1882 Oracle received by John Taylor about Celestial Marriage

[jwharton]

FURTHER MARRIAGE INSTRUCTIONS
Revelation Received Sunday/Monday,
June 25/26, 1882
By President John Taylor
(John Taylor Papers, LDS Archives)
At Salt Lake City, Utah Territory

1 Question: Is the law of Celestial Marriage a law given to this nation or to the world?
2 Answer: No-- in no other sense than as the gospel is given and in accordance with the laws thereof. So far as it is made known unto men, it is made know unto them as the gospel is made known unto them, and is part of the New and Everlasting Covenant.
3 And it is only those who receive the gospel that are able to, or capable of, entering into this covenant.
4 Have I not said through My servant Joseph Smith that all kingdoms are governed by law? And if they receive not the law of the gospel, they cannot participate in the blessings of Celestial marriage, which pertains to Mine elect.
5 No person or people or nation can enter into the principle of Celestial marriage unless they come in by Me, saith the LORD, and obey the law of My gospel through the medium of him who is appointed unto this power as made known unto My people through My servant Joseph in a Revelation on the eternity of the marriage covenant, including the plurality of wives.
6 I have therein stated that , "all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same; for behold I reveal unto you a New and an Everlasting Covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into My glory."
7 Furthermore, "And as pertaining to the New and Everlasting Covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of My glory; and he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God."
8 It is again written that, "all kingdoms have a law given."
9 The Celestial kingdom, including the promise of Eternal Life, pertains to, "the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ, His Son."
10 Therefore, such must be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that they may be prepared for the Celestial glory.
11 "For he who cannot abide the law of a Celestial kingdom, cannot abide a Celestial glory;"
12 "And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory;"
13 "And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore, he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore, he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."
14 Each of the persons inhabiting these several kingdoms shall be quickened by the same power that pertains to the kingdom that they are destined to inherit, whether Celestial, terrestrial, or telestial; and shall receive of their respective glories.
15 And again it is written, "And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law, and perfected and sanctified by the same."
16 "That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment."

17 It is further written, speaking of Celestial marriage, "And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations that are not made and entered into, and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment, through the medium of Mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto My servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred) are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead."
18 This law is a Celestial law, and pertains to a Celestial kingdom. It is a New and Everlasting Covenant, and appertains to thrones, principalities, powers, dominions, and eternal increase in the Celestial kingdom of God.
19 You are not now sent to proclaim this principle to the United States, nor to the world, nor to urge it upon them. It is not for them as a nation or nations, only as many as accept the law of My gospel, and are governed thereby.
20 Behold, if you were to preach this principle unto them, and they said, we accept it, could you then administer it unto them? Verily I say unto you, nay.
21 Have I not said, "Behold, Mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion."
22 "Will I accept of an offering, saith the LORD, that is not made in My name?"
23 "Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?"
24 "And will I appoint unto you, saith the LORD, except it be by law, even as I and My Father ordained unto you, before the world was?"
25 "I am the LORD thy God, and I give unto you this commandment: that no man shall come unto the Father but by Me or by My word, which is My law, saith the LORD."
26 "And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever that may be, that are not by Me, saith the LORD, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection saith the LORD your God."
27 "For whatsoever things remain are by Me, and whatsoever things are not by Me shall be shaken and destroyed."
28 " Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by Me nor by My word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world."
29 You ask, what shall we do? Thus saith the LORD, obey My law and seek not to become a law unto yourselves, nor trust to outside influences; but seek in the way appointed to the Lord your God.
30 Ye are My spokesmen, I am your God; and as I have before said, I now again say: Henceforth do as I shall command you.
31 Concerning the course taken by the United States, they have a right to reject this law themselves, as they have a right to reject the gospel; but it is contrary to the provisions of the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, for them to prohibit you from obeying it.
32 Therefore, abide in My law which I have revealed unto you, saith the Lord God, and contend for your rights by every legal and constitutional method and in accordance with the institutions, laws, and Constitution of the United States.
33 Be humble, be faithful, be diligent; seek unto Me and it shall be made known unto you from time to time what My will is pertaining to this matter.
34 I am the Lord your God, hearken to Me, and obey My law, and your enemies shall be confounded, and My kingdoms shall be victorious.
Even so, Amen.

[jwharton]

I put this oracle here in hopes people will read it and then share their impression of it and their understanding of it as well.

I'm going to follow up with a bit of a commentary on it so that, for what it's worth, others can consider my point of view too.

[Melissa]

Sounds like alot of law and order. Seems pretty clear. Seems that we will inherit whatever afterlife we are worthy of and have lived to obtain. Also sounds like the gospel is not to be forced but once one takes the oaths and covenants, they are obligated to follow through. It also sounds like people are subject to varying degrees of laws which are a reflection of the promises they have made themselves to follow. It also sounds like the celestial kingdom is difficult to obtain.

[jwharton]

1 Question: Is the law of Celestial Marriage a law given to this nation or to the world?
2 Answer: No-- in no other sense than as the gospel is given and in accordance with the laws thereof. So far as it is made known unto men, it is made know unto them as the gospel is made known unto them, and is part of the New and Everlasting Covenant.
3 And it is only those who receive the gospel that are able to, or capable of, entering into this covenant.

We learn here that Celestial Marriage is only for those who are members of the New and Everlasting Covenant.
This means that you must be a temple endowed member of the Church who has entered into this Covenant.

4 Have I not said through My servant Joseph Smith that all kingdoms are governed by law? And if they receive not the law of the gospel, they cannot participate in the blessings of Celestial marriage, which pertains to Mine elect.
5 No person or people or nation can enter into the principle of Celestial marriage unless they come in by Me, saith the LORD, and obey the law of My gospel through the medium of him who is appointed unto this power as made known unto My people through My servant Joseph in a Revelation on the eternity of the marriage covenant, including the plurality of wives.
6 I have therein stated that , "all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same; for behold I reveal unto you a New and an Everlasting Covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into My glory."

Here the plurality of wives is explicitly mentioned as being an eternal part of the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage.
The plurality aspect is not an expendable portion of the New and Everlasting Covenant, but is an essential and eternal part of it.
Therefore, if someone thinks they can reject the plurality aspect of this Covenant and not be damned, they are sorely mistaken.
All who reject the plurality aspect of Celestial Marriage are refusing to abide this law and shall not be permitted into God's glory.

7 Furthermore, "And as pertaining to the New and Everlasting Covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of My glory; and he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God."

This means fighting against the plurality of wives and denying it as a part of the Marriage Covenant is a ticket straight to hell.

8 It is again written that, "all kingdoms have a law given."
9 The Celestial kingdom, including the promise of Eternal Life, pertains to, "the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ, His Son."
10 Therefore, such must be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that they may be prepared for the Celestial glory.
11 "For he who cannot abide the law of a Celestial kingdom, cannot abide a Celestial glory;"
12 "And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory;"
13 "And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore, he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore, he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."
14 Each of the persons inhabiting these several kingdoms shall be quickened by the same power that pertains to the kingdom that they are destined to inherit, whether Celestial, terrestrial, or telestial; and shall receive of their respective glories.

This is why after the Manifesto the Church no longer received any terrestrial or celestial ministration.
Because the Church rejected the higher laws, our leaders only receive telestial ministration by the Holy Ghost.
This means that there was a complete cessation of "thus saith the Lord" oracles because the Church became damned as God said it would be.
And, the gift to receive oracles became removed from the Church at that time the higher laws were removed.
This has the implication that the Church President was no longer the Lord's Anointed Prophet any more.
Exactly what the Official Declaration 1 says is what happened, which is the Lord removed Wilford Woodruff out of that mantle of authority.
The Church retains all of the keys that pertain to the Church, but all other authority to lead the entirety of Zion was removed at that time.
How can the Father lead and guide His people to Celestial glory through the Church when it no longer qualifies for Celestial ministration?

15 And again it is written, "And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law, and perfected and sanctified by the same."
16 "That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment."

Through the neglect of the Saints to abide and build up the law of Celestial Plural Marriage, they were in God's eyes seeking to be a law unto themselves. So, instead of being perfected and sanctified by that law, they found themselves overcome by the world and trodden down to such an extent that the kingdoms of the world prevailed against the Saints. This is why the Manifesto became necessary, not because it was giving way for a superior plan to come in its place. The Manifesto was the punishment and condemnation upon a people who were not living faithfully to keep all the commandments of the Father to build His Kingdom. Thus, as this oracle clearly says, all who break Celestial law, for any reason, prevent themselves from being sanctified by the laws they have rejected and/or broken. And, so long as they maintain that attitude of rejection (contempt) for the Law of Celestial Plural Marriage, they also cannot be sanctified by mercy, justice or judgment. This means that they are toast, unless they repent of their rejection of God's Laws.

This means even if the scourge and judgment sweeps over the land and smites those in rebellion, they won't be redeemed even by that which they have been caused to suffer. These are those who shall raise their fists and curse God and wish to die.

By entering into solemn covenant with God to risk everything to build up His Kingdom according to His Law and then turning against such and becoming an enemy to God and God's Law, they put themselves beyond being able to be redeemed. These are who are of the body of Cain who shall crucify the Son of Man afresh and put Him to an open shame. These are who put to death the members of Abel's body whose only (alleged) crime is they are adamant to hold true and faithful to the Father's Celestial Plan.

There are other oracles in the decade of the 1880's that indicate this War in Heaven dynamic of Cain vs. Abel is literally playing out again right now so I hope eyes will be opened to see it as a literal tangible reality in motion. I've talked about this some in my thread claiming that the advent of the Son of Man came circa 1890 in connection with the official declaration and the Manifesto. The warning here is abundantly clear that Perdition awaits those who seek to become a law unto themselves because they reject the Celestial Law and rebel against the Father.

17 It is further written, speaking of Celestial marriage, "And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations that are not made and entered into, and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, of him who is anointed [temple sealers], both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment, through the medium of Mine anointed, whom I have appointed[Lord's Anointed Prophet who receives oracles] on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto My servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred) are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead."

The Lord is talking about the mantle of authority that only He appoints, which is not any mantle of authority within the body of the Church.
The President of the Church is "chosen by the body" and upheld by the confidence and sustaining of the body so this is something else here.
It is certainly within the Lord's prerogative to remove a Church President out of the place of being the Lord's Anointed Prophet if He chooses.
And, because oracles ceased after the Manifesto, it should be abundantly clear that this is in fact exactly what happened per OD-1.
Therefore, this begs the question, where did the mantle of being the Lord's Anointed Prophet go to if the Church lost the gift to receive oracles?
This question is answered in the thread: Advent of the Son of Man has already happened.

18 This law is a Celestial law, and pertains to a Celestial kingdom. It is a New and Everlasting Covenant, and appertains to thrones, principalities, powers, dominions, and eternal increase in the Celestial kingdom of God.

This amplifies the fact that you cannot break off a piece of this Covenant because it is Everlasting.
Any who suppose such can be broken off without consequences is not paying very close attention.
The seed it is designed to facilitate raising up is the choice seed of the Celestial spirits who are waiting to come fourth.
They will not be sent to this earth until the Father's Kingdom is built up and worthy of them coming here to join us.
We have the opportunity to be worthy and qualified to become who they look up to as their Patriarchs (and implied Matriarchs).
This is the kind of eternal increase I would be greatly honored to qualify to have as my eternal posterity.

19 You are not now sent to proclaim this principle to the United States, nor to the world, nor to urge it upon them. It is not for them as a nation or nations, only as many as accept the law of My gospel, and are governed thereby.
20 Behold, if you were to preach this principle unto them, and they said, we accept it, could you then administer it unto them? Verily I say unto you, nay.
21 Have I not said, "Behold, Mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion."
22 "Will I accept of an offering, saith the LORD, that is not made in My name?"
23 "Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?"
24 "And will I appoint unto you, saith the LORD, except it be by law, even as I and My Father ordained unto you, before the world was?"
25 "I am the LORD thy God, and I give unto you this commandment: that no man shall come unto the Father but by Me or by My word, which is My law, saith the LORD."
26 "And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever that may be, that are not by Me, saith the LORD, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection saith the LORD your God."
27 "For whatsoever things remain are by Me, and whatsoever things are not by Me shall be shaken and destroyed."

God is extremely serious about the fact that unless something has its standing by His Word, meaning via a "thus saith the Lord" oracle, then it will be accounted as having been ordained of men and that if it is not ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise and by His Word through revelation (an oracle) and by commandment, then it shall not stand.

Since the Church lost the gift to receive oracles, it also lost the capacity to seal and ratify by revelation and commandment anything that actually meets this standard the Lord requires. Of course, this doesn't mean everything the Church has done since 1890 as junk. It simply means that every ordinance it has performed yet awaits ratification to that level of purity and authority. This is why proxy work is so important because when Zion is cleansed and set in order, all ordinations, excommunications, etc. will be reviewed and scrutinized based purely upon the Laws of the Celestial Kingdom.

Those who dedicated their lives to abiding Celestial Law shall be justified and pardoned, even if they were excommunicated, and all of their blessings shall be restored. This is because they were willing to give up their lives, and even their spiritual life by way of receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, for the sake of holding true to the Father's Celestial Plan. There is NO way people who received true revelation to participate in plural marriage who went ahead and did so with purity of heart and who were excommunicated simply for that are going to be denied their Celestial blessings. The Lord's Anointed Prophet will posthumously seal them up to Eternal Life for their unwavering faithfulness.

28 " Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by Me nor by My word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world."

This also pertains to everyone who has been sealed in the temples but who has not had their sealing ratified by the Lord's Anointed Prophet.
If there isn't a man who receives "thus saith the Lord" oracles, then the level of ratification mentioned above in verse 17 is unavailable.
There must be a man somewhere who is the Lord's Anointed Prophet who does receive Celestial Ministration as oracles who can do this.
And, there is only one man upon the earth at a given time who has the power to receive such a ministration to ratify a couple's sealing.
This Church lost this power and gift in 1890, but it was given to another as I explain in the thread about the advent of the Son of Man.

29 You ask, what shall we do? Thus saith the LORD, obey My law and seek not to become a law unto yourselves, nor trust to outside influences; but seek in the way appointed to the Lord your God.
30 Ye are My spokesmen, I am your God; and as I have before said, I now again say: Henceforth do as I shall command you.

The commandment that follows this is a very important one that all of our leaders are responsible to accomplish.

31 Concerning the course taken by the United States, they have a right to reject this law themselves, as they have a right to reject the gospel; but it is contrary to the provisions of the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, for them to prohibit you from obeying it.

Here in this verse God clearly says if they deem plural marriage illegal that it would be in violation of the Constitution.
God is the supreme author of the Constitution so He would know what is and what is not Constitutional.
If plural marriage was constitutional in 1882 then by all means it should be deemed constitutional in 2017!
So, all those who seek to keep plural marriage unconstitutional are enemies of the Constitution and of God!

32 Therefore, abide in My law which I have revealed unto you, saith the Lord God, and contend for your rights by every legal and constitutional method and in accordance with the institutions, laws, and Constitution of the United States.
33 Be humble, be faithful, be diligent; seek unto Me and it shall be made known unto you from time to time what My will is pertaining to this matter.
34 I am the Lord your God, hearken to Me, and obey My law, and your enemies shall be confounded, and My kingdoms shall be victorious.
Even so, Amen.

So, all Latter-day Saints have the responsibility to CONTEND FOR YOUR RIGHTS and most especially our Church President does because it is his duty to "be like unto Moses".

If it can be discovered that our Church President or any of our general authorities are neglecting to contend for our rights to fully embrace the fullness of the Father's Celestial Marriage Law, then a controversy should be raised up and have them either perform their duties properly or to be removed from their offices. If we sustain them in them being the ones to fight against the Father's Celestial Order then we are sustaining our own damnation and ultimate destruction.

[Melissa]

Brigham Young said that there will be men in the CK with only one wife. So, if it's a part of the plan, what part specifically does it cover? It is not required to have exaltation. So to me it's an option, not required to have the plan work.

[jwharton]

Brigham Young said that there will be men in the CK with only one wife.
So, if it's a part of the plan, what part specifically does it cover?
It is not required to have exaltation.
So to me it's an option, not required to have the plan work.

Glad to see you are drawing a distinction here as it does deserve to be highlighted.

And, after I acknowledge and support the distinction you are making here, please go back and re-read the oracle and my commentary concerning it and let me know if you feel like either is out of harmony with the distinction. Okay?

I agree that just because plural marriage is a part of the New and Everlasting Covenant of Celestial Marriage that it doesn't mean everyone has to have a marriage that involves more than one wife to receive exaltation.

We are to obey those things that are personally relevant to us and our circumstances, which for most people will NOT include plural marriage.
But, we are to abide every single aspect of the Celestial Marriage Law, which means we must be fully approving of all of the aspects of the Law.

If people's circumstances do not necessitate plural marriage, then they are not disobeying Celestial Plural Marriage and are counted as obeying it.
If anyone takes it upon themselves to speak against Celestial Plural Marriage, even if they are obeying it, then they are not abiding it.
We are required to both obey (when necessary) and abide (at all times) the fullness of the New and Everlasting Covenant, including plural marriage.
So, while the laws of the land are arrayed against the Saints to hinder them in obeying the law, all should yet ABIDE the Law.

[rewcox]

If it can be discovered that our Church President or any of our general authorities are neglecting to contend for our rights to fully embrace the fullness of the Father's Celestial Marriage Law, then a controversy should be raised up and have them either perform their duties properly or to be removed from their offices. If we sustain them in them being the ones to fight against the Father's Celestial Order then we are sustaining our own damnation and ultimate destruction.

What is your standing with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? Are you a member? Have you been a member.

I suggest to you that what you have written in a public setting, would get you excommunicated for apostasy if you are a member.

I know that we are lead by Christ's Prophet today, and have been since Joseph Smith. The Gospel of Christ brings joy and gladness.

What you preach brings fear and doesn't edify.

The fulness of the Gospel is not having more than 1 wife. Sorry Charlie.

7 Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed;

8 But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.

23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

[jwharton]

If it can be discovered that our Church President or any of our general authorities are neglecting to contend for our rights to fully embrace the fullness of the Father's Celestial Marriage Law, then a controversy should be raised up and have them either perform their duties properly or to be removed from their offices. If we sustain them in them being the ones to fight against the Father's Celestial Order then we are sustaining our own damnation and ultimate destruction.

What is your standing with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? Are you a member? Have you been a member.

I suggest to you that what you have written in a public setting, would get you excommunicated for apostasy if you are a member.

I know that we are lead by Christ's Prophet today, and have been since Joseph Smith. The Gospel of Christ brings joy and gladness.

What you preach brings fear and doesn't edify.

The fulness of the Gospel is not having more than 1 wife. Sorry Charlie.

7 Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed;

8 But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.

23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

Your argument is totally lame.

Standing up for our leaders to have integrity to the oracles and their duties constitutes grounds for apostasy?
Suggesting we raise up a controversy against them and have a trial over them constitutes grounds for apostasy?

You have got to be kidding me, but sadly I'm sure you aren't.

Aren't you aware the Lord revealed in D&C 107 our responsibility to do what I said if our leaders are believed to be transgressors?

What you are implying is like saying if President Trump is believed to have disobeyed the Constitution egregiously that any who attempt to have him impeached should be deemed a traitor and hung for treason simply for the fact that they wished to raise up a controversy to that end.

What you are implying in what you are saying is that the Church is governed by men who are completely unaccountable and who should be treated as if they are infallible. Not only is this in direct violation of the Law of God pertaining to the government of the Church, this is the very core of the doctrine of Luciferianism. It is the plan of force and tyranny that puts a dictator in place who is not accountable to those he governs.

You are calling for tyranny!

You are calling for the innocent blood of a spiritual patriot to be shed!

[Melissa]

One cannot live or accept polygamy and be a member of the LDS church.

[Mark]

"AUB members regard the LDS Church as an important vehicle in spreading Mormonism's introductory teachings, particularly through the LDS Church's missionary program and the widespread publication of the Book of Mormon. The group's founder, Rulon C. Allred, told a fundamentalist congregation in 1966: "We are specifically instructed through John Taylor by Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, and by Joseph Musser as well that we are not to interfere ... with the function of the [LDS] Church."[4] On November 16, 1966, in another discourse, he commented: "[We] are not in a position to dictate to the [LDS] Church, or to presume that we preside over [LDS Church] President David O. McKay, or that we can send missionaries into the fields of labor, or that we can in any way dictate the affairs of the Church.”[5] "God’s Church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," Allred declared.[6] He further explained in 1975: "We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, no matter who may decry it or who may deny it."[7] "We are functioning within the spiritual confines of the Church," he commented, "but we are definitely outside of its legal organization."[8]

Under his leadership, the Allred group did no missionary work or temple work, leaving those responsibilities to the LDS Church. He predicted in 1975 that "the time is at hand when God is going to intervene in the matter, and the temples will be opened to us, and we will have our endowments and do our own work for our dead." Under his brother Owen's leadership, the AUB constructed its own endowment houses for ordinance work;[9] this was likely in response to the LDS Church's policy change which extended priesthood and temple blessings to all races.[10][11]

Drew Briney, an author on Mormon polygamy and an AUB appeals attorney,[12] summarized AUB members' general sentiment toward the LDS Church:

The "AUB" accepts the mainstream LDS Church as Christ's Church but views it as "out of order" just as the Israelites were "out of order" at the time of Christ—still accepted, just somewhat prodigal. Its members are taught that they should not disparage the LDS Church and its leaders teach that "the mother church" should be respected by the "father" (AUB or "the priesthood") the same as a husband should take care of and honor a wayward wife inasmuch as he is able to do so. Incidentally, AUB's leaders commonly concede that no organization is exempt from being out of order to some degree (including the AUB) but they emphasize that the LDS Church has abandoned many doctrines taught by the early brethren—not just plural marriage. Some of these doctrines include: Adam-God teachings; united order or "full consecration"; proper conferral of the priesthood; the ban on blacks receiving the priesthood; the doctrine of dissolution; the kingdom of God as a separate organization from the Church; the ordinance of rebaptism; the ordinance of mother’s blessings; giving a complete temple endowment (as opposed to the shortened version now administered in the LDS Church); the wearing of a full length, unaltered garment; the unchanging nature of all ordinances; prayer circles outside of the temple; the law of adoption (sealing men to men as father/son); and the teaching that a living prophet can never lead you astray—even if he strays from teachings and revelations of previous prophets.[13]"


D&C 56:4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.

[jwharton]

One cannot live or accept polygamy and be a member of the LDS church.

I recognize the Church excommunicates those who actually implement it,
but what do you mean by saying they cannot accept it either?

[jwharton]

"AUB members regard the LDS Church as an important vehicle in spreading Mormonism's introductory teachings, particularly through the LDS Church's missionary program and the widespread publication of the Book of Mormon. The group's founder, Rulon C. Allred, told a fundamentalist congregation in 1966: "We are specifically instructed through John Taylor by Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, and by Joseph Musser as well that we are not to interfere ... with the function of the [LDS] Church."[4] On November 16, 1966, in another discourse, he commented: "[We] are not in a position to dictate to the [LDS] Church, or to presume that we preside over [LDS Church] President David O. McKay, or that we can send missionaries into the fields of labor, or that we can in any way dictate the affairs of the Church.”[5] "God’s Church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," Allred declared.[6] He further explained in 1975: "We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, no matter who may decry it or who may deny it."[7] "We are functioning within the spiritual confines of the Church," he commented, "but we are definitely outside of its legal organization."[8]

Under his leadership, the Allred group did no missionary work or temple work, leaving those responsibilities to the LDS Church. He predicted in 1975 that "the time is at hand when God is going to intervene in the matter, and the temples will be opened to us, and we will have our endowments and do our own work for our dead." Under his brother Owen's leadership, the AUB constructed its own endowment houses for ordinance work;[9] this was likely in response to the LDS Church's policy change which extended priesthood and temple blessings to all races.[10][11]

Drew Briney, an author on Mormon polygamy and an AUB appeals attorney,[12] summarized AUB members' general sentiment toward the LDS Church:

The "AUB" accepts the mainstream LDS Church as Christ's Church but views it as "out of order" just as the Israelites were "out of order" at the time of Christ—still accepted, just somewhat prodigal. Its members are taught that they should not disparage the LDS Church and its leaders teach that "the mother church" should be respected by the "father" (AUB or "the priesthood") the same as a husband should take care of and honor a wayward wife inasmuch as he is able to do so. Incidentally, AUB's leaders commonly concede that no organization is exempt from being out of order to some degree (including the AUB) but they emphasize that the LDS Church has abandoned many doctrines taught by the early brethren—not just plural marriage. Some of these doctrines include: Adam-God teachings; united order or "full consecration"; proper conferral of the priesthood; the ban on blacks receiving the priesthood; the doctrine of dissolution; the kingdom of God as a separate organization from the Church; the ordinance of rebaptism; the ordinance of mother’s blessings; giving a complete temple endowment (as opposed to the shortened version now administered in the LDS Church); the wearing of a full length, unaltered garment; the unchanging nature of all ordinances; prayer circles outside of the temple; the law of adoption (sealing men to men as father/son); and the teaching that a living prophet can never lead you astray—even if he strays from teachings and revelations of previous prophets.[13]"

These are informative quotes.
I have no affiliation with the AUB, in case you might be wondering.
I consider the AUB as Abel's dead body that refuses burial.
And, not just so to speak, but a literal and tangible repeat.

D&C 56:4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.

All who rebel against the Father's Plan reap the rewards of those to whom they have listed to obey.

[Melissa]

One cannot live or accept polygamy and be a member of the LDS church.

I recognize the Church excommunicates those who actually implement it,
but what do you mean by saying they cannot accept it either?

I do not know where to find the original story but there was a girl who wanted to be baptized but she was not allowed to because she didn't denounce her parents "practice" of polygamy.

Maybe someone else knows?

[Lizzy60]

http://www.ldsdaily.com/world/daughter- ... d-baptism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What I found most interesting was that she said that they hoped she would reconsider when her family was no longer in the public eye.

[brianj]

If people's circumstances do not necessitate plural marriage, then they are not disobeying Celestial Plural Marriage and are counted as obeying it.
If anyone takes it upon themselves to speak against Celestial Plural Marriage, even if they are obeying it, then they are not abiding it.
We are required to both obey (when necessary) and abide (at all times) the fullness of the New and Everlasting Covenant, including plural marriage.
So, while the laws of the land are arrayed against the Saints to hinder them in obeying the law, all should yet ABIDE the Law.

So, in other words, if people live in a place where plural marriage is illegal, at a time when the anointed leaders of the church are commanded to not permit the members of the church to enter into plural marriage, then they are counted as obeying that law?

[Sarah]

But, we are to abide every single aspect of the Celestial Marriage Law, which means we must be fully approving of all of the aspects of the Law.

Kind of hard to live every aspect and part of "the law" when the Lord hasn't revealed all of it to us.

Sec. 132:

58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.

66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present.

We see here that there is more to the "law of the priesthood," that we do not now have. Does that mean we don't have all of the New and Everlasting Covenant? I don't believe so. I believe that we have the ability to enter into this covenant and keep the laws pertaining to this covenant, but I think we need to recognize that the "law of the priesthood" does not share the exact same definition as "The New and Everlasting Covenant." If they were exactly the same, then we have only received part of the New and Everlasting Covenant. I think the answer is to not equate the two phrases. Let's take a look at sec. 132 to see what I mean. I'll comment in red.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Notice here how there is a break in thought outlining the conditions of "this law." Verse's 8 - 27 explain the conditions and blessings and the "why" associated with verse 7, or "the law" associated with the New and Everlasting Covenant.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word (authority), which is my law, saith the Lord.

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

Why does the Lord say now that he will give the law of his Holy Priesthood, when he has already just given "the law?"

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

The Law of the Priesthood includes conditions set forth for the progression, glory and multiplying of seed and individuals. It is all based on giving and receiving under certain conditions.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

In order for your plural wives to be accounted to you for righteousness, you must be given them by the Lord, by His word and authority, and abide in His law, or His conditions of the Covenant and the Law of the Priesthood. You cannot take them for yourself. He provides, or gives the wives. This is done through specific commandment and is part of "The Law of the Holy Priesthood"

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

We certainly don't obey this part of the law. Should we be lobbying for this too?

42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.

43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a vow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.

44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.

45 For I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.

46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.

47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.

48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.

49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.

50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac. (Escape from what?)

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer (give) unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. (This commandment to Emma was his escape)

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

Notice that the Lord is giving Emma a specific commandment here, and not referring to these charges as part of "the Law," but that if she obeys she will be abiding in the law.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for Satan seeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his exaltation and glory.

58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto[/b].

59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.

60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.

66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.



I think if you read this and separate the phrases and meanings of "New and Everlasting Covenant," "Law of the Priesthood," and "commandment" you can see how the Lord would be able to have His people abide and keep the Covenant, by doing everything by His word and under His authority, while he sets the specific conditions and specific commandments within the "Law of the Priesthood," which even includes conditions He has not yet revealed to us.

[gclayjr]

jwharton, all

This is why after the Manifesto the Church no longer received any terrestrial or celestial ministration.
Because the Church rejected the higher laws, our leaders only receive telestial ministration by the Holy Ghost.
This means that there was a complete cessation of "thus saith the Lord" oracles because the Church became damned as God said it would be.

There seems to be a common repetition here on LDS Forum of the same heresies over and over., and they are not even new ideas. Natasha, started a well thought out thread about this 2 years ago.

viewtopic.php?p=569354

This included a reference to a talk by J. Ruben Clark.

http://scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/Cla ... pture.html

Considering the crap that we have been repeated bombarded with over, and over, and over, recently by people like jwharton, and Amonhi, and others who are trying to deceptively have it both ways by claiming that they DO support the LDS Church, and the general authorities, then deny that those leaders can actually BE the Prophet Seer and revelator for the Church or the world, or some invented sophistry like ORACLE, I think this whole thread, and particularly the talk by J. Ruben Clark is worth reading.

By the way, none of the new revelations seem to have "verily, verily I say unto you" or over the word "thou" in them either.

Regards,

George Clay

[rewcox]

You are nuts. What is your standing in the Church?

For those who were excommunicated in your scenario, they wanted to continue polygamy, so they were excommunicated.

If you are not a member, you are just anti-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Surely you have a better response than a personal insult...
Again, your argument is LAME, not to mention BORING.

I find our scriptures, including the Manifestos, very informative. I also appreciate the conference addresses and the music. I enjoy having a Living Prophet and Christ's Apostles to give direction and guide Christ's Church in our day, all under Christ.

Thomas Monson has said, "Your attitude determines your altitude". See The Blessing of Work

There was a man who worked for the United States Treasury Department. His job was investigating cases where counterfeit money was involved. He was so good at what he did that all it took was a quick look at a bill and he could tell if it was genuine or counterfeit. One evening at a press conference following his breaking up of a major counterfeit ring, one of the reporters directed this statement to him: “You must spend a lot of time studying counterfeit bills to recognize them so easily.”

His reply to this was, “No, I don’t ever study counterfeit bills. I spend my time studying genuine bills; then the imperfection is easy to recognize.”

So it is with the gospel, dear brothers and sisters. We are here to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no need to study the counterfeit, for we have the truth.

You fly in a low altitude because you are consumed with a counterfeit. This lends itself to fear. Focusing your time on conterfeit philosophies will not bring happiness or eternal life.

Christ's Gospel is about joy and coming to Christ.

Don't be nuts, come back to the real deal.

[Lizzy60]

jwharton, all

This is why after the Manifesto the Church no longer received any terrestrial or celestial ministration.
Because the Church rejected the higher laws, our leaders only receive telestial ministration by the Holy Ghost.
This means that there was a complete cessation of "thus saith the Lord" oracles because the Church became damned as God said it would be.

There seems to be a common repetition here on LDS Forum of the same heresies over and over., and they are not even new ideas. Natasha, started a well thought out thread about this 2 years ago.

viewtopic.php?p=569354

This included a reference to a talk by J. Ruben Clark.

http://scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/Cla ... pture.html

Considering the crap that we have been repeated bombarded with over, and over, and over, recently by people like jwharton, and Amonhi, and others who are trying to deceptively have it both ways by claiming that they DO support the LDS Church, and the general authorities, then deny that those leaders can actually BE the Prophet Seer and revelator for the Church or the world, or some invented sophistry like ORACLE, I think this whole thread, and particularly the talk by J. Ruben Clark is worth reading.

By the way, none of the new revelations seem to have "verily, verily I say unto you" or over the word "thou" in them either.

Regards,

George Clay

Oracles are "invented sophistry"? I don't believe the giver of oracles would agree.

[gclayjr]

lizzy60,

Oracles are "invented sophistry"? I don't believe the giver of oracles would agree.

You mean Apollo?

[gclayjr]

Lizzy60,

Oracles are "invented sophistry"? I don't believe the giver of oracles would agree.

OK a more serious question.

Who came up with the idea that there is something different between being "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator", and being an "Oracle"?

Regards,

George Clay

[Melissa]

Lizzy60,

Oracles are "invented sophistry"? I don't believe the giver of oracles would agree.

OK a more serious question.

Who came up with the idea that there is something different between being "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator", and being an "Oracle"?

Regards,

George Clay

I am wondering why the term oracle is being used regarding LDS stuff.

[Sarah]

Or in other words, why should a written revelation with the Lord speaking, be our definition for an oracle, when both J.S. an B.Y. referred to the living prophet as a living oracle?
Perhaps the Lord would actually prefer that revelation be received through councils, rather than he telling one man exactly what to do.

[gclayjr]

Melissa,

jwharton, and those like him are trying to slice a line where they won't say that Thomas S. Monson, is NOT Prophet Seer and Revelator, but somehow, once Wilford Woodruff and the Presidency of the Church issued Official Declaration 1, they lost some subtle OTHER gift other than Prophesying and revealing and seeing, as condemnation. They call that a gift or being an Oracle, as if it is something distinctly different. This is so that they can pretend that they are not heretics who go against the LDS Church.

Regards,

George Clay

[Sarah]

This story demonstrates the importance of councils, and the fact that revelations are only sent when they are needed.
Taken from the Church History Student Manual....


Following a pattern set by the Prophet Joseph Smith, President Taylor often wrote and published the inspiration given to him. One such revelation was dictated on 13 October 1882, just a few days after general conference. For two years the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles had only ten members, and the vacancies had weighed heavily on the prophet’s mind. The revelation called George Teasdale and Heber J. Grant to the apostleship and physician Seymour B. Young to the First Council of the Seventy. It also called for increasing missionary work among various Indian tribes and for an increase in righteousness among priesthood bearers and all the Saints.22

An experience of Elder Heber J. Grant a few months later gives some background to this revelation. Heber reported that for the first few months of his apostleship he felt that he was not qualified to be a special witness of the Savior. While traveling on the Navajo reservation in northern Arizona in February 1883, helping establish the Church among the Indians, Elder Grant told his companions he wanted some time by himself and took a different route to their destination. He later recounted what happened as he rode:

“I seemed to see, and I seemed to hear, what to me is one of the most real things in all my life, I seemed to see a Council in heaven. I seemed to hear the words that were spoken. … The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles had not been able to agree on two men to fill the vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve. … In this Council the Savior was present, my father [Jedediah M. Grant] was there, and the Prophet Joseph Smith was there. They discussed the question that a mistake had been made in not filling those two vacancies and that in all probability it would be another six months before the Quorum would be completed, and they discussed as to whom they wanted to occupy those positions, and decided that the way to remedy the mistake that had been made in not filling these vacancies was to send a revelation. It was given to me that the Prophet Joseph Smith and my father mentioned me and requested that I be called to that position. I sat there and wept for joy. …

“… From that day I have never been bothered, night or day, with the idea that I was not worthy to stand as an Apostle.”23


Jwharton, don't you think it is kind of ironic that you decry a top-down attitude in the Church now, when that is really what you are promoting by insisting one man receive "oracles" or direct revelations from the Lord for the entire Church, without help from anyone else?