JC, and the HG, then yes...God is in us all and permeates everything. If you define "God" as Heavenly Father himself, then God is NOT in us all and does NOT permeate everything.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm monotheistic. I do believe there are different spirits, but there is just ONE God - not 3.
And the God I believe in is infinite - omnicient and omnipresent which means God is not limited to a body like we are.

But none of that really matters. Who really knows? I don't think any prophets knew all there is to know about God - Moses plainly admitted he didn't. Some were much less humble. What matters is how well we love. God is love - that, hopefully, we can agree on.

Flaw: You are assuming that God would indeed be limited if He had a body.

Response: Exactly what I said in my previous post.

Though he is probably only physically present in one location at a time, He is the Creator, and whenever someone truely creates something, they are in a sense, imbuing it with a portion of themselves. Thus, Father can still have a body of flesh and bone and yet still be in all things. And this is no more true than with us... who's spirits are His literal children, and who's physical bodies were made in the image of Him.

On top of that, I would hazard a guess that Heavenly Father would have some form of ability akin to telepathy. This combined with His divine ability to be able to comprehend all things and perform an infinite number of thoughts and calculations in an instant, allows His mind to be in all things without Him having to take on an incorporeal form (though doubtless Father could do that as well).

TL;DR: God isn't necessarily limited if He has a physical body... and thats assuming that being Omnipresent being is actually a doctrinally sound belief AND actually true in the first place.

[freedomforall]

Is the Savior a ventriloquist? Did he throw his own voice into the heavens and say "this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased?" Matthew 3:17


Who was the Savior referring when he said:

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Who can declare their is only one person referred to in these verses?:

Moses 1:32,33
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.



JST, John 1:1–34. Compare John 1:1–34

The gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached from the beginning. John the Baptist is the Elias who prepares the way for Christ, and Jesus Christ is the Elias who restores all things and through whom salvation comes.

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.

13 He was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

16 For in the beginning was the Word, even the Son, who is made flesh, and sent unto us by the will of the Father. And as many as believe on his name shall receive of his fullness. And of his fullness have all we received, even immortality and eternal life, through his grace.


There ARE three personages in the Godhead, not a single schizophrenic having three different titles.

Here's one for everyone:

Moses 5:9
9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

So the question arises, what does it mean to bear record of another being?

IE:

3 Nephi 11:32
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

1) I Jesus bear record of the Father
2) the Father Elohim beareth record of me
3) the Holy Ghost personage of Spirit beareth record of the Father and me

[freedomforall]

Are scriptures for our profit and learning or are they only, partially important having been written by men?

These verses indicate that scripture is, indeed, important:

Alma 33:2
2 And Alma said unto them: Behold, ye have said that ye could not worship your God because ye are cast out of your synagogues. But behold, I say unto you, if ye suppose that ye cannot worship God, ye do greatly err, and ye ought to search the scriptures; if ye suppose that they have taught you this, ye do not understand them.

Doctrine and Covenants 10:63-65
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.

Mormon 9:8
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.

Jacob 7:10,11
10 And I said unto him: Believest thou the scriptures? And he said, Yea.
11 And I said unto him: Then ye do not understand them; for they truly testify of Christ. Behold, I say unto you that none of the prophets have written, nor prophesied, save they have spoken concerning this Christ.


To claim we are not to read scripture because they were written by the arm of flesh is not a valid reason to not read them.

It is up to us to, by the power of the Holy Ghost, discern truth from error. Upon a man's word being corroborated by scripture and the Holy Ghost, then his word is not being delivered by the arm of flesh in a negative or deceitful way.

2 Nephi 28:31
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Save = except

[freedomforall]

So I would say that reading the scriptures and gaining knowledge from imperfect people is still a right thing to engage in. It's a commandment.

...Says writings of imperfect people... "You must worship our writings - DAILY!" I don't consider that a commandment. But I do think it's good to seek and learn truth wherever it's found - including scriptures. But not every word or meaning is of God - it's tough but try to avoid the temptation to trust in the arm of flesh (writings of imperfect people). Trust only in God - not as easy as it sounds.

Have you ever been in a foxhole, fearful of an enemy that could sneak up and slit your throat, and being thankful that you fully believe in scripture and its message to help you get through each day?

Here is a man who found a book with no cover and read it to find its message coming to burn in his heart as fact, as truth. He believed it so much that he started to teach the message to others. This practice eventually got him into hot water, but he persisted anyway.

Can you spare an hour?

[Thinker]

Flaw: You are assuming that God would indeed be limited if He had a body.

Maybe we're using different dictionaries.
This is the definition I think of with the term, "body": 1.the physical structure of a person or an animal, including the bones, flesh, and organs:
synonyms: figure · frame · form · physique · anatomy · skeleton · soma · bod · soul case"

A body is physical, as I'm guessing you believe God is. Having a body implies limit because it has FORM... it has a place where it starts and a place where it stops. However, God, as I understand God, is not limited, but in and through ALL.

Still, you and Freedom do raise a good question: Why believe only in 1 God - why not 3 (or 4 if you count Heavenly Mother)? Is that really a bad thing to be polytheistic? Maybe God is divided in different ways - like the Greek Gods - one for each purpose in nature, or the many gods of Hinduism... the kitchen god of Taoism is interesting. Why not categorize God like a phone book? They say that there are many spirits - the spirit of love, of friendship, of contention etc. So maybe, God is divided.

But personally, and even in many myths (like Zeus), there is one god that kind of is in charge of the other gods. I suppose you see God as that way with the other parts of God (Jesus and the Holly Ghost). I guess the question is if you believe this strongly & apply it to your life, where would it get you... as opposed to believing in just one God? I'm not sure, but maybe believing in ONE God helps to keep priorities straight... IE: If you were trying to please a bunch of other gods, you might prioritize one, while neglecting the other. If you had ONE God, with one main principle (in this case "God is LOVE") then that keeps everything in check more, as long as you continuously sought to do all of the GOoD you were forever learning about God.

To me, it was clear that Jesus warned people NOT to worship him, to not set him up on a pedestal as if we could never be like him. He repeatedly said, "Come follow me, you can do even more than what you see I do!" I see the belief in Jesus as human sacrifice scapegoat as a spiritual trap - damning us from moving on.

I'm not as sure about believing the Holy Ghost as separate from God, except for children who have a hard time believing in abstract concepts. But there comes a time to put off childish thinking. I don't think any of us can HONESTLY claim to know what God is like, but I do believe that God is much more than a limited body. Though I have considered the possibility of God having a giant body - and the planets are like atoms within - but still, wouldn't God be limited? I tend to see God more as spirit and consciousness: I AM THAT I AM. But for purposes of spiritually connecting, I pray to and resonate with the idea of a Heavenly Father and Mother.

[Thinker]

Have you ever been in a foxhole, fearful of an enemy that could sneak up and slit your throat, and being thankful that you fully believe in scripture and its message to help you get through each day?

There have been times when I've worshipped and trusted in writings of men over God, but I try not to anymore.
I try to trust only in God - because ONLY God is perfect and only God knows what I need & what others need.
And only God can love unconditionally.
Still, sometimes I slip up and unrealistically expect imperfect people to give me what only God can.

Can you spare an hour?

Thanks for the video. I've seen it before - he couldn't judge the book by the cover because it wasn't there!

[Finrock]

Flaw: You are assuming that God would indeed be limited if He had a body.

Maybe we're using different dictionaries.
This is the definition I think of with the term, "body": 1.the physical structure of a person or an animal, including the bones, flesh, and organs:
synonyms: figure · frame · form · physique · anatomy · skeleton · soma · bod · soul case"

A body is physical, as I'm guessing you believe God is. Having a body implies limit because it has FORM... it has a place where it starts and a place where it stops. However, God, as I understand God, is not limited, but in and through ALL.

Still, you and Freedom do raise a good question: Why believe only in 1 God - why not 3 (or 4 if you count Heavenly Mother)? Is that really a bad thing to be polytheistic? Maybe God is divided in different ways - like the Greek Gods - one for each purpose in nature, or the many gods of Hinduism... the kitchen god of Taoism is interesting. Why not categorize God like a phone book? They say that there are many spirits - the spirit of love, of friendship, of contention etc. So maybe, God is divided.

But personally, and even in many myths (like Zeus), there is one god that kind of is in charge of the other gods. I suppose you see God as that way with the other parts of God (Jesus and the Holly Ghost). I guess the question is if you believe this strongly & apply it to your life, where would it get you... as opposed to believing in just one God? I'm not sure, but maybe believing in ONE God helps to keep priorities straight... IE: If you were trying to please a bunch of other gods, you might prioritize one, while neglecting the other. If you had ONE God, with one main principle (in this case "God is LOVE") then that keeps everything in check more, as long as you continuously sought to do all of the GOoD you were forever learning about God.

To me, it was clear that Jesus warned people NOT to worship him, to not set him up on a pedestal as if we could never be like him. He repeatedly said, "Come follow me, you can do even more than what you see I do!" I see the belief in Jesus as human sacrifice scapegoat as a spiritual trap - damning us from moving on.

I'm not as sure about believing the Holy Ghost as separate from God, except for children who have a hard time believing in abstract concepts. But there comes a time to put off childish thinking. I don't think any of us can HONESTLY claim to know what God is like, but I do believe that God is much more than a limited body. Though I have considered the possibility of God having a giant body - and the planets are like atoms within - but still, wouldn't God be limited? I tend to see God more as spirit and consciousness: I AM THAT I AM. But for purposes of spiritually connecting, I pray to and resonate with the idea of a Heavenly Father and Mother.

Spirit AND element are eternal. In order for there to be a fullness of joy, spirit and element must be joined as one. If God exist in all and through all, then He must have a physical form because physical element exists and is itself eternal. God is complete.

If we acknowledge that God is in all of us, or God is in me (you), then God has a physical form because I have a physical form.

-Finrock

[Thinker]

Spirit AND element are eternal. In order for there to be a fullness of joy, spirit and element must be joined as one. If God exist in all and through all, then He must have a physical form because physical element exists and is itself eternal. God is complete.

If we acknowledge that God is in all of us, or God is in me (you), then God has a physical form because I have a physical form.

Element is not eternal. We die, Finrock. Everything dies physically. Spirit is eternal, not matter. Spirit is something I admit, I haven't been able to really wrap my mind around - partly I think it's not meant to be - but rather it's more emotion and spirit-based. Still, I know when I've felt the spirit, and it's not a body coming inside me - it's energy which is formless, as I believe God is.

Who's to say what's complete? We who have bodies?
If something is complete - as in all-encompassing - I only see that as being God as spirit.
Of course you have a right to believe as you want - and as I mentioned, for the sake of spiritually connecting, when I pray, I imagine Heavenly Father and Mother having form, but deep down, I know it's my own image I've created rather than the ultimate truth of God.

"God is love" scripture says, and I believe it - it makes sense and gives me hope.
A friend was talking about unconditional love. Is it more unconditionally loving to love someone for your image of them... to love one specific child for what you think and feel for them... Or is it more unconditionally loving to love children in general, just because you are love?

If I cling to the idea of my child as they are now - I might be as one of those mothers who still babies their child even into adulthood - thereby limiting their growth and mine. But if I am open to loving based on the evolving idea of my child growing, I can love better.

If I cling to God as I think of God, then I'm kind of having false gods - clinging to old wine bottles - rather than being open to learning more about what God would have me know about Him/Her. Similarly, going back to "God is love", to me the essence of this is love which (IMO) is appreciating what is while striving for what's best, through trial and error - active faith. Each moment, I love, will likely call for a unique response, not the same thing over and over. God is dynamic - sure, maybe ultimate truth is never-changing - but we're so far from that. What we think is "God" is really just our idea of God and we tend to make God in our own image, which is very limiting. God is much more and maybe we'll have more if we dare to let go of old beliefs - embrace good news regularly - not just once.

BTW - Finrock, I really enjoy discussing things with you, even when we disagree. You're reasonable and yet intuitive and respectful, which I appreciate.

[freedomforall]

15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

[Finrock]

Spirit AND element are eternal. In order for there to be a fullness of joy, spirit and element must be joined as one. If God exist in all and through all, then He must have a physical form because physical element exists and is itself eternal. God is complete.

If we acknowledge that God is in all of us, or God is in me (you), then God has a physical form because I have a physical form.

Element is not eternal. We die, Finrock. Everything dies physically. Spirit is eternal, not matter. Spirit is something I admit, I haven't been able to really wrap my mind around - partly I think it's not meant to be - but rather it's more emotion and spirit-based. Still, I know when I've felt the spirit, and it's not a body coming inside me - it's energy which is formless, as I believe God is.

Who's to say what's complete? We who have bodies?
If something is complete - as in all-encompassing - I only see that as being God as spirit.
Of course you have a right to believe as you want - and as I mentioned, for the sake of spiritually connecting, when I pray, I imagine Heavenly Father and Mother having form, but deep down, I know it's my own image I've created rather than the ultimate truth of God.

"God is love" scripture says, and I believe it - it makes sense and gives me hope.
A friend was talking about unconditional love. Is it more unconditionally loving to love someone for your image of them... to love one specific child for what you think and feel for them... Or is it more unconditionally loving to love children in general, just because you are love?

If I cling to the idea of my child as they are now - I might be as one of those mothers who still babies their child even into adulthood - thereby limiting their growth and mine. But if I am open to loving based on the evolving idea of my child growing, I can love better.

If I cling to God as I think of God, then I'm kind of having false gods - clinging to old wine bottles - rather than being open to learning more about what God would have me know about Him/Her. Similarly, going back to "God is love", to me the essence of this is love which (IMO) is appreciating what is while striving for what's best, through trial and error - active faith. Each moment, I love, will likely call for a unique response, not the same thing over and over. God is dynamic - sure, maybe ultimate truth is never-changing - but we're so far from that. What we think is "God" is really just our idea of God and we tend to make God in our own image, which is very limiting. God is much more and maybe we'll have more if we dare to let go of old beliefs - embrace good news regularly - not just once.

BTW - Finrock, I really enjoy discussing things with you, even when we disagree. You're reasonable and yet intuitive and respectful, which I appreciate.

Hi Thinker!

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

I gather you don't agree with this scripture? If you do agree with it, what do you understand this to mean?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Flaw: You are assuming that God would indeed be limited if He had a body.

Maybe we're using different dictionaries.
This is the definition I think of with the term, "body": 1.the physical structure of a person or an animal, including the bones, flesh, and organs:
synonyms: figure · frame · form · physique · anatomy · skeleton · soma · bod · soul case"

A body is physical, as I'm guessing you believe God is. Having a body implies limit because it has FORM... it has a place where it starts and a place where it stops. However, God, as I understand God, is not limited, but in and through ALL.

Still, you and Freedom do raise a good question: Why believe only in 1 God - why not 3 (or 4 if you count Heavenly Mother)? Is that really a bad thing to be polytheistic? Maybe God is divided in different ways - like the Greek Gods - one for each purpose in nature, or the many gods of Hinduism... the kitchen god of Taoism is interesting. Why not categorize God like a phone book? They say that there are many spirits - the spirit of love, of friendship, of contention etc. So maybe, God is divided.

But personally, and even in many myths (like Zeus), there is one god that kind of is in charge of the other gods. I suppose you see God as that way with the other parts of God (Jesus and the Holly Ghost). I guess the question is if you believe this strongly & apply it to your life, where would it get you... as opposed to believing in just one God? I'm not sure, but maybe believing in ONE God helps to keep priorities straight... IE: If you were trying to please a bunch of other gods, you might prioritize one, while neglecting the other. If you had ONE God, with one main principle (in this case "God is LOVE") then that keeps everything in check more, as long as you continuously sought to do all of the GOoD you were forever learning about God.

To me, it was clear that Jesus warned people NOT to worship him, to not set him up on a pedestal as if we could never be like him. He repeatedly said, "Come follow me, you can do even more than what you see I do!" I see the belief in Jesus as human sacrifice scapegoat as a spiritual trap - damning us from moving on.

I'm not as sure about believing the Holy Ghost as separate from God, except for children who have a hard time believing in abstract concepts. But there comes a time to put off childish thinking. I don't think any of us can HONESTLY claim to know what God is like, but I do believe that God is much more than a limited body. Though I have considered the possibility of God having a giant body - and the planets are like atoms within - but still, wouldn't God be limited? I tend to see God more as spirit and consciousness: I AM THAT I AM. But for purposes of spiritually connecting, I pray to and resonate with the idea of a Heavenly Father and Mother.

If you believe God is in and through ALL, then He must have a body. Why? Because element exist, bodies exist, forms exist, and God being in all things means He is in all bodies, all element. The elements are His tabernacle. Even from your perspective God has a body, i.e., the Universe.

-Finrock

[Thinker]

Hi Thinker!

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

I gather you don't agree with this scripture? If you do agree with it, what do you understand this to mean?

-Finrock

Ooh, I love considering interpretations of scriptures- thanks!

Man is spirit - yes - before combining it with body and after death - spirit.
What is spirit? (That's another topic!)

Elemental: "primary or basic; 2.related to or embodying the powers of nature"

Gottfired Leibniz considered the essence or elemental aspect of all matter to be "monads" - which were based on perception ("intelligence").
By themselves, they could never be destroyed - they existed by internal principles - spiritual conscious (I AM THAT I AM) principles.
Matter consists of the combining of these monads... when they're separated then they are no longer the same matter - when we die, our souls are not the same as they were when combined with a body. We don't have the same fullness of joy. It reminds me of a scripture, "God is not god of the dead, but of the living." (I'm curious - what do you think about that one?)

You probably have heard of the analogy of a glove. The glove representing our bodies - is limp without a hand (soul) inside. The spirit is eternal, the body is a more changing form of energy - changes form. Who knows, maybe the spirit is also a changing form of energy - but requires a body to change.

When a body is spoiled (defiled), it will die - it's natural law that God has in place.
But you could also interpret this spiritually - that when one habitually allows mental and spiritual poisons into one's mind and soul, it will slowly kill one's spirit. Spirituality is intertwined with psych-ology (study of the soul). And when I think of my body as God's temple - wow - what responsibility I have to keep it more clean and healthy.

What do you think, Finrock?

[Thinker]

If you believe God is in and through ALL, then He must have a body. Why? Because element exist, bodies exist, forms exist, and God being in all things means He is in all bodies, all element. The elements are His tabernacle. Even from your perspective God has a body, i.e., the Universe.

-Finrock

But if he had one single body, he could not be in all. He'd (or She'd) only be in one.
It's kind of mind-boggling to think about God being spirit - so I totally understand the need to make God in our images.
Who really knows what God is? Probably best to keep an open mind.

Paul Tillech defined God as "one's ultimate concern" - so - some Atheists (who discuss Atheism all day) ironically worship Atheism as their god. But think about how honest that is! One may say, "Yeah, I worship God" or "No, I'm Nihilist." But actions speak louder than words! If one spends his time, money & energy with his boat, church, or staring at self in the mirror - or whatever - THAT is actually their ultimate concern. And the spiritual side of that is that God is about love - and motivating energy. A friend said, "God would be doing exactly what you are if he were in your shoes." Maybe there are different levels of understanding, prioritizing and worshipping God - definitely right? Moses rightly discovered God is "I AM THAT I AM" and Jesus said, "the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you" - which testify that God is in the eye of the beholder.

I think that is a very broad but ideal way of considering God - it is based on truth (I believe) yet it allows for so much learning about God. Tillech also said that the important thing spiritually, is to pursue the ultimate concern with the least idolic elements. Tougher than it sounds! Our problem is not idolizing golden calves, but maybe idolizing the praise of others. Ever ask yourself, "Why do I want this? - what is it that this is going to bring me that I most deeply desire?"... then answer and ask again and again... I did this and realized that many of my desires were kind of vain - or shallow. Why be a famous actress - attention, money, praise? Why be the best at - - - -? To me, the least idolic thing to want is love, which I define as God and appreciating what is while striving for what's best - each evolving moment. Each moment would likely require a unique expression of love - so no clinging to false idols.

For purposes of spiritually relating, if it helps, (as it does me) think of God as Heavenly Father and Mother - with bodies like us. It's easier to relate to and I'm sure God has no problem with that if that's all we can muster. But at some point, I think we'll realize that God is so much more. And considering that God is in all - in me, you, in everything in this world - will inspire a reverence and love toward all.

[Lovendoz]

When Jesus came to earth and lived here as a man, he did not sin. That is clear from the scriptures. If you read the bible, it is clear.

[freedomforall]

When Jesus came to earth and lived here as a man, he did not sin. That is clear from the scriptures. If you read the bible, it is clear.

Had Jesus sinned even one time, we would not be able to have our sins remitted. Every single person from Adam to the last man on earth would go to hell, and the millennium would not happen.