Faith in God's Chosen Prophet?

[gclayjr]

Investigator

I will pose the question again. Since you seem to not be able to answer it.

If all you need to do is listen to the spirit, why does God bother to send prophets?

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock, Investigastor

I will pose the question again. Since you seem to not be able to answer it.

If all you need to do is listen to the spirit, why does God bother to send prophets?

Regards,

George Clay

I already answered this:

Prophets are sent because people are living in sin and have forgotten and neglected God. They are sent because people refuse to enter in to God's presence themselves and would rather have someone else be their spokes person. Prophets are sent to bring back the sinners and those living in darkness because they refuse to accept and receive the light themselves.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

I get it now. Since you have received the light yourself, you no longer need a prophet. Sorry for the confusion.

Regards,

George Clay

[investigator]

I do not reject living prophets as long as they point me to Christ. When they tell me they have received a revelation from God, I will ask God if that revelation was from Him. If it was from God I will heed that revelation. When they set themselves up for a light unto the world and seek not the welfare of Zion, I reject that.

Did you actually read what Ezekiel wrote about prophets. He himself being a prophet. He did not point to himself. He did not say I cannot and will not lead you astray. He did not say have faith in me. If Joseph would have thought that the words of Ezekiel were in error, would he not have corrected them in the Joseph Smith Translation. Yes, he would have, however, instead of correcting our current translation of Ezekiel, Joseph applied Ezekiel's words to The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints Joseph Smith, the prophet of this dispensation, told us we were "depending too much on the Prophet". Joseph applied the whole chapter to the church.

Joseph recommended Ezekiel's words to us. Ezekiel tells us a prophet can be deceived. Trust and have faith in God. Heed Prophets. Depending on a prophet will result in being darkened in your mind. Have faith in Christ for He is mighty to save.

[gclayjr]

Investigator,

I do not reject living prophets as long as they point me to Christ. When they tell me they have received a revelation from God, I will ask God if that revelation was from Him. If it was from God I will heed that revelation. When they set themselves up for a light unto the world and seek not the welfare of Zion, I reject that.

So why not bypass the middleman and just go straight to God?

Regards,

George Clay

[investigator]

So why not bypass the middleman and just go straight to God?

Regards,

George Clay

Words of prophets help us to develop faith in God, that he exists, that he Loves us, that he answers prayers, that he wants us to "Come unto him". Without this knowledge it is impossible to have faith. Once the seed is planted then we are able to exercise faith in God. We cannot have faith in something we know nothing about. When we have faith in God then we can and should go strait to Him.

[gclayjr]

Investigator,

So now that you have faith, you no longer need a prophet, because you have your own direct channel to God?

So you need not worry about missing anything God may reveal through his prophets, because you have you own direct channel?

Regards,

George Clay

[rewcox]

The below came from Joseph Smith, do you agree or not?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, as an organization, includes Prophets and Apostles. They are living, so the church is living (see AOF 9).

The organization also requires AOF 5.

Have faith in Christ for Salvation. Have faith/trust/follow/heed (choose which one you like) the Prophets and Apostles to lead you to Christ.

Enjoy the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and the Spirit of Christ.

Your life will be better if you get up in the morning with positive thoughts and attitudes (your attitude determines your altitude). If you get up and start worrying if the Prophets and Apostles have problems, you will have problems too.

Read the Book of Mormon, Bible, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants, it came from Prophets.

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated ccorrectly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[ajax]

Investigator,

So now that you have faith, you no longer need a prophet, because you have your own direct channel to God?

So you need not worry about missing anything God may reveal through his prophets, because you have you own direct channel?

Regards,

George Clay

This is sorta the idea. One who knows tells other people who don't know, then leaves it to them to know. If said people become reliant on said messenger for all future spiritual direction, they spiritually atrophy.

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD"

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Prophets aren't meant to be forever administrators or spiritual guides over peoples lives. But if it's forever hand holding you want, He will certainly oblige. (Eze. 14)

[gclayjr]

I must admit that I had expected to get expressions that one needs to pray for spiritual confirmation of what the prophets say. I would have pointed out that is not in contention. We all agree that one should pray for confirmation by the spirit of what the prophet says.

However, I have been startled by Investigator's response indicating that with faith he doesn't need a prophet because even though Finrock and Amonhi, keep referencing good old Amos 3:7.

7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

He seems to have a different view about how God communicates to his children.

I figured that the issue was going to be who the prophets were. My next question was going to be to whom is God going to reveal his secrets, Thomas S. Monson, Denver Snuffer, Amonhi, a muslim imam?, one's self?

That is the problem with trying to map out a logical path with these guys to make a point. They go off the rails even before you get there.

Finrock hasn't responded, but if I understand Investigator correctly, Prophets are only to get the attention of the unfaithful, and for faithful they don't need him because they can get everything directly from God.

In that case who the prophet may be is irrelevant I guess. So I guess one doesn't have to explain the irrationality of assuming anybody could be a prophet unto the world.

Regards,

George Clay

[investigator]

It is interesting that every time someone wants to prove that we absolutely need prophets, they trot out Amos 3:7 and use it as a proof text. Amos 3:7 only works as a proof text, because if you look at it in context, you will learn that Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son but a herder. God called him directly as he was following his flock. God called him. Not a church. Not a process of years of serving in an institution learning how to be a prophet. Not being ordained to be a prophet seer and revelator and then hoping that he exhibits the fruit of being a prophet. Of course all prophets are ordained by God himself, not man. "All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself".TPJS page 181

Amos 7:14 ¶Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

[gclayjr]

Investigator,

It is interesting that every time someone wants to prove that we absolutely need prophets, they trot out Amos 3:7 and use it as a proof text

So bottom line, as far as you are concerned, Thomas S. Monson is no more of a prophet, than Denver Snuffer, Amonhi, the Pope, ... or you.

So why do you get your panties in a twist every time anybody acknowledges you and your point of view?

Regards,

George clay

[eddie]

Investigator,

So now that you have faith, you no longer need a prophet, because you have your own direct channel to God?

So you need not worry about missing anything God may reveal through his prophets, because you have you own direct channel?

Regards,

George Clay

This is sorta the idea. One who knows tells other people who don't know, then leaves it to them to know. If said people become reliant on said messenger for all future spiritual direction, they spiritually atrophy.

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD"

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Prophets aren't meant to be forever administrators or spiritual guides over peoples lives. But if it's forever hand holding you want, He will certainly oblige. (Eze. 14)

As you well know Ajax, only certain things are revealed to the Prophet, so if you believe in Jesus Christ who reveals the direction of the Church, then you believe in Prophets. Yes, you can pray to have confirmation, but you will not have revelation which is intended only for the Prophet, he has the stewardship.

[rewcox]

It is interesting that every time someone wants to prove that we absolutely need prophets, they trot out Amos 3:7 and use it as a proof text. Amos 3:7 only works as a proof text, because if you look at it in context, you will learn that Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son but a herder. God called him directly as he was following his flock. God called him. Not a church. Not a process of years of serving in an institution learning how to be a prophet. Not being ordained to be a prophet seer and revelator and then hoping that he exhibits the fruit of being a prophet. Of course all prophets are ordained by God himself, not man. "All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself".TPJS page 181

Amos 7:14 ¶Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

Don't you realize this doesn't apply now since the Sacrifice, and Christ setup the new organization with Apostles and Prophets.

[Finrock]

It is interesting that every time someone wants to prove that we absolutely need prophets, they trot out Amos 3:7 and use it as a proof text. Amos 3:7 only works as a proof text, because if you look at it in context, you will learn that Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son but a herder. God called him directly as he was following his flock. God called him. Not a church. Not a process of years of serving in an institution learning how to be a prophet. Not being ordained to be a prophet seer and revelator and then hoping that he exhibits the fruit of being a prophet. Of course all prophets are ordained by God himself, not man. "All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself".TPJS page 181

Amos 7:14 ¶Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

Don't you realize this doesn't apply now since the Sacrifice, and Christ setup the new organization with Apostles and Prophets.

What doesn't apply now?

Also, who do the prophets put their trust in?

-Finrock

[rewcox]

It is interesting that every time someone wants to prove that we absolutely need prophets, they trot out Amos 3:7 and use it as a proof text. Amos 3:7 only works as a proof text, because if you look at it in context, you will learn that Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son but a herder. God called him directly as he was following his flock. God called him. Not a church. Not a process of years of serving in an institution learning how to be a prophet. Not being ordained to be a prophet seer and revelator and then hoping that he exhibits the fruit of being a prophet. Of course all prophets are ordained by God himself, not man. "All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself".TPJS page 181

Amos 7:14 ¶Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

Don't you realize this doesn't apply now since the Sacrifice, and Christ setup the new organization with Apostles and Prophets.

What doesn't apply now?

Also, who do the prophets put their trust in?

-Finrock

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was restored in the early 1800s. Christ selected Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek Priesthood from Peter, James and John.

The Church is God's Kingdom on the earth at this time. Follow the Prophets Finrock.

[Finrock]

It is interesting that every time someone wants to prove that we absolutely need prophets, they trot out Amos 3:7 and use it as a proof text. Amos 3:7 only works as a proof text, because if you look at it in context, you will learn that Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son but a herder. God called him directly as he was following his flock. God called him. Not a church. Not a process of years of serving in an institution learning how to be a prophet. Not being ordained to be a prophet seer and revelator and then hoping that he exhibits the fruit of being a prophet. Of course all prophets are ordained by God himself, not man. "All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself".TPJS page 181

Don't you realize this doesn't apply now since the Sacrifice, and Christ setup the new organization with Apostles and Prophets.

What doesn't apply now?

Also, who do the prophets put their trust in?

-Finrock

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was restored in the early 1800s. Christ selected Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek Priesthood from Peter, James and John.

The Church is God's Kingdom on the earth at this time. Follow the Prophets Finrock.

What doesn't apply now?

Also, who do the prophets put their trust in?

-Finrock

[rewcox]

Don't you realize this doesn't apply now since the Sacrifice, and Christ setup the new organization with Apostles and Prophets.

What doesn't apply now?

Also, who do the prophets put their trust in?

-Finrock

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was restored in the early 1800s. Christ selected Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek Priesthood from Peter, James and John.

The Church is God's Kingdom on the earth at this time. Follow the Prophets Finrock.

What doesn't apply now?

Also, who do the prophets put their trust in?

-Finrock

The Prophets follow Christ.

Name a Prophet outside the church organization, since 1830? During the Nephites time after Christ visited? After Christ setup the Church after His Crucifixion?

[Finrock]

What doesn't apply now?

Also, who do the prophets put their trust in?

-Finrock

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was restored in the early 1800s. Christ selected Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek Priesthood from Peter, James and John.

The Church is God's Kingdom on the earth at this time. Follow the Prophets Finrock.

What doesn't apply now?

Also, who do the prophets put their trust in?

-Finrock

The Prophets follow Christ.

Name a Prophet outside the church organization, since 1830? During the Nephites time after Christ visited? After Christ setup the Church after His Crucifixion?

Your answer that "the Prophets follow Christ" means that they put their trust in Christ?

Also, what doesn't apply now?

-Finrock

[rewcox]

Your answer that "the Prophets follow Christ" means that they put their trust in Christ?

Also, what doesn't apply now?

-Finrock

You can't answer the questions, even easy ones. Continue to eat your grapefruit, we're talking about Apples. You seem to relish being Amonhies, I'm not even sure you are Finrock any longer.

[investigator]

eddie said..As you well know Ajax, only certain things are revealed to the Prophet, so if you believe in Jesus Christ who reveals the direction of the Church, then you believe in Prophets. Yes, you can pray to have confirmation, but you will not have revelation which is intended only for the Prophet, he has the stewardship.

Joseph Smith taught differently...

This principle ought (in its proper place) to be taught, for God hath not revealed anything to
Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all
things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his
neighbor, Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him (who remain) from the least to the greatest TPJS PAGE 149.

[investigator]

One can only have faith in things that are true (Alma 32: 21). We can’t have faith in a falsehood. Only to the extent that a principle contains truth can we exercise faith in it. For this reason, faith is always centered in Christ,because all truth flows from Christ.

Unlike faith, which is always pure, our belief structure includes both pure elements of truth and impurities of human assumption, tradition, false conclusions, and out-and-out lies. Most of what we believe comes from the experiences of our lifetime, all of which occur in the natural world, and most of which are in some way tainted. Such false beliefs are hostile to our progress unless overridden by revealed truth.

By so noting the difference between faith and belief, we are not assigning belief second-class citizenship. Belief, while very different from faith, is the sum total of what we think, both good and bad, true and false. Belief is extremely powerful and has a greater pull upon our lives than any other single force, because our belief literally defines our universe. Life is what we believe it to be. People are what we believe them to be. Our perception of our world, our belief structure, imposes so much distortion upon our vision that in many ways it creates the world we view.

Our every act is driven by a belief. Whether that belief is based upon truth, or upon a misconception, determines whether that act is righteous or evil. Often, our faith can be profound, while our belief about how that faith applies to us can limit, or even eliminate, our enjoyment of the fruits of our faith. Such faith-opposing believing is called “unbelief” in the scriptures. It is not necessarily an absence of faith and can coexist with faith quite companionably. But it is nevertheless an effective and often long-lived damnation of our faith.

Triumph of Zion...John Pontius