Is Jesus our elder brother?

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butterfly
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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

alaris wrote:butterfly - I apologize for participating in a derailing this thread for a page or two, but I would like very much to get your feedback on my comments below. If I understand you correctly, you believe Jesus is the Father of our spirits. I do not know or understand all the mysteries of God or godhood and appreciate your willingness to consider other ideas. I will certainly consider yours.

butterfly wrote:I'm going to quote marc's scripture chain from another thread because it really is worth pondering:

"John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I believe Jesus is teaching His disciples that he is becoming a Father Himself and that this is the process to become a Father. He is on the cusp of receiving a fullness, but He is not the same being. Remember D&C 93 where we learn that Jesus was call the Son of God because He did not receive a fullness at first. If you agree with this, then do you believe that Jesus still may have sired our spirits before He had received a fullness?

Exodus 3: 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I like what buffalo_girl said here - that I AM is a continuum. A fun interpretation of I AM is "unlike the other pagan gods that are being worshiped around these parts I actually exist--I am."

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;
3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—
4 The Father because he gave me of his fullness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

This is Jesus speaking in modern times after His resurrection, atonement, ascension, and reception of the fullness. He is stating in verse 4 that he is now a Father like the Father who sent Him.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father...
10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?...

Wow I had never thought of it quite like this before, but I believe what Abinidi is saying here is that during a Savior's sojourn, He is begotten by both a heavenly parent and an earthly because He is becoming one and mastering the other...and then leaving the weakness of the flesh behind to fully become a Father Himself. The Son submits His will to the Father means He is subjecting Himself to the worst treatment, the worst temptations and showing that He is no longer acting like a child of God but a God Himself--hence the Son's will aka weakness of the flesh is swallowed up (or mastered) to become the will of the Father - or the order of Fathers. This is how to become a God.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.


This was before His ascension, so this is a bit more tricky. However, I have a new understanding of "shall become my sons and daughters." I believe this may be the answer to firstborn. Why is it important to spiritually become Jesus's son or daughter? Is this related to how Jesus Himself became firstborn? As He progressed from grace to grace or from atonement to atonement (D&C 93,) was He spiritually begotten at some point in the same way?



JSH 1:17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Two beings.

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.


Jehovah goes on to call Moses His son. He has also called others His son(s):

D&C 39:1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—
2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;
4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.

As an ascended Father who will likely go on to create His own spirit children, who will Jesus take with Him - who has earned Firstborn? Does a Father have one Son or does he have more than one - each with their own domain of worlds where they are the only begotten within their own space?

D&C 31:1 Thomas, my son, blessed are you because of your faith in my work.
2 Behold, you have had many afflictions because of your family; nevertheless, I will bless you and your family, yea, your little ones; and the day cometh that they will believe and know the truth and be one with you in my church.

D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;
2 The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;

See above. It is my belief that you must become a son before you can become a father. You have to descend below all before you can receive all.

3 Nephi:20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.
21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.
22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.
23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

See the thread on the identity of the Holy Ghost--it gives a unique perspective on verse 20 above. If these souls are progressing from grace to grace as Jesus did and the same way we must (King Follet), then that would also give new meaning to chosen "out of the world." Verse 21 also takes on new meeting given both of these contexts.

Then there's the most obvious one: D&C 109 where Joseph Smith prays to Jehovah as the Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ when dedicating the temple. The Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer was specifically given to Joseph Smith by revelation. He did not make these words up. Prayerfully study who Joseph Smith is addressing and the names used to address Him.

D&C109:1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts...
4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build...
10 And now, Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance...
42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.
43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee;
44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours....
68 O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., and all his afflictions and persecutions—how he has covenanted with Jehovah, and vowed to thee, O Mighty God of Jacob—and the commandments which thou hast given unto him, and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will.
69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand...
78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name;
79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb!"

My only thought here is that Joseph Smith Jr. would know better than anyone that Jehovah has now earned the title "Holy Father" and mentions Jesus Christ as "the son of they bosom" as a separate and distinct role and accomplishment from His new title--not that Jehovah and Elohim are the same person. This does seem confusing though I will admit. None of the other scriptures convince me that the Elohim who sent Jehovah and Jehovah are the same guy. Jehovah has become one of the Elohim.

This comes from this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40507&p=660691&hili ... on#p660691" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for sharing your insights. I think anyone would notice you've really studied and researched this a lot and I think it's great you are willing to share ideas that are less commonly considered.
Here's what I know: the Universal God, whom Jesus refers to as "the Father" is the God that we worship and pray to. This God is described as spirit in the scriptures and in lectures on faith. This God is much more than just a man like the Joseph Smith first vision depicts. Joseph Smith had a vision, which is different than a visitation. If I were to visit you, I would see you exactly how you are; I could note your height, weight, etc. But in a vision, you could be represented as a lamb, letting me know that you mean me no harm, I can trust you, etc. So the first vision was not a literal explanation of how God the Father is.

Once I realized this, my next question was "Then who are my Heavenly Parents"? Multiple times I was taught that Jehovah/Jesus is my Heavenly Father. Now, I don't know what type of father He is. Did He sire my spirit? Idk.
Since our spirits are organized out of matter, and the Universal God makes up all matter, then quite literally we are the offspring of the Universal God because our spirits are made up of the stuff that is God.

I think we were birthed by heavenly parents- I have spirit parents and you have your own spirit parents, too, very similar to what it's like here on earth where everyone has their own families. This is just a theory, though.

But what I do know is when I asked the Savior who my Heavenly Parents were, and He told me He was my Father, and I, very confused, said " but you're my elder brother ", He immediately replied "where in the scriptures does it say that?" And the tone He used was to imply that me thinking He was my elder brother was a kind of unbelief, a philosophy of man, that I could easily let go of because there's not even evidence for it in the scriptures.

I know that time travel is possible and the resurrected Father, meaning Jesus, can go back and visit Abraham and sit down and have a meal with Abraham, even while Abraham only knows Him as Jehovah who is technically still a spirit.

So I believe that sometimes the scriptures use "God the Father" to denote the "Great Spirit" that we worship and pray to. Other times the scriptures use the term "Father" to describe Jehovah/Jesus in His resurrected state, which form He is able to take whenever He wants, it doesn't matter if He's been born yet or not.

I don't believe "Heavenly Father" got Mary pregnant so Jesus could be born. (I know BYoung would disagree. ) I believe the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, just like the scriptures say. By that I mean that the Holy Ghost of Jesus (we all have our own personal holy ghosts, right- they're us) Jesus' holy ghost went into Mary's womb on its own. Through the power of the Universal God the Father, who organizes everyone's body, Jesus had a physical body created for Him when He entered Mary's womb. Hence the scriptures teach that Jesus is God incarnate, that He condescended to mortal level. Not because His dad was "Heavenly Father" who impregnated a mortal like a Zeus and Hercules type deal. I believe that Jehovah Himself just went straight to Mary's body.

freedomforall
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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

:-? :-ss :ymsigh: (-|

freedomforall
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Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

butterfly wrote:Thanks for sharing your insights. I think anyone would notice you've really studied and researched this a lot and I think it's great you are willing to share ideas that are less commonly considered.
Here's what I know: the Universal God, whom Jesus refers to as "the Father" is the God that we worship and pray to. This God is described as spirit in the scriptures and in lectures on faith. This God is much more than just a man like the Joseph Smith first vision depicts. Joseph Smith had a vision, which is different than a visitation. If I were to visit you, I would see you exactly how you are; I could note your height, weight, etc. But in a vision, you could be represented as a lamb, letting me know that you mean me no harm, I can trust you, etc. So the first vision was not a literal explanation of how God the Father is.

Once I realized this, my next question was "Then who are my Heavenly Parents"? Multiple times I was taught that Jehovah/Jesus is my Heavenly Father. Now, I don't know what type of father He is. Did He sire my spirit? Idk.
Since our spirits are organized out of matter, and the Universal God makes up all matter, then quite literally we are the offspring of the Universal God because our spirits are made up of the stuff that is God.

I think we were birthed by heavenly parents- I have spirit parents and you have your own spirit parents, too, very similar to what it's like here on earth where everyone has their own families. This is just a theory, though.

But what I do know is when I asked the Savior who my Heavenly Parents were, and He told me He was my Father, and I, very confused, said " but you're my elder brother ", He immediately replied "where in the scriptures does it say that?" And the tone He used was to imply that me thinking He was my elder brother was a kind of unbelief, a philosophy of man, that I could easily let go of because there's not even evidence for it in the scriptures.

I know that time travel is possible and the resurrected Father, meaning Jesus, can go back and visit Abraham and sit down and have a meal with Abraham, even while Abraham only knows Him as Jehovah who is technically still a spirit.

So I believe that sometimes the scriptures use "God the Father" to denote the "Great Spirit" that we worship and pray to. Other times the scriptures use the term "Father" to describe Jehovah/Jesus in His resurrected state, which form He is able to take whenever He wants, it doesn't matter if He's been born yet or not.

I don't believe "Heavenly Father" got Mary pregnant so Jesus could be born. (I know BYoung would disagree. ) I believe the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, just like the scriptures say. By that I mean that the Holy Ghost of Jesus (we all have our own personal holy ghosts, right- they're us) Jesus' holy ghost went into Mary's womb on its own. Through the power of the Universal God the Father, who organizes everyone's body, Jesus had a physical body created for Him when He entered Mary's womb. Hence the scriptures teach that Jesus is God incarnate, that He condescended to mortal level. Not because His dad was "Heavenly Father" who impregnated a mortal like a Zeus and Hercules type deal. I believe that Jehovah Himself just went straight to Mary's body.
This question is directed straight to Butterfly...Is this absolutely, emphatically accurate and uncontested doctrine that scripture teaches us?

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:This question is directed straight to Butterfly...Is this absolutely, emphatically accurate and uncontested doctrine that scripture teaches us?
How about you get off her back?
It is her sincere personal understanding at this time.
How about you refrain from gouging people personally?
If you have concern about aspects of her belief, ask her for clarification and then share, in a respectful manner, how you disagree.
Then, perhaps, you can go back and fourth a bit to clear up any misunderstandings, etc.
And, then, perhaps either or both of you just might find a new nugget of truth to rejoice over.

In other words, is it really too much to ask of you to simply conduct yourself with The Spirit of Truth?

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Finrock »

butterfly wrote:
alaris wrote:butterfly - I apologize for participating in a derailing this thread for a page or two, but I would like very much to get your feedback on my comments below. If I understand you correctly, you believe Jesus is the Father of our spirits. I do not know or understand all the mysteries of God or godhood and appreciate your willingness to consider other ideas. I will certainly consider yours.

butterfly wrote:I'm going to quote marc's scripture chain from another thread because it really is worth pondering:

"John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I believe Jesus is teaching His disciples that he is becoming a Father Himself and that this is the process to become a Father. He is on the cusp of receiving a fullness, but He is not the same being. Remember D&C 93 where we learn that Jesus was call the Son of God because He did not receive a fullness at first. If you agree with this, then do you believe that Jesus still may have sired our spirits before He had received a fullness?

Exodus 3: 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I like what buffalo_girl said here - that I AM is a continuum. A fun interpretation of I AM is "unlike the other pagan gods that are being worshiped around these parts I actually exist--I am."

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;
3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—
4 The Father because he gave me of his fullness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

This is Jesus speaking in modern times after His resurrection, atonement, ascension, and reception of the fullness. He is stating in verse 4 that he is now a Father like the Father who sent Him.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father...
10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?...

Wow I had never thought of it quite like this before, but I believe what Abinidi is saying here is that during a Savior's sojourn, He is begotten by both a heavenly parent and an earthly because He is becoming one and mastering the other...and then leaving the weakness of the flesh behind to fully become a Father Himself. The Son submits His will to the Father means He is subjecting Himself to the worst treatment, the worst temptations and showing that He is no longer acting like a child of God but a God Himself--hence the Son's will aka weakness of the flesh is swallowed up (or mastered) to become the will of the Father - or the order of Fathers. This is how to become a God.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.


This was before His ascension, so this is a bit more tricky. However, I have a new understanding of "shall become my sons and daughters." I believe this may be the answer to firstborn. Why is it important to spiritually become Jesus's son or daughter? Is this related to how Jesus Himself became firstborn? As He progressed from grace to grace or from atonement to atonement (D&C 93,) was He spiritually begotten at some point in the same way?



JSH 1:17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Two beings.

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.


Jehovah goes on to call Moses His son. He has also called others His son(s):

D&C 39:1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—
2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;
4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.

As an ascended Father who will likely go on to create His own spirit children, who will Jesus take with Him - who has earned Firstborn? Does a Father have one Son or does he have more than one - each with their own domain of worlds where they are the only begotten within their own space?

D&C 31:1 Thomas, my son, blessed are you because of your faith in my work.
2 Behold, you have had many afflictions because of your family; nevertheless, I will bless you and your family, yea, your little ones; and the day cometh that they will believe and know the truth and be one with you in my church.

D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;
2 The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;

See above. It is my belief that you must become a son before you can become a father. You have to descend below all before you can receive all.

3 Nephi:20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.
21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.
22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.
23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

See the thread on the identity of the Holy Ghost--it gives a unique perspective on verse 20 above. If these souls are progressing from grace to grace as Jesus did and the same way we must (King Follet), then that would also give new meaning to chosen "out of the world." Verse 21 also takes on new meeting given both of these contexts.

Then there's the most obvious one: D&C 109 where Joseph Smith prays to Jehovah as the Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ when dedicating the temple. The Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer was specifically given to Joseph Smith by revelation. He did not make these words up. Prayerfully study who Joseph Smith is addressing and the names used to address Him.

D&C109:1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts...
4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build...
10 And now, Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance...
42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.
43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee;
44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours....
68 O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., and all his afflictions and persecutions—how he has covenanted with Jehovah, and vowed to thee, O Mighty God of Jacob—and the commandments which thou hast given unto him, and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will.
69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand...
78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name;
79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb!"

My only thought here is that Joseph Smith Jr. would know better than anyone that Jehovah has now earned the title "Holy Father" and mentions Jesus Christ as "the son of they bosom" as a separate and distinct role and accomplishment from His new title--not that Jehovah and Elohim are the same person. This does seem confusing though I will admit. None of the other scriptures convince me that the Elohim who sent Jehovah and Jehovah are the same guy. Jehovah has become one of the Elohim.

This comes from this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40507&p=660691&hili ... on#p660691" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for sharing your insights. I think anyone would notice you've really studied and researched this a lot and I think it's great you are willing to share ideas that are less commonly considered.
Here's what I know: the Universal God, whom Jesus refers to as "the Father" is the God that we worship and pray to. This God is described as spirit in the scriptures and in lectures on faith. This God is much more than just a man like the Joseph Smith first vision depicts. Joseph Smith had a vision, which is different than a visitation. If I were to visit you, I would see you exactly how you are; I could note your height, weight, etc. But in a vision, you could be represented as a lamb, letting me know that you mean me no harm, I can trust you, etc. So the first vision was not a literal explanation of how God the Father is.

Once I realized this, my next question was "Then who are my Heavenly Parents"? Multiple times I was taught that Jehovah/Jesus is my Heavenly Father. Now, I don't know what type of father He is. Did He sire my spirit? Idk.
Since our spirits are organized out of matter, and the Universal God makes up all matter, then quite literally we are the offspring of the Universal God because our spirits are made up of the stuff that is God.

I think we were birthed by heavenly parents- I have spirit parents and you have your own spirit parents, too, very similar to what it's like here on earth where everyone has their own families. This is just a theory, though.

But what I do know is when I asked the Savior who my Heavenly Parents were, and He told me He was my Father, and I, very confused, said " but you're my elder brother ", He immediately replied "where in the scriptures does it say that?" And the tone He used was to imply that me thinking He was my elder brother was a kind of unbelief, a philosophy of man, that I could easily let go of because there's not even evidence for it in the scriptures.

I know that time travel is possible and the resurrected Father, meaning Jesus, can go back and visit Abraham and sit down and have a meal with Abraham, even while Abraham only knows Him as Jehovah who is technically still a spirit.

So I believe that sometimes the scriptures use "God the Father" to denote the "Great Spirit" that we worship and pray to. Other times the scriptures use the term "Father" to describe Jehovah/Jesus in His resurrected state, which form He is able to take whenever He wants, it doesn't matter if He's been born yet or not.

I don't believe "Heavenly Father" got Mary pregnant so Jesus could be born. (I know BYoung would disagree. ) I believe the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, just like the scriptures say. By that I mean that the Holy Ghost of Jesus (we all have our own personal holy ghosts, right- they're us) Jesus' holy ghost went into Mary's womb on its own. Through the power of the Universal God the Father, who organizes everyone's body, Jesus had a physical body created for Him when He entered Mary's womb. Hence the scriptures teach that Jesus is God incarnate, that He condescended to mortal level. Not because His dad was "Heavenly Father" who impregnated a mortal like a Zeus and Hercules type deal. I believe that Jehovah Himself just went straight to Mary's body.
Although I can't speak for your personal revelation and what it is God is telling you, I can say that the Lectures on Faith describe the Father thusly:

"The Father...[is]...a personage of spirit, glory and power."

According to the Lectures on Faith, which I believe are true scripture and doctrine, He is not just a spirit. He is a personage of spirit, glory, and power. I think this word personage and the other designations of glory and power are important to understanding the character of God. I think that simply saying that God the Father is a spirit can imply or lead to an understanding of a being that is not a personage.

Another thing I would like to say that whether the interpretation that Jesus is our brother is correct or not, I think it is incorrect to state that there is no evidence of Jesus being our brother in the scriptures. A few posts ago, I provided, what I believe to be a reasonable and scripturally supported interpretation as to why people believe Jesus is our elder brother or that He is our brother. This notion that He is our brother did not just come out of nowhere, but it is supported by scripture and by the lectures on faith. Again, I am not arguing that this is the absolute correct interpretation, I'm simply arguing that it is a reasonable deduction given the scriptures and sources that are available that speak to this subject matter. I think that those who believe Jesus is our brother are not just waving in the wind, but their ideas are supported by scripture. I agree that there is no exact declaration in the scriptures that states Jesus is our elder brother, but nonetheless, using the faculties of reason and logic, this understand can be obtained and can be supported from scriptural record, including the Lectures on Faith.

-Finrock

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Alaris
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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

butterfly wrote: Once I realized this, my next question was "Then who are my Heavenly Parents"? Multiple times I was taught that Jehovah/Jesus is my Heavenly Father. Now, I don't know what type of father He is. Did He sire my spirit? Idk.
Since our spirits are organized out of matter, and the Universal God makes up all matter, then quite literally we are the offspring of the Universal God because our spirits are made up of the stuff that is God.

I think we were birthed by heavenly parents- I have spirit parents and you have your own spirit parents, too, very similar to what it's like here on earth where everyone has their own families. This is just a theory, though.

But what I do know is when I asked the Savior who my Heavenly Parents were, and He told me He was my Father, and I, very confused, said " but you're my elder brother ", He immediately replied "where in the scriptures does it say that?" And the tone He used was to imply that me thinking He was my elder brother was a kind of unbelief, a philosophy of man, that I could easily let go of because there's not even evidence for it in the scriptures.

I know that time travel is possible and the resurrected Father, meaning Jesus, can go back and visit Abraham and sit down and have a meal with Abraham, even while Abraham only knows Him as Jehovah who is technically still a spirit.

So I believe that sometimes the scriptures use "God the Father" to denote the "Great Spirit" that we worship and pray to. Other times the scriptures use the term "Father" to describe Jehovah/Jesus in His resurrected state, which form He is able to take whenever He wants, it doesn't matter if He's been born yet or not.
Thank you for sharing your personal beliefs and personal, sacred revelation which is very brave considering how some have been treated here and within this thread. I too have had personal revelation that at first seemed to immediately contradict earlier learning and church doctrine--the more I studied and pondered the more I realized the new revelation fit perfectly and expanded so many other truths. I am not saying I have synthesized what your are saying, but for the reasons listed above I can't throw it out either. I need to ponder it some more. Thank you again.

I agree with Finrock - there certainly is evidence that Jesus is our elder brother. My position is that this is not an appropriate title given who He is and what He has accomplished. Moreover there is a lot of evidence that the Sunday School description that Jesus was the first spirit Heavenly Father made in this creation who just happened to coincidentally proceed from grace to grace and learned and acquire light with his agency just doesn't make sense. If agency is the core to the plan, how does a God create a free being and ensure the first one he makes happens to use his agency a certain ... nope. King Follett, D&C 93, Jesus statements to be perfect as He is and His statements in Revelation 3- 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. All these statements and teachings indicate there is ONE way to become a God and that we must travel the same course. John 17 - "Thine they were." Jesus is speaking to God referring to His disciples. Those three words say so much in this context.

From those that think "they have enough" - from them shall be taken away that which they have. You can almost see this occur in front of your very eyes as part of the nature of reality is opposition. Every good event that I participated in whereupon my soul or another soul was brought closer to Christ - there was always, always opposition. The devil finding someone who has a knowledge of the scriptures and tries to persistently invite the spirit of contention...what a find. The best way you can react to one who is possessed with a lying spirit or a contentious spirit is to do the same thing we do for all the 1/3 part who source such - ignore them. The devil only receives power that is given to him.

Sharing personal revelation in a spirit of learning and respect where most are gathered in the name of the Lord with no other intention thn? Attempting to learn the mysterious of God and bring ourselves and each other closer to God in the process? - of course opposition is here attempting to destroy just as those in the large and spacious building pointing and mocking and attempting to shame the Lord's people off the path. Ignore and hold fast.

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

Self righteousness won't get one any points either.

2 Nephi 9:42
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

Mosiah 2:25
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Finrock »

freedomforall wrote:Self righteousness won't get one any points either.

2 Nephi 9:42
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

Mosiah 2:25
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.
Thanks for sharing insights about your struggles, freedomforall. We all have weaknesses we are working on. Maybe you can start a thread detailing your struggle with self-righteousness since in this thread we are discussing about Jesus being our brother?

-Finrock

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by buffalo_girl »

Actually, we may each need to wait until we are ''on the other side' to have every question answered.

I suspect we will be judged more on how we behaved based upon Christ's example of living Eternal LAW than on our personal insights - even inspired insights - regarding things we do not yet fully KNOW.

Being 'a sharecropper for the LORD' throughout eternity is my idea of heaven!

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:This question is directed straight to Butterfly...Is this absolutely, emphatically accurate and uncontested doctrine that scripture teaches us?
How about you get off her back?
It is her sincere personal understanding at this time.
How about you refrain from gouging people personally?
If you have concern about aspects of her belief, ask her for clarification and then share, in a respectful manner, how you disagree.
Then, perhaps, you can go back and fourth a bit to clear up any misunderstandings, etc.
And, then, perhaps either or both of you just might find a new nugget of truth to rejoice over.

In other words, is it really too much to ask of you to simply conduct yourself with The Spirit of Truth?
Thanks JWharton, you expressed my view point very accurately.

Freedomforall, to answer your question, Alaris very kindly asked me my personal opinion. So I gave it. I expressed very few things that I know to be true for me right now but I'm sure what I wrote could be understood in different ways so...No, what I've said is not emphatically accurate and uncontested doctrine. Most of it is merely my current belief and theory. I'm hoping others can share their beliefs and theories, too, so that we can all learn from each other.

The point is to progress. We can help each other if we are open to hearing new ideas and perspectives. Maybe the Spirit can use something that I say to teach a truth to someone else. But I would never want someone to believe anything I said just because I felt it was a truth for me.

So please kindly disregard anything I say that the Spirit doesn't teach you to be true. And when you share your opinions and beliefs, I'll do the same :)

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

Finrock wrote: Although I can't speak for your personal revelation and what it is God is telling you, I can say that the Lectures on Faith describe the Father thusly:

"The Father...[is]...a personage of spirit, glory and power."

According to the Lectures on Faith, which I believe are true scripture and doctrine, He is not just a spirit. He is a personage of spirit, glory, and power. I think this word personage and the other designations of glory and power are important to understanding the character of God. I think that simply saying that God the Father is a spirit can imply or lead to an understanding of a being that is not a personage.

Thanks, Finrock. I agree with what you're saying about God. I didn't want to get too much into it because I know there are so many different understandings about God. I was mainly just trying to differentiate between how many times we see the word "God" in the scripture and that often, one way to pick up on if it's talking about the Universal God, is that the scriptures will describe Him as being spirit. That's what I was trying to point out, that the God who is spirit is referring to the Universal God.
Another thing I would like to say that whether the interpretation that Jesus is our brother is correct or not, I think it is incorrect to state that there is no evidence of Jesus being our brother in the scriptures. A few posts ago, I provided, what I believe to be a reasonable and scripturally supported interpretation as to why people believe Jesus is our elder brother or that He is our brother. This notion that He is our brother did not just come out of nowhere, but it is supported by scripture and by the lectures on faith. Again, I am not arguing that this is the absolute correct interpretation, I'm simply arguing that it is a reasonable deduction given the scriptures and sources that are available that speak to this subject matter. I think that those who believe Jesus is our brother are not just waving in the wind, but their ideas are supported by scripture. I agree that there is no exact declaration in the scriptures that states Jesus is our elder brother, but nonetheless, using the faculties of reason and logic, this understand can be obtained and can be supported from scriptural record, including the Lectures on Faith.

-Finrock

That's true, you did point out scriptures that could understandably support the idea of Jesus being our Elder Brother. I didn't mean to discount those, thanks for pointing that out.

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

alaris wrote:
Thank you for sharing your personal beliefs and personal, sacred revelation which is very brave considering how some have been treated here and within this thread. I too have had personal revelation that at first seemed to immediately contradict earlier learning and church doctrine--the more I studied and pondered the more I realized the new revelation fit perfectly and expanded so many other truths. I am not saying I have synthesized what your are saying, but for the reasons listed above I can't throw it out either. I need to ponder it some more. Thank you again.
Same to you. I enjoy reading other people's perspectives. People like you or JWharton or so many others who really go out on a limb to share something because they hope that we can all be edified by it, I respect that so much.
I agree with Finrock - there certainly is evidence that Jesus is our elder brother. My position is that this is not an appropriate title given who He is and what He has accomplished. Moreover there is a lot of evidence that the Sunday School description that Jesus was the first spirit Heavenly Father made in this creation who just happened to coincidentally proceed from grace to grace and learned and acquire light with his agency just doesn't make sense. If agency is the core to the plan, how does a God create a free being and ensure the first one he makes happens to use his agency a certain ... nope. King Follett, D&C 93, Jesus statements to be perfect as He is and His statements in Revelation 3- 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. All these statements and teachings indicate there is ONE way to become a God and that we must travel the same course. John 17 - "Thine they were." Jesus is speaking to God referring to His disciples. Those three words say so much in this context.
This is a very logical way to look at it and it makes sense to me, too. There are SO MANY gods, so many spirits and creations, time has existed indefinitely...how can we suppose that Jesus was the very first to have been created and simply because of that one thing- birth order- He was consequently perfect? I agree that the King Follet discourse explains that we all go through a progression like the gods before us have. I don't believe that we have to become Saviors and perform an atonement exactly as Jesus did. I think we become part of the church of the Firstborn which includes us all taking up our own crosses and enduring our personal hardships in the way that a Christ would, but I don't believe that I will personally have to return to the earth and perform an atonement. D&C talks about how we receive all that God has to give us as a result of receiving our Calling and Election. This is why I think it's not necessary to do precisely what Jesus Himself did, meaning taking upon us all the sins of a world.

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Finrock »

As I was rereading the Lectures on Faith I noticed something that I think I've noticed before but didn't take time to ponder but wanted to do so now. Concerning the Son in the Fifth lecture it has the following questions and answers:

Question 7: What is the Son?
Answer: First, he is a personage of tabernacle. Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man. Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the Father.

Question 11: Why was he called the Son?
Answer: Because of the flesh.

The Lectures on Faith clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is the Son. But, the answer to why he is called the Son is because of the flesh. What is missing in this answer is the idea that Jesus is called the Son because He is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, whether firstborn or otherwise.

My question is why does having flesh cause one to be called the Son? I am not sure I see the connection and at this point I would just simply need to accept this as truth without understanding why it is true. I can understand if, to use the same terms as butterfly, the Universal God sired the body of Jesus that Jesus is called the Son because of the flesh. If, as butterfly states, the Spirit of Jesus Christ entered the womb of Mary and that is how the flesh of Jesus was conceived, then I cannot see why Jesus would be called the Son because of the flesh.

-Finrock

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

Finrock wrote:As I was rereading the Lectures on Faith I noticed something that I think I've noticed before but didn't take time to ponder but wanted to do so now. Concerning the Son in the Fifth lecture it has the following questions and answers:

Question 7: What is the Son?
Answer: First, he is a personage of tabernacle. Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man. Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the Father.

Question 11: Why was he called the Son?
Answer: Because of the flesh.

The Lectures on Faith clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is the Son. But, the answer to why he is called the Son is because of the flesh. What is missing in this answer is the idea that Jesus is called the Son because He is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, whether firstborn or otherwise.

My question is why does having flesh cause one to be called the Son? I am not sure I see the connection and at this point I would just simply need to accept this as truth without understanding why it is true. I can understand if, to use the same terms as butterfly, the Universal God sired the body of Jesus that Jesus is called the Son because of the flesh. If, as butterfly states, the Spirit of Jesus Christ entered the womb of Mary and that is how the flesh of Jesus was conceived, then I cannot see why Jesus would be called the Son because of the flesh.

-Finrock

It's not very clear to me what you're saying in the part I underlined. ^^^^^Could you explain more, pls?

The scriptures teach that all the inhabitants of the earth are begotten sons and daughters unto God. So, in this instance, anyone who comes to earth and gets a body automatically becomes a son or daughter because they now have flesh.

Whenever Jesus is described as being the son, it is simply because He came to earth and got a body. I don't find really any other reason for what makes Him a son. I haven't found something that says, for example, that He's a son because He had an immortal Father like Zeus was for Hercules or any other type of mixed parentage. Mary was a virgin - nobody had sex with her, not even God.

He's a son because He came to earth and got a body.
Last edited by butterfly on February 9th, 2017, 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

butterfly wrote:
jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:This question is directed straight to Butterfly...Is this absolutely, emphatically accurate and uncontested doctrine that scripture teaches us?
How about you get off her back?
It is her sincere personal understanding at this time.
How about you refrain from gouging people personally?
If you have concern about aspects of her belief, ask her for clarification and then share, in a respectful manner, how you disagree.
Then, perhaps, you can go back and fourth a bit to clear up any misunderstandings, etc.
And, then, perhaps either or both of you just might find a new nugget of truth to rejoice over.

In other words, is it really too much to ask of you to simply conduct yourself with The Spirit of Truth?
Thanks JWharton, you expressed my view point very accurately.

Freedomforall, to answer your question, Alaris very kindly asked me my personal opinion. So I gave it. I expressed very few things that I know to be true for me right now but I'm sure what I wrote could be understood in different ways so...No, what I've said is not emphatically accurate and uncontested doctrine. Most of it is merely my current belief and theory. I'm hoping others can share their beliefs and theories, too, so that we can all learn from each other.

The point is to progress. We can help each other if we are open to hearing new ideas and perspectives. Maybe the Spirit can use something that I say to teach a truth to someone else. But I would never want someone to believe anything I said just because I felt it was a truth for me.

So please kindly disregard anything I say that the Spirit doesn't teach you to be true. And when you share your opinions and beliefs, I'll do the same :)
You've expressed yourself very eloquently, and I appreciate your candor and straightforwardness. I just wanted to know if your thoughts are your own or if they are based on learning and adopting any portion of false doctrine brought forth.
I would be happy to share my thoughts with you if you will take them in the same spirit as given. I use as much scripture as possible so that the word of he Lord can enter your heart. My true intent, and God knows this, is to present true gospel as if it came out of the mouth of God, himself. This has been my deepest desire ever since I came onto this forum six years ago. Resistance and unbelief have been a stumbling block as it was to Jesus during his ministry. If I cannot answer a question, I will state so. If I don't know an answer, I will state so. I do not believe in pulling wool over anyone's eyes. Like some posters I am not on an ego trip.
Bottom line is this: you must choose which spirit you list to pay heed to, God's word or the precepts of men. And if you choose to not dialog with me, I'm fine with that too. I'm not here to twist arms. But I will stand against false doctrine as scripture states to do.

D&C 50:25
25 And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you
Last edited by freedomforall on February 9th, 2017, 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

Finrock wrote:As I was rereading the Lectures on Faith I noticed something that I think I've noticed before but didn't take time to ponder but wanted to do so now. Concerning the Son in the Fifth lecture it has the following questions and answers:

Question 7: What is the Son?
Answer: First, he is a personage of tabernacle. Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man. Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the Father.

Question 11: Why was he called the Son?
Answer: Because of the flesh.

The Lectures on Faith clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is the Son. But, the answer to why he is called the Son is because of the flesh. What is missing in this answer is the idea that Jesus is called the Son because He is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, whether firstborn or otherwise.

My question is why does having flesh cause one to be called the Son? I am not sure I see the connection and at this point I would just simply need to accept this as truth without understanding why it is true. I can understand if, to use the same terms as butterfly, the Universal God sired the body of Jesus that Jesus is called the Son because of the flesh. If, as butterfly states, the Spirit of Jesus Christ entered the womb of Mary and that is how the flesh of Jesus was conceived, then I cannot see why Jesus would be called the Son because of the flesh.

-Finrock
I believe D&C 93 has the answer to your question. He was called the son because he did not receive a fullness at first. The flesh represents the natural man - temptation and pain and hunger and all those things we come here to experience. He is the only one to master it. It is the last step. Live a perfect life. Submit your will and take the cup. Suffer more than any being in creation. Be the first to rise. He had to do accomplish all those things in order to receive a fullness. The word Son represents a child who still has something to learn and something to accomplish before they can fully become the Father who sired Him. Once he has learned and accomplished these things He can be entrusted with all power because He has earned it and demonstrated such.

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Finrock »

butterfly wrote:
Finrock wrote:As I was rereading the Lectures on Faith I noticed something that I think I've noticed before but didn't take time to ponder but wanted to do so now. Concerning the Son in the Fifth lecture it has the following questions and answers:

Question 7: What is the Son?
Answer: First, he is a personage of tabernacle. Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man. Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the Father.

Question 11: Why was he called the Son?
Answer: Because of the flesh.

The Lectures on Faith clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is the Son. But, the answer to why he is called the Son is because of the flesh. What is missing in this answer is the idea that Jesus is called the Son because He is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, whether firstborn or otherwise.

My question is why does having flesh cause one to be called the Son? I am not sure I see the connection and at this point I would just simply need to accept this as truth without understanding why it is true. I can understand if, to use the same terms as butterfly, the Universal God sired the body of Jesus that Jesus is called the Son because of the flesh. If, as butterfly states, the Spirit of Jesus Christ entered the womb of Mary and that is how the flesh of Jesus was conceived, then I cannot see why Jesus would be called the Son because of the flesh.

-Finrock

It's not very clear to me what you're saying in the part I underlined. ^^^^^Could you explain more, pls?

The scriptures teach that all the inhabitants of the earth are begotten sons and daughters unto God. So, in this instance, anyone who comes to earth and gets a body automatically becomes a son or daughter because they now have flesh.

Whenever Jesus is described as being the son, it is simply because He came to earth and got a body. I don't find really any other reason for what makes Him a son. I haven't found something that says, for example, that He's a son because He had an immortal Father like Zeus was for Hercules or any other type of mixed parentage.

He's a son because He came to earth and got a body.
In the underlined part I'm saying that it makes sense to me, for instance, that I am a son because my father sired me. I am a son because I came from the sexual union of a man and a woman which resulted in my body being formed/created. So, if the Universal God sired the physical body of Jesus, it makes sense to me that Jesus would be called the Son, due to Him receiving His flesh from the union of the Universal God with a woman. I'm just saying that this makes sense and not trying to make any truth claims here. On the other hand, if Jesus enters the womb of Mary and He was not sired by another personage, be it the Universal God or some other being, then I do not see how the flesh makes one a son. In that case Jesus would not have a father, because He is responsible for the conception of His own body.

Now, I thought the scriptures say that Jesus is the only begotten son of God in the flesh? John 3:16 for instance says the Jesus is the only begotten son of God.

Thanks for the response.

-Finrock

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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Finrock »

alaris wrote:
Finrock wrote:As I was rereading the Lectures on Faith I noticed something that I think I've noticed before but didn't take time to ponder but wanted to do so now. Concerning the Son in the Fifth lecture it has the following questions and answers:

Question 7: What is the Son?
Answer: First, he is a personage of tabernacle. Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man. Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the Father.

Question 11: Why was he called the Son?
Answer: Because of the flesh.

The Lectures on Faith clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is the Son. But, the answer to why he is called the Son is because of the flesh. What is missing in this answer is the idea that Jesus is called the Son because He is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, whether firstborn or otherwise.

My question is why does having flesh cause one to be called the Son? I am not sure I see the connection and at this point I would just simply need to accept this as truth without understanding why it is true. I can understand if, to use the same terms as butterfly, the Universal God sired the body of Jesus that Jesus is called the Son because of the flesh. If, as butterfly states, the Spirit of Jesus Christ entered the womb of Mary and that is how the flesh of Jesus was conceived, then I cannot see why Jesus would be called the Son because of the flesh.

-Finrock
I believe D&C 93 has the answer to your question. He was called the son because he did not receive a fullness at first. The flesh represents the natural man - temptation and pain and hunger and all those things we come here to experience. He is the only one to master it. It is the last step. Live a perfect life. Submit your will and take the cup. Suffer more than any being in creation. Be the first to rise. He had to do accomplish all those things in order to receive a fullness. The word Son represents a child who still has something to learn and something to accomplish before they can fully become the Father who sired Him. Once he has learned and accomplished these things He can be entrusted with all power because He has earned it and demonstrated such.
Okay, I will take a look at D&C 93.

-Finrock

freedomforall
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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

Finrock wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Self righteousness won't get one any points either.

2 Nephi 9:42
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

Mosiah 2:25
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.
Thanks for sharing insights about your struggles, freedomforall. We all have weaknesses we are working on. Maybe you can start a thread detailing your struggle with self-righteousness since in this thread we are discussing about Jesus being our brother?

-Finrock
You misinterpreted my statement. Self righteousness is not my stumbling block.
Also I can't understand why it takes so many pages to come to know that Jesus is our Elder Brother, because he was born in spirit prior to you and I...making him our brother. He also created the earth we stand on and everything in it. He was chasen to come to earth and take upon himself our sins so we can get back into the presence of Father. Christ was a sinless man who did that for us...our brother and God loved us so much that he did what was necessary to bring us home. We have to accept his offering and do our part in that partnership. Christ will not do all the work and let us hand him wooden nickles. We must desire and work for salvation. repent from our sins and ask him to remove all stain from our soul so we are presentable to meet God and dwell with him in a Celestial state. A stained soul will never have that opportunity. It's in the book!

butterfly
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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

Finrock wrote:
butterfly wrote:
Finrock wrote:As I was rereading the Lectures on Faith I noticed something that I think I've noticed before but didn't take time to ponder but wanted to do so now. Concerning the Son in the Fifth lecture it has the following questions and answers:

Question 7: What is the Son?
Answer: First, he is a personage of tabernacle. Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man. Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the Father.

Question 11: Why was he called the Son?
Answer: Because of the flesh.

The Lectures on Faith clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is the Son. But, the answer to why he is called the Son is because of the flesh. What is missing in this answer is the idea that Jesus is called the Son because He is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, whether firstborn or otherwise.

My question is why does having flesh cause one to be called the Son? I am not sure I see the connection and at this point I would just simply need to accept this as truth without understanding why it is true. I can understand if, to use the same terms as butterfly, the Universal God sired the body of Jesus that Jesus is called the Son because of the flesh. If, as butterfly states, the Spirit of Jesus Christ entered the womb of Mary and that is how the flesh of Jesus was conceived, then I cannot see why Jesus would be called the Son because of the flesh.

-Finrock

It's not very clear to me what you're saying in the part I underlined. ^^^^^Could you explain more, pls?

The scriptures teach that all the inhabitants of the earth are begotten sons and daughters unto God. So, in this instance, anyone who comes to earth and gets a body automatically becomes a son or daughter because they now have flesh.

Whenever Jesus is described as being the son, it is simply because He came to earth and got a body. I don't find really any other reason for what makes Him a son. I haven't found something that says, for example, that He's a son because He had an immortal Father like Zeus was for Hercules or any other type of mixed parentage.

He's a son because He came to earth and got a body.
In the underlined part I'm saying that it makes sense to me, for instance, that I am a son because my father sired me. I am a son because I came from the sexual union of a man and a woman which resulted in my body being formed/created. So, if the Universal God sired the physical body of Jesus, it makes sense to me that Jesus would be called the Son, due to Him receiving His flesh from the union of the Universal God with a woman. I'm just saying that this makes sense and not trying to make any truth claims here. On the other hand, if Jesus enters the womb of Mary and He was not sired by another personage, be it the Universal God or some other being, then I do not see how the flesh makes one a son. In that case Jesus would not have a father, because He is responsible for the conception of His own body.

Now, I thought the scriptures say that Jesus is the only begotten son of God in the flesh? John 3:16 for instance says the Jesus is the only begotten son of God.

Thanks for the response.

-Finrock
Wow, it's amazing how we can all interpret scriptures so differently - I really am enjoying this. You and I interpret "son" differently. You see "son" as a man and a woman have sex and a boy is born. I see son, in this instance, as the same person in a different estate. So Jesus, when He is resurrected, is a Father. Jesus on earth with a mortal/flesh body is a Son. Jesus in the premortal existence with a spirit body is a Holy Ghost.

We have the godhead for Jesus: The Father (Jesus when He has received of the fullness, He's resurrected, completed His mission, etc)

The Son (He's in His mortal tabernacle here on earth, He's the son because now He's got flesh, because He is now in His second estate - Mary was a virgin. No one had sex with her, not even God, so Jesus being a son doesn't relate to somehow being conceived by God and Mary having sex, imo)

The Holy Ghost (the Spirit, Jehovah)

Each of us, imo, have our own "godheads" like this. We have our estates where we are a Holy Ghost, a Son/Daughter, and a Father/Mother.

butterfly
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Posts: 1004

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

alaris wrote:
Finrock wrote:As I was rereading the Lectures on Faith I noticed something that I think I've noticed before but didn't take time to ponder but wanted to do so now. Concerning the Son in the Fifth lecture it has the following questions and answers:

Question 7: What is the Son?
Answer: First, he is a personage of tabernacle. Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man. Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the Father.

Question 11: Why was he called the Son?
Answer: Because of the flesh.

The Lectures on Faith clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is the Son. But, the answer to why he is called the Son is because of the flesh. What is missing in this answer is the idea that Jesus is called the Son because He is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, whether firstborn or otherwise.

My question is why does having flesh cause one to be called the Son? I am not sure I see the connection and at this point I would just simply need to accept this as truth without understanding why it is true. I can understand if, to use the same terms as butterfly, the Universal God sired the body of Jesus that Jesus is called the Son because of the flesh. If, as butterfly states, the Spirit of Jesus Christ entered the womb of Mary and that is how the flesh of Jesus was conceived, then I cannot see why Jesus would be called the Son because of the flesh.

-Finrock
I believe D&C 93 has the answer to your question. He was called the son because he did not receive a fullness at first. The flesh represents the natural man - temptation and pain and hunger and all those things we come here to experience. He is the only one to master it. It is the last step. Live a perfect life. Submit your will and take the cup. Suffer more than any being in creation. Be the first to rise. He had to do accomplish all those things in order to receive a fullness. The word Son represents a child who still has something to learn and something to accomplish before they can fully become the Father who sired Him. Once he has learned and accomplished these things He can be entrusted with all power because He has earned it and demonstrated such.
What do you mean by saying that Jesus is "the only one to master it"?
Do you mean that He was the only one who was perfect, like the only one who was able to overcome sin or do you mean something else?

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Finrock »

freedomforall wrote:
Finrock wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Self righteousness won't get one any points either.

2 Nephi 9:42
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

Mosiah 2:25
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.
Thanks for sharing insights about your struggles, freedomforall. We all have weaknesses we are working on. Maybe you can start a thread detailing your struggle with self-righteousness since in this thread we are discussing about Jesus being our brother?

-Finrock
You misinterpreted my statement. Self righteousness is not my stumbling block.
I see. Then, your statement doesn't make sense to me, unless you were judging someone else and accusing them of being self-righteous, which, when you think about it, that act of judging and accusing another would be self-righteous. No?
freedomforall wrote:Also I can't understand why it takes so many pages to come to know that Jesus is our Elder Brother, because he was born in spirit prior to you and I...making him our brother. He also created the earth we stand on and everything in it. He was chasen to come to earth and take upon himself our sins so we can get back into the presence of Father. Christ was a sinless man who did that for us...our brother and God loved us so much that he did what was necessary to bring us home. We have to accept his offering and do our part in that partnership. Christ will not do all the work and let us hand him wooden nickles. We must desire and work for salvation. repent from our sins and ask him to remove all stain from our soul so we are presentable to meet God and dwell with him in a Celestial state. A stained soul will never have that opportunity. It's in the book!
If you can't understand why it takes so many pages to come to a consensus, then my suggestion to you is to join the conversation. Respectfully and sincerely provide your input and then be ready to sincerely read and attempt to understand what others are saying. We are all on equal footing here and regardless that we might disagree, by treating each other with respect and attempting to understand one another, we can all be edified and uplifted. Then you can see why there may be many pages because there are many spirits who are contributing and sharing their thoughts and ideas.

-Finrock

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Alaris
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Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

butterfly wrote:
alaris wrote:
Finrock wrote:As I was rereading the Lectures on Faith I noticed something that I think I've noticed before but didn't take time to ponder but wanted to do so now. Concerning the Son in the Fifth lecture it has the following questions and answers:

Question 7: What is the Son?
Answer: First, he is a personage of tabernacle. Secondly, and being a personage of tabernacle, was made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man. Thirdly, he is also in the likeness of the personage of the Father.

Question 11: Why was he called the Son?
Answer: Because of the flesh.

The Lectures on Faith clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is the Son. But, the answer to why he is called the Son is because of the flesh. What is missing in this answer is the idea that Jesus is called the Son because He is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, whether firstborn or otherwise.

My question is why does having flesh cause one to be called the Son? I am not sure I see the connection and at this point I would just simply need to accept this as truth without understanding why it is true. I can understand if, to use the same terms as butterfly, the Universal God sired the body of Jesus that Jesus is called the Son because of the flesh. If, as butterfly states, the Spirit of Jesus Christ entered the womb of Mary and that is how the flesh of Jesus was conceived, then I cannot see why Jesus would be called the Son because of the flesh.

-Finrock
I believe D&C 93 has the answer to your question. He was called the son because he did not receive a fullness at first. The flesh represents the natural man - temptation and pain and hunger and all those things we come here to experience. He is the only one to master it. It is the last step. Live a perfect life. Submit your will and take the cup. Suffer more than any being in creation. Be the first to rise. He had to do accomplish all those things in order to receive a fullness. The word Son represents a child who still has something to learn and something to accomplish before they can fully become the Father who sired Him. Once he has learned and accomplished these things He can be entrusted with all power because He has earned it and demonstrated such.
What do you mean by saying that Jesus is "the only one to master it"?
Do you mean that He was the only one who was perfect, like the only one who was able to overcome sin or do you mean something else?
Sorry I try to avoid impersonal pronouns. Jesus is the only one to master the flesh.

I agree with you about Jesus taking on different roles but I believe they span several creations.

Here is a quote from Joseph Smith recorded by Franklin Richards.
Furthermore, “The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards
There is an amazing thread on these forums on the identity of the Holy ghost. I may link it later but it's easy to find with the search tool. I believe Franklin Richards may have misheard or misunderstood Joseph Smith but he definitely captured an important idea... That Jesus was once a Holy Ghost and that becoming a Son or Savior is the next step for a successful probation as Holy Ghost. Elder Brother? Well yeah... But it's misleading :)

butterfly
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Posts: 1004

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

freedomforall wrote: You've expressed yourself very eloquently, and I appreciate your candor and straightforwardness. I just wanted to know if your thoughts are your own or if they are based on learning and adopting any portion of false doctrine brought forth.
I would be happy to share my thoughts with you if you will take them in the same spirit as given. I use as much scripture as possible so that the word of he Lord can enter your heart. My true intent, and God knows this, is to present true gospel as if it came out of the mouth of God, himself. This has been my deepest desire ever since I came onto this forum six years ago. Resistance and unbelief have been a stumbling block as it was to Jesus during his ministry. If I cannot answer a question, I will state so. If I don't know an answer, I will state so. I do not believe in pulling wool over anyone's eyes. Like some posters I am not on an ego trip.
Bottom line is this: you must choose which spirit you list to pay heed to, God's word or the precepts of men. And if you choose to not dialog with me, I'm fine with that too. I'm not here to twist arms. But I will stand against false doctrine as scripture states to do.

D&C 50:25
25 And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you
Yes, I've noticed that I agree with you on several points because you go directly to the scriptures. I think that's great. I appreciate that you are straightforward and not trying to be deceptive. I think the only thing we really differ on is in what to do when someone believes differently than you or I do.

I used to think that phrases like "Stand for truth and righteousness" meant that I had to really fight against anyone who disagreed with what I felt to be true. But now I believe that a Zion people is less about everyone believing the same way and more about everyone having the space to believe what they feel is right for them.

As long as agency is respected, I think that God allows for a whole range of beliefs and behaviors in a Zion community. So I try not to "prove" people wrong. I enjoy a friendly discussion, but I don't feel like the Lord supports me when I try to "defend" Him.

I would definitely enjoy hearing your thoughts and I will know that you are expressing them sincerely.

butterfly
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Posts: 1004

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by butterfly »

alaris wrote: Sorry I try to avoid impersonal pronouns. Jesus is the only one to master the flesh.

I agree with you about Jesus taking on different roles but I believe they span several creations.

Here is a quote from Joseph Smith recorded by Franklin Richards.
Furthermore, “The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards
There is an amazing thread on these forums on the identity of the Holy ghost. I may link it later but it's easy to find with the search tool. I believe Franklin Richards may have misheard or misunderstood Joseph Smith but he definitely captured an important idea... That Jesus was once a Holy Ghost and that becoming a Son or Savior is the next step for a successful probation as Holy Ghost. Elder Brother? Well yeah... But it's misleading :)
Ok, I think I see where you're coming from. So do you believe that there is only 1 Holy Ghost at a time? I believe that we all have our own individual Holy Ghosts, so Jesus has His, you have yours, etc. So with the quote you provided, I interpret it as saying that yes, there are Holy Ghosts in the premortal existence who are now in a state of probation. When they have performed in righteousness, meaning that they have progressed enough as a spirit, then they will pass through the same course as the Son. The course of the Son is to go on to the 2nd estate- to come to earth and get a body.

You see this process as happening on a bigger scale - like there's only 1 Savior at a time, only 1 Holy Ghost at a time, etc - is that right? Whereas I see us all participating in this at the same time, each with different jobs to do, but each progressing from Holy Ghost, to Son, to Father.

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