Is Jesus our elder brother?

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »


Let's see if you can take a contrary opinion cordially FFA. I promise to respect what you've said and respect you and ask for the same. My comments are in red.

freedomforall wrote:
buffalo_girl wrote:
Did you know that God the Father is my dad? And Jehovah's dad is my dad? That Jehovah was spiritually born before me, so he must be my older brother? Strange!
Also. did you know I was named after my mother?

I have no confirmation of your personal conviction.

Doctrine & Covenants 93
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.


Man - as intelligence - has always been with God. Parallel continuance. I AM = ETERNAL

Section 93 - Read on...
Among all the intelligences, God, the most intelligent of all created spirits for those intelligences. Jehovah is the First born in Spirit, not the first born intelligence because as you showed intelligence was and could not be created.

Abraham 3:21
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

Bolded for emphasis. "I came down in the beginning" certainly sounds like point A could have been before this creation. Amazing scripture!

24 And there stood (a)one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

(a) TG Jesus Christ---firstborn

Bolded for epmhasis. Michael means like unto God. This was the selection of the High Priest or Steward of Earth. Hence Michael vs the Dragon and not Jesus as His scope was over all His creation. I have a thorough post on this topic in the private area of the forum

Zech. 12:1
1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Heb. 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Bolded for epmhasis. The father of our spirits is Elohim ... which translates to Gods .. but one step at a time here

Christ https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/chris ... g&letter=c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The anointed (Greek) or Messiah (Hebrew). Jesus, who is called Christ, is the firstborn of the Father in the spirit and the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. He is Jehovah and was foreordained to His great calling in the Grand Councils before the world was. He was born of Mary at Bethlehem, lived a sinless life, and wrought out a perfect atonement for all mankind by the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross. He rose from the grave and brought to pass the bodily resurrection of every living thing and the salvation and exaltation of the faithful.

He is the greatest Being to be born on this earth—the perfect example—and all religious things should be done in His name. He is Lord of lords, King of kings, the Creator, the Savior, the God of the whole earth, the Captain of our salvation, the Bright and Morning Star. He is in all things, above all things, through all things, and round about all things; He is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; His name is above every name and is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved.

He will come again in power and glory to dwell on the earth and will stand as Judge of all mankind at the last day. See also Anointed One; Christ, names of; Jesus.

Bolded for epmhasis. Firstly, this is not scripture. Secondly, It would have been easy to say "the first born spirit of the Father." "In the spirit" sounds a lot like being born spiritually - perhaps an ordinance similar to baptism but for the chosen Savior who is brought into a new creation.

Pay close attention to this one:

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
No bold on my part here. This is not proof that Jesus was created at the beginning of our creation. He was created before and has taught us we must be perfect the same way He became perfect:

Revelation 3
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Joseph Smith King Follet Sermon

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.


What is grace? Who is the ONLY being who offers grace in a creation?

D&C 93
11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.
12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;
13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;
14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.
15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.
16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;
17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.
18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.


Before Jesus Atonement and Resurrection:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


After Jesus' Atonement and Resurrection:

3 Nephi 12:48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.


Note the added language. Also, note that Christ is commanding us to be perfect even as He or Father is perfect. Well how did they become perfect? How does D&C 93 tell us to become perfect? If it's the same way, then the Lord Jesus Christ entered this creation from a past creation the same way we must do so moving forward.

Edit: The scripture above, John 20:17 is genuinely exciting. Read it again after digesting my post here. If you follow what I'm saying - that Jesus may be eldest because he has gone from grace (atonement) to grace (atonement) .. then the Elohim (translates to Gods) who organized His spirit from intelligence may be different from your Elohim. Catch my drift? Now read this again:

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


It is simply amazing how pearls are hidden in plain sight! Also re-read D&C 93: 18 & 19

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.


It's almost as if He is saying, "Gee I wish I could spell this out even more plainly ... but you will have to be faithful to these sayings ... (i.e. not mock or contend with others who want to discuss these things) so you may understand who and what you are worshiping ... an exalted man who was a man once like yourself...and that you must go through the exact same process .. grace to grace ... exaltation to exaltation.
[/color]
Last edited by Alaris on February 7th, 2017, 12:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by rewcox »

alaris wrote:If it's the same way, then the Lord Jesus Christ entered this creation from a past creation the same way we must do so.
Can you clarify what you mean here? I don't think this is standard LDS doctrine so I'm trying to understand what you mean to say.

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

rewcox wrote:
alaris wrote:If it's the same way, then the Lord Jesus Christ entered this creation from a past creation the same way we must do so.
Can you clarify what you mean here? I don't think this is standard LDS doctrine so I'm trying to understand what you mean to say.
Sure.

King Follet basically says that Heavenly Father was once a Savior himself and that Jesus was doing the things He saw His father do. Even though I have long understood that Heavenly Father was once a Savior, I took these comments to mean that Jesus learned to be perfect by watching Heavenly Father in heaven walking around being perfect and that He even witnessed Heavenly Father's sojourn as Creator and Savior by revelation. I now believe that He literally means He saw Heavenly Father save a creation ... as one of his disciples.
John 3:3 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
This gives me the chills just thinking about it. The more I study and ponder .. the more makes sense ..just like any new principle or layer ... it does fit and expounds the meaning of so much!

The first response to this thought may be .. "wait does this mean reincarnation?" No. We don't come back as flowers. But how else does one go from grace to grace? Here are some questions to ask:

Who saved Heavenly Father?
If Heavenly Father wasn't a Savior then wouldn't he be subject to Jesus the moment Jesus is exalted and returns to his presence having accomplished something so extraordinary and beyond comprehension that the Father himself did not accomplish?

From King Follet:
you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace
Revelation reveals 8 steps in this process with the word "overcometh" - they are rungs on a ladder. I need some time to write out a post on this, but it is simply amazing. Jesus even mentions His new name - the process of receiving a new name is highly symbolic of the process of proceeding from one creation to another with a new role, a new name - from one small degree to another ... from a small capacity to a great one. Jesus new name will be that of the role of Heavenly Father as He starts a new creation with a chosen Savior. Who will save His spirit children?

This isn't "standard" doctrine discussed in Sunday school. I do believe this doctrine was known and preached and understood by at least some of the Saints from the beginning until now. This is why Joseph Smith had several laments about being unable to teach the saints anything that contradicted the traditions of their fathers. This is why Joseph Smith lamented that he wished he could tell the saints who he is--think about that for a long moment. What could he possibly have said that would have been more awesome and more difficult for them to comprehend that was beyond the truth they already accepted--that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration?

Reincarnation definitely does not encapsulate the idea of proceeding from one creation to another - from one grace to another ... from one exaltation to another.

Edit: The number 8 represents renewal or rebirth. Baptism represents rebirth. These symbols are deeper than most LDS understand. Rebirth. Reborn spiritually sure. New name? Rebirth and new names. The sabbath went from the 7th day to the 1st. Why? I believe at least one of the symbols here is the sabbath went from the 7th day to the 8th day - or the first day of the next week - the next iteration - the next creation. Jesus is now ascended and received all that the father hath. This is why the sabbath changed to the 8th day because on that day - Jesus finished the symbolic measure of his 7 day period as Son and became a perfected, ascended God. So the sabbath being the 7th day during BC symbolizes Jehovah is at the end of his last day as Son until He achieved the atonment and resurrection - then He begins the first day of His new role with His new name.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

alaris wrote:
rewcox wrote:
alaris wrote:If it's the same way, then the Lord Jesus Christ entered this creation from a past creation the same way we must do so.
Can you clarify what you mean here? I don't think this is standard LDS doctrine so I'm trying to understand what you mean to say.
Sure.

King Follet basically says that Heavenly Father was once a Savior himself and that Jesus was doing the things He saw His father do. Even though I have long understood that Heavenly Father was once a Savior, I took these comments to mean that Jesus learned to be perfect by watching Heavenly Father in heaven walking around being perfect and that He even witnessed Heavenly Father's sojourn as Creator and Savior by revelation. I now believe that He literally means He saw Heavenly Father save a creation ... as one of his disciples.
John 3:3 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
This gives me the chills just thinking about it. The more I study and ponder .. the more makes sense ..just like any new principle or layer ... it does fit and expounds the meaning of so much!

The first response to this thought may be .. "wait does this mean reincarnation?" No. We don't come back as flowers. But how else does one go from grace to grace? Here are some questions to ask:

Who saved Heavenly Father?
If Heavenly Father wasn't a Savior then wouldn't he be subject to Jesus the moment Jesus is exalted and returns to his presence having accomplished something so extraordinary and beyond comprehension that the Father himself did not accomplish?

From King Follet:
you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace
Revelation reveals 8 steps in this process with the word "overcometh" - they are rungs on a ladder. I need some time to write out a post on this, but it is simply amazing. Jesus even mentions His new name - the process of receiving a new name is highly symbolic of the process of proceeding from one creation to another with a new role, a new name - from one small degree to another ... from a small capacity to a great one. Jesus new name will be that of the role of Heavenly Father as He starts a new creation with a chosen Savior. Who will save His spirit children?

This isn't "standard" doctrine discussed in Sunday school. I do believe this doctrine was known and preached and understood by at least some of the Saints from the beginning until now. This is why Joseph Smith had several laments about being unable to teach the saints anything that contradicted the traditions of their fathers. This is why Joseph Smith lamented that he wished he could tell the saints who he is--think about that for a long moment. What could he possibly have said that would have been more awesome and more difficult for them to comprehend that was beyond the truth they already accepted--that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration?

Reincarnation definitely does not encapsulate the idea of proceeding from one creation to another - from one grace to another ... from one exaltation to another.

Edit: The number 8 represents renewal or rebirth. Baptism represents rebirth. These symbols are deeper than most LDS understand. Rebirth. Reborn spiritually sure. New name? Rebirth and new names. The sabbath went from the 7th day to the 1st. Why? I believe at least one of the symbols here is the sabbath went from the 7th day to the 8th day - or the first day of the next week - the next iteration - the next creation. Jesus is now ascended and received all that the father hath. This is why the sabbath changed to the 8th day because on that day - Jesus finished the symbolic measure of his 7 day period as Son and became a perfected, ascended God. So the sabbath being the 7th day during BC symbolizes Jehovah is at the end of his last day as Son until He achieved the atonment and resurrection - then He begins the first day of His new role with His new name.
Notation: King Follet papers are not scripture either, so now we are at an impasse. And what was said that you claimed is not scripture can be proved by scripture...as a matter of fact, I already have in many previous posts...posts that apparently go unread. Makes one wonder if actual scripture scares people off and the arm of flesh seems to be more appealing.

Doctrine against doctrine...who is trying to convince whom? This is the 64,000 dollar question.

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

freedomforall wrote:
alaris wrote:
rewcox wrote:
alaris wrote:If it's the same way, then the Lord Jesus Christ entered this creation from a past creation the same way we must do so.
Can you clarify what you mean here? I don't think this is standard LDS doctrine so I'm trying to understand what you mean to say.
Sure.

King Follet basically says that Heavenly Father was once a Savior himself and that Jesus was doing the things He saw His father do. Even though I have long understood that Heavenly Father was once a Savior, I took these comments to mean that Jesus learned to be perfect by watching Heavenly Father in heaven walking around being perfect and that He even witnessed Heavenly Father's sojourn as Creator and Savior by revelation. I now believe that He literally means He saw Heavenly Father save a creation ... as one of his disciples.
John 3:3 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
This gives me the chills just thinking about it. The more I study and ponder .. the more makes sense ..just like any new principle or layer ... it does fit and expounds the meaning of so much!

The first response to this thought may be .. "wait does this mean reincarnation?" No. We don't come back as flowers. But how else does one go from grace to grace? Here are some questions to ask:

Who saved Heavenly Father?
If Heavenly Father wasn't a Savior then wouldn't he be subject to Jesus the moment Jesus is exalted and returns to his presence having accomplished something so extraordinary and beyond comprehension that the Father himself did not accomplish?

From King Follet:
you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace
Revelation reveals 8 steps in this process with the word "overcometh" - they are rungs on a ladder. I need some time to write out a post on this, but it is simply amazing. Jesus even mentions His new name - the process of receiving a new name is highly symbolic of the process of proceeding from one creation to another with a new role, a new name - from one small degree to another ... from a small capacity to a great one. Jesus new name will be that of the role of Heavenly Father as He starts a new creation with a chosen Savior. Who will save His spirit children?

This isn't "standard" doctrine discussed in Sunday school. I do believe this doctrine was known and preached and understood by at least some of the Saints from the beginning until now. This is why Joseph Smith had several laments about being unable to teach the saints anything that contradicted the traditions of their fathers. This is why Joseph Smith lamented that he wished he could tell the saints who he is--think about that for a long moment. What could he possibly have said that would have been more awesome and more difficult for them to comprehend that was beyond the truth they already accepted--that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration?

Reincarnation definitely does not encapsulate the idea of proceeding from one creation to another - from one grace to another ... from one exaltation to another.

Edit: The number 8 represents renewal or rebirth. Baptism represents rebirth. These symbols are deeper than most LDS understand. Rebirth. Reborn spiritually sure. New name? Rebirth and new names. The sabbath went from the 7th day to the 1st. Why? I believe at least one of the symbols here is the sabbath went from the 7th day to the 8th day - or the first day of the next week - the next iteration - the next creation. Jesus is now ascended and received all that the father hath. This is why the sabbath changed to the 8th day because on that day - Jesus finished the symbolic measure of his 7 day period as Son and became a perfected, ascended God. So the sabbath being the 7th day during BC symbolizes Jehovah is at the end of his last day as Son until He achieved the atonment and resurrection - then He begins the first day of His new role with His new name.
Notation: King Follet papers are not scripture either, so now we are at an impasse. And what was said that you claimed is not scripture can be proved by scripture...as a matter of fact, I already have in many previous posts...posts that apparently go unread. Makes one wonder if actual scripture scares people off and the arm of flesh seems to be more appealing.

... and you failed. "Makes one wonder if actual scripture scares people off" is rude and condescending. My posts were full of scriptures. I can go ahead and let you believe what you believe without condescension or insulting which both fall into the spirit of contention. Here is a scripture for you:
3 Nephi 11: 29
For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
This is why no matter how much you disagree with someone, you cannot invite the spirit of contention. Sarcasm .. insults ... this is on you.

Here's another scripture:
Matthew 7:6
6 ¶Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
This is on me. How I long to have a grown-up, respectful discussion with the obvious context of "Maybe I'm not right about everything but let us come and reason together" - instead I cannot discuss pearls on this site without being with with sarcasm, insults, and condescension. But these words given to us by the Master is a warning to me against you.

If it weren't for your sometimes apparent desire to learn or follow the Savior FFA, I'd just ignore you. You have forgotten the golden rule. You preach scriptures, but you do not understand them even in this most basic understanding of the higher law - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. For example, I am looking at you the way I would want to be treated. If I found myself trolling LDS forums and insulting people with scriptures and about scriptures, I would hope that someone wouldn't simply ignore me but have the patience to teach me with longsuffering and love unfeigned. Good luck FFA, but patience is one area I am sorely lacking. There's only so much love I can return to your unkindness.

Edit: King Follet was published in the Ensign and on lds.org:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the- ... n?lang=eng

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Finrock »

freedomforall wrote:
alaris wrote:
rewcox wrote:
alaris wrote:If it's the same way, then the Lord Jesus Christ entered this creation from a past creation the same way we must do so.
Can you clarify what you mean here? I don't think this is standard LDS doctrine so I'm trying to understand what you mean to say.
Sure.

King Follet basically says that Heavenly Father was once a Savior himself and that Jesus was doing the things He saw His father do. Even though I have long understood that Heavenly Father was once a Savior, I took these comments to mean that Jesus learned to be perfect by watching Heavenly Father in heaven walking around being perfect and that He even witnessed Heavenly Father's sojourn as Creator and Savior by revelation. I now believe that He literally means He saw Heavenly Father save a creation ... as one of his disciples.
John 3:3 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
This gives me the chills just thinking about it. The more I study and ponder .. the more makes sense ..just like any new principle or layer ... it does fit and expounds the meaning of so much!

The first response to this thought may be .. "wait does this mean reincarnation?" No. We don't come back as flowers. But how else does one go from grace to grace? Here are some questions to ask:

Who saved Heavenly Father?
If Heavenly Father wasn't a Savior then wouldn't he be subject to Jesus the moment Jesus is exalted and returns to his presence having accomplished something so extraordinary and beyond comprehension that the Father himself did not accomplish?

From King Follet:
you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace
Revelation reveals 8 steps in this process with the word "overcometh" - they are rungs on a ladder. I need some time to write out a post on this, but it is simply amazing. Jesus even mentions His new name - the process of receiving a new name is highly symbolic of the process of proceeding from one creation to another with a new role, a new name - from one small degree to another ... from a small capacity to a great one. Jesus new name will be that of the role of Heavenly Father as He starts a new creation with a chosen Savior. Who will save His spirit children?

This isn't "standard" doctrine discussed in Sunday school. I do believe this doctrine was known and preached and understood by at least some of the Saints from the beginning until now. This is why Joseph Smith had several laments about being unable to teach the saints anything that contradicted the traditions of their fathers. This is why Joseph Smith lamented that he wished he could tell the saints who he is--think about that for a long moment. What could he possibly have said that would have been more awesome and more difficult for them to comprehend that was beyond the truth they already accepted--that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration?

Reincarnation definitely does not encapsulate the idea of proceeding from one creation to another - from one grace to another ... from one exaltation to another.

Edit: The number 8 represents renewal or rebirth. Baptism represents rebirth. These symbols are deeper than most LDS understand. Rebirth. Reborn spiritually sure. New name? Rebirth and new names. The sabbath went from the 7th day to the 1st. Why? I believe at least one of the symbols here is the sabbath went from the 7th day to the 8th day - or the first day of the next week - the next iteration - the next creation. Jesus is now ascended and received all that the father hath. This is why the sabbath changed to the 8th day because on that day - Jesus finished the symbolic measure of his 7 day period as Son and became a perfected, ascended God. So the sabbath being the 7th day during BC symbolizes Jehovah is at the end of his last day as Son until He achieved the atonment and resurrection - then He begins the first day of His new role with His new name.
Notation: King Follet papers are not scripture either, so now we are at an impasse. And what was said that you claimed is not scripture can be proved by scripture...as a matter of fact, I already have in many previous posts...posts that apparently go unread. Makes one wonder if actual scripture scares people off and the arm of flesh seems to be more appealing.

Doctrine against doctrine...who is trying to convince whom? This is the 64,000 dollar question.
freedomforall,

Actually, it is your interpretation and understanding of doctrine as opposed to another person's interpretation and understanding of doctrine.

The usual, Sunday School responses are well know by most members of the Church who have been members for years. For the most part in your responses, freedomforall, you provide the typical Sunday School answers or those that can be found in the manuals and material on LDS.org. This is not a slight against you, just my perception and understanding of the things that you write. What is in the manuals and what is typically taught in Sunday in the Church is not the only true and correct understanding. In fact, the manuals exist because there are many members who are either uncomfortable/incapable or unaware of their right and privilege to teach by the Spirit. The Church manuals and handbooks do not constitute the end all be all interpretation and understanding of the scripture. It is one perspective. It is a primer, intended to get things going, but often there is much more in the scriptures and in our doctrines than what is found in the manuals and the standard answers provided by the Church.

Nobody needs to suppose or feel like they are the arbiter of correct doctrine and attempt to censor or silence ideas or thoughts that come from a spirit that is not themselves. All of us have merit, the right, and the ability to receive further light and knowledge and we have the right to share that light and knowledge for the benefit and for the good of others. We can't declare it as official doctrine, but we can share it. When we engage in a discussion in a spirit of brotherly kindness, love, and respect we are able to be uplifted and edified. When we approach a discussion with assumptions, judgments, accusations, and an attitude of desiring to silence perspectives that we don't share, then, I'm going to be frank with you, we are engaging in Satanic and devilish conduct and behavior that denies the Spirit of Truth and prevents the edifying and goodness that comes from men and women who are engaged in honest and respectful dialogue with one another.

-Finrock

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by rewcox »

I had never heard of Multiple Mortal Probations until I came to LDSFF.

I don't consider it doctrinal and supported.

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

rewcox wrote:I had never heard of Multiple Mortal Probations until I came to LDSFF.

I don't consider it doctrinal and supported.
I'm not even sure that's what I'd call it or if I agree with the "traditional" definition of multiple mortal probations. What I believe is clear enough from the scriptures I've quoted in this thread to at least warrant consideration and discussion.

I agree with what Finrock is saying wholeheartedly about the church. The church is the schoolmaster to bring you to Christ. The church is essentially the Lord's telestial organization to introduce telestial beings to terrestrial ideas. The temple is the celestial school--sadly, this is largely a solo affair as these deeper concepts are only mentioned peripherally at church--but this is according to design. I believe teachers can and should use the spirit to determine when to bring in higher concepts of celestial learning.

This is what I've learned from the temple. I am paraphrasing. "Picture or imagine you are Adam or Eve." This isn't a reverse-teaching tool but a forward-teaching tool. The temple is Adam and Eve school for you.

From King Follet again:
and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.
I am a manager with 6 people on my team. I love my job but regularly feel unfit to lead 6 people and manage my clients happiness. If I am struggling to this job, I'm certainly not ready to be the High Priest of a world yet. But how can you become a God of a galaxy or a universe of worlds if you cannot manage a single world ... or a store ... or your personal life? Do you really think if you do well in this life as a store manager or as an excellent salesmen you'll then be handed the keys to your universe? You are ordained to be kings and queens in the temple - this is what you are ordained to become. The process is largely hidden precisely because the telestial audience will struggle to digest.

Edit: Godhood is a participatory order. This is how you learn to become a God. Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament and did not even refer to Himself as perfect until after the atonement and resurrection--which makes sense! See Abraham 3. See the baptismal covenant in Mosiah 18. See Alma 13. You are ordained to be kings and queens first .. and gods and godesses later. You are ordained to be joint heirs with Christ. Many believe this means you get to ride his accomplishments all the way to the throne of godhood - while indeed we utilize the atonement for our progress, joint heirs means we join Him in His work in future creations and join Him in ascendancy in the celestial kingdom upon by doing the same work that has been done before and will evermore:
the same as all gods have done before you
Having to descend below all before you can inherit all makes sense. This is why "Elder Brother" isn't appropriate. The process for Him is the same for Heavenly Father and the same for you and for me.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

Okay, here is a speech by Bruce R McConkie. See what he says about the Follet Sermon. See what he says about Multiple Mortal Probations. See what he says about God still advancing in knowledge, etc. See what he says about science and revealed word. And see what he says about thinking that a person can advance from one kingdom to another.

The Seven Deadly Heresies
BRUCE R. MCCONKIE

Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when this fireside
address was given at Brigham Young University on 1 June 1980.

SEE: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... -heresies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have sought and do now seek that guidance and enlightenment which comes from the Holy Spirit of God. I desire to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost so that my words will be true and wise and proper. When any of us speak by the power of the Spirit, we say what the Lord wants said, or, better, what he would say if he were here in person.
I shall depart from my normal and usual pattern and read portions of my presentation because I want to state temperately and accurately the doctrinal principles involved and to say them in a way that will not leave room for doubt or question. I shall speak on some matters that some may consider to be controversial, though they ought not to be. They are things on which we ought to be united, and to the extent we are all guided and enlightened from on high we will be. If we are so united--and there will be no disagreement among those who believe and understand the revealed word--we will progress and advance and grow in the things of the Spirit; we will prepare ourselves for a life of peace and happiness and joy here and now, and for an eventual eternal reward in the kingdom of our Father.
There is a song or a saying or a proverb or a legend or a tradition or something that speaks of seven deadly sins. I know nothing whatever about these and hope you do not. My subject is one about which some few of you, unfortunately, do know a little. It is "The Seven Deadly Heresies"--not the great heresies of a lost and fallen Christendom, but some that have crept in among us.
Now I take a text. These words were written by Paul to certain ancient Saints. In principle they apply to us:
I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [1 Corinthians 11:18­19]
Now let me list some axioms (I guess in academic circles we call these caveats):
--There is no salvation in believing a false doctrine.
--Truth, diamond truth, truth unmixed with error, truth alone leads to salvation.
--What we believe determines what we do.
--No man can be saved in ignorance of God and his laws.
--Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.
--Gospel doctrines belong to the Lord, not to men. They are his. He ordained them, he reveals them, and he expects us to believe them.
--The doctrines of salvation are not discovered in a laboratory or on a geological field trip or by accompanying Darwin around the world. They come by revelation and in no other way.
--Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.
--Our goal as mortals is to gain the mind of Christ, to believe what he believes, to think what he thinks, to say what he says, to do what he does, and to be as he is.
--We are called upon to reject all heresies and cleave unto all truth. Only then can we progress according to the divine plan. As the Lord has said,

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. [D&C 130:18­19]

Please note that knowledge is gained by obedience. It comes by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. In the ultimate and full sense it comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost. There are some things a sinful man does not and cannot know. The Lord's people are promised: "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" (Moroni 10:5). But if they do not seek the Spirit, if they do not accept the revelations God has given, if they cannot distinguish between the revealed word and the theories of men, they have no promise of gaining a fullness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Now may I suggest the list of heresies.

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.
This is false--utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.
God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply--not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

The life that God lives is named eternal life. His name, one of them, is "Eternal," using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives. God's life is eternal life, and eternal life is God's life. They are one and the same. Eternal life is the reward we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him. And eternal life consists of two things. It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fullness of the glory of the Father. Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.
Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow--why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.
Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?
The saving truth, as revealed to and taught, formally and officially, by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Lectures on Faith is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows all things, he has all power, and he is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit. And unless we know and believe this doctrine we cannot gain faith unto life and salvation.
Joseph Smith also taught in the Lectures on Faith "that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation." These he named as--
1. The idea that he actually exists;
2. A correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes; and
3. An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to the divine will.
The attributes of God are given as knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgment, mercy, and truth. The perfections of God are named as "the perfections which belong to all of the attributes of his nature," which is to say that God possesses and has all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, and all truth. He is indeed the very embodiment and personification and source of all these attributes. Does anyone suppose that God can be more honest than he already is? Neither need any suppose there are truths he does not know or knowledge he does not possess.
Thus Joseph Smith taught, and these are his words:
Without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures; for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him. [As quoted by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), p.264]
If God is just dabbling with a few truths he has already chanced to learn or experimenting with a few facts he has already discovered, we have no idea as to the real end and purpose of creation.

Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.
There are those who believe that the theory of organic evolution runs counter to the plain and explicit principles set forth in the holy scriptures as these have been interpreted and taught by Joseph Smith and his associates. There are others who think that evolution is the system used by the Lord to form plant and animal life and to place man on earth.
May I say that all truth is in agreement, that true religion and true science bear the same witness, and that in the true and full sense, true science is part of true religion. But may I also raise some questions of a serious nature. Is there any way to harmonize the false religions of the Dark Ages with the truths of science as they have now been discovered? Is there any way to harmonize the revealed religion that has come to us with the theoretical postulates of Darwinism and the diverse speculations descending therefrom?
Should we accept the famous document of the First Presidency issued in the days of President Joseph F. Smith and entitled "The Origin of Man" as meaning exactly what it says? Is it the doctrine of the gospel that Adam stood next to Christ in power and might and intelligence before the foundations of the world were laid; that Adam was placed on this earth as an immortal being; that there was no death in the world for him or for any form of life until after the Fall; that the fall of Adam brought temporal and spiritual death into the world; that this temporal death passed upon all forms of life, upon man and animal and fish and fowl and plant life; that Christ came to ransom man and all forms of life from the effects of the temporal death brought into the world through the Fall, and in the case of man from a spiritual death also; and that this ransom includes a resurrection for man and for all forms of life? Can you harmonize these things with the evolutionary postulate that death has always existed and that the various forms of life have evolved from preceding forms over astronomically long periods of time?
Can you harmonize the theories of men with the inspired words that say:
And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
And they [meaning Adam and Eve] would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. [2 Nephi 2:22­26]
These are questions to which all of us should find answers. Every person must choose for himself what he will believe. I recommend that all of you study and ponder and pray and seek light and knowledge in these and in all fields.
I believe that the atonement of Christ is the great and eternal foundation upon which revealed religion rests. I believe that no man can be saved unless he believes that our Lord's atoning sacrifice brings immortality to all and eternal life to those who believe and obey, and no man can believe in the atonement unless he accepts both the divine sonship of Christ and the fall of Adam.
My reasoning causes me to conclude that if death has always prevailed in the world, then there was no fall of Adam that brought death to all forms of life; that if Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement; that if there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, and no eternal life; and that if there was no atonement, there is nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. I believe that the Fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself, and that the Atonement affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself.

Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually.
This notion is contrary to the whole system and plan that the Lord has ordained, a system under which we are privileged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling before him. If we believe and obey, if we enter the waters of baptism and make solemn covenants with the Lord to keep his commandments, we thereby get on a strait and narrow path that leads from the gate of repentance and baptism to a reward that is called eternal life. And if we traverse the length of the path going upward and forward and onward, keeping the commandments, loving the Lord, and doing all that we ought to do, eventually we will be inheritors of that reward.
And in exactly and precisely the same sense, celestial marriage is a gate that puts us on a path leading to exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is in that highest realm of glory and dignity and honor hereafter that the family unit continues. Those who inherit a place in the highest heaven receive the reward that is named eternal life. Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate. When we get on the paths of which I speak, we are then obligated to keep the commandments. My suggestion in this field is that you go to the temple and listen to a ceremony of celestial marriage, paying particular and especial attention to the words, and learn what the promises are that are given. And you will learn that all of the promises given are conditioned upon subsequent compliance with all of the terms and conditions of that order of matrimony.

Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.
I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.
His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied, "Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."
He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?
There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world.
In the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ, these words are found:
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7­9]
There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies--some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16­17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.

Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.
The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment, has no excuse whatever for being led astray by it. Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.
We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced.


Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.
This is not really a great heresy, only a doctrinal misunderstanding that I mention here in order to help round out our discussion and to turn our attention from negative to positive things. If we keep two principles in mind we will thereby know that good and faithful members of the Church will be saved, even though they are far from perfect in this life.
These two principles are (1) that this life is the appointed time for men to prepare to meet God--this life is the day of our probation; and (2) that the same spirit which possesses our bodies at the time we go out of this mortal life shall have power to possess our bodies in that eternal world.
What we are doing as members of the Church is charting a course leading to eternal life. There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity. The prophet taught that there are many things to be done, even beyond the grave, in working out our salvation.
And so what we do in this life is chart a course leading to eternal life. That course begins here and now and continues in the realms ahead. We must determine in our hearts and in our souls, with all the power and ability we have, that from this time forward we will press on in righteousness; by so doing we can go where God and Christ are. If we make that firm determination, and are in the course of our duty when this life is over, we will continue in that course in eternity. That same spirit that possesses our bodies at the time we depart from this mortal life will have power to possess our bodies in the eternal world. If we go out of this life loving the Lord, desiring righteousness, and seeking to acquire the attributes of godliness, we will have that same spirit in the eternal world, and we will then continue to advance and progress until an ultimate, destined day when we will possess, receive, and inherit all things.
Now I do not say these are the only great heresies that prevail among us. There are others that might be mentioned. My suggestion, relative to all doctrines and all principles, is that we become students of holy writ, and that we conform our thinking and our beliefs to what is found in the standard works. We need to be less concerned about the views and opinions that others have expressed and drink directly from the fountain the Lord has given us. Then we shall come to a true understanding of the points of his doctrine. And if we pursue such a course, we will soon find that it proceeds in a different direction than the one that the world pursues. We will not be troubled with the intellectual views and expressions of uninspired people. We will soon obtain for ourselves the witness of the Spirit that we are pursuing a course that is pleasing to the Lord, and this knowledge will have a cleansing and sanctifying and edifying influence upon us.
Now, in order to have things in perspective, let me identify the three greatest heresies in all Christendom. They do not prevail among us, fortunately, but they are part of the gross and universal darkness that covers the earth and blots out from the minds of men those truths upon which salvation rests.
The greatest truth known to man is that there is a God in heaven who is infinite and eternal; that he is the creator, upholder, and preserver of all things; that he created us and the sidereal heavens and ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby we might advance and progress and become like him. The truth pertaining to him is that he is our Father in heaven, that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, that he is a literal person, and that if we believe and obey his laws we can gain the exaltation that he possesses. Now that is the greatest truth and the most glorious concept known to the human mind, and the reverse of it is the greatest heresy in all Christendom.
The Christian heresy, where God is concerned, is that Deity is a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; that he is three beings in one; that he is uncreated, incorporeal, and incomprehensible; that he is without body, parts, or passions; that he is a spirit nothingness that is everywhere and nowhere in particular present. These are concepts written in the creeds had in the churches of the world.
The second greatest truth in all eternity pertains to the divine sonship of the Lord, Jesus Christ. It includes the eternal verity that he was foreordained in the councils of eternity to come to earth and be the redeemer of men, to come and ransom men from the temporal and spiritual death brought upon them by the fall of Adam. This second greatest truth is that Christ worked out the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice because of which all men are raised in immortality and those who believe and obey are raised also unto eternal life.
Now the second greatest heresy in all Christendom is designed to destroy the glories and wonders of the infinite and eternal atonement. It is that men are saved by some kind of lip service, by the grace of God, without work and without effort on their part.
The third greatest truth known to mankind is that the Holy Spirit of God is a revelator and a sanctifier, that he is a personage of spirit, that his assigned ministry and work in the eternal Godhead is to bear record of the Father and of the Son, to reveal them and their truths to men. His work is to cleanse and perfect human souls, to burn dross and evil out of human souls as though by fire. We call that the baptism of fire.
Now the opposite of that is the third greatest heresy in all Christendom. It is that revelation has ceased, that God's mouth is closed, that the Holy Ghost no longer inspires men, that the gifts of the Spirit were done away with after the death of the ancient apostles, and that we no longer need to follow the course they charted.
I simply name these things; I think you will want to weigh and evaluate what is involved. I think you will want to ponder and wonder and search the scriptures. After Jesus had been teaching the Nephites as a resurrected person, giving them as much truth as in his wisdom he felt they could absorb at one time, he counseled them to go to their homes, and to ponder in their hearts the things he had said, and to pray to the Father in his name to find out if they were true, and then to come again on the morrow and he would teach them more.
Now that gives us the pattern by which we should operate in the Church. We come together in congregations, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, studying the revelations, reading the scriptures, and hearing expressions of doctrine and counsel given by those who are appointed. These teachings ought to be delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit. They ought to be received by the same power. And if they are, then the speaker and the hearer will be mutually edified, and we will have true and proper worship.
Then when the meeting is over, the "amen" should not end it. We should go to our homes and to our families and to our circles, and we should search out the revelations and find out what the Lord has said on the subjects involved. We should seek to get in tune with the Holy Spirit and to gain a witness, not solely of the truth and divinity of the work in which we are engaged but also of the doctrines that are taught by those who preach to us. We come into these congregations, and sometimes a speaker brings a jug of living water that has in it many gallons. And when he pours it out on the congregation, all the members have brought is a single cup and so that's all they take away. Or maybe they have their hands over the cups, and they don't get anything to speak of.
On other occasions we have meetings where the speaker comes and all he brings is a little cup of eternal truth, and the members of the congregation come with a large jug, and all they get in their jugs is the little dribble that came from a man who should have known better and who should have prepared himself and talked from the revelations and spoken by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are obligated in the Church to speak by the power of the Spirit. We are commanded to treasure up the words of light and truth and then give forth the portion that is appropriate and needful on every occasion.
I do not think that the heresies I have named are common in the Church. I think that the great majority of the members of the Church believe and understand true doctrines and seek to apply true principles in their lives. Unfortunately, there are a few people who agitate and stir these matters up, who have some personal ax to grind, and who desire to spread philosophies of their own, philosophies that, as near as the judges in Israel can discern, are not in harmony with the mind and will and purpose of the Lord. It is incumbent upon us to believe the truth. We have the obligation to find out what is truth, and then we have the obligation to walk in the light and to apply the truths that we have learned to ourselves and to influence others to do likewise.
Now the glorious and wondrous thing about this whole system of revealed religion that the Lord, our God, has given us is the fact that it is true. There isn't a grander, a more glorious, a more wondrous concept than the simple one that the work in which we are engaged is true. And because it is true it will triumph and prevail, and the knowledge of God and his truths will roll forth until it covers the whole earth as the waters cover the sea. We do not expect to have a perfect society among us until the millennial day dawns. But that is not far distant. And when that day comes, we will all, as the scriptures say, see eye to eye and speak with one voice, and the Lord himself will dwell among us. He could not dwell among us now because we are divided and we are not living in that perfect harmony and unity and with that devotion that prevailed among the Saints in the city of Enoch.
God grant that we may be wise in what we do, that we may seek truth, that we may live in harmony with the truth, that we may bear testimony of the truth, and that we may, as a consequence, have joy and peace and happiness here and now and be inheritors, in due course, of eternal reward in our Father's kingdom. This is my prayer for myself and for all of you, and for all of the members of the Church, and for honest truthseekers everywhere, and I offer it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

So should TBM's follow internet gurus teaching their own stuff, or learn from an apostle?

buffalo_girl
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7017

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by buffalo_girl »

Oh, my gosh!!! I'm glad others have so much energy; sure wish I had it.

Anyway...
Having to descend below all before you can inherit all makes sense. This is why "Elder Brother" isn't appropriate. The process for Him is the same for Heavenly Father and the same for you and for me.

I'm good with that!

Could we 'think about' God the Father being our Spiritual Grandfather in the Melchizedek Priesthood lineage?

If not, well...what?

Hebrews 7 (JST)
3 For this Melchizedek was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life. And all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually.

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

freedomforall wrote:Okay, here is a speech by Bruce R McConkie. See what he says about the Follet Sermon. See what he says about Multiple Mortal Probations. See what he says about God still advancing in knowledge, etc. See what he says about science and revealed word. And see what he says about thinking that a person can advance from one kingdom to another.

The Seven Deadly Heresies
BRUCE R. MCCONKIE

Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when this fireside
address was given at Brigham Young University on 1 June 1980.

SEE: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... -heresies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have sought and do now seek that guidance and enlightenment which comes from the Holy Spirit of God. I desire to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost so that my words will be true and wise and proper. When any of us speak by the power of the Spirit, we say what the Lord wants said, or, better, what he would say if he were here in person.
I shall depart from my normal and usual pattern and read portions of my presentation because I want to state temperately and accurately the doctrinal principles involved and to say them in a way that will not leave room for doubt or question. I shall speak on some matters that some may consider to be controversial, though they ought not to be. They are things on which we ought to be united, and to the extent we are all guided and enlightened from on high we will be. If we are so united--and there will be no disagreement among those who believe and understand the revealed word--we will progress and advance and grow in the things of the Spirit; we will prepare ourselves for a life of peace and happiness and joy here and now, and for an eventual eternal reward in the kingdom of our Father.
There is a song or a saying or a proverb or a legend or a tradition or something that speaks of seven deadly sins. I know nothing whatever about these and hope you do not. My subject is one about which some few of you, unfortunately, do know a little. It is "The Seven Deadly Heresies"--not the great heresies of a lost and fallen Christendom, but some that have crept in among us.
Now I take a text. These words were written by Paul to certain ancient Saints. In principle they apply to us:
I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [1 Corinthians 11:18­19]
Now let me list some axioms (I guess in academic circles we call these caveats):
--There is no salvation in believing a false doctrine.
--Truth, diamond truth, truth unmixed with error, truth alone leads to salvation.
--What we believe determines what we do.
--No man can be saved in ignorance of God and his laws.
--Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.
--Gospel doctrines belong to the Lord, not to men. They are his. He ordained them, he reveals them, and he expects us to believe them.
--The doctrines of salvation are not discovered in a laboratory or on a geological field trip or by accompanying Darwin around the world. They come by revelation and in no other way.
--Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.
--Our goal as mortals is to gain the mind of Christ, to believe what he believes, to think what he thinks, to say what he says, to do what he does, and to be as he is.
--We are called upon to reject all heresies and cleave unto all truth. Only then can we progress according to the divine plan. As the Lord has said,

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. [D&C 130:18­19]

Please note that knowledge is gained by obedience. It comes by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. In the ultimate and full sense it comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost. There are some things a sinful man does not and cannot know. The Lord's people are promised: "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" (Moroni 10:5). But if they do not seek the Spirit, if they do not accept the revelations God has given, if they cannot distinguish between the revealed word and the theories of men, they have no promise of gaining a fullness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Now may I suggest the list of heresies.

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.
This is false--utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.
God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply--not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

The life that God lives is named eternal life. His name, one of them, is "Eternal," using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives. God's life is eternal life, and eternal life is God's life. They are one and the same. Eternal life is the reward we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him. And eternal life consists of two things. It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fullness of the glory of the Father. Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.
Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow--why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.
Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?
The saving truth, as revealed to and taught, formally and officially, by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Lectures on Faith is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows all things, he has all power, and he is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit. And unless we know and believe this doctrine we cannot gain faith unto life and salvation.
Joseph Smith also taught in the Lectures on Faith "that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation." These he named as--
1. The idea that he actually exists;
2. A correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes; and
3. An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to the divine will.
The attributes of God are given as knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgment, mercy, and truth. The perfections of God are named as "the perfections which belong to all of the attributes of his nature," which is to say that God possesses and has all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, and all truth. He is indeed the very embodiment and personification and source of all these attributes. Does anyone suppose that God can be more honest than he already is? Neither need any suppose there are truths he does not know or knowledge he does not possess.
Thus Joseph Smith taught, and these are his words:
Without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures; for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him. [As quoted by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), p.264]
If God is just dabbling with a few truths he has already chanced to learn or experimenting with a few facts he has already discovered, we have no idea as to the real end and purpose of creation.

Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.
There are those who believe that the theory of organic evolution runs counter to the plain and explicit principles set forth in the holy scriptures as these have been interpreted and taught by Joseph Smith and his associates. There are others who think that evolution is the system used by the Lord to form plant and animal life and to place man on earth.
May I say that all truth is in agreement, that true religion and true science bear the same witness, and that in the true and full sense, true science is part of true religion. But may I also raise some questions of a serious nature. Is there any way to harmonize the false religions of the Dark Ages with the truths of science as they have now been discovered? Is there any way to harmonize the revealed religion that has come to us with the theoretical postulates of Darwinism and the diverse speculations descending therefrom?
Should we accept the famous document of the First Presidency issued in the days of President Joseph F. Smith and entitled "The Origin of Man" as meaning exactly what it says? Is it the doctrine of the gospel that Adam stood next to Christ in power and might and intelligence before the foundations of the world were laid; that Adam was placed on this earth as an immortal being; that there was no death in the world for him or for any form of life until after the Fall; that the fall of Adam brought temporal and spiritual death into the world; that this temporal death passed upon all forms of life, upon man and animal and fish and fowl and plant life; that Christ came to ransom man and all forms of life from the effects of the temporal death brought into the world through the Fall, and in the case of man from a spiritual death also; and that this ransom includes a resurrection for man and for all forms of life? Can you harmonize these things with the evolutionary postulate that death has always existed and that the various forms of life have evolved from preceding forms over astronomically long periods of time?
Can you harmonize the theories of men with the inspired words that say:
And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
And they [meaning Adam and Eve] would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. [2 Nephi 2:22­26]
These are questions to which all of us should find answers. Every person must choose for himself what he will believe. I recommend that all of you study and ponder and pray and seek light and knowledge in these and in all fields.
I believe that the atonement of Christ is the great and eternal foundation upon which revealed religion rests. I believe that no man can be saved unless he believes that our Lord's atoning sacrifice brings immortality to all and eternal life to those who believe and obey, and no man can believe in the atonement unless he accepts both the divine sonship of Christ and the fall of Adam.
My reasoning causes me to conclude that if death has always prevailed in the world, then there was no fall of Adam that brought death to all forms of life; that if Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement; that if there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, and no eternal life; and that if there was no atonement, there is nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. I believe that the Fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself, and that the Atonement affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself.

Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually.
This notion is contrary to the whole system and plan that the Lord has ordained, a system under which we are privileged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling before him. If we believe and obey, if we enter the waters of baptism and make solemn covenants with the Lord to keep his commandments, we thereby get on a strait and narrow path that leads from the gate of repentance and baptism to a reward that is called eternal life. And if we traverse the length of the path going upward and forward and onward, keeping the commandments, loving the Lord, and doing all that we ought to do, eventually we will be inheritors of that reward.
And in exactly and precisely the same sense, celestial marriage is a gate that puts us on a path leading to exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is in that highest realm of glory and dignity and honor hereafter that the family unit continues. Those who inherit a place in the highest heaven receive the reward that is named eternal life. Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate. When we get on the paths of which I speak, we are then obligated to keep the commandments. My suggestion in this field is that you go to the temple and listen to a ceremony of celestial marriage, paying particular and especial attention to the words, and learn what the promises are that are given. And you will learn that all of the promises given are conditioned upon subsequent compliance with all of the terms and conditions of that order of matrimony.

Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.
I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.
His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied, "Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."
He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?
There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world.
In the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ, these words are found:
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7­9]
There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies--some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16­17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.

Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.
The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment, has no excuse whatever for being led astray by it. Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.
We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced.


Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.
This is not really a great heresy, only a doctrinal misunderstanding that I mention here in order to help round out our discussion and to turn our attention from negative to positive things. If we keep two principles in mind we will thereby know that good and faithful members of the Church will be saved, even though they are far from perfect in this life.
These two principles are (1) that this life is the appointed time for men to prepare to meet God--this life is the day of our probation; and (2) that the same spirit which possesses our bodies at the time we go out of this mortal life shall have power to possess our bodies in that eternal world.
What we are doing as members of the Church is charting a course leading to eternal life. There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity. The prophet taught that there are many things to be done, even beyond the grave, in working out our salvation.
And so what we do in this life is chart a course leading to eternal life. That course begins here and now and continues in the realms ahead. We must determine in our hearts and in our souls, with all the power and ability we have, that from this time forward we will press on in righteousness; by so doing we can go where God and Christ are. If we make that firm determination, and are in the course of our duty when this life is over, we will continue in that course in eternity. That same spirit that possesses our bodies at the time we depart from this mortal life will have power to possess our bodies in the eternal world. If we go out of this life loving the Lord, desiring righteousness, and seeking to acquire the attributes of godliness, we will have that same spirit in the eternal world, and we will then continue to advance and progress until an ultimate, destined day when we will possess, receive, and inherit all things.
Now I do not say these are the only great heresies that prevail among us. There are others that might be mentioned. My suggestion, relative to all doctrines and all principles, is that we become students of holy writ, and that we conform our thinking and our beliefs to what is found in the standard works. We need to be less concerned about the views and opinions that others have expressed and drink directly from the fountain the Lord has given us. Then we shall come to a true understanding of the points of his doctrine. And if we pursue such a course, we will soon find that it proceeds in a different direction than the one that the world pursues. We will not be troubled with the intellectual views and expressions of uninspired people. We will soon obtain for ourselves the witness of the Spirit that we are pursuing a course that is pleasing to the Lord, and this knowledge will have a cleansing and sanctifying and edifying influence upon us.
Now, in order to have things in perspective, let me identify the three greatest heresies in all Christendom. They do not prevail among us, fortunately, but they are part of the gross and universal darkness that covers the earth and blots out from the minds of men those truths upon which salvation rests.
The greatest truth known to man is that there is a God in heaven who is infinite and eternal; that he is the creator, upholder, and preserver of all things; that he created us and the sidereal heavens and ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby we might advance and progress and become like him. The truth pertaining to him is that he is our Father in heaven, that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, that he is a literal person, and that if we believe and obey his laws we can gain the exaltation that he possesses. Now that is the greatest truth and the most glorious concept known to the human mind, and the reverse of it is the greatest heresy in all Christendom.
The Christian heresy, where God is concerned, is that Deity is a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; that he is three beings in one; that he is uncreated, incorporeal, and incomprehensible; that he is without body, parts, or passions; that he is a spirit nothingness that is everywhere and nowhere in particular present. These are concepts written in the creeds had in the churches of the world.
The second greatest truth in all eternity pertains to the divine sonship of the Lord, Jesus Christ. It includes the eternal verity that he was foreordained in the councils of eternity to come to earth and be the redeemer of men, to come and ransom men from the temporal and spiritual death brought upon them by the fall of Adam. This second greatest truth is that Christ worked out the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice because of which all men are raised in immortality and those who believe and obey are raised also unto eternal life.
Now the second greatest heresy in all Christendom is designed to destroy the glories and wonders of the infinite and eternal atonement. It is that men are saved by some kind of lip service, by the grace of God, without work and without effort on their part.
The third greatest truth known to mankind is that the Holy Spirit of God is a revelator and a sanctifier, that he is a personage of spirit, that his assigned ministry and work in the eternal Godhead is to bear record of the Father and of the Son, to reveal them and their truths to men. His work is to cleanse and perfect human souls, to burn dross and evil out of human souls as though by fire. We call that the baptism of fire.
Now the opposite of that is the third greatest heresy in all Christendom. It is that revelation has ceased, that God's mouth is closed, that the Holy Ghost no longer inspires men, that the gifts of the Spirit were done away with after the death of the ancient apostles, and that we no longer need to follow the course they charted.
I simply name these things; I think you will want to weigh and evaluate what is involved. I think you will want to ponder and wonder and search the scriptures. After Jesus had been teaching the Nephites as a resurrected person, giving them as much truth as in his wisdom he felt they could absorb at one time, he counseled them to go to their homes, and to ponder in their hearts the things he had said, and to pray to the Father in his name to find out if they were true, and then to come again on the morrow and he would teach them more.
Now that gives us the pattern by which we should operate in the Church. We come together in congregations, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, studying the revelations, reading the scriptures, and hearing expressions of doctrine and counsel given by those who are appointed. These teachings ought to be delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit. They ought to be received by the same power. And if they are, then the speaker and the hearer will be mutually edified, and we will have true and proper worship.
Then when the meeting is over, the "amen" should not end it. We should go to our homes and to our families and to our circles, and we should search out the revelations and find out what the Lord has said on the subjects involved. We should seek to get in tune with the Holy Spirit and to gain a witness, not solely of the truth and divinity of the work in which we are engaged but also of the doctrines that are taught by those who preach to us. We come into these congregations, and sometimes a speaker brings a jug of living water that has in it many gallons. And when he pours it out on the congregation, all the members have brought is a single cup and so that's all they take away. Or maybe they have their hands over the cups, and they don't get anything to speak of.
On other occasions we have meetings where the speaker comes and all he brings is a little cup of eternal truth, and the members of the congregation come with a large jug, and all they get in their jugs is the little dribble that came from a man who should have known better and who should have prepared himself and talked from the revelations and spoken by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are obligated in the Church to speak by the power of the Spirit. We are commanded to treasure up the words of light and truth and then give forth the portion that is appropriate and needful on every occasion.
I do not think that the heresies I have named are common in the Church. I think that the great majority of the members of the Church believe and understand true doctrines and seek to apply true principles in their lives. Unfortunately, there are a few people who agitate and stir these matters up, who have some personal ax to grind, and who desire to spread philosophies of their own, philosophies that, as near as the judges in Israel can discern, are not in harmony with the mind and will and purpose of the Lord. It is incumbent upon us to believe the truth. We have the obligation to find out what is truth, and then we have the obligation to walk in the light and to apply the truths that we have learned to ourselves and to influence others to do likewise.
Now the glorious and wondrous thing about this whole system of revealed religion that the Lord, our God, has given us is the fact that it is true. There isn't a grander, a more glorious, a more wondrous concept than the simple one that the work in which we are engaged is true. And because it is true it will triumph and prevail, and the knowledge of God and his truths will roll forth until it covers the whole earth as the waters cover the sea. We do not expect to have a perfect society among us until the millennial day dawns. But that is not far distant. And when that day comes, we will all, as the scriptures say, see eye to eye and speak with one voice, and the Lord himself will dwell among us. He could not dwell among us now because we are divided and we are not living in that perfect harmony and unity and with that devotion that prevailed among the Saints in the city of Enoch.
God grant that we may be wise in what we do, that we may seek truth, that we may live in harmony with the truth, that we may bear testimony of the truth, and that we may, as a consequence, have joy and peace and happiness here and now and be inheritors, in due course, of eternal reward in our Father's kingdom. This is my prayer for myself and for all of you, and for all of the members of the Church, and for honest truthseekers everywhere, and I offer it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

So should TBM's follow internet gurus teaching their own stuff, or learn from an apostle?
Nothing the 7 deadly heresies, of which I am familiar, contradicts King Follet or what I am saying. So I say we go with both since all truth is comfortable with each other. There is nothing in the 7 deadly heresies that says you do not progress within the celestial kingdom.
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
Fits.

Quoting an apostle who mentions that there is an incorrect view of King Follet and how it applies to God learning new truths does not somehow invalidate what I am teaching here. I shared this post with a friend and almost said "I bet FFA is scourning the Internets for some prophet somewhere who can contradict what I am saying." I didn't because that seemed rude and I didn't want to presume that's what you were doing. I was clinging on to the hope my several invitation to cordiality were being considered.

Alas ...

"So should TBM's follow internet gurus teaching their own stuff, or learn from an apostle?" is yet another illustration of your rudeness and desire for contention. Get thee hence already. Everyone knows what you think. Start a new thread. You can title it, "Jesus is the firstborn spirit of Heavenly Father. Dare to disagree."

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

buffalo_girl wrote:Oh, my gosh!!! I'm glad others have so much energy; sure wish I had it.

Anyway...
Having to descend below all before you can inherit all makes sense. This is why "Elder Brother" isn't appropriate. The process for Him is the same for Heavenly Father and the same for you and for me.

I'm good with that!

Could we 'think about' God the Father being our Spiritual Grandfather in the Melchizedek Priesthood lineage?

If not, well...what?

Hebrews 7 (JST)
3 For this Melchizedek was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life. And all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually.
Beautfiul scripture Buffalo_girl. Here is another that is very appropriate:
Alma 13:

1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—

7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—

8 Now they were ordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end—

9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.

10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

17 Now this Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem; and his people had waxed strong in iniquity and abomination; yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness;

18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.

19 Now, there were many before him, and also there were many afterwards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention.
Bold and size for emphasis. The more I learn, the more I see patterns in the scriptures. As D&C 93 stops just short of spelling all this out and the Lord then says, "hey if you are faithful you will have the full record of John which spells out what I am about to spell out" Alma is about to spell out the order of Melchizedek beings and how they came about but stops short and segues appropriately to Melchizedek himself and links the two sermons together so that those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and hearts to understand may piece it all together and profit thereby ...

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

alaris wrote: "So should TBM's follow internet gurus teaching their own stuff, or learn from an apostle?" is yet another illustration of your rudeness and desire for contention. Get thee hence.
I've been considering the possibility, but, nah, I'll hang loose a little while longer. After you've read hundreds of posts over six years replete with false doctrine of some sort or another coming from apostates, disgruntled members and those who hate the church leaders in some way, or those just coming along to stir the pot...you'll begin to get cantankerous too. I know every single person believes in their own reasons and purpose for coming here to rant, to let go, to vent...but some are outright pushy and filled with bias beyond reproach. You see, I always consider the source, the way topics are presented and how. I see how some folks react to having been shown →scriptural truth← and rejecting it. Hang around, you'll see. Oh, I did say scriptural truth, didn't I?

In the meantime, check these out.

—Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.

—Gospel doctrines belong to the Lord, not to men. They are his. He ordained them, he reveals them, and he expects us to believe them.

—Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.

—Our goal as mortals is to gain the mind of Christ, to believe what he believes, to think what he thinks, to say what he says, to do what he does, and to be as he is.

—We are called upon to reject all heresies and cleave unto all truth. Only then can we progress according to the divine plan. As the Lord has said,

There is no salvation in believing a false doctrine.

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Alaris »

freedomforall wrote:—Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.
[/size]
Agreed. I submit to you that your attitude of knowing the gospel better than everyone in these forums and especially your sarcastic, rude manner with which you disagree with others is an enemy to your learning. Those who speak in absolutes as though they have an absolute knowledge are fake. There is no way your knowledge is absolute ..testimony sure. Pretending to be the authority of what LDS doctrine is and its defender by insulting others is pathetic.

So how about we foster an atmosphere of learning and stop hijacking this thread.

If you'd like to contend with me after the manner of contention let's start a new thread as I think we both owe butterfly an apology at this point. No disciple of Christ would go around insulting people with whom they disagree whose hearts are pure and have no other object than to learn and to edify, so I'm not so convinced you even think you are the defender of truth that you portend. Now I have informed you there are limits to my patience to weather your insults FFA. When we stand before the bar you will see me for who I am and realize that even though I may not be correct about everything I post, my heart is certainly in the right place and the way you have treated me and others in these forums is flat wrong. Notice how nobody seems to engage you except to defend themselves against your insults. Notice how many people implore you to change your sunday school bludgeoning ways. Fair warning ... just because I keep trying to steer you away from contention does not mean I am not good at it. I am very good at arguing and am ashamed to admit I am extremely good at sarcasm and insults. However - this is no way to teach or edify or even how to call out the misguided.

Butterfly, I am sorry for attempting to teach FFA a better way of interaction in your thread. That was very shortsighted of me. FFA's attempts to lure me into contention will be ignored forthwith in this thread.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

alaris wrote:
freedomforall wrote:—Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.
[/size]
Agreed. I submit to you that your attitude of knowing the gospel better than everyone in these forums and especially your sarcastic, rude manner with which you disagree with others is an enemy to your learning. Those who speak in absolutes as though they have an absolute knowledge are fake. There is no way your knowledge is absolute ..testimony sure. Pretending to be the authority of what LDS doctrine is and its defender by insulting others is pathetic.

So how about we foster an atmosphere of learning and stop hijacking this thread.

If you'd like to contend with me after the manner of contention let's start a new thread as I think we both owe butterfly an apology at this point. No disciple of Christ would go around insulting people with whom they disagree whose hearts are pure and have no other object than to learn and to edify, so I'm not so convinced you even think you are the defender of truth that you portend. Now I have informed you there are limits to my patience to weather your insults FFA. When we stand before the bar you will see me for who I am and realize that even though I may not be correct about everything I post, my heart is certainly in the right place and the way you have treated me and others in these forums is flat wrong. Notice how nobody seems to engage you except to defend themselves against your insults. Notice how many people implore you to change your sunday school bludgeoning ways. Fair warning ... just because I keep trying to steer you away from contention does not mean I am not good at it. I am very good at arguing and am ashamed to admit I am extremely good at sarcasm and insults. However - this is no way to teach or edify or even how to call out the misguided.

Butterfly, I am sorry for attempting to teach FFA a better way of interaction in your thread. That was very shortsighted of me. FFA's attempts to lure me into contention will be ignored forthwith in this thread.
Thanks for the compliments. I'm not here for popularity. I teach straight from scripture. The rest is on those who want to learn without pleading and coercion from me. If you get my drift. As a matter of fact my post with the 7 heresies wasn't even directed at you. Did you see your pseudonym somewhere within the post. Yet it really yanked your chain. I guess you're human too.
Last edited by freedomforall on February 7th, 2017, 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by Finrock »

freedomforall wrote:
alaris wrote: "So should TBM's follow internet gurus teaching their own stuff, or learn from an apostle?" is yet another illustration of your rudeness and desire for contention. Get thee hence.
I've been considering the possibility, but, nah, I'll hang loose a little while longer. After you've read hundreds of posts over six years replete with false doctrine of some sort or another coming from apostates, disgruntled members and those who hate the church leaders in some way, or those just coming along to stir the pot...you'll begin to get cantankerous too. I know every single person believes in their own reasons and purpose for coming here to rant, to let go, to vent...but some are outright pushy and filled with bias beyond reproach. You see, I always consider the source, the way topics are presented and how. I see how some folks react to having been shown →scriptural truth← and rejecting it. Hang around, you'll see. Oh, I did say scriptural truth, didn't I?

In the meantime, check these out.

—Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.

—Gospel doctrines belong to the Lord, not to men. They are his. He ordained them, he reveals them, and he expects us to believe them.

—Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.

—Our goal as mortals is to gain the mind of Christ, to believe what he believes, to think what he thinks, to say what he says, to do what he does, and to be as he is.

—We are called upon to reject all heresies and cleave unto all truth. Only then can we progress according to the divine plan. As the Lord has said,

There is no salvation in believing a false doctrine.
Nobody needs to suppose or feel like they are the arbiter of correct doctrine and attempt to censor or silence ideas or thoughts that come from a spirit that is not themselves. All of us have merit, the right, and the ability to receive further light and knowledge and we have the right to share that light and knowledge for the benefit and for the good of others. We can't declare it as official doctrine, but we can share it. When we engage in a discussion in a spirit of brotherly kindness, love, and respect we are able to be uplifted and edified. When we approach a discussion with assumptions, judgments, accusations, and an attitude of desiring to silence perspectives that we don't share, then, I'm going to be frank with you, we are engaging in Satanic and devilish conduct and behavior that denies the Spirit of Truth and prevents the edifying and goodness that comes from men and women who are engaged in honest and respectful dialogue with one another.

-Finrock

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

Finrock wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
alaris wrote: "So should TBM's follow internet gurus teaching their own stuff, or learn from an apostle?" is yet another illustration of your rudeness and desire for contention. Get thee hence.
I've been considering the possibility, but, nah, I'll hang loose a little while longer. After you've read hundreds of posts over six years replete with false doctrine of some sort or another coming from apostates, disgruntled members and those who hate the church leaders in some way, or those just coming along to stir the pot...you'll begin to get cantankerous too. I know every single person believes in their own reasons and purpose for coming here to rant, to let go, to vent...but some are outright pushy and filled with bias beyond reproach. You see, I always consider the source, the way topics are presented and how. I see how some folks react to having been shown →scriptural truth← and rejecting it. Hang around, you'll see. Oh, I did say scriptural truth, didn't I?

In the meantime, check these out.

—Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.

—Gospel doctrines belong to the Lord, not to men. They are his. He ordained them, he reveals them, and he expects us to believe them.

—Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.

—Our goal as mortals is to gain the mind of Christ, to believe what he believes, to think what he thinks, to say what he says, to do what he does, and to be as he is.

—We are called upon to reject all heresies and cleave unto all truth. Only then can we progress according to the divine plan. As the Lord has said,

There is no salvation in believing a false doctrine.
Nobody needs to suppose or feel like they are the arbiter of correct doctrine and attempt to censor or silence ideas or thoughts that come from a spirit that is not themselves. All of us have merit, the right, and the ability to receive further light and knowledge and we have the right to share that light and knowledge for the benefit and for the good of others. We can't declare it as official doctrine, but we can share it. When we engage in a discussion in a spirit of brotherly kindness, love, and respect we are able to be uplifted and edified. When we approach a discussion with assumptions, judgments, accusations, and an attitude of desiring to silence perspectives that we don't share, then, I'm going to be frank with you, we are engaging in Satanic and devilish conduct and behavior that denies the Spirit of Truth and prevents the edifying and goodness that comes from men and women who are engaged in honest and respectful dialogue with one another.

-Finrock
How do we become one with Christ?

—Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes.

—Our goal as mortals is to gain the mind of Christ, to believe what he believes, to think what he thinks, to say what he says, to do what he does, and to be as he is.

I fall short, but this is what I whole heartedly believe. Why?

Alma 5:19
19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

alaris wrote:
freedomforall wrote:—Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.
[/size]
Agreed. I submit to you that your attitude of knowing the gospel better than everyone in these forums and especially your sarcastic, rude manner with which you disagree with others is an enemy to your learning. Those who speak in absolutes as though they have an absolute knowledge are fake. There is no way your knowledge is absolute ..testimony sure. Pretending to be the authority of what LDS doctrine is and its defender by insulting others is pathetic.

So how about we foster an atmosphere of learning and stop hijacking this thread.

If you'd like to contend with me after the manner of contention let's start a new thread as I think we both owe butterfly an apology at this point. No disciple of Christ would go around insulting people with whom they disagree whose hearts are pure and have no other object than to learn and to edify, so I'm not so convinced you even think you are the defender of truth that you portend. Now I have informed you there are limits to my patience to weather your insults FFA. When we stand before the bar you will see me for who I am and realize that even though I may not be correct about everything I post, my heart is certainly in the right place and the way you have treated me and others in these forums is flat wrong. Notice how nobody seems to engage you except to defend themselves against your insults. Notice how many people implore you to change your sunday school bludgeoning ways. Fair warning ... just because I keep trying to steer you away from contention does not mean I am not good at it. I am very good at arguing and am ashamed to admit I am extremely good at sarcasm and insults. However - this is no way to teach or edify or even how to call out the misguided.

Butterfly, I am sorry for attempting to teach FFA a better way of interaction in your thread. That was very shortsighted of me. FFA's attempts to lure me into contention will be ignored forthwith in this thread.
=)) =)) =))

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

alaris wrote:
rewcox wrote:I had never heard of Multiple Mortal Probations until I came to LDSFF.

I don't consider it doctrinal and supported.
I'm not even sure that's what I'd call it or if I agree with the "traditional" definition of multiple mortal probations. What I believe is clear enough from the scriptures I've quoted in this thread to at least warrant consideration and discussion.

I agree with what Finrock is saying wholeheartedly about the church. The church is the schoolmaster to bring you to Christ. The church is essentially the Lord's telestial organization to introduce telestial beings to terrestrial ideas. The temple is the celestial school--sadly, this is largely a solo affair as these deeper concepts are only mentioned peripherally at church--but this is according to design. I believe teachers can and should use the spirit to determine when to bring in higher concepts of celestial learning.

This is what I've learned from the temple. I am paraphrasing. "Picture or imagine you are Adam or Eve." This isn't a reverse-teaching tool but a forward-teaching tool. The temple is Adam and Eve school for you.

From King Follet again:
and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.
I am a manager with 6 people on my team. I love my job but regularly feel unfit to lead 6 people and manage my clients happiness. If I am struggling to this job, I'm certainly not ready to be the High Priest of a world yet. But how can you become a God of a galaxy or a universe of worlds if you cannot manage a single world ... or a store ... or your personal life? Do you really think if you do well in this life as a store manager or as an excellent salesmen you'll then be handed the keys to your universe? You are ordained to be kings and queens in the temple - this is what you are ordained to become. The process is largely hidden precisely because the telestial audience will struggle to digest.

Edit: Godhood is a participatory order. This is how you learn to become a God. Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament and did not even refer to Himself as perfect until after the atonement and resurrection--which makes sense! See Abraham 3. See the baptismal covenant in Mosiah 18. See Alma 13. You are ordained to be kings and queens first .. and gods and godesses later. You are ordained to be joint heirs with Christ. Many believe this means you get to ride his accomplishments all the way to the throne of godhood - while indeed we utilize the atonement for our progress, joint heirs means we join Him in His work in future creations and join Him in ascendancy in the celestial kingdom upon by doing the same work that has been done before and will evermore:
the same as all gods have done before you
Having to descend below all before you can inherit all makes sense. This is why "Elder Brother" isn't appropriate. The process for Him is the same for Heavenly Father and the same for you and for me.
Can I say here that your statement is not backed by gospel teachings? Just sayin'.

M Russell Ballard said this:

A third area of misunderstanding that I’d like to discuss for a moment has to do with our relationship to Christ. We occasionally hear some members refer to Jesus as our Elder Brother, which is a true concept based on our understanding of the premortal life with our Father in Heaven.

Christ is our spiritual Elder Brother and the Son of God, but He is also our Father or leader and our God.

So let us be very clear on this point: it is true that Jesus was our Elder Brother in the premortal life, but we believe that in this life it is crucial that we become “born again” as His sons and daughters in the gospel covenant.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/06/buil ... g?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by freedomforall on February 8th, 2017, 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by jwharton »

Finrock wrote:Nobody needs to suppose or feel like they are the arbiter of correct doctrine and attempt to censor or silence ideas or thoughts that come from a spirit that is not themselves. All of us have merit, the right, and the ability to receive further light and knowledge and we have the right to share that light and knowledge for the benefit and for the good of others. We can't declare it as official doctrine, but we can share it. When we engage in a discussion in a spirit of brotherly kindness, love, and respect we are able to be uplifted and edified. When we approach a discussion with assumptions, judgments, accusations, and an attitude of desiring to silence perspectives that we don't share, then, I'm going to be frank with you, we are engaging in Satanic and devilish conduct and behavior that denies the Spirit of Truth and prevents the edifying and goodness that comes from men and women who are engaged in honest and respectful dialogue with one another.
I agree and applaud this wholeheartedly!

I don't ever worry about who does and who doesn't agree with me.
I only ever hope that I can participate in the edification process.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by jwharton »

Wow, Joseph Smith Jr. would have a hayday with much of what Bruce R. McConkie is trying to establish as truth.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:Wow, Joseph Smith Jr. would have a hayday with much of what Bruce R. McConkie is trying to establish as truth. When you meet him at the judgement bar, you can ask him since you just declared him a man incapable of telling truth. I don't envy your position. :ymsick:
https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and ... h?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What Did Jesus Do in the Premortal World?
(2-3) Jesus Was the First Begotten in the Spirit and the Only Begotten in the Flesh
“The Father of Jesus [in the spirit] is our Father also. Jesus Himself taught this truth, when He instructed His disciples how to pray: ‘Our Father which art in heaven,’ etc. Jesus, however, is the firstborn among all the sons of God—the first begotten in the spirit and the only begotten in the flesh. He is our elder brother, and we, like Him, are in the image of God. All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.” (First Presidency [Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund], Messages of the First Presidency, 4:203.)

(2-4) Jesus: The Creator of This Earth
“Under the direction of his Father, Jesus Christ created this earth. No doubt others helped him, but it was Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, who, under the direction of his Father, came down and organized matter and made this planet, so that it might be inhabited by the children of God.” (Joseph F Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:74.)

Jesus Was Chosen to Be the Savior
(2-5) The Savior Was Appointed before the Foundation of the Earth Was Laid
“… we believe that Jesus Christ is our elder brother—that he is actually the Son of our Father and that he is the Savior of the world, and was appointed to this before the foundations of this earth were laid.” (Brigham Young in JD, 13:235–36. Italics added.)

(2-6) We Witnessed and Approved the Selection of Christ
“At the first organization in heaven we were all present, and saw the Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it.” (Joseph Smith, Teachings, p. 181. Italics added.)
Last edited by freedomforall on February 8th, 2017, 11:49 am, edited 3 times in total.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was “the firstborn of every creature,” and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as “the firstborn from the dead,” this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20; see also 1 Cor. 15:23); and “the first begotten of the dead” (Rev. 1:5; compare Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Heb. 1:6; read the preceding verses). That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul:

Heb 1:1-5
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/heb/1.6?lang=eng#5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by freedomforall »

There is no lack of clarity about Christ's sonship. Jesus is the Son of God in at least three ways. First, he is the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thereby the elder brother of the spirits of all men and women as God the Father, known also by the exalted name-title Elohim, is the father of the spirits of all mankind (Num. 16:22; Heb. 12:9; John 20:17). Thus, when Christ is called the Firstborn (e.g., Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21), Latter-day Saints accept this as a possible reference to Christ's spiritual birth. Second, he is the literal physical son of God, the Only Begotten in the Flesh (e.g., John 1:14;3:16; 2 Ne. 25:12; Jacob 4:11; D&C 29:42;93:11; Moses 1:6;2:26). Third, spiritually he is also a son by virtue of his submission unto the will of the Father (Heb. 5:8).

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Chri ... Sonship_of" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

buffalo_girl
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7017

Re: Is Jesus our elder brother?

Post by buffalo_girl »

Perhaps FFA is sincere in defending TRUTH. I hope FreedomForAll means what his forum name suggests.

I'm ok with loving & even defending the Gospel of Christ and Eternal LAW. However, we inspire others to love Christ and Eternal LAW by doing our best to become examples of Christ's ministry in our own allotted time in mortality. We shouldn't appoint ourselves to be doing or saying ANYTHING that puts a stumbling-block in the path of those likewise seeking Truth - even if we may consider their understanding misinformed or misguided.

Jesus, as a teacher, was a man of few words. Some of His words might be interpreted as rude against those who went out of their way to entrap Him, but I'm not sure those 'hypocrites' had sense enough to recognize the LORD's characterization of them. The LORD knew their hearts and their intent. I'm not sure any of us are as perceptive - especially not via internet communication.

Bruce R. McConkie did pull-out-all-the-stops in some of his personal views of Gospel Truth in his First Edition of Mormon Doctrine. He certainly 'shook' my idea of what The Church represented. I was too young and misdirected at the time to look for answers through personal prayer and scripture study rather than through what was then considered 'official church doctrine'.

I heard Brother McConkie's last Testimony in General Conference as he gave it in April 1985. His Testimony of Christ's essential contribution to our individual salvation is pure testimony. That's really the entirety of the Truth we each NEED to know.

We may not know every 'jot & tittle' in mortality. It may be that a few of us know some truths the rest of us haven't been given yet. When it came to the end of Brother McConkie's life, he loved the LORD and was looking forward to meeting Him. I'll bet he still had a few questions requiring answers.

I pray we may each arrive at that state of Holiness in our own mortal progress. We shouldn't ever be so 'sure of ourselves' that we hedge up the progress of others.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post Reply