False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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BruceRGilbert
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False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

The purpose of this thread is to discuss an evolution of "truth" that transpires over time when error creeps in "unawares." It behooves us to review the "scriptural definition" of what truth is in order to establish a "baseline," as it were, of where problems may arise.
Doctrine and Covenants 93:
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
By qualification, whatsoever is more . . . as in the realm of "embellishment," or less . . . as in the realm of "brevity," constitutes a perversion of truth. In fact, in a court of law in following the "law of witnesses," the oath is taken to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth . . . ." This being the case, there is an inherent problem which deserves some consideration.

In this life all we will truly know is our own consciousness. That being said, truth; therefore, becomes "relative." It is what we perceive it to be. Following the definition of truth, our "relative" reality consists of our senses to ascertain a knowledge of things as they are, memory to retain a knowledge of things as they were and imagination; inductive logic to project things as they are to come. Hence, we have the ability to pull onto the stage of our consciousness, the past, present and future. These "conscious" events are of two types: thoughts and feelings; of the mind and of the heart; intellect and emotion. Generally the subject matter will be "ourselves, others, things, or ideas."

I am unable to speak about "truth" without using the term "reality." To me, they are synonyms. "Perception is reality." How many times have we heard this? It has been shown that through "brainwashing, hypnotism, and other means," our perceptions - be they memories, senses, creativity / imaginings can be altered. In fact, there have been many excursions into altered conscious states for various reasons, for example: Timothy Leery, Jose Castenada, channeling, The Urantia Book, etc. Which things I, personally, do not recommend. All of this illustrates that we are all subject to deception, fallibility, and delusion.

We can comprehend that truth is "relative," but it is important, just a well, to realize that truth is, also, "absolute." It is "absolute" in the sense that we all live in a "shared reality." It is for this reason that we are able to communicate using "symbolic" constructs and "uttered" phonemes. However, this, too, is subject to "evolution" over time. What was "hot," yesterday, is now, "cool." Language is being altered over time, as illustrated, with the introduction of new technologies, slang, and culture. It is a wonder that we are able to comprehend one another, at all. It borders on "miraculous" to say the least.

"Relative Truth" is what happens on the "inside." "Absolute Truth" is what happens on the "outside." Because of our "differences," two people can witness an "Absolute Truth" and come away with different "Relative Truths" without entirely agreeing about what transpired. Hence, we have "cutesy" stories about the different perspectives of people who experience different parts of an elephant without realizing that it is the same entity, not being able to come to an agreement or consensus on what reality is.

This constitutes an introduction to a dilemma that we all face in discerning truth from error. There are some things that need to be addressed, even in our most basic understanding of the past. Things may not be as they seem . . . some things we have by way of "tradition" that are more "relative" than "absolute;" that have been altered over time. In our "mutual" examination, lets look at some "scriptural" evidence to warrant a tenable change of perspective.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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The "Absolute Truth" in the past, prior to our conscious awareness, viz a viz, "experience" is difficult to ascertain. "History" in "shared" reality may not be "factual," but traditional and based upon "interpretation" and "heresay."

From Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:
Section Three 1838-39, p.121

Twentieth--"What are the fundamental principles of your religion?"

The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth.

I published the foregoing answers to save myself the trouble of repeating the same a thousand times over and over again. (May 8, 1838.) DHC 3:28-30.
Do we have the most elementary and fundamental principles of our religion wrong? Have we accepted "tradition" and "interpretation" in lieu of facts?

The problem is with Matthew 12:40 and establishing what was meant and, then, whether or not said scripture is valid or invalid. The citation shall be given in context with the quoted dialogue of the time:
Matthew 12:
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
What does this scripture mean and why would it be of concern?

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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What would be the implication if the Son of Man gave a sign and that sign did not come to pass?

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

BruceRGilbert wrote:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
"He rose on the third day"; does that cover three nights?

.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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Tradition versus Prophecy.

Tradition says that Christ was crucified on Friday; however, a careful analysis of the scriptural evidence indicates otherwise. There is no conceivable way that the "three day and three night" prophecy / sign can be attained by adhering to tradition. In Jewish reckoning of time, dusk initiated the next time period; therefore, night preceded the day.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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John 18:
 28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
(The Passover was eaten after dusk by the Savior and Apostles; therefore, it was the “day” of the Passover.)

John 19:
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
John 19:
 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Reference “HIGH” on LDS.org
Jesus arose on the first day of the week. The previous day was the weekly Sabbath. The day before the Sabbath, being also the day after the Passover meal, could be the “high” day. Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:7; Mark 15:42.
This passover period consisted of a "double Sabbath" as it was the Sabbatical Year, and; therefore, Friday was the "HIGH" Sabbath and Saturday would have been the normal Sabbath. This is further collaborated by the following reference - bearing in mind that the Chief Priests and Pharisees were fanatical about normal Sabbath keeping:
Matthew 27:
 62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
 63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
 64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
 65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
 66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.
The next day following the day of preparation was NOT the normal Sabbath, and; therefore, they did not defile themselves in a political involvement as such.

Was Jesus crucified on Thursday instead of Friday? You decide . . . the evidence is before you.

There are other things to be considered about "appendages" and "changes." They will be forthcoming.

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gclayjr
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

Post by gclayjr »

BruceRGilbert,
What does this scripture mean and why would it be of concern?
There seems to be a number of concepts percolating here.

1. Does Man over time slide into false traditions and alter the truth?

A. Yes, That is why we need a continuous line of communication from God to his Children via a prophet seer and revelator. Without that, all will
(and have) allowed false ideas to creep in. Just read some of the threads on this board to see how easy that is. As Paul said "We all see through
a glass darkly".

2. How should we interpret scripture accounts, like Jonah and the whale?

A. I'm not sure here whether your question is in regards to whether the story is a parable, or a true event, or whether you are concerned about the math
regarding 3 days, 3rd day or whatever.

Basically, the important part of the story is the symbolism. That part of it is specifically clarified in the scripture itself. If it was important to discern
whether it was a parable or not, it would have been clarified, if not by scripture, then by God's prophet, if it was important. Otherwise, I guess it
doesn't matter how you interpret it.

I think too many twist themselves up into pretzels trying to square the circle of literalism in regards to the Bible, and truth. I have had many
discussions with those who think that the Earth must have been been created in 144 Earth hours, because that is what Genesis says. The
leaders of the Church have actually clarified this. They have said that the 6 days refers to 6 creative periods, and is no reference to any specific
amount of time. We have 2 threads going on here, where people are somehow trying to square the circle of the Earth being "flat", despite
evidence that anybody who has traveled around the world, can see is fallacious, just to follow the idea of biblical references being a literal
scientific truth.

Most Christians (including official LDS beliefs) believe that all scripture including BOM are the writings of inspired men who are recording
things God has revealed to them. Not, as Muslims believe of the Quran to be from God's mouth to the pen, and word for word pure truth.

There are many clarifications to made to let us know that if there are errors, they are not from God, but from the writings of the men passing along
his messages. In fact 1 Nephi 1:3 says
3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

we should seek inspiration from the Holy spirit in reading it so.


By the way. Many scholars specifically state that a main reason that so many scientific discoveries came from Christian Europe, and so
few from Islamic scholars, is because of this fact.

I hope this brings some clarity to your question.

Regards,

George Clay

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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gclayjr wrote: There seems to be a number of concepts percolating here.

Basically, the important part of the story is the symbolism. That part of it is specifically clarified in the scripture itself. If it was important to discern whether it was a parable or not, it would have been clarified, if not by scripture, then by God's prophet, if it was important. Otherwise, I guess it doesn't matter how you interpret it.
1 Corinthians 1:
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
2 Nephi 28:
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
There are a number of concepts percolating. Chief and foremost is the need to understand that "knowledge" and "knowing" comes from "within." Greater is the "internal" witness of the Holy Ghost, than the "external" witness of the physical world.

The sign was not a parable. It was both, literal and symbolic. It happened even as it was foretold and there is significance in the three days and three nights. It matters to the extent that if it had not occurred, then Christ would have given a false prophecy and would not have been a Prophet. All of God's words are fulfilled.

More to come.

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gclayjr
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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BruceRGilbert,
There are a number of concepts percolating. Chief and foremost is the need to understand that "knowledge" and "knowing" comes from "within." Greater is the "internal" witness of the Holy Ghost, than the "external" witness of the physical world.

The sign was not a parable. It was both, literal and symbolic. It happened even as it was foretold and there is significance in the three days and three nights. It matters to the extent that if it had not occurred, then Christ would have given a false prophecy and would not have been a Prophet. All of God's words are fulfilled.
Isn't it interesting how so many who have received the sure knowledge about various things from the Holy Spirit find their spiritual confirmations are in complete opposition to each other ? Each is convinced that THEY have the true revelation from the HG, and the ones who oppose them are led by lying spirits.

Nobody ever accepts that it might be they who are led by the lying spirit.

Nobody seems to even acknowledge the doubt of possibly of being confused as to whether their answer is from the holy ghost, or something else. Everybody is SO SURE of themselves.

I am not disagreeing with you as to whether Jonah and the whale was a parable or a true story. I actually tend to agree with you. My point is that I would not be too judgmental of one who had a differing view, and not too confident to condemn him or his ideas. I save that for things that are more important.

I think God does so also. If something is important enough, he will, clarify it via his prophet, so that even those whose spiritual connection with the HG, is a bit off channel, or who may not have even taken time to study it out, will be able to know.


Regards,

George Clay

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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gclayjr wrote:
Isn't it interesting how so many who have received the sure knowledge about various things from the Holy Spirit find their spiritual confirmations are in complete opposition to each other ? Each is convinced that THEY have the true revelation from the HG, and the ones who oppose them are led by lying spirits.

Nobody ever accepts that it might be they who are led by the lying spirit.

Nobody seems to even acknowledge the doubt of possibly of being confused as to whether their answer is from the holy ghost, or something else. Everybody is SO SURE of themselves.

I am not disagreeing with you as to whether Jonah and the whale was a parable or a true story. I actually tend to agree with you. My point is that I would not be too judgmental of one who had a differing view, and not too confident to condemn him or his ideas. I save that for things that are more important.

I think God does so also. If something is important enough, he will, clarify it via his prophet, so that even those whose spiritual connection with the HG, is a bit off channel, or who may not have even taken time to study it out, will be able to know.

Regards,

George Clay
The greatest of all "sight" is "in"-sight. When there is contention, it behooves each of us to look within ourselves to determine the origins, thereof. Some questions that need to be asked in that query are, "What is at stake, here?" "Am I feeling threatened ?" "Is it a matter of pride ?" "Is there something here that needs to be defended ?"

As I am sure you are aware, because it is quoted often, Brigham Young made the statement, "He who takes offense when offense isn't intended is a fool and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a bigger fool."

In fact, there are some scriptures that apply toward this very thing:
James 3:
2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
(The rest of that chapter, by the way, is an excellent treatise on a "small thing" that can make or break a "Zion.")

You and I are not perfect men, so some things ought be understood:
1.) We are different - we don't think alike. (Unique consciousnesses.)
2.) God, in His infinite wisdom, has done some social engineering in allowing, permitting, possibly promoting an interaction to occur here. (Something prompted me to post some things and for you to respond - evidently for some purpose.) This would seem to hold true regardless if it were through intervention of, (and we will use the source which you introduced,) some "lying spirit."
3.) God loves variety. (It would get monotonous if we were all the same - there is no "cookie-cutter" mold of perfection; there is perfection in variety. So, perhaps the effort in programming everyone to think, act, and be the same as everyone else is futile. Certainly, this provides for a plethora of entertainment and / or "teaching / learning opportunities" depending upon one's motivations for "time sharing.")
4.) Judgment is meant for identification and not condemnation. (We, inevitably, suffer the results of our own "judgments" upon ourselves - so condemning others isn't a good thing.)
5.) Tolerance is a virtue highly regarded and demonstrated by God.
6.) Patience is a virtue highly regarded and demonstrated by God.
7.) Thick skin is mandatory to face the threat, duress and coercion of any possibly "volatile" / "hostile" environment.
8.) Chi correlations are only plausible when data is numerically quantifiable and not nominally so. (Know your audience.)
9.) I know what this is about and you may not.
10.) We have vested interest.
11.) The only person that we can ever hope to have control over is ourselves, hence, "being able to bridle the whole body."

Titus 1:15 needs to be correlated with Romans 14.

More later. Thank you.

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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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BruceRGilbert wrote:Tradition versus Prophecy.

Tradition says that Christ was crucified on Friday; however, a careful analysis of the scriptural evidence indicates otherwise. There is no conceivable way that the "three day and three night" prophecy / sign can be attained by adhering to tradition. In Jewish reckoning of time, dusk initiated the next time period; therefore, night preceded the day.
Three nights now makes sense when one understands the world is a globe.

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BruceRGilbert wrote:Tradition versus Prophecy.

Tradition says that Christ was crucified on Friday; however, a careful analysis of the scriptural evidence indicates otherwise. There is no conceivable way that the "three day and three night" prophecy / sign can be attained by adhering to tradition. In Jewish reckoning of time, dusk initiated the next time period; therefore, night preceded the day.
I checked the FAQ and didn't see any prohibition to posting a link; just be forewarned much of the linked forum is PG-13, free speech there exceeds common bounds, and https://brave.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is recommended to avoid assault by offensive ads.

The following biblical scripture proves that Jesus was crucified in the middle of the week and that He was in the tomb for 72 hours.

... The Two Sabbath Days ... Now please note the phrase “that sabbath day was on a high day”. This is not the regular Saturday sabbath day, it is a special, high sabbath day. What was so special about this “high day”? It was the Passover! This Passover fell on the Thursday and was followed by the days of unleavened bread as found in Leviticus: ... http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/jesus-na ... y-morning/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This information helped me understand the two sabbaths that allow a 72 hour period.

Strangely enough I was married on the 10th day of the 7th month which is known in the old testament as the sabbath of sabbaths.

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You may want to pause this presentation . . . the slides will change every 10 seconds. If you do not and this is not ample time to read or digest the information:

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Re: False Traditions and "Truth Alterations:" Restoration through Reformation?

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gclayjr wrote: February 16th, 2017, 6:49 am BruceRGilbert,
...
Isn't it interesting how so many who have received the sure knowledge about various things from the Holy Spirit find their spiritual confirmations are in complete opposition to each other ? Each is convinced that THEY have the true revelation from the HG, and the ones who oppose them are led by lying spirits.

Nobody ever accepts that it might be they who are led by the lying spirit.

Nobody seems to even acknowledge the doubt of possibly of being confused as to whether their answer is from the holy ghost, or something else. Everybody is SO SURE of themselves.

I am not disagreeing with you as to whether Jonah and the whale was a parable or a true story. I actually tend to agree with you. My point is that I would not be too judgmental of one who had a differing view, and not too confident to condemn him or his ideas. I save that for things that are more important.

I think God does so also. If something is important enough, he will, clarify it via his prophet, so that even those whose spiritual connection with the HG, is a bit off channel, or who may not have even taken time to study it out, will be able to know.

Regards,

George Clay
A quote I had a great laugh over, and will remember every time I see your name--in a flat earth thread, or a 9/11 thread, or a ... :))
I know, obviously not the way you meant it. But definitely the way I take it. ;)

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