What were God's sins?

[freedomforall]

There are now two different things to discuss:
1) Was God once a mortal man like us? Robin Hood does not believe this. Most LDS will disagree with him.
2) Was a devil necessary? D&C 29:39 says so. I have hard time understanding this. I understand that opposition is necessary. It is necessary for us to live a mortal life out of the presence of God, which allows the possibility of sinning. However, do we really need a personal evil? According to my understanding there was no evil being tempting Lucifer in the pre-existence and yet he and others choose to rebel.

I think you sum it up well inho.
1. I do believe God was once a mortal man; we can read all about him and his mortal life in the gospels.
2. A devil is not necessary. If so, all those born during the millenium are doomed.

D&C29:39 is explaining why God allows Satan to tempt us. I don't see that it says Satan was or is necessary.

God's work and Glory is to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of man. This did not hinge on Lucifer choosing to rebel. God's wisdom allows for all choices by all of His children.

Who was it that tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? God? Adam? Who?
If you don't think Satan is necessary, then just how would we have come into being without him?
God gave two opposing commandments, 1) multiply and replenish the earth, and 2) do not eat of the forbidden fruit. Adam and Eve had to break one commandment in order to obey the other.

2 Nephi 2:22,23,25
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men care, that they might have joy.

Moses 6:48
48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.

Sorry, folks, but Satan is and was necessary. God uses him for his purposes. Even Jesus was tempted in all ways as us, but he heeded them not.

Heb 4
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:22
22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them.

[freedomforall]

There are now two different things to discuss:
1) Was God once a mortal man like us? Robin Hood does not believe this. Most LDS will disagree with him.
2) Was a devil necessary? D&C 29:39 says so. I have hard time understanding this. I understand that opposition is necessary. It is necessary for us to live a mortal life out of the presence of God, which allows the possibility of sinning. However, do we really need a personal evil? According to my understanding there was no evil being tempting Lucifer in the pre-existence and yet he and others choose to rebel.

I think you sum it up well inho.
1. I do believe God was once a mortal man; we can read all about him and his mortal life in the gospels.
2. A devil is not necessary. If so, all those born during the millenium are doomed.

Okay, Robin Hood, since you got everything figured out without accepting scripture, why then, is God going to release Satan at the end of the Millennium? Just for he fun of it? Why is there going to be one of the biggest battles in the history of the world called Gog and Magog after the Millennium?
Never, have I stated that sin is necessary. This is your conclusion, not mine. I did post scripture, however, that says temptation is necessary. Therefore, Satan is necessary. We choose which one to obey every single day of our lives, all day long, 24/7.

I don't know if God sinned. But where did he get his body of flesh and bones?

And if you are lucky enough to become a God creating your own worlds and people to inhabit them as we hear about so much...are you going to be able to tell them that you didn't sin, just once? I do not think so. Is that going to make you any less qualified to become a God? No, not if you believe in the atonement of Christ which renders the penitent clean, spotless, pure and white. Otherwise, what do you believe in? Why spend each day trying to live right if there isn't some hope for a better world?

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

And what about the billions who will be born, live and "die", during the millenium, with no devil around to tempt them? Clearly, according to your theory these people will have a significant disadvantage, complicated further by the the improvement in the natural condition of the earth (less opposition) and the presence of God himself. Poor souls!

You accuse me of ignoring the scriptures. Please tell me which scriptures indicate that we will become God and "create our own worlds and people to inhabit them".

You ask "where did (God) get his body of flesh and bones?". The truth is, we don't know. He hasn't said. We know that our body is only in the image of his. We do not know that his body is the result of mortality.
We would do well to quit trying to read between the lines.

Nor to ignore them

Have you ever attended a temple? What, in your mind is principalities and thrones? If you are not to inhabit worlds then aren't you going to be quite lonely in your own area of the universe?
Aren't we told that Celestial beings can continue to have children for ever and ever? So where are you going to put them all, in the basement of your heavenly home?

You as a bishop should know all this stuff.

[Finrock]

There are now two different things to discuss:
1) Was God once a mortal man like us? Robin Hood does not believe this. Most LDS will disagree with him.
2) Was a devil necessary? D&C 29:39 says so. I have hard time understanding this. I understand that opposition is necessary. It is necessary for us to live a mortal life out of the presence of God, which allows the possibility of sinning. However, do we really need a personal evil? According to my understanding there was no evil being tempting Lucifer in the pre-existence and yet he and others choose to rebel.

I think you sum it up well inho.
1. I do believe God was once a mortal man; we can read all about him and his mortal life in the gospels.
2. A devil is not necessary. If so, all those born during the millenium are doomed.

Okay, Robin Hood, since you got everything figured out without accepting scripture, why then, is God going to release Satan at the end of the Millennium? Just for he fun of it? Why is there going to be one of the biggest battles in the history of the world called Gog and Magog after the Millennium?
Never, have I stated that sin is necessary. This is your conclusion, not mine. I did post scripture, however, that says temptation is necessary. Therefore, Satan is necessary. We choose which one to obey every single day of our lives, all day long, 24/7.

I don't know if God sinned. But where did he get his body of flesh and bones?

And if you are lucky enough to become a God creating your own worlds and people to inhabit them as we hear about so much...are you going to be able to tell them that you didn't sin, just once? I do not think so. Is that going to make you any less qualified to become a God? No, not if you believe in the atonement of Christ which renders the penitent clean, spotless, pure and white. Otherwise, what do you believe in? Why spend each day trying to live right if there isn't some hope for a better world?

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

And what about the billions who will be born, live and "die", during the millenium, with no devil around to tempt them? Clearly, according to your theory these people will have a significant disadvantage, complicated further by the the improvement in the natural condition of the earth (less opposition) and the presence of God himself. Poor souls!

People who die during the millennium will be changed in a twinkling of an eye. They will still be on the Earth after the millennium ends and the devil is loosed for a brief period. Thus, all will have the opportunity to be tempted by a devil adversary as part of their probationary test.

-Finrock

[Serragon]

Who was it that tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? God? Adam? Who?
If you don't think Satan is necessary, then just how would we have come into being without him?

The serpent tempted Eve. The serpent was under the influence of Satan.

I cannot answer how we would have come to be if Eve had not eaten the fruit. I only know the road that I have actually been on, not all the various possible roads there might have been.

I know there was a way, as in the endowment ceremony God the Father says "IF they give in to temptation, we will provide a Savior for them". Obviously not giving in to temptation was an option.

If Lucifer had not rebelled, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If I had not chosen to commit the myriad sins I have committed in my life, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.


The scriptures you cite and your framework are all from the perspective of the path that was chosen. Because Lucifer rebelled and because Eve ate the fruit we have Satan and we have a Savior. All revelation from that point forward are within that context as that is all that applies to us.

That doesn't mean there was not another way. That does not mean other worlds and peoples have not chosen another way.

The idea that God needed Lucifer, Eve, and Judas to commit sin to bring to pass His work and His Glory is not true. Every choice any of us can or will make is already part of the plan of Salvation. No matter what I or anyone else chooses, the work of the Lord will not be frustrated.

[Finrock]

Who was it that tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? God? Adam? Who?
If you don't think Satan is necessary, then just how would we have come into being without him?

The serpent tempted Eve. The serpent was under the influence of Satan.

I cannot answer how we would have come to be if Eve had not eaten the fruit. I only know the road that I have actually been on, not all the various possible roads there might have been.

I know there was a way, as in the endowment ceremony God the Father says "IF they give in to temptation, we will provide a Savior for them". Obviously not giving in to temptation was an option.

If Lucifer had not rebelled, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If I had not chosen to commit the myriad sins I have committed in my life, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.


The scriptures you cite and your framework are all from the perspective of the path that was chosen. Because Lucifer rebelled and because Eve ate the fruit we have Satan and we have a Savior. All revelation from that point forward are within that context as that is all that applies to us.

That doesn't mean there was not another way. That does not mean other worlds and peoples have not chosen another way.

The idea that God needed Lucifer, Eve, and Judas to commit sin to bring to pass His work and His Glory is not true. Every choice any of us can or will make is already part of the plan of Salvation. No matter what I or anyone else chooses, the work of the Lord will not be frustrated.

Lucifer was in the garden before the fall. God allowed Lucifer to interact with Adam and Eve. If an adversary was not an essential part of the plan, why was an adversary there? Just because Lucifer rebelled in heaven doesn't explain why he was allowed in the garden and allowed to temp Adam and Eve to rebel.

-Finrock

[Serragon]

Lucifer was in the garden before the fall. God allowed Lucifer to interact with Adam and Eve. If an adversary was not an essential part of the plan, why was an adversary there? Just because Lucifer rebelled in heaven doesn't explain why he was allowed in the garden and allowed to temp Adam and Eve to rebel.

I don't disagree with your any of your points. I think you might be missing my main point however. What we experience and call the plan of salvation is a summation of peoples choices. We are where we are because of the choices made by everyone, including Lucifer. If anyone had made different choices, God's work would not be frustrated. What we experienced as "the plan" would probably be a bit different though.

An adversary might have been essential. God might have had another way of providing that opposition if Lucifer had not become Satan. I have no idea. But the reason Satan was there was because he rebelled. And if he had not rebelled, God still would have had a way of exalting us. But none of us can know what that was because that was not the path chosen.

Ultimately I don't want to argue, as this isn't really very important.

The reality is that Satan exists and attempts to influence us for evil. Eve ate the fruit and we are fallen. Christ took our sins upon himself and sacrificed Himself because he loved us. This is what matters.

[Finrock]

Lucifer was in the garden before the fall. God allowed Lucifer to interact with Adam and Eve. If an adversary was not an essential part of the plan, why was an adversary there? Just because Lucifer rebelled in heaven doesn't explain why he was allowed in the garden and allowed to temp Adam and Eve to rebel.

I don't disagree with your any of your points. I think you might be missing my main point however. What we experience and call the plan of salvation is a summation of peoples choices. We are where we are because of the choices made by everyone, including Lucifer. If anyone had made different choices, God's work would not be frustrated. What we experienced as "the plan" would probably be a bit different though.

An adversary might have been essential. God might have had another way of providing that opposition if Lucifer had not become Satan. I have no idea. But the reason Satan was there was because he rebelled. And if he had not rebelled, God still would have had a way of exalting us. But none of us can know what that was because that was not the path chosen.

Ultimately I don't want to argue, as this isn't really very important.

The reality is that Satan exists and attempts to influence us for evil. Eve ate the fruit and we are fallen. Christ took our sins upon himself and sacrificed Himself because he loved us. This is what matters.

Serragon, I'm not looking to argue. If I have gaps in my knowledge and I can be persuaded that I do, I'll repent and change my thinking to match.

I'm pretty sure I understood what you were saying initially. As it stands I see a hole in your reasoning and I am asking you to fill that hole. I am essentially saying to you that I get what you are saying, however, it doesn't explain this part and if you have an explanation for this part that makes sense to me, I'll accept it and change my thinking if appropriate for me to do so. Perhaps I have just not pondered the issue far enough or perhaps I just can't see what you see, so, I am asking you to explain that part.

You say the reason why Satan was in the garden is because he rebelled. I'm saying that because Lucifer rebelled does not explain why he was in the garden. Couldn't God have bound Lucifer after his rebellion or placed Lucifer some place else? Why did God allow Lucifer in to the garden and allow Lucifer to temp Adam and Eve after Lucifer rebelled? Do you have an explanation for this part? If you do, I would sincerely love to hear it.

-Finrock

[Robin Hood]

I think you sum it up well inho.
1. I do believe God was once a mortal man; we can read all about him and his mortal life in the gospels.
2. A devil is not necessary. If so, all those born during the millenium are doomed.

Okay, Robin Hood, since you got everything figured out without accepting scripture, why then, is God going to release Satan at the end of the Millennium? Just for he fun of it? Why is there going to be one of the biggest battles in the history of the world called Gog and Magog after the Millennium?
Never, have I stated that sin is necessary. This is your conclusion, not mine. I did post scripture, however, that says temptation is necessary. Therefore, Satan is necessary. We choose which one to obey every single day of our lives, all day long, 24/7.

I don't know if God sinned. But where did he get his body of flesh and bones?

And if you are lucky enough to become a God creating your own worlds and people to inhabit them as we hear about so much...are you going to be able to tell them that you didn't sin, just once? I do not think so. Is that going to make you any less qualified to become a God? No, not if you believe in the atonement of Christ which renders the penitent clean, spotless, pure and white. Otherwise, what do you believe in? Why spend each day trying to live right if there isn't some hope for a better world?

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

And what about the billions who will be born, live and "die", during the millenium, with no devil around to tempt them? Clearly, according to your theory these people will have a significant disadvantage, complicated further by the the improvement in the natural condition of the earth (less opposition) and the presence of God himself. Poor souls!

You accuse me of ignoring the scriptures. Please tell me which scriptures indicate that we will become God and "create our own worlds and people to inhabit them".

You ask "where did (God) get his body of flesh and bones?". The truth is, we don't know. He hasn't said. We know that our body is only in the image of his. We do not know that his body is the result of mortality.
We would do well to quit trying to read between the lines.

Nor to ignore them

Have you ever attended a temple? What, in your mind is principalities and thrones? If you are not to inhabit worlds then aren't you going to be quite lonely in your own area of the universe?
Aren't we told that Celestial beings can continue to have children for ever and ever? So where are you going to put them all, in the basement of your heavenly home?

You as a bishop should know all this stuff.

Do you know what a "principality" is?
It is a country with an inferior monarch. It has a prince, but he is subject to a foreign king. None of the power is his own. In effect he is an agent of the king.

Perhaps it would be helpful to bear that in mind next time you visit the temple.

[Robin Hood]

I think you sum it up well inho.
1. I do believe God was once a mortal man; we can read all about him and his mortal life in the gospels.
2. A devil is not necessary. If so, all those born during the millenium are doomed.

Okay, Robin Hood, since you got everything figured out without accepting scripture, why then, is God going to release Satan at the end of the Millennium? Just for he fun of it? Why is there going to be one of the biggest battles in the history of the world called Gog and Magog after the Millennium?
Never, have I stated that sin is necessary. This is your conclusion, not mine. I did post scripture, however, that says temptation is necessary. Therefore, Satan is necessary. We choose which one to obey every single day of our lives, all day long, 24/7.

I don't know if God sinned. But where did he get his body of flesh and bones?

And if you are lucky enough to become a God creating your own worlds and people to inhabit them as we hear about so much...are you going to be able to tell them that you didn't sin, just once? I do not think so. Is that going to make you any less qualified to become a God? No, not if you believe in the atonement of Christ which renders the penitent clean, spotless, pure and white. Otherwise, what do you believe in? Why spend each day trying to live right if there isn't some hope for a better world?

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

And what about the billions who will be born, live and "die", during the millenium, with no devil around to tempt them? Clearly, according to your theory these people will have a significant disadvantage, complicated further by the the improvement in the natural condition of the earth (less opposition) and the presence of God himself. Poor souls!

People who die during the millennium will be changed in a twinkling of an eye. They will still be on the Earth after the millennium ends and the devil is loosed for a brief period. Thus, all will have the opportunity to be tempted by a devil adversary as part of their probationary test.

-Finrock

Be honest Finrock, you're making this stuff up!

I know about the twinkling, which is why I wrote "die" in quotes. Show me where the scriptures say that these people remain on earth after being twinkled. I don't think you can.
It is also illogical because even if they did remain, they would not be mortal and therefore not subject to the temptations associated with mortality.

[Serragon]

Lucifer was in the garden before the fall. God allowed Lucifer to interact with Adam and Eve. If an adversary was not an essential part of the plan, why was an adversary there? Just because Lucifer rebelled in heaven doesn't explain why he was allowed in the garden and allowed to temp Adam and Eve to rebel.

I don't disagree with your any of your points. I think you might be missing my main point however. What we experience and call the plan of salvation is a summation of peoples choices. We are where we are because of the choices made by everyone, including Lucifer. If anyone had made different choices, God's work would not be frustrated. What we experienced as "the plan" would probably be a bit different though.

An adversary might have been essential. God might have had another way of providing that opposition if Lucifer had not become Satan. I have no idea. But the reason Satan was there was because he rebelled. And if he had not rebelled, God still would have had a way of exalting us. But none of us can know what that was because that was not the path chosen.

Ultimately I don't want to argue, as this isn't really very important.

The reality is that Satan exists and attempts to influence us for evil. Eve ate the fruit and we are fallen. Christ took our sins upon himself and sacrificed Himself because he loved us. This is what matters.

Serragon, I'm not looking to argue. If I have gaps in my knowledge and I can be persuaded that I do, I'll repent and change my thinking to match.

I'm pretty sure I understood what you were saying initially. As it stands I see a hole in your reasoning and I am asking you to fill that hole. I am essentially saying to you that I get what you are saying, however, it doesn't explain this part and if you have an explanation for this part that makes sense to me, I'll accept it and change my thinking if appropriate for me to do so. Perhaps I have just not pondered the issue far enough or perhaps I just can't see what you see, so, I am asking you to explain that part.

You say the reason why Satan was in the garden is because he rebelled. I'm saying that because Lucifer rebelled does not explain why he was in the garden. Couldn't God have bound Lucifer after his rebellion or placed Lucifer some place else? Why did God allow Lucifer in to the garden and allow Lucifer to temp Adam and Eve after Lucifer rebelled? Do you have an explanation for this part? If you do, I would sincerely love to hear it.

-Finrock

I appreciate you Finrock.

I will amend my statement "But the reason Satan was there was because he rebelled" to the following:

Because Lucifer rebelled, he was available to be used by God as an adversary in the Garden.

I don't know why God chose to use him. But If Lucifer had not rebelled and was not used as the adversary in the Garden, God still would have had a way of exalting us. If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God still would have had a way of exalting us. As all of those choices were accounted for in the beginning and were part of the plan.

[Finrock]

Okay, Robin Hood, since you got everything figured out without accepting scripture, why then, is God going to release Satan at the end of the Millennium? Just for he fun of it? Why is there going to be one of the biggest battles in the history of the world called Gog and Magog after the Millennium?
Never, have I stated that sin is necessary. This is your conclusion, not mine. I did post scripture, however, that says temptation is necessary. Therefore, Satan is necessary. We choose which one to obey every single day of our lives, all day long, 24/7.

I don't know if God sinned. But where did he get his body of flesh and bones?

And if you are lucky enough to become a God creating your own worlds and people to inhabit them as we hear about so much...are you going to be able to tell them that you didn't sin, just once? I do not think so. Is that going to make you any less qualified to become a God? No, not if you believe in the atonement of Christ which renders the penitent clean, spotless, pure and white. Otherwise, what do you believe in? Why spend each day trying to live right if there isn't some hope for a better world?

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

And what about the billions who will be born, live and "die", during the millenium, with no devil around to tempt them? Clearly, according to your theory these people will have a significant disadvantage, complicated further by the the improvement in the natural condition of the earth (less opposition) and the presence of God himself. Poor souls!

People who die during the millennium will be changed in a twinkling of an eye. They will still be on the Earth after the millennium ends and the devil is loosed for a brief period. Thus, all will have the opportunity to be tempted by a devil adversary as part of their probationary test.

-Finrock

Be honest Finrock, you're making this stuff up!

I know about the twinkling, which is why I wrote "die" in quotes. Show me where the scriptures say that these people remain on earth after being twinkled. I don't think you can.
It is also illogical because even if they did remain, they would not be mortal and therefore not subject to the temptations associated with mortality.

I don't think I can point to any scripture that says what I'm saying with such specificity. However, where else are they going to go?

You other point is reasonable. Let me consider it thoroughly.

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

Who was it that tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? God? Adam? Who?
If you don't think Satan is necessary, then just how would we have come into being without him?

The serpent tempted Eve. The serpent was under the influence of Satan.

I cannot answer how we would have come to be if Eve had not eaten the fruit. I only know the road that I have actually been on, not all the various possible roads there might have been.

I know there was a way, as in the endowment ceremony God the Father says "IF they give in to temptation, we will provide a Savior for them". Obviously not giving in to temptation was an option.

If Lucifer had not rebelled, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If I had not chosen to commit the myriad sins I have committed in my life, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.


The scriptures you cite and your framework are all from the perspective of the path that was chosen. Because Lucifer rebelled and because Eve ate the fruit we have Satan and we have a Savior. All revelation from that point forward are within that context as that is all that applies to us.

That doesn't mean there was not another way. That does not mean other worlds and peoples have not chosen another way.

The idea that God needed Lucifer, Eve, and Judas to commit sin to bring to pass His work and His Glory is not true. Every choice any of us can or will make is already part of the plan of Salvation. No matter what I or anyone else chooses, the work of the Lord will not be frustrated.

2 Nephi 2:22,23,25
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.


If you check, the above verses (in red) do not agree with your view.

1) Adam would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden
2) all things created must have remained in the same state forever
3) they would have had no children
4) they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin

[freedomforall]

Lucifer was in the garden before the fall. God allowed Lucifer to interact with Adam and Eve. If an adversary was not an essential part of the plan, why was an adversary there? Just because Lucifer rebelled in heaven doesn't explain why he was allowed in the garden and allowed to temp Adam and Eve to rebel.

I don't disagree with your any of your points. I think you might be missing my main point however. What we experience and call the plan of salvation is a summation of peoples choices. We are where we are because of the choices made by everyone, including Lucifer. If anyone had made different choices, God's work would not be frustrated. What we experienced as "the plan" would probably be a bit different though.

An adversary might have been essential. God might have had another way of providing that opposition if Lucifer had not become Satan. I have no idea. But the reason Satan was there was because he rebelled. And if he had not rebelled, God still would have had a way of exalting us. But none of us can know what that was because that was not the path chosen.

Ultimately I don't want to argue, as this isn't really very important.

The reality is that Satan exists and attempts to influence us for evil. Eve ate the fruit and we are fallen. Christ took our sins upon himself and sacrificed Himself because he loved us. This is what matters.

Alma 42:5
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

Alma 12:26
26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

[Serragon]

Lucifer was in the garden before the fall. God allowed Lucifer to interact with Adam and Eve. If an adversary was not an essential part of the plan, why was an adversary there? Just because Lucifer rebelled in heaven doesn't explain why he was allowed in the garden and allowed to temp Adam and Eve to rebel.

I don't disagree with your any of your points. I think you might be missing my main point however. What we experience and call the plan of salvation is a summation of peoples choices. We are where we are because of the choices made by everyone, including Lucifer. If anyone had made different choices, God's work would not be frustrated. What we experienced as "the plan" would probably be a bit different though.

An adversary might have been essential. God might have had another way of providing that opposition if Lucifer had not become Satan. I have no idea. But the reason Satan was there was because he rebelled. And if he had not rebelled, God still would have had a way of exalting us. But none of us can know what that was because that was not the path chosen.

Ultimately I don't want to argue, as this isn't really very important.

The reality is that Satan exists and attempts to influence us for evil. Eve ate the fruit and we are fallen. Christ took our sins upon himself and sacrificed Himself because he loved us. This is what matters.

Alma 42:5
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

Alma 12:26
26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

Which is why they were removed from the garden and the tree of life was warded. Again, because of the choices made by Adam and Eve, God provided what they needed to bring to pass his work and his Glory. These scriptures actually supports my thesis.

[Serragon]

Who was it that tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? God? Adam? Who?
If you don't think Satan is necessary, then just how would we have come into being without him?

The serpent tempted Eve. The serpent was under the influence of Satan.

I cannot answer how we would have come to be if Eve had not eaten the fruit. I only know the road that I have actually been on, not all the various possible roads there might have been.

I know there was a way, as in the endowment ceremony God the Father says "IF they give in to temptation, we will provide a Savior for them". Obviously not giving in to temptation was an option.

If Lucifer had not rebelled, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If I had not chosen to commit the myriad sins I have committed in my life, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.


The scriptures you cite and your framework are all from the perspective of the path that was chosen. Because Lucifer rebelled and because Eve ate the fruit we have Satan and we have a Savior. All revelation from that point forward are within that context as that is all that applies to us.

That doesn't mean there was not another way. That does not mean other worlds and peoples have not chosen another way.

The idea that God needed Lucifer, Eve, and Judas to commit sin to bring to pass His work and His Glory is not true. Every choice any of us can or will make is already part of the plan of Salvation. No matter what I or anyone else chooses, the work of the Lord will not be frustrated.

2 Nephi 2:22,23,25
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.


If you check, the above verses (in red) do not agree with your view.

1) Adam would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden
2) all things created must have remained in the same state forever
3) they would have had no children
4) they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin

I agree with this scripture.

If they had not transgressed, they would have been in the state described.

No where does this scripture state that there was not another way for them to be exalted. It simply says that they would not have entered mortality. And there are numerous scriptures indicating that God's plans will not be frustrated. If they could be then how could we have any sort of faith? What gives faith in God power is that God is perfect. If he is not then faith in Him is not better then faith in anything else.

I am open to the idea that I am incorrect. But as I said earlier, it really doesn't matter. None of this is essential doctrine. It is just speculation.

Adam and Eve did transgress. Lucifer is Satan. Christ is our Savior. This is the reality we must deal with. Whether it had to be our reality or not is really unimportant at this point.

[freedomforall]

Because Lucifer rebelled, he was available to be used by God as an adversary in the Garden.

I don't know why God chose to use him. But If Lucifer had not rebelled and was not used as the adversary in the Garden, God still would have had a way of exalting us. If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God still would have had a way of exalting us. As all of those choices were accounted for in the beginning and were part of the plan.

D&C 29
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—

Moses 4:4 (3–4)
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

[Serragon]

Because Lucifer rebelled, he was available to be used by God as an adversary in the Garden.

I don't know why God chose to use him. But If Lucifer had not rebelled and was not used as the adversary in the Garden, God still would have had a way of exalting us. If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God still would have had a way of exalting us. As all of those choices were accounted for in the beginning and were part of the plan.

D&C 29
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—

Moses 4:4 (3–4)
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

And we've come full circle.

Scripture is often interpreted in such a way that it means what you want it to mean.

I believe we are both doing this at this point. You definately won't convince me by posting the same scriptures repeatedly, and I'm not going to convince you that my interpretation is correct.

Best wishes.

[freedomforall]

Who was it that tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? God? Adam? Who?
If you don't think Satan is necessary, then just how would we have come into being without him?

The serpent tempted Eve. The serpent was under the influence of Satan.

I cannot answer how we would have come to be if Eve had not eaten the fruit. I only know the road that I have actually been on, not all the various possible roads there might have been.

I know there was a way, as in the endowment ceremony God the Father says "IF they give in to temptation, we will provide a Savior for them". Obviously not giving in to temptation was an option.

If Lucifer had not rebelled, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.

If I had not chosen to commit the myriad sins I have committed in my life, God the Father still would have had a way for His work and His Glory to come to pass.


The scriptures you cite and your framework are all from the perspective of the path that was chosen. Because Lucifer rebelled and because Eve ate the fruit we have Satan and we have a Savior. All revelation from that point forward are within that context as that is all that applies to us.

That doesn't mean there was not another way. That does not mean other worlds and peoples have not chosen another way.

The idea that God needed Lucifer, Eve, and Judas to commit sin to bring to pass His work and His Glory is not true. Every choice any of us can or will make is already part of the plan of Salvation. No matter what I or anyone else chooses, the work of the Lord will not be frustrated.

2 Nephi 2:22,23,25
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.


If you check, the above verses (in red) do not agree with your view.

1) Adam would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden
2) all things created must have remained in the same state forever
3) they would have had no children
4) they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin

I agree with this scripture.

If they had not transgressed, they would have been in the state described.

No where does this scripture state that there was not another way for them to be exalted. It simply says that they would not have entered mortality. And there are numerous scriptures indicating that God's plans will not be frustrated. If they could be then how could we have any sort of faith? What gives faith in God power is that God is perfect. If he is not then faith in Him is not better then faith in anything else.

I am open to the idea that I am incorrect. But as I said earlier, it really doesn't matter. None of this is essential doctrine. It is just speculation.

Adam and Eve did transgress. Lucifer is Satan. Christ is our Savior. This is the reality we must deal with. Whether it had to be our reality or not is really unimportant at this point.

Are you saying that scripture, the written word of God, is only speculation?
We as God's children could not be exalted without knowing good and evil. Did not God say that Adam had become like Him, now knowing good and evil upon Adam transgressing?

Moses 4:28
28 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever,

Therefore, God knows good and evil being exalted.

We had to be tempted to sin as D&C 29:39 tells us or we could not learn how to be agents unto ourselves. We could not learn how to act and not be acted upon. And this is not speculation. It is fact.

2 Nephi 2:13-14,26
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

[freedomforall]

Because Lucifer rebelled, he was available to be used by God as an adversary in the Garden.

I don't know why God chose to use him. But If Lucifer had not rebelled and was not used as the adversary in the Garden, God still would have had a way of exalting us. If Eve had not eaten the fruit, God still would have had a way of exalting us. As all of those choices were accounted for in the beginning and were part of the plan.

D&C 29
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—

Moses 4:4 (3–4)
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

And we've come full circle.

Scripture is often interpreted in such a way that it means what you want it to mean.

I believe we are both doing this at this point. You definately won't convince me by posting the same scriptures repeatedly, and I'm not going to convince you that my interpretation is correct.

Best wishes.

Scripture says what it says. It is man, not wanting to believe their meaning, that wrest them so they say what they do not.
Scripture is of no private interpretation, as told us:

2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Joseph Smith put it this way:

...no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

Understanding of scripture must come through the Holy Ghost.

[freedomforall]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not run or guided by speculation. Christ does not teach speculation or expect us to live our lives based on speculation.
The plan of salvation is not based on speculation. Faith is not operational by speculation. Miracles are not wrought by speculation. Christ did not walk on water via speculation.
Speculation has no place in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We may not fully understand all the word of God, or how eternity is operated...or how faith works, or what we become after this life....but speculation is not pure knowledge, or is it light.

[Silver Pie]

Joseph Smith, at the funeral of King Follett:

First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.

What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it.

And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before. It is plain beyond disputation.

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm

This used to be commonly taught in the Church when I was a child, a teenager, and even a young adult.

Edit: I forgot to indicate that the bold in one of the quotes above is my emphasis.

[Silver Pie]

Please tell me which scriptures indicate that we will become God and "create our own worlds and people to inhabit them".

The King Follett sermon seems to indicate that this (become Gods, not God) is so. (Link is in my post, above.)

[freedomforall]

John 7:17,18
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh hisbglory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

So....how does man become to know what the doctrine is and what it means in its true context?

In order to not seek our own glory, what must we do to come to know true doctrine?

Is wresting scripture a wise thing to do?

Is cherry picking a good practice, or are we to know doctrine as if hearing it right out of God's mouth?

[Robin Hood]

Please tell me which scriptures indicate that we will become God and "create our own worlds and people to inhabit them".

The King Follett sermon seems to indicate that this (become Gods, not God) is so. (Link is in my post, above.)

The problem is the provenance of the King Follett discourse is questionable.
It is not scripture and has never been accepted as such.

We cannot base our understanding of the doctrines of salvation on hearsay.

[freedomforall]

Please tell me which scriptures indicate that we will become God and "create our own worlds and people to inhabit them".

The King Follett sermon seems to indicate that this (become Gods, not God) is so. (Link is in my post, above.)

The problem is the provenance of the King Follett discourse is questionable.
It is not scripture and has never been accepted as such.

We cannot base our understanding of the doctrines of salvation on hearsay.

D&C 76:53-60
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given (a)all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, (a)all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

55 (a)all.........please read all references
Dan. 7:14 (13–14);
Matt. 28:18;
John 3:35;
2 Pet. 1:3;
Rev. 2:7;
D&C 50:28 (26–28);
84:38.

59 (a)all.........please read all references
Ps. 84:11;
Luke 12:44;
John 16:15;
3 Ne. 28:10;
D&C 84:38 (37–38).

D&C 132
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

See: Becoming Like God