Is Jesus our elder brother?

[jwharton]

Agreed. Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by active... As in actively practicing polygamy.

It appears that indeed I did. Thanks!

[freedomforall]

FFA... Peace brother. If people are preaching an active polygamy in this thread I certainly missed it. I served my mission in Texas in the heart of the Bible belt. I loved it. I loved the opposition. But I rarely contended with anyone because I learned that contention does not convince and never converts. I submit to you the best way to stop someone preaching false doctrine is to ignore them. Arguing with people chases away the spirit as it invites the spirit of contention. I believe you genuinely love the gospel and the Lord but this is not His way. We are all gathered in His name here. Disagree with respect. Threatening people with bans only weakens your arguments... And arguments themselves make it impossible to reason together. I know you know which scriptures I'm referring to. Even if every position you take is correct your methodology is wrong.

And I suppose God the Father doesn't ban his children from his presence due to disobedience. Brian has a few rules, whereas, God has only two main rules...obey or be cast off or be swept off the land. Choosing sin is disobedience, whereas, repentance is seeking to obey. Lucifer rebelled and was cast out or banned from God's presence and had 1/3 of the hosts of heaven banned along with him.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:31
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

I'd say God is rather strict, wouldn't you?

Brian has some rules, yet there are posters doing just the opposite of those rules. In the last six years I've seen a few people banned for breaking those rules. Maybe we're not to have contention but can we afford a complete corruption of this forum by keeping our mouths shut?

And let's all face this fact: that there are many, many lurkers coming to this forum to see what Mormons have to say. So what message do you want to leave with them. What message does Brian want sent out to these lurkers to be spread abroad? Which gospel do you want them to learn? Who's truth do you want them to receive and adopt?
Do you want them to hear from those that cut down the church and its leaders? Do you want the Adam-God doctrine running rampant on this forum and lurkers going away believing it? Do you want lurkers to think all Mormons want polygamy back in practice? Do you know there is a scripture that says we as Saints are to stand as witnesses at all times, in all places and in all things? So what do these three situations mean to you and other TBM's?

Mosiah 18:9
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

If I remember right, Christ attended a church gathering and told them in so many words they were being taught false doctrine. Am I correct? If so, are we to be any different? Better yet, is being silent being valiant?

[Alaris]

FFA... Peace brother. If people are preaching an active polygamy in this thread I certainly missed it. I served my mission in Texas in the heart of the Bible belt. I loved it. I loved the opposition. But I rarely contended with anyone because I learned that contention does not convince and never converts. I submit to you the best way to stop someone preaching false doctrine is to ignore them. Arguing with people chases away the spirit as it invites the spirit of contention. I believe you genuinely love the gospel and the Lord but this is not His way. We are all gathered in His name here. Disagree with respect. Threatening people with bans only weakens your arguments... And arguments themselves make it impossible to reason together. I know you know which scriptures I'm referring to. Even if every position you take is correct your methodology is wrong.

And I suppose God the Father doesn't ban his children from his presence due to disobedience. Brian has a few rules, whereas, God has only two main rules...obey or be cast off or be swept off the land. Choosing sin is disobedience, whereas, repentance is seeking to obey. Lucifer rebelled and was cast out or banned from God's presence and had 1/3 of the hosts of heaven banned along with him.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:31
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

I'd say God is rather strict, wouldn't you?

Brian has some rules, yet there are posters doing just the opposite of those rules. In the last six years I've seen a few people banned for breaking those rules. Maybe we're not to have contention but can we afford a complete corruption of this forum by keeping our mouths shut?

And let's all face this fact: that there are many, many lurkers coming to this forum to see what Mormons have to say. So what message do you want to leave with them. What message does Brian want sent out to these lurkers to be spread abroad? Which gospel do you want them to learn? Who's truth do you want them to receive and adopt?
Do you want them to hear from those that cut down the church and its leaders? Do you want the Adam-God doctrine running rampant on this forum and lurkers going away believing it? Do you want lurkers to think all Mormons want polygamy back in practice? Do you know there is a scripture that says we as Saints are to stand as witnesses at all times, in all places and in all things? So what do these three situations mean to you and other TBM's?

Mosiah 18:9
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

If I remember right, Christ attended a church gathering and told them in so many words they were being taught false doctrine. Am I correct? If so, are we to be any different? Better yet, is being silent being valiant?

He is strict and God you are not.

Christ lead a perfect life but that does not mean we all should go around acting like we are the ultimate authority on what His doctrine is and contend with those with whom we think may be off key. You should have bolded all of Mosiah 18:9. If you really think someone is here to deliberately lead people astray then boldly stand up to such but that has not been my experience here. There are a lot of people with whom I disagree but most if not all are here to explain, expound, explore, discuss, and reason together for no other purpose that they may be edified and have joy in that process of reaching understanding. Standing as God's witness does not mean promulgating a spirit of fear and contention... Fear from learning and discussion which is exactly what I've seen from you persistently since I have arrived and I'm not the first second or third person to try to persuade you down a different path.

D&C 121
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile

Galactica 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Yes I do want to hear from those who would cut down church leaders. Search my posts and you'll see I've used the pattern above to teach and persuade with longsuffering and love unfeigned rather than attempt to condemn and cast off.

You are not the keeper of the truth ffa and it is not your job to chase off error. Truth by its very nature does that. I submit to you that if you follow the fruits and pattern above your declarations of truth will be infinitely stronger to the passerby and lurker.

[AI2.0]

FFA... Peace brother. If people are preaching an active polygamy in this thread I certainly missed it. I served my mission in Texas in the heart of the Bible belt. I loved it. I loved the opposition. But I rarely contended with anyone because I learned that contention does not convince and never converts. I submit to you the best way to stop someone preaching false doctrine is to ignore them. Arguing with people chases away the spirit as it invites the spirit of contention. I believe you genuinely love the gospel and the Lord but this is not His way. We are all gathered in His name here. Disagree with respect. Threatening people with bans only weakens your arguments... And arguments themselves make it impossible to reason together. I know you know which scriptures I'm referring to. Even if every position you take is correct your methodology is wrong.

And I suppose God the Father doesn't ban his children from his presence due to disobedience. Brian has a few rules, whereas, God has only two main rules...obey or be cast off or be swept off the land. Choosing sin is disobedience, whereas, repentance is seeking to obey. Lucifer rebelled and was cast out or banned from God's presence and had 1/3 of the hosts of heaven banned along with him.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:31
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

I'd say God is rather strict, wouldn't you?

Brian has some rules, yet there are posters doing just the opposite of those rules. In the last six years I've seen a few people banned for breaking those rules. Maybe we're not to have contention but can we afford a complete corruption of this forum by keeping our mouths shut?

And let's all face this fact: that there are many, many lurkers coming to this forum to see what Mormons have to say. So what message do you want to leave with them. What message does Brian want sent out to these lurkers to be spread abroad? Which gospel do you want them to learn? Who's truth do you want them to receive and adopt?
Do you want them to hear from those that cut down the church and its leaders? Do you want the Adam-God doctrine running rampant on this forum and lurkers going away believing it? Do you want lurkers to think all Mormons want polygamy back in practice? Do you know there is a scripture that says we as Saints are to stand as witnesses at all times, in all places and in all things? So what do these three situations mean to you and other TBM's?

Mosiah 18:9
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

If I remember right, Christ attended a church gathering and told them in so many words they were being taught false doctrine. Am I correct? If so, are we to be any different? Better yet, is being silent being valiant?

He is strict and God you are not.

Christ lead a perfect life but that does not mean we all should go around acting like we are the ultimate authority on what His doctrine is and contend with those with whom we think may be off key. You should have bolded all of Mosiah 18:9. If you really think someone is here to deliberately lead people astray then boldly stand up to such but that has not been my experience here. There are a lot of people with whom I disagree but most if not all are here to explain, expound, explore, discuss, and reason together for no other purpose that they may be edified and have joy in that process of reaching understanding. Standing as God's witness does not mean promulgating a spirit of fear and contention... Fear from learning and discussion which is exactly what I've seen from you persistently since I have arrived and I'm not the first second or third person to try to persuade you down a different path.

D&C 121
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile

Galactica 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Yes I do want to hear from those who would cut down church leaders. Search my posts and you'll see I've used the pattern above to teach and persuade with longsuffering and love unfeigned rather than attempt to condemn and cast off.

You are not the keeper of the truth ffa and it is not your job to chase off error. Truth by its very nature does that. I submit to you that if you follow the fruits and pattern above your declarations of truth will be infinitely stronger to the passerby and lurker.

Alaris, a word of warning; If you are active, devout LDS, you might want to familiarize yourself with JWharton's views before defending him too vigorously. FFA has been actually reading and responding to his posts. It is not uncommon for others to come into a thread and without much background, misunderstand the situation and accuse others of being mean or judgmental. I'd say if you want a clear picture, read JWharton's posts on other threads as well, not just this one.

JWharton promotes many ideas which are not LDS doctrine and FYI, he's not simply speaking in support of Polygamy; from posts I've read, his views on Polygamy are the same as FLDS and he advocates that the members should vote out our current leaders because they are not doing what God wants--for us to live Polygamy. When I read someone promoting things like this as right and correct and thereby saying the mainstream LDS church is wrong, then like Freedomforall, I am concerned and don't want him to go unchallenged. I haven't reported him nor do I desire him to be banned, but I do feel that the believing members of the LDS church here should be bold in taking him and the 'doctrines' he promotes on and show where he is wrong, not defend and encourage him in his false teachings.

[Alaris]

FFA... Peace brother. If people are preaching an active polygamy in this thread I certainly missed it. I served my mission in Texas in the heart of the Bible belt. I loved it. I loved the opposition. But I rarely contended with anyone because I learned that contention does not convince and never converts. I submit to you the best way to stop someone preaching false doctrine is to ignore them. Arguing with people chases away the spirit as it invites the spirit of contention. I believe you genuinely love the gospel and the Lord but this is not His way. We are all gathered in His name here. Disagree with respect. Threatening people with bans only weakens your arguments... And arguments themselves make it impossible to reason together. I know you know which scriptures I'm referring to. Even if every position you take is correct your methodology is wrong.

And I suppose God the Father doesn't ban his children from his presence due to disobedience. Brian has a few rules, whereas, God has only two main rules...obey or be cast off or be swept off the land. Choosing sin is disobedience, whereas, repentance is seeking to obey. Lucifer rebelled and was cast out or banned from God's presence and had 1/3 of the hosts of heaven banned along with him.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:31
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

I'd say God is rather strict, wouldn't you?

Brian has some rules, yet there are posters doing just the opposite of those rules. In the last six years I've seen a few people banned for breaking those rules. Maybe we're not to have contention but can we afford a complete corruption of this forum by keeping our mouths shut?

And let's all face this fact: that there are many, many lurkers coming to this forum to see what Mormons have to say. So what message do you want to leave with them. What message does Brian want sent out to these lurkers to be spread abroad? Which gospel do you want them to learn? Who's truth do you want them to receive and adopt?
Do you want them to hear from those that cut down the church and its leaders? Do you want the Adam-God doctrine running rampant on this forum and lurkers going away believing it? Do you want lurkers to think all Mormons want polygamy back in practice? Do you know there is a scripture that says we as Saints are to stand as witnesses at all times, in all places and in all things? So what do these three situations mean to you and other TBM's?

Mosiah 18:9
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

If I remember right, Christ attended a church gathering and told them in so many words they were being taught false doctrine. Am I correct? If so, are we to be any different? Better yet, is being silent being valiant?

He is strict and God you are not.

Christ lead a perfect life but that does not mean we all should go around acting like we are the ultimate authority on what His doctrine is and contend with those with whom we think may be off key. You should have bolded all of Mosiah 18:9. If you really think someone is here to deliberately lead people astray then boldly stand up to such but that has not been my experience here. There are a lot of people with whom I disagree but most if not all are here to explain, expound, explore, discuss, and reason together for no other purpose that they may be edified and have joy in that process of reaching understanding. Standing as God's witness does not mean promulgating a spirit of fear and contention... Fear from learning and discussion which is exactly what I've seen from you persistently since I have arrived and I'm not the first second or third person to try to persuade you down a different path.

D&C 121
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile

Galactica 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Yes I do want to hear from those who would cut down church leaders. Search my posts and you'll see I've used the pattern above to teach and persuade with longsuffering and love unfeigned rather than attempt to condemn and cast off.

You are not the keeper of the truth ffa and it is not your job to chase off error. Truth by its very nature does that. I submit to you that if you follow the fruits and pattern above your declarations of truth will be infinitely stronger to the passerby and lurker.

Alaris, a word of warning; If you are active, devout LDS, you might want to familiarize yourself with JWharton's views before defending him too vigorously. FFA has been actually reading and responding to his posts. It is not uncommon for others to come into a thread and without much background, misunderstand the situation and accuse others of being mean or judgmental. I'd say if you want a clear picture, read JWharton's posts on other threads as well, not just this one.

JWharton promotes many ideas which are not LDS doctrine and FYI, he's not simply speaking in support of Polygamy; from posts I've read, his views on Polygamy are the same as FLDS and he advocates that the members should vote out our current leaders because they are not doing what God wants--for us to live Polygamy. When I read someone promoting things like this as right and correct and thereby saying the mainstream LDS church is wrong, then like Freedomforall, I am concerned and don't want him to go unchallenged. I haven't reported him nor do I desire him to be banned, but I do feel that the believing members of the LDS church here should be bold in taking him and the 'doctrines' he promotes on and show where he is wrong, not defend and encourage him in his false teachings.

Well then AI2.0 I go back to what I said earlier - if what you're saying is true then the worst insult you can give to an enemy of truth is to ignore them. If there is a genuine truth seeker here, they can find it without seeing active, devout lds verbally bludgeoning FLDS or other wayward souls. I've seen FLDS troll forums and groups in the past, and they love it when an LDS member engages with them. *trump voice* Balieve me.

[jwharton]

Alaris, a word of warning; If you are active, devout LDS, you might want to familiarize yourself with JWharton's views before defending him too vigorously.

I read his post and I don't get that he is defending the substance of my views.
He is attempting to coach FFA in how to more effectively defend that which is the truth.
And, as a byproduct of this more effective means of defense of truth, he might also learn something as well.
In short, he is advocating that everyone pay greater heed to having "the Spirit of Truth" as is admonished in D&C 50.

I wholeheartedly support what he is advocating because it is truth itself that fights its own battles and wins in a sincere and humble mind.
When people deliberately cross the line and start to personally smear and insult instead of seeking mutual understanding, the Spirit of Truth flees.
Alaris has aptly pointed out that FFA does this when he takes it upon himself to be the sole arbiter of what is or isn't true and smacks people down.

When I sense FFA isn't really trying to understand me and that he in fact doesn't understand me and then personally mocks me....
How effective do you think his efforts are to reclaim me if in fact I am saying something that isn't true?

FFA has been actually reading and responding to his posts. It is not uncommon for others to come into a thread and without much background, misunderstand the situation and accuse others of being mean or judgmental. I'd say if you want a clear picture, read JWharton's posts on other threads as well, not just this one.

The substance of someone's posts doesn't justify a person laying aside "the Spirit of Truth".
The point Alaris is making is if you believe someone is in error then you need to apply that Spirit even more.
Take the time and have the faith to actually see if you fully understand them.
If you have a grievance with what they have said, take the time to explore it and allow them to show their supporting evidence.
What do you have to fear if you have the Holy Spirit being your guide?

I believe if a person has sealed off their mind to the possibility of obtaining further light and knowledge from someone who at first may seem difficult to understand, then they have lost the Spirit already. This especially becomes evident when that person instead feels the need to just summarily dismiss them and then if they don't go away that person begins to mock and jeer at them. This is rock solid evidence that this person has partaken of a spirit of pride, arrogance and self-righteousness and that they are in fact the one who does not have the Spirit.

This is how I view all those who treat me as FFA handily and readily demonstrates.

JWharton promotes many ideas which are not LDS doctrine and FYI, he's not simply speaking in support of Polygamy; from posts I've read, his views on Polygamy are the same as FLDS and he advocates that the members should vote out our current leaders because they are not doing what God wants--for us to live Polygamy. When I read someone promoting things like this as right and correct and thereby saying the mainstream LDS church is wrong, then like Freedomforall, I am concerned and don't want him to go unchallenged. I haven't reported him nor do I desire him to be banned, but I do feel that the believing members of the LDS church here should be bold in taking him and the 'doctrines' he promotes on and show where he is wrong, not defend and encourage him in his false teachings.

Your representation of my views is not accurate.

I would be exceedingly grateful to have all engage with me because I always learn when people are respectfully interacting with me. Everyone's sincere concerns and grievances with what I write truly matters to me. When I sense someone truly has a good spirit about them and they have trouble with something I have said, then it really weighs on my heart and I will rip myself to shreds if necessary to get to the bottom of it.

What I greatly dislike is when people start to deliberately misconstrue what I say, refuse to allow further clarity and then when all else fails begin to mock and insult and slur me personally. And, even then, I will still try to take what they say as seriously as I can, but I'm not often inspired to rip myself to shreds looking for what is missing when someone is just pridefully trying to slur me.

[buffalo_girl]

And the reason I lost interest in the forum is found ever before my eyes on this topic alone! I dare not venture more.

Unfortunately, verbal pomposity on the part of 'defenders of Mormon truth' is eating up what could have been a darn good scriptural discussion.

What justification is there in derailing meaningful dialogue? I would like to know.

the worst insult you can give to an enemy of truth is to ignore them

I've had to ignore nearly every post since page two - off topic, spiritual conceits, wasted page-space quoting quotes of quotes, generalized finger pointing, and repeated threats of banishment.

Why not tell Brian if you think someone's opinion needs censorship? Why waste everyone's time and space bleating over every jot or tittle considered by one or two persons alone to be false doctrine or blasphemy?

Sadly, I have seen many powerful minds in the 'greater' LDS community 'fall away' from the forum, and a few withdraw from the institution of the church - not because of any false doctrine being promoted here, but because of those who appoint themselves to brandish a sword of entrenched intermountain dogma through nearly EVERY topic as though it were the Light of CHRIST clearing away annoying devils.

READ "Teaching in the Savior's Way"

Regard the forum as an opportunity to enlighten anyone 'lurking' or hoping things have improved enough here for a productive and edifying conversation. PRAY about what will inspire and lead us all to Christ.

[Finrock]

And the reason I lost interest in the forum is found ever before my eyes on this topic alone! I dare not venture more.

Unfortunately, verbal pomposity on the part of 'defenders of Mormon truth' is eating up what could have been a darn good scriptural discussion.

What justification is there in derailing meaningful dialogue? I would like to know.

the worst insult you can give to an enemy of truth is to ignore them

I've had to ignore nearly every post since page two - off topic, spiritual conceits, wasted page-space quoting quotes of quotes, generalized finger pointing, and repeated threats of banishment.

Why not tell Brian if you think someone's opinion needs censorship? Why waste everyone's time and space bleating over every jot or tittle considered by one or two persons alone to be false doctrine or blasphemy?

Sadly, I have seen many powerful minds in the 'greater' LDS community 'fall away' from the forum, and a few withdraw from the institution of the church - not because of any false doctrine being promoted here, but because of those who appoint themselves to brandish a sword of entrenched intermountain dogma through nearly EVERY topic as though it were the Light of CHRIST clearing away annoying devils.

READ "Teaching in the Savior's Way"

Regard the forum as an opportunity to enlighten anyone 'lurking' or hoping things have improved enough here for a productive and edifying conversation. PRAY about what will inspire and lead us all to Christ.

Amen!

-Finrock

[jwharton]

Perhaps discussion such as this is a worthwhile detour we should make if it helps bring back the Spirit?
Hopefully, those who caused the need for the detour will learn how better to keep the Spirit from then on?

[rewcox]

I think the majority of what is posted at LDSFF is philosophies of individuals.

I hear claims of this Spirit, or that Spirit, this Truth or that Truth, yet it is not consistent with the Truth that is part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

The Remnant group preached, and still do, a lot of not trusting in the arm of flesh (Leaders of the Church). Now that they have splintered off, a few people are pursuing building a temple. "Why am I not involved" someone asks...

Now they are dealing with what they were complaining about.

[jwharton]

I think the majority of what is posted at LDSFF is philosophies of individuals.

Everything anyone states is their own personal beliefs.
The question is what is it based upon and can it stand up to close examination?

I hear claims of this Spirit, or that Spirit, this Truth or that Truth, yet it is not consistent with the Truth that is part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

You can separately discern someone's Spirit (attitude and mindset) from the content they are supporting.
Does a person have the Spirit of Truth, where they are seeking for both to understand one another, per D&C 50?
Or, does a person have the spirit of contention where they just want to go around and make personal slurs and derail productive dialog?
They may think they are supporting what is true, but the manner in which they are operating is contrary to the Spirit of Truth.

The Remnant group preached, and still do, a lot of not trusting in the arm of flesh (Leaders of the Church). Now that they have splintered off, a few people are pursuing building a temple. "Why am I not involved" someone asks...

Now they are dealing with what they were complaining about.

You might disagree, but the knowledge I have acquired in my efforts to make sense of our awful situation would have checked the Denver Snuffer phenom. I addressed my issues with his doctrinal positions a long time ago on these forums. If people were willing, and could stand up to the heat and yet maintain a respectful exchange, I could show how he is actually causing serious injury to people's testimonies of the Restoration. I know he believes he is doing good, but there are many points upon which I have serious grievances with him and his doctrines. In the wake of his influence I see people starting to consider their Church membership to be of little to no value. This alone causes me great concern. While there is much to set aright among ourselves to be cleansed and redeemed, the last thing we need is a reason to just be willing to throw our membership away.

[buffalo_girl]

sigh.....

[Alaris]

And the reason I lost interest in the forum is found ever before my eyes on this topic alone! I dare not venture more.

Unfortunately, verbal pomposity on the part of 'defenders of Mormon truth' is eating up what could have been a darn good scriptural discussion.

What justification is there in derailing meaningful dialogue? I would like to know.

the worst insult you can give to an enemy of truth is to ignore them

I've had to ignore nearly every post since page two - off topic, spiritual conceits, wasted page-space quoting quotes of quotes, generalized finger pointing, and repeated threats of banishment.

Why not tell Brian if you think someone's opinion needs censorship? Why waste everyone's time and space bleating over every jot or tittle considered by one or two persons alone to be false doctrine or blasphemy?

Sadly, I have seen many powerful minds in the 'greater' LDS community 'fall away' from the forum, and a few withdraw from the institution of the church - not because of any false doctrine being promoted here, but because of those who appoint themselves to brandish a sword of entrenched intermountain dogma through nearly EVERY topic as though it were the Light of CHRIST clearing away annoying devils.

READ "Teaching in the Savior's Way"

Regard the forum as an opportunity to enlighten anyone 'lurking' or hoping things have improved enough here for a productive and edifying conversation. PRAY about what will inspire and lead us all to Christ.

I sincerely apologize for participating in said derailment. Let's get back to the topic at hand. I spoke with my mother over the weekend about this topic. Her testimony has waned sadly so I look for interesting subjects like these to try to pique her interest and Jumpstart her testimony as hers was beautiful and deep.

Her concern was President Hinckley's response to Mike Wallace on 60 minutes to the "as god is man may become.. As man is God once was “ quote. President Hinckley said “I don't know that we teach that." He then said he wasn't familiar with the quote I believe.

I told her there's no way he didn't know the quote or doctrine but was trying to downplay meaty doctrine for the milky audience.

I then told her how Jesus added Himself to the Be ye therefore perfect as I or your father in heaven is perfect only after the atonement and ascension when He was giving the sermon to the Nephites. Be perfect AS I am perfect and AS Heavenly Father is perfect. So simple and so deep. If we become perfect as Jesus does then Firstborn is a title that is earned.

[freedomforall]

You are not the keeper of the truth ffa and it is not your job to chase off error. Tell me, Alaris, is it your job to chase me off? Truth by its very nature does that. I submit to you that if you follow the fruits and pattern above your declarations of truth will be infinitely stronger to the passerby and lurker.

And just like JWharton, I doubt you read all of my post. Many questions posed went unanswered. Is that meaningful dialog? Somehow, I don't think so. Everyone has paradigms that they will hold on to no matter what, you're no exception. JWharton's teachings are not based on orthodox Mormonism. In fact, he stated in a thread around last year that Mormon's should be taken out of Orthodox Mormon Christianity. (Not verbatim, too many posts to research.) My point being that if you want to ignore false doctrine, including Adam God doctrine...and please don't get him started on that, then you may be part of the problem. It's like saying to a friend while on a hunting trip, "just ignore that wild, ferocious wolf bearing its fangs and snarling...it will not bite you and will soon go away. Just ignore it!" In other words, a little scripture mingled with the philosophies of men can go far.
This forum has gone to hell because of too many people ignoring the continuing decay, too many Latter-day Saints not willing to be valiant enough to lean against false doctrine and set things right. This is merely a forum but now take these false doctrines and take them to the wards and stakes all across the country. Then what do we have because many individuals ignored pending danger?

However, if your method works for you, Great! Perhaps you need a real one on one with JWharton to discover what will happen.

I've had one on one's with many others that have brought false doctrines to the table. That does not, by any means, make them bad people, it is only their doctrines that are problematic, one even claimed to be Jesus....based on the necessity of Mormons reading their scriptures and becoming extremely familiar with true doctrine. Many Mormon's do not take the time to feast upon the word. I'll venture to say that some Mormons have never read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants cover to cover. How can they truly defend anything not knowing what God says about any one topic?
Even Christ used scripture to make a point several times. He would say, "it is written." Check it out.

BTW, I have never claimed to be God. I said Brian has rules and God has rules...I never said I created any of them. But see how a person's lack of comprehension of what others say and they themselves being stuck in their own little world, can get in the way?

[freedomforall]

sigh.....

ditto

[rewcox]

You are not the keeper of the truth ffa and it is not your job to chase off error. Tell me, Alaris, is it your job to chase me off? Truth by its very nature does that. I submit to you that if you follow the fruits and pattern above your declarations of truth will be infinitely stronger to the passerby and lurker.

And just like JWharton, I doubt you read all of my post. Many questions posed went unanswered. Is that meaningful dialog? Somehow, I don't think so. Everyone has paradigms that they will hold on to no matter what, you're no exception. JWharton's teachings are not based on orthodox Mormonism. In fact, he stated in a thread around last year that Mormon's should be taken out of Orthodox Mormon Christianity. (Not verbatim, too many posts to research.) My point being that if you want to ignore false doctrine, including Adam God doctrine...and please don't get him started on that, then you may be part of the problem. It's like saying to a friend while on a hunting trip, "just ignore that wild, ferocious wolf bearing its fangs and snarling...it will not bite you and will soon go away. Just ignore it!" In other words, a little scripture mingled with the philosophies of men can go far.
This forum has gone to hell because of too many people ignoring the continuing decay, too many Latter-day Saints not willing to be valiant enough to lean against false doctrine and set things right. This is merely a forum but now take these false doctrines and take them to the wards and stakes all across the country. Then what do we have because many individuals ignored pending danger?

However, if your method works for you, Great! Perhaps you need a real one on one with JWharton to discover what will happen.

I've had one on one's with many others that have brought false doctrines to the table. That does not, by any means, make them bad people, it is only their doctrines that are problematic, one even claimed to be Jesus....based on the necessity of Mormons reading their scriptures and becoming extremely familiar with true doctrine. Many Mormon's do not take the time to feast upon the word. I'll venture to say that some Mormons have never read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants cover to cover. How can they truly defend anything not knowing what God says about any one topic?
Even Christ used scripture to make a point several times. He would say, "it is written." Check it out.

You are crushing to be the Ultimate TBM now, UTBM, unseating me.

[freedomforall]

You are not the keeper of the truth ffa and it is not your job to chase off error. Tell me, Alaris, is it your job to chase me off? Truth by its very nature does that. I submit to you that if you follow the fruits and pattern above your declarations of truth will be infinitely stronger to the passerby and lurker.

And just like JWharton, I doubt you read all of my post. Many questions posed went unanswered. Is that meaningful dialog? Somehow, I don't think so. Everyone has paradigms that they will hold on to no matter what, you're no exception. JWharton's teachings are not based on orthodox Mormonism. In fact, he stated in a thread around last year that Mormon's should be taken out of Orthodox Mormon Christianity. (Not verbatim, too many posts to research.) My point being that if you want to ignore false doctrine, including Adam God doctrine...and please don't get him started on that, then you may be part of the problem. It's like saying to a friend while on a hunting trip, "just ignore that wild, ferocious wolf bearing its fangs and snarling...it will not bite you and will soon go away. Just ignore it!" In other words, a little scripture mingled with the philosophies of men can go far.
This forum has gone to hell because of too many people ignoring the continuing decay, too many Latter-day Saints not willing to be valiant enough to lean against false doctrine and set things right. This is merely a forum but now take these false doctrines and take them to the wards and stakes all across the country. Then what do we have because many individuals ignored pending danger?

However, if your method works for you, Great! Perhaps you need a real one on one with JWharton to discover what will happen.

I've had one on one's with many others that have brought false doctrines to the table. That does not, by any means, make them bad people, it is only their doctrines that are problematic, one even claimed to be Jesus....based on the necessity of Mormons reading their scriptures and becoming extremely familiar with true doctrine. Many Mormon's do not take the time to feast upon the word. I'll venture to say that some Mormons have never read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants cover to cover. How can they truly defend anything not knowing what God says about any one topic?
Even Christ used scripture to make a point several times. He would say, "it is written." Check it out.

You are crushing to be the Ultimate TBM now, UTBM, unseating me.

Whoops, my bad. You're on a roll so don't let me get in the way. :ymhug:

BTW, what does the O stand for in OTBM?

[Alaris]

You are not reading my posts either ffa. Persuading you to not be contentious was my aim not to chase you off. I still have some work to do but that's where the long-suffering comes in. Persuading you to let this thread to return to its topic was another aim. How about we agree to return to the topic at hand with a cordial, friendly exchange, yes?

You believe Jesus was the first created spirit by Heavenly Father. Excellent. I used to believe that until I started studying and pondering and praying more about the subject. I invite you to do the same. If not then let's agree to disagree. We can believe differently without mocking or insulting... Promise

[buffalo_girl]

Her concern was President Hinckley's response to Mike Wallace on 60 minutes to the "as god is man may become.. As man is God once was “ quote. President Hinckley said “I don't know that we teach that." He then said he wasn't familiar with the quote I believe.

I grew up in the Church hearing that quote. I don't recall who said it, but I have NOT found it in scripture. I suppose a case for that adage can be supported with scripture, but it isn't one of those "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" statements out of the LORD's very mouth.

I guess those sorts of public exchanges can make one wonder about a Prophet's reliability, especially if you've heard something said all your life by 'those in authority', and accept it as 'gospel' yourself.

I'm not sure how old your mom is. I'm getting up there in years and lived through the David O McKay - Bruce R McConkie hub-bub over McConkie's first editions of Mormon Doctrine. As a young woman, I developed a decided cynicism about certain Church policies, beliefs and cultural norms. It took me many years to more fully assume responsibility for learning Christ's LAW and understanding how His EXAMPLE should be acted upon in my own life.

Every question I've ever taken to the LORD - even those He must have overheard in quiet thought - has been answered through the scriptures.

This question "Is Jesus our Elder Brother?" is one about which I've sought answers. As I said above, I cringe a bit when I hear Christ referred to as "our elder brother". (I heard it 3 times in Testimony Meeting yesterday.) I know there is scripture that 'suggests' a familial relationship that we could apply to the concept of siblings, but I think we may be assuming a familiarity with The Creator we have NOT earned. FATHER seems closer to my feeling about Him, seeing myself as someone who has a great deal to learn yet.

You have no need to apologize to me, Alaris.

[shadow]

This question "Is Jesus our Elder Brother?" is one about which I've sought answers. As I said above, I cringe a bit when I hear Christ referred to as "our elder brother". (I heard it 3 times in Testimony Meeting yesterday.) I know there is scripture that 'suggests' a familial relationship that we could apply to the concept of siblings, but I think we may be assuming a familiarity with The Creator we have NOT earned. FATHER seems closer to my feeling about Him, seeing myself as someone who has a great deal to learn yet.

It's possible that some people have prayed about it or pondered it and have had their queries regarding the topic answered in the affirmative. You haven't, as you've pointed out, but there's really no need to "cringe" when others refer to it as such.

[rewcox]

You are not the keeper of the truth ffa and it is not your job to chase off error. Tell me, Alaris, is it your job to chase me off? Truth by its very nature does that. I submit to you that if you follow the fruits and pattern above your declarations of truth will be infinitely stronger to the passerby and lurker.

And just like JWharton, I doubt you read all of my post. Many questions posed went unanswered. Is that meaningful dialog? Somehow, I don't think so. Everyone has paradigms that they will hold on to no matter what, you're no exception. JWharton's teachings are not based on orthodox Mormonism. In fact, he stated in a thread around last year that Mormon's should be taken out of Orthodox Mormon Christianity. (Not verbatim, too many posts to research.) My point being that if you want to ignore false doctrine, including Adam God doctrine...and please don't get him started on that, then you may be part of the problem. It's like saying to a friend while on a hunting trip, "just ignore that wild, ferocious wolf bearing its fangs and snarling...it will not bite you and will soon go away. Just ignore it!" In other words, a little scripture mingled with the philosophies of men can go far.
This forum has gone to hell because of too many people ignoring the continuing decay, too many Latter-day Saints not willing to be valiant enough to lean against false doctrine and set things right. This is merely a forum but now take these false doctrines and take them to the wards and stakes all across the country. Then what do we have because many individuals ignored pending danger?

However, if your method works for you, Great! Perhaps you need a real one on one with JWharton to discover what will happen.

I've had one on one's with many others that have brought false doctrines to the table. That does not, by any means, make them bad people, it is only their doctrines that are problematic, one even claimed to be Jesus....based on the necessity of Mormons reading their scriptures and becoming extremely familiar with true doctrine. Many Mormon's do not take the time to feast upon the word. I'll venture to say that some Mormons have never read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants cover to cover. How can they truly defend anything not knowing what God says about any one topic?
Even Christ used scripture to make a point several times. He would say, "it is written." Check it out.

You are crushing to be the Ultimate TBM now, UTBM, unseating me.

Whoops, my bad. You're on a roll so don't let me get in the way. :ymhug:

BTW, what does the O stand for in OTBM?

Obstinate.

[Alaris]

Her concern was President Hinckley's response to Mike Wallace on 60 minutes to the "as god is man may become.. As man is God once was “ quote. President Hinckley said “I don't know that we teach that." He then said he wasn't familiar with the quote I believe.

I grew up in the Church hearing that quote. I don't recall who said it, but I have NOT found it in scripture. I suppose a case for that adage can be supported with scripture, but it isn't one of those "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" statements out of the LORD's very mouth.

I guess those sorts of public exchanges can make one wonder about a Prophet's reliability, especially if you've heard something said all your life by 'those in authority', and accept it as 'gospel' yourself.

I'm not sure how old your mom is. I'm getting up there in years and lived through the David O McKay - Bruce R McConkie hub-bub over McConkie's first editions of Mormon Doctrine. As a young woman, I developed a decided cynicism about certain Church policies, beliefs and cultural norms. It took me many years to more fully assume responsibility for learning Christ's LAW and understanding how His EXAMPLE should be acted upon in my own life.

Every question I've ever taken to the LORD - even those He must have overheard in quiet thought - has been answered through the scriptures.

This question "Is Jesus our Elder Brother?" is one about which I've sought answers. As I said above, I cringe a bit when I hear Christ referred to as "our elder brother". (I heard it 3 times in Testimony Meeting yesterday.) I know there is scripture that 'suggests' a familial relationship that we could apply to the concept of siblings, but I think we may be assuming a familiarity with The Creator we have NOT earned. FATHER seems closer to my feeling about Him, seeing myself as someone who has a great deal to learn yet.

You have no need to apologize to me, Alaris.

Great point about reliability. I personally didn't get a bad vibe when I first saw the Hinckley 60 minutes exchange.

I too have cringed at the mention. I really believe the spirit withdraws when people say it because it reduces the Father role of the Savior and the magnificence of His accomplishments because it equalizes His and our roles and titles.

[freedomforall]

And just like JWharton, I doubt you read all of my post. Many questions posed went unanswered. Is that meaningful dialog? Somehow, I don't think so. Everyone has paradigms that they will hold on to no matter what, you're no exception. JWharton's teachings are not based on orthodox Mormonism. In fact, he stated in a thread around last year that Mormon's should be taken out of Orthodox Mormon Christianity. (Not verbatim, too many posts to research.) My point being that if you want to ignore false doctrine, including Adam God doctrine...and please don't get him started on that, then you may be part of the problem. It's like saying to a friend while on a hunting trip, "just ignore that wild, ferocious wolf bearing its fangs and snarling...it will not bite you and will soon go away. Just ignore it!" In other words, a little scripture mingled with the philosophies of men can go far.
This forum has gone to hell because of too many people ignoring the continuing decay, too many Latter-day Saints not willing to be valiant enough to lean against false doctrine and set things right. This is merely a forum but now take these false doctrines and take them to the wards and stakes all across the country. Then what do we have because many individuals ignored pending danger?

However, if your method works for you, Great! Perhaps you need a real one on one with JWharton to discover what will happen.

I've had one on one's with many others that have brought false doctrines to the table. That does not, by any means, make them bad people, it is only their doctrines that are problematic, one even claimed to be Jesus....based on the necessity of Mormons reading their scriptures and becoming extremely familiar with true doctrine. Many Mormon's do not take the time to feast upon the word. I'll venture to say that some Mormons have never read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants cover to cover. How can they truly defend anything not knowing what God says about any one topic?
Even Christ used scripture to make a point several times. He would say, "it is written." Check it out.

You are crushing to be the Ultimate TBM now, UTBM, unseating me.

Whoops, my bad. You're on a roll so don't let me get in the way. :ymhug:

BTW, what does the O stand for in OTBM?

Obstinate.

Kinda has a ring to it.

[freedomforall]

Her concern was President Hinckley's response to Mike Wallace on 60 minutes to the "as god is man may become.. As man is God once was “ quote. President Hinckley said “I don't know that we teach that." He then said he wasn't familiar with the quote I believe.

I grew up in the Church hearing that quote. I don't recall who said it, but I have NOT found it in scripture. I suppose a case for that adage can be supported with scripture, but it isn't one of those "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" statements out of the LORD's very mouth.

I guess those sorts of public exchanges can make one wonder about a Prophet's reliability, especially if you've heard something said all your life by 'those in authority', and accept it as 'gospel' yourself.

I'm not sure how old your mom is. I'm getting up there in years and lived through the David O McKay - Bruce R McConkie hub-bub over McConkie's first editions of Mormon Doctrine. As a young woman, I developed a decided cynicism about certain Church policies, beliefs and cultural norms. It took me many years to more fully assume responsibility for learning Christ's LAW and understanding how His EXAMPLE should be acted upon in my own life.

Every question I've ever taken to the LORD - even those He must have overheard in quiet thought - has been answered through the scriptures.

This question "Is Jesus our Elder Brother?" is one about which I've sought answers. As I said above, I cringe a bit when I hear Christ referred to as "our elder brother". (I heard it 3 times in Testimony Meeting yesterday.) I know there is scripture that 'suggests' a familial relationship that we could apply to the concept of siblings, but I think we may be assuming a familiarity with The Creator we have NOT earned. FATHER seems closer to my feeling about Him, seeing myself as someone who has a great deal to learn yet.

You have no need to apologize to me, Alaris.

Great point about reliability. I personally didn't get a bad vibe when I first saw the Hinckley 60 minutes exchange.

I too have cringed at the mention. I really believe the spirit withdraws when people say it because it reduces the Father role of the Savior and the magnificence of His accomplishments because it equalizes His and our roles and titles.

Did you know that God the Father is my dad? And Jehovah's dad is my dad? That Jehovah was spiritually born before me, so he must be my older brother? Strange!
Also. did you know I was named after my mother?

[Durzan]

Heavenly Father is the father of our Spirits, including Jehovah, aka Jesus Christ. So technically yes, we are Jehovah's brothers and sisters.

However, he basically adopts us as his own children as part of the Atonement, therefore making him both the Father and the Son.

So the answer is techically: "Yes and More."