Thanks for sharing your insights. I think anyone would notice you've really studied and researched this a lot and I think it's great you are willing to share ideas that are less commonly considered.alaris wrote:butterfly - I apologize for participating in a derailing this thread for a page or two, but I would like very much to get your feedback on my comments below. If I understand you correctly, you believe Jesus is the Father of our spirits. I do not know or understand all the mysteries of God or godhood and appreciate your willingness to consider other ideas. I will certainly consider yours.
butterfly wrote:I'm going to quote marc's scripture chain from another thread because it really is worth pondering:
"John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
I believe Jesus is teaching His disciples that he is becoming a Father Himself and that this is the process to become a Father. He is on the cusp of receiving a fullness, but He is not the same being. Remember D&C 93 where we learn that Jesus was call the Son of God because He did not receive a fullness at first. If you agree with this, then do you believe that Jesus still may have sired our spirits before He had received a fullness?
Exodus 3: 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
I like what buffalo_girl said here - that I AM is a continuum. A fun interpretation of I AM is "unlike the other pagan gods that are being worshiped around these parts I actually exist--I am."
D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;
3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—
4 The Father because he gave me of his fullness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.
This is Jesus speaking in modern times after His resurrection, atonement, ascension, and reception of the fullness. He is stating in verse 4 that he is now a Father like the Father who sent Him.
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father...
10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?...
Wow I had never thought of it quite like this before, but I believe what Abinidi is saying here is that during a Savior's sojourn, He is begotten by both a heavenly parent and an earthly because He is becoming one and mastering the other...and then leaving the weakness of the flesh behind to fully become a Father Himself. The Son submits His will to the Father means He is subjecting Himself to the worst treatment, the worst temptations and showing that He is no longer acting like a child of God but a God Himself--hence the Son's will aka weakness of the flesh is swallowed up (or mastered) to become the will of the Father - or the order of Fathers. This is how to become a God.
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
This was before His ascension, so this is a bit more tricky. However, I have a new understanding of "shall become my sons and daughters." I believe this may be the answer to firstborn. Why is it important to spiritually become Jesus's son or daughter? Is this related to how Jesus Himself became firstborn? As He progressed from grace to grace or from atonement to atonement (D&C 93,) was He spiritually begotten at some point in the same way?
JSH 1:17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
Two beings.
Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Jehovah goes on to call Moses His son. He has also called others His son(s):
D&C 39:1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—
2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;
4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.
As an ascended Father who will likely go on to create His own spirit children, who will Jesus take with Him - who has earned Firstborn? Does a Father have one Son or does he have more than one - each with their own domain of worlds where they are the only begotten within their own space?
D&C 31:1 Thomas, my son, blessed are you because of your faith in my work.
2 Behold, you have had many afflictions because of your family; nevertheless, I will bless you and your family, yea, your little ones; and the day cometh that they will believe and know the truth and be one with you in my church.
D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;
2 The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;
See above. It is my belief that you must become a son before you can become a father. You have to descend below all before you can receive all.
3 Nephi:20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.
21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.
22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.
23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.
See the thread on the identity of the Holy Ghost--it gives a unique perspective on verse 20 above. If these souls are progressing from grace to grace as Jesus did and the same way we must (King Follet), then that would also give new meaning to chosen "out of the world." Verse 21 also takes on new meeting given both of these contexts.
Then there's the most obvious one: D&C 109 where Joseph Smith prays to Jehovah as the Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ when dedicating the temple. The Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer was specifically given to Joseph Smith by revelation. He did not make these words up. Prayerfully study who Joseph Smith is addressing and the names used to address Him.
D&C109:1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts...
4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build...
10 And now, Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance...
42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.
43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee;
44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours....
68 O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., and all his afflictions and persecutions—how he has covenanted with Jehovah, and vowed to thee, O Mighty God of Jacob—and the commandments which thou hast given unto him, and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will.
69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand...
78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name;
79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb!"
My only thought here is that Joseph Smith Jr. would know better than anyone that Jehovah has now earned the title "Holy Father" and mentions Jesus Christ as "the son of they bosom" as a separate and distinct role and accomplishment from His new title--not that Jehovah and Elohim are the same person. This does seem confusing though I will admit. None of the other scriptures convince me that the Elohim who sent Jehovah and Jehovah are the same guy. Jehovah has become one of the Elohim.
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Here's what I know: the Universal God, whom Jesus refers to as "the Father" is the God that we worship and pray to. This God is described as spirit in the scriptures and in lectures on faith. This God is much more than just a man like the Joseph Smith first vision depicts. Joseph Smith had a vision, which is different than a visitation. If I were to visit you, I would see you exactly how you are; I could note your height, weight, etc. But in a vision, you could be represented as a lamb, letting me know that you mean me no harm, I can trust you, etc. So the first vision was not a literal explanation of how God the Father is.
Once I realized this, my next question was "Then who are my Heavenly Parents"? Multiple times I was taught that Jehovah/Jesus is my Heavenly Father. Now, I don't know what type of father He is. Did He sire my spirit? Idk.
Since our spirits are organized out of matter, and the Universal God makes up all matter, then quite literally we are the offspring of the Universal God because our spirits are made up of the stuff that is God.
I think we were birthed by heavenly parents- I have spirit parents and you have your own spirit parents, too, very similar to what it's like here on earth where everyone has their own families. This is just a theory, though.
But what I do know is when I asked the Savior who my Heavenly Parents were, and He told me He was my Father, and I, very confused, said " but you're my elder brother ", He immediately replied "where in the scriptures does it say that?" And the tone He used was to imply that me thinking He was my elder brother was a kind of unbelief, a philosophy of man, that I could easily let go of because there's not even evidence for it in the scriptures.
I know that time travel is possible and the resurrected Father, meaning Jesus, can go back and visit Abraham and sit down and have a meal with Abraham, even while Abraham only knows Him as Jehovah who is technically still a spirit.
So I believe that sometimes the scriptures use "God the Father" to denote the "Great Spirit" that we worship and pray to. Other times the scriptures use the term "Father" to describe Jehovah/Jesus in His resurrected state, which form He is able to take whenever He wants, it doesn't matter if He's been born yet or not.
I don't believe "Heavenly Father" got Mary pregnant so Jesus could be born. (I know BYoung would disagree. ) I believe the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, just like the scriptures say. By that I mean that the Holy Ghost of Jesus (we all have our own personal holy ghosts, right- they're us) Jesus' holy ghost went into Mary's womb on its own. Through the power of the Universal God the Father, who organizes everyone's body, Jesus had a physical body created for Him when He entered Mary's womb. Hence the scriptures teach that Jesus is God incarnate, that He condescended to mortal level. Not because His dad was "Heavenly Father" who impregnated a mortal like a Zeus and Hercules type deal. I believe that Jehovah Himself just went straight to Mary's body.