Is Jesus our elder brother?

[AI2.0]

Butterfly, from some of what you've said it sounds like you believe God is a spirit. If so, then how do you explain D&C 130:22 which says 'The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;.."

[Finrock]

Butterfly, from some of what you've said it sounds like you believe God is a spirit. If so, then how do you explain D&C 130:22 which says 'The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;.."

I know you are asking butterfly, but the scriptures say that God is Spirit. Saying that God is Spirit does not contradict the fact that God has a body of flesh and bones. I can also say that I am spirit. My body receives its life because my spirit is inside of it.

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

Sorry I try to avoid impersonal pronouns. Jesus is the only one to master the flesh.

I agree with you about Jesus taking on different roles but I believe they span several creations.

Here is a quote from Joseph Smith recorded by Franklin Richards.


There is an amazing thread on these forums on the identity of the Holy ghost. I may link it later but it's easy to find with the search tool. I believe Franklin Richards may have misheard or misunderstood Joseph Smith but he definitely captured an important idea... That Jesus was once a Holy Ghost and that becoming a Son or Savior is the next step for a successful probation as Holy Ghost. Elder Brother? Well yeah... But it's misleading

Ok, I think I see where you're coming from. So do you believe that there is only 1 Holy Ghost at a time? I believe that we all have our own individual Holy Ghosts, so Jesus has His, you have yours, etc. So with the quote you provided, I interpret it as saying that yes, there are Holy Ghosts in the premortal existence who are now in a state of probation. When they have performed in righteousness, meaning that they have progressed enough as a spirit, then they will pass through the same course as the Son. The course of the Son is to go on to the 2nd estate- to come to earth and get a body.

You see this process as happening on a bigger scale - like there's only 1 Savior at a time, only 1 Holy Ghost at a time, etc - is that right? Whereas I see us all participating in this at the same time, each with different jobs to do, but each progressing from Holy Ghost, to Son, to Father.

Yes and no. I believe the identity of the Holy Ghost is hinted at by the baptismal covenant we make as spelled out in Mosiah 18 to comfort and to witness. So who is the comforter and witnesser or testator? We all are. I believe it is one Savior per creation but I can't begin to speculate how may Holy Ghosts there are. Well of course I can Speculate! Perhaps there is one per world. For example, in the temple the Holy Ghost is conspicuously absent. Why? The Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost er Michael comprise one presidency. Then there's Peter James and John. Why James and John? They do nothing but stand there and smile and say I am James. They are there to teach us the order of Heaven and ascension. Elohim speaks to Jehovah. Jehovah to Michael. Peter James and John mirror this order.

Perhaps the Holy Ghost is the 12.

1 Nephi 12:9  9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the twelve apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

Alma 11 44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

See the parallel? My personal belief is you enter the gate of baptism where the baptizer with authority shows the first token to signify you've left the general masses and have entered the House of Israel. You take on the covenant and baptism symbolizes continual death and resurrection (see King Follet) and your promise to mourn and teach and comfort is fulfilled once you pass this mortality and proceed into the next as among many of the noble and great ones (see my Abraham 3 post .) God hood is a participatory order. The true name of the order of Melchizedek. Think about it. This is the order of the son of God. You are part of His order to do what work? His work. Salvation. Think of it this way. If you are living your covenants then you are bringing about the eternal life of man.

I believe we work our way up to progressing from one small degree to a larger one. The temple is Adam and Eve school for you to become such.. To work your way to that point. Once you are there I bet there are new ordinances to then work towards being a Son. Isaiah 6 is first in chronology of his chapters and is an amazing ordinance. Whom shall I send. Here am I send me. Read it. It's incredible! The order of the Son of God. How can you master the order of Elohim if you don't master every step of the order of Jehovah?

I think a lot of Lds see the evidence for what I am saying but flat refuse because it means the journey to godhood is waaaayyy longer than your primary teacher taught you. The thought of having to descend below all and jointly partake of the bitter cup... Eh no thank you. I can't do that. Only Jesus. Well ask yourself this question. If you couldn't be the Son how on earth (or how in the universe) could you possibly be a Heavenly Father yourself? Shouldn't any Father be able to take on mortality at any time and live a perfect life? Shouldn't they prove that at least once to themselves and to their Father(s)? Shouldn't every Father know all of his childrens infirmities and know how to succor them? A God is still an agent. Perfection is learned not earned. Perfect passions are mastered through agency not given as a reward. Again if you became a Heavenly Father then the moment you have a Son who lives a perfect life and atones and resurrects.... Unless you've done these things yourself then the moment your Son ascends... He ascends above His Father achieving marvelous acts the Father Himself did not achieve. You can not become a Father without first being a Son. And if I must be a Son before being a Father then Jesus was a me at some point. If he was a me then Elder Brother.... Well kinda.

I believe there are an order of beings or priests forever after the order of Melchizedek who are brought into a creation. Why forever? Because they already passed one mortality and lived up to their covenant. Now they are to go no more out... Unless they commit the unpardonable.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

They are brought and their salvation was purchased from the Father of this creation who was the Savior of the prior. Read John 17 with this idea in mind. Mind blowing. "thine they were."

John 17 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

How did they keep their word? Is He referring to their earthly baptism? Or Was this a covenant they made with Jehovah upon entering this domain...this space... This creation... To be His Apostles... To judge... To teach.... To comfort..... To witness. Especial Witnesses. All of John 17 reads like a prayer just for the order of the noble and great ones. Souls who volunteered. They helped create earth for crying out loud. They all said: Here am I send me.(Isaiah 6)

And if this is true... That Elohim saved the noble and great ones... That beautifully layers and ties creations together. D&C 135 suddenly makes more sense...the scripture that basically says if you are married in the temple and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and do bad stuff but don't shed innocent blood or deny the Holy Ghost you'll still come forth in the resurrection of the just. I'll just post it :

D&C 132

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

How could that possibly be? Unless the Holy Spirit of Promise is an indication that they already merited the resurrection of the just....to go... No.... More.... Out.


Boom drop the mic

Do you believe then that once you have a resurrected body, you are able to become a spirit again and enter the growing body of a baby within it's mother?

I've always wondered about J.S.'s comment about children who die in mortality which will be raised in the resurrection as children. Those children will be raised by their mothers, in the the terrestrial or celestial sphere. Do those children ever get another shot at mortality?

Do you think resurrected beings have spirits for children and that some of the people on this earth have a body for the first time and others do not?

I'm just trying to extend the implications for what you are saying here.

Read the Book of Mormon, ponder it and pray about gaining the many truths within. Also pay close attention to Alma chap's 40-42 about the resurrection. Very enlightening.

[freedomforall]

Just try to imagine how far back Christ would have been born in spirit. And us right behind him, he being our elder brother. God, The Father says he created worlds without number by His Son, even Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten. So could Christ be the Savior for all those worlds?


1 Cor. 15:45 (45–48)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

D&C 76:24
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

Moses 1:33,34
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

Moses 4:26
26 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many.

[AI2.0]

Butterfly, from some of what you've said it sounds like you believe God is a spirit. If so, then how do you explain D&C 130:22 which says 'The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;.."

I know you are asking butterfly, but the scriptures say that God is Spirit. Saying that God is Spirit does not contradict the fact that God has a body of flesh and bones. I can also say that I am spirit. My body receives its life because my spirit is inside of it.

-Finrock

You are right in the sense that we're all 'spirit', but you must admit that when a Catholic says God is a spirit, they mean something different. So I guess I'm asking Butterfly if she believes God has a body of flesh and bones.

[freedomforall]

From: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 2?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. …

“… Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach Him, and how to ask so as to receive an answer. When we understand the character of God, and know how to come to Him, He begins to unfold the heavens to us, and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to Him, He is ready to come to us.”9

[Alaris]

Sorry I try to avoid impersonal pronouns. Jesus is the only one to master the flesh.

I agree with you about Jesus taking on different roles but I believe they span several creations.

Here is a quote from Joseph Smith recorded by Franklin Richards.


There is an amazing thread on these forums on the identity of the Holy ghost. I may link it later but it's easy to find with the search tool. I believe Franklin Richards may have misheard or misunderstood Joseph Smith but he definitely captured an important idea... That Jesus was once a Holy Ghost and that becoming a Son or Savior is the next step for a successful probation as Holy Ghost. Elder Brother? Well yeah... But it's misleading

Ok, I think I see where you're coming from. So do you believe that there is only 1 Holy Ghost at a time? I believe that we all have our own individual Holy Ghosts, so Jesus has His, you have yours, etc. So with the quote you provided, I interpret it as saying that yes, there are Holy Ghosts in the premortal existence who are now in a state of probation. When they have performed in righteousness, meaning that they have progressed enough as a spirit, then they will pass through the same course as the Son. The course of the Son is to go on to the 2nd estate- to come to earth and get a body.

You see this process as happening on a bigger scale - like there's only 1 Savior at a time, only 1 Holy Ghost at a time, etc - is that right? Whereas I see us all participating in this at the same time, each with different jobs to do, but each progressing from Holy Ghost, to Son, to Father.

Yes and no. I believe the identity of the Holy Ghost is hinted at by the baptismal covenant we make as spelled out in Mosiah 18 to comfort and to witness. So who is the comforter and witnesser or testator? We all are. I believe it is one Savior per creation but I can't begin to speculate how may Holy Ghosts there are. Well of course I can Speculate! Perhaps there is one per world. For example, in the temple the Holy Ghost is conspicuously absent. Why? The Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost er Michael comprise one presidency. Then there's Peter James and John. Why James and John? They do nothing but stand there and smile and say I am James. They are there to teach us the order of Heaven and ascension. Elohim speaks to Jehovah. Jehovah to Michael. Peter James and John mirror this order.

Perhaps the Holy Ghost is the 12.

1 Nephi 12:9  9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the twelve apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

Alma 11 44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

See the parallel? My personal belief is you enter the gate of baptism where the baptizer with authority shows the first token to signify you've left the general masses and have entered the House of Israel. You take on the covenant and baptism symbolizes continual death and resurrection (see King Follet) and your promise to mourn and teach and comfort is fulfilled once you pass this mortality and proceed into the next as among many of the noble and great ones (see my Abraham 3 post .) God hood is a participatory order. The true name of the order of Melchizedek. Think about it. This is the order of the son of God. You are part of His order to do what work? His work. Salvation. Think of it this way. If you are living your covenants then you are bringing about the eternal life of man.

I believe we work our way up to progressing from one small degree to a larger one. The temple is Adam and Eve school for you to become such.. To work your way to that point. Once you are there I bet there are new ordinances to then work towards being a Son. Isaiah 6 is first in chronology of his chapters and is an amazing ordinance. Whom shall I send. Here am I send me. Read it. It's incredible! The order of the Son of God. How can you master the order of Elohim if you don't master every step of the order of Jehovah?

I think a lot of Lds see the evidence for what I am saying but flat refuse because it means the journey to godhood is waaaayyy longer than your primary teacher taught you. The thought of having to descend below all and jointly partake of the bitter cup... Eh no thank you. I can't do that. Only Jesus. Well ask yourself this question. If you couldn't be the Son how on earth (or how in the universe) could you possibly be a Heavenly Father yourself? Shouldn't any Father be able to take on mortality at any time and live a perfect life? Shouldn't they prove that at least once to themselves and to their Father(s)? Shouldn't every Father know all of his childrens infirmities and know how to succor them? A God is still an agent. Perfection is learned not earned. Perfect passions are mastered through agency not given as a reward. Again if you became a Heavenly Father then the moment you have a Son who lives a perfect life and atones and resurrects.... Unless you've done these things yourself then the moment your Son ascends... He ascends above His Father achieving marvelous acts the Father Himself did not achieve. You can not become a Father without first being a Son. And if I must be a Son before being a Father then Jesus was a me at some point. If he was a me then Elder Brother.... Well kinda.

I believe there are an order of beings or priests forever after the order of Melchizedek who are brought into a creation. Why forever? Because they already passed one mortality and lived up to their covenant. Now they are to go no more out... Unless they commit the unpardonable.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

They are brought and their salvation was purchased from the Father of this creation who was the Savior of the prior. Read John 17 with this idea in mind. Mind blowing. "thine they were."

John 17 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

How did they keep their word? Is He referring to their earthly baptism? Or Was this a covenant they made with Jehovah upon entering this domain...this space... This creation... To be His Apostles... To judge... To teach.... To comfort..... To witness. Especial Witnesses. All of John 17 reads like a prayer just for the order of the noble and great ones. Souls who volunteered. They helped create earth for crying out loud. They all said: Here am I send me.(Isaiah 6)

And if this is true... That Elohim saved the noble and great ones... That beautifully layers and ties creations together. D&C 135 suddenly makes more sense...the scripture that basically says if you are married in the temple and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and do bad stuff but don't shed innocent blood or deny the Holy Ghost you'll still come forth in the resurrection of the just. I'll just post it :

D&C 132

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

How could that possibly be? Unless the Holy Spirit of Promise is an indication that they already merited the resurrection of the just....to go... No.... More.... Out.


Boom drop the mic

Do you believe then that once you have a resurrected body, you are able to become a spirit again and enter the growing body of a baby within it's mother?

I've always wondered about J.S.'s comment about children who die in mortality which will be raised in the resurrection as children. Those children will be raised by their mothers, in the the terrestrial or celestial sphere. Do those children ever get another shot at mortality?

Do you think resurrected beings have spirits for children and that some of the people on this earth have a body for the first time and others do not?

I'm just trying to extend the implications for what you are saying here.

As much as I'd like to ignore everything FFA posts at this point, I do like the occasionally thoughtful challenging remark whether by mistake or not. The seven deadly heresies (which is a talk I love) says that you cannot progress from Kingdom to Kingdom once the final judgement is passed. I totally agree with that. However, Elder McConkie also said that any progress that is made occurs within a sphere. It's almost as if Bruce R knew how this truth could be a stumbling block to those with an elementary understanding of the gospel who choke when presented with the meat. Read King Follet. Read King Follet. Read King Follet.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet

It's almost as if Joseph Smith was aware of the level of opposition against which these truths are met both within the church and without.

UNTIL you attain to the resurrection of the dead. Now I'm not saying I know all the answers. In fact, anyone who thinks they have such a complete understanding as to attempt to shut down open conversation among disciples of Jesus Christ gathered in His name ... well you can spot the fraud right there. None of us have a complete understanding of how this works. Joseph Smith left us clues. Why did he leave us just clues? Here's why:

“Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life.” (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 322.)

What could Joseph Smith possibly have said here? He was already the prophet of the restoration. I believe at the very least he could have declared himself to be one of the seven archangels which may have been difficult for many members to swallow at the time. Read Rough Stone Rolling. There were egos and power struggles - but probably only one of them was one of the 7 angels of presence. Anyway - that was a side bar.

The point I'm making is I don't know the answer, but I know enough to admit there are far more answers to be had despite what FFA would have you believe. If you are consigned to Telestial worlds and Terrestrial worlds after judgement you are likely given a body and you're done. See FFA's Alma reference. (You're welcome FFA. I mean thank you.)

Now Celestial ... "final" ... judgement. King Follet is referring to celestial beings and how to become a God when he says "from exaltation to exaltation until you attain the resurrection of the dead." Read and pray about that statement FFA. I promise all truth fits nicely together if you can but swallow enough pride to plant a seed with an open heart (read Alma 32 several times.) Imagine a person who has a lesser understanding than you (pretty much all of christiandom that isn't LDS) and being met with hostility when you try to present to them the Book of Mormon and invite them to read and pray. Then they invite you to pray about the Bible and somehow that's going to invalidate your BoM testimony. Annoying isn't it?

Brigham Young: “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later…

Wow look at the parallel between Joseph Smith and Brigham Young teaching super meaty - tough to swallow - TRUTHs. "Now hear it! and "I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it." It's like they're trying to preempt trolling back in the 1800s. Pesky agency and opposition.

Now I haven't done a lot of research on that quote (or prayer or pondering - yet) but if it's true, then this fits with what Joseph Smith was saying - from exaltation to exaltation. Adam was exalted with a celestial body - to no more be separated ever. Unless he CHOSE with his agency with likely that same statement - "Here I am. Send me." ... to then sacrifice his celestial body and fall. Now I don't know how many times you go from exaltation but I am trying to study, and ponder, and pray receive revelation despite the opposition. I would love to share my discoveries as they occur because like Joseph Smith - these discoveries are so exciting that I could both declare it with a trump of an archangel and defy the learning and combined wisdom ...even if some of the source of that supposed learning is LDS who think they are the keepers of truth with a sword laced in contention.

So that was a lengthy, fancy explanation for "I don't know." However, I have considered what you are saying. There are three degrees of celestial glory. What are they? What are they? Why are there three? Angels who are consigned to be angels forever are in the lowest degree. Is the second degree sealed couples only? And if so, how do they get from 2 to 3. King Follet.

[Sarah]

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet

I wonder if Joseph was referring to attaining the keys of resurrection, to be able to participate in the resurrection of others. We know everyone will be resurrected, and Joseph taught that many would be disappointed in the resurrection:

"The disappointment of hopes and expectations at the resurrection would be indescribably dreadful."

This gives the impression that one, you can not put off your own resurrection if you are not ready, and two, that once you are resurrected, you are not able to progress, at least from Kingdom to Kingdom. So, I can't see that this statement in the King Follet discourse means that as a spirit, you can put off being resurrected until you have gone from exaltation to exaltation. I wouldn't expect that one could be exalted without having a body, but I don't know. Can spirits before they are resurrected reach exalted status? That's what I've thought might be the case with Jesus and other noble and great ones, but I admit that I haven't made this a deep topic of study and I see that I need to study this out.

[Alaris]

I wonder if Joseph was referring to attaining the keys of resurrection, to be able to participate in the resurrection of others. We know everyone will be resurrected, and Joseph taught that many would be disappointed in the resurrection:

"The disappointment of hopes and expectations at the resurrection would be indescribably dreadful."

This gives the impression that one, you can not put off your own resurrection if you are not ready, and two, that once you are resurrected, you are not able to progress, at least from Kingdom to Kingdom. So, I can't see that this statement in the King Follet discourse means that as a spirit, you can put off being resurrected until you have gone from exaltation to exaltation. I wouldn't expect that one could be exalted without having a body, but I don't know. Can spirits before they are resurrected reach exalted status? That's what I've thought might be the case with Jesus and other noble and great ones, but I admit that I haven't made this a deep topic of study and I see that I need to study this out.

I think it's folly to assume we know all the ins and outs of the process, what the limitations of resurrections and resurrected bodies are. I think those who will be most disappointed are those who do assume because there will inevitably be truths that contradict with pre-conceived notions and suppositions we all make on a regular basis because it's comfortable. We have to have a balanced approach - testimony and testing truths / spirits but a humility, willingness to learn, and eyes, ears, and a heart that are all open and ready.

[butterfly]

Butterfly, from some of what you've said it sounds like you believe God is a spirit. If so, then how do you explain D&C 130:22 which says 'The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;.."

I know you are asking butterfly, but the scriptures say that God is Spirit. Saying that God is Spirit does not contradict the fact that God has a body of flesh and bones. I can also say that I am spirit. My body receives its life because my spirit is inside of it.

-Finrock

Also, God does have a body, but since it is so big, we can't really comprehend it. We mainly interact with Him through His voice, which is spirit. So some references to HIm in the scriptures describe Him as "spirit", since this is the part of Him that most of us are familiar with.

[freedomforall]

God has a body like you and I. He created man in his image, so if his image were only spirit how is it that we have bodies of flesh and bone. Is God a liar? He also created a spirit body for all of us.

Listen to what Jehovah said to the brother of Jared:


Ether 3:16
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Now read Mosiah 15:1-5

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

As the Father he created us, as the Son he died on the cross for us, his brothers and sisters.
Now, we can become his sons and daughters by keeping the commandments and covenants, by repenting of our sins often, shedding the natural man, becoming Holy and pure, and striving to live a life pleasing to him.

[butterfly]

God has a body like you and I. He created man in his image, so if his image were only spirit how is it that we have bodies of flesh and bone. Is God a liar? He also created a spirit body for all of us.

Listen to what Jehovah said to the brother of Jared:


Ether 3:16
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Now read Mosiah 15:1-5

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

As the Father he created us, as the Son he died on the cross for us, his brothers and sisters.
Now, we can become his sons and daughters by keeping the commandments and covenants, by repenting of our sins often, shedding the natural man, becoming Holy and pure, and striving to live a life pleasing to him.

I wholly agree. And thanks for those scriptures, I was about to track down the one in Mosiah.
If you read Lectures on Faith (I'll try and quote it later) it says we were created in the image of the Son, not the Father. See, these titles of father and son are used in different contexts to convey different things. What I meant with my previous post when I said God's body is a lot bigger than ours, is that the Universal God's body is a lot bigger than ours. I'm not talking about Jehovah. Jehovah's body is like ours. And this is why LoF says we were patterned after the Son but not the Father.

[butterfly]

I hate to be negative, but I have a few stumbling blocks to accepting your perspective because I've received revelation from God that is different from what you are speaking to.

No problem disagreeing. I want to figure out truth and maybe you can help me uncover something new here.

Although I appreciate a deeper understanding or view of words such as son, father, etc. I will tell you that the Spirit/God has told me that one of the reasons why the ancient Church stumbled and became apostate was because they started to take for granted the simplicity and the plainness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because of this I feel really uncomfortable ignoring the simple and plain definition and understanding of words in deference to a more uncommon, complicated, or hidden meaning. I don't deny the uncommon or hidden meaning, but neither do I deny the plain and simple meaning of words. Until the Spirit tells me otherwise I will find it very difficult to reject the plain and simple interpretation of a word or words in favor of an uncommon or esoteric meaning or understanding of a word. So, my position is that although a word may very well have a deeper, hidden meaning, it nonetheless at the same time means what it plainly and simply means as well.

To be quite honest, I find the traditional interpretation of these words to be more complicated than the plainer rendition I'm seeing. Let's look at the plain meaning of these verses:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. who's coming down? God himself
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—why is he called the son? Because he dwells in flesh. What does it mean to dwell in flesh? It means a spirit being (Jehovah in this case) now lives in a body with flesh. So he's the son because now He has a physical body
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—why is he the Father? Because he was conceived by the power of God. If I say that I was conceived by the power of love, it doesn't mean that my dad is "love". It means that was the force present during my conception was love. If we look at the plainest meaning here, it doesnt say Heavenly Father impregnated Mary. It says the power of God was the means by which Jesus was conceived. Mary was a virgin so there was no father giving sperm in this process. It was God himself who entered Mary's womb and by the power of God, He had a mortal body created for Him. Jesus was mortal. If He were half-god while on the earth, none of us mortals could follow Him and do the things He did.
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. plainest meaning: we are talking about 1 person, not 2 separate persons who are 1 in purpose
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation...

If I'm understanding you correctly, I believe what you are describing is modalism and I do not believe in modalism.

I'm not familiar with modalism, so idk.

You said in a previous post that "[t]he scriptures teach that all the inhabitants of the earth are begotten sons and daughters unto God. So, in this instance, anyone who comes to earth and gets a body automatically becomes a son or daughter because they now have flesh."

I don't think this understanding is correct because I don't see where in the scriptures it teaches this. If you can point this out it would be very helpful for me and would do much to remove a stumbling block. As I pointed out the scriptures seem to teach the opposite in that they specifically teach that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God in the flesh and that the rest of us become sons and daughters of God in the flesh through the atonement of Jesus Christ, not because we are born on the earth and receive a flesh and blood body.

-Finrock

I was referencing D&C where it says:
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
You and I are begotten sons and daughters unto God (Jehovah).
Jehovah is the only begotten of the Father (the Universal God).

[freedomforall]

God has a body like you and I. He created man in his image, so if his image were only spirit how is it that we have bodies of flesh and bone. Is God a liar? He also created a spirit body for all of us.

Listen to what Jehovah said to the brother of Jared:


Ether 3:16
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Now read Mosiah 15:1-5

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

As the Father he created us, as the Son he died on the cross for us, his brothers and sisters.
Now, we can become his sons and daughters by keeping the commandments and covenants, by repenting of our sins often, shedding the natural man, becoming Holy and pure, and striving to live a life pleasing to him.

I wholly agree. And thanks for those scriptures, I was about to track down the one in Mosiah.
If you read Lectures on Faith (I'll try and quote it later) it says we were created in the image of the Son, not the Father. See, these titles of father and son are used in different contexts to convey different things. What I meant with my previous post when I said God's body is a lot bigger than ours, is that the Universal God's body is a lot bigger than ours. I'm not talking about Jehovah. Jehovah's body is like ours. And this is why LoF says we were patterned after the Son but not the Father.

Will you provide the exact location of where it is stated that we are not patterned after God, the Father?

[Finrock]

I hate to be negative, but I have a few stumbling blocks to accepting your perspective because I've received revelation from God that is different from what you are speaking to.

No problem disagreeing. I want to figure out truth and maybe you can help me uncover something new here.

Although I appreciate a deeper understanding or view of words such as son, father, etc. I will tell you that the Spirit/God has told me that one of the reasons why the ancient Church stumbled and became apostate was because they started to take for granted the simplicity and the plainness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because of this I feel really uncomfortable ignoring the simple and plain definition and understanding of words in deference to a more uncommon, complicated, or hidden meaning. I don't deny the uncommon or hidden meaning, but neither do I deny the plain and simple meaning of words. Until the Spirit tells me otherwise I will find it very difficult to reject the plain and simple interpretation of a word or words in favor of an uncommon or esoteric meaning or understanding of a word. So, my position is that although a word may very well have a deeper, hidden meaning, it nonetheless at the same time means what it plainly and simply means as well.

To be quite honest, I find the traditional interpretation of these words to be more complicated than the plainer rendition I'm seeing. Let's look at the plain meaning of these verses:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. who's coming down? God himself
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—why is he called the son? Because he dwells in flesh. What does it mean to dwell in flesh? It means a spirit being (Jehovah in this case) now lives in a body with flesh. So he's the son because now He has a physical body
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—why is he the Father? Because he was conceived by the power of God. If I say that I was conceived by the power of love, it doesn't mean that my dad is "love". It means that was the force present during my conception was love. If we look at the plainest meaning here, it doesnt say Heavenly Father impregnated Mary. It says the power of God was the means by which Jesus was conceived. Mary was a virgin so there was no father giving sperm in this process. It was God himself who entered Mary's womb and by the power of God, He had a mortal body created for Him. Jesus was mortal. If He were half-god while on the earth, none of us mortals could follow Him and do the things He did.
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. plainest meaning: we are talking about 1 person, not 2 separate persons who are 1 in purpose
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation...

If I'm understanding you correctly, I believe what you are describing is modalism and I do not believe in modalism.

I'm not familiar with modalism, so idk.

You said in a previous post that "[t]he scriptures teach that all the inhabitants of the earth are begotten sons and daughters unto God. So, in this instance, anyone who comes to earth and gets a body automatically becomes a son or daughter because they now have flesh."

I don't think this understanding is correct because I don't see where in the scriptures it teaches this. If you can point this out it would be very helpful for me and would do much to remove a stumbling block. As I pointed out the scriptures seem to teach the opposite in that they specifically teach that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God in the flesh and that the rest of us become sons and daughters of God in the flesh through the atonement of Jesus Christ, not because we are born on the earth and receive a flesh and blood body.

-Finrock

I was referencing D&C where it says:
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
You and I are begotten sons and daughters unto God (Jehovah).
Jehovah is the only begotten of the Father (the Universal God).

Okay, I think I understand what you mean a bit better. Thanks for continuing to post. Let me think about what you are saying more and see if I can make complete sense of it.

-Finrock

[butterfly]

God has a body like you and I. He created man in his image, so if his image were only spirit how is it that we have bodies of flesh and bone. Is God a liar? He also created a spirit body for all of us.

Listen to what Jehovah said to the brother of Jared:


Ether 3:16
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Now read Mosiah 15:1-5

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

As the Father he created us, as the Son he died on the cross for us, his brothers and sisters.
Now, we can become his sons and daughters by keeping the commandments and covenants, by repenting of our sins often, shedding the natural man, becoming Holy and pure, and striving to live a life pleasing to him.

I wholly agree. And thanks for those scriptures, I was about to track down the one in Mosiah.
If you read Lectures on Faith (I'll try and quote it later) it says we were created in the image of the Son, not the Father. See, these titles of father and son are used in different contexts to convey different things. What I meant with my previous post when I said God's body is a lot bigger than ours, is that the Universal God's body is a lot bigger than ours. I'm not talking about Jehovah. Jehovah's body is like ours. And this is why LoF says we were patterned after the Son but not the Father.

Here's the quote from Lectures on Faith that I was referring to:

The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;

Ok, so notice how we're talking about 2 separate beings, the Father and the Son. It clearly states that the Son is a personage of tabernacle who is made like man and that man is in the likeness of the Son. The Father is different. He is a personage of spirit. Man is created in the image of the tabernacle not the image of the spirit.

Notice the same distinction in these verses:

27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—

So which "God" are we created in the image of? The same God that came to earth and took upon flesh and blood, meaning Jehovah/Jesus Christ

1 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.

Again, we have 2 different Gods being referenced. The Almighty God is the "Universal God" or the "personage of spirit, glory and power" from Lectures on Faith. He's telling Moses that He created all things by "mine Only Begotten," the personage of tabernacle.

27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

The Almighty God makes sure to distinguish that man was created in the image of the Only Begotten - why? because the Only Begotten is the personage of tabernacle.

In the following verses, the Universal God is described as the "invisible God"- why? Because He's so big that we can't really comprehend Him ( unless we have an experience like Moses did). But until then, we mainly interact with His spirit. We can comprehend the Son since He has a body like ours.
12 Giving thanks unto theFather, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

So the Son is "the image of the Father," because the Father is "invisible."

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal,invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

[Finrock]

God has a body like you and I. He created man in his image, so if his image were only spirit how is it that we have bodies of flesh and bone. Is God a liar? He also created a spirit body for all of us.

Listen to what Jehovah said to the brother of Jared:


Ether 3:16
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Now read Mosiah 15:1-5

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

As the Father he created us, as the Son he died on the cross for us, his brothers and sisters.
Now, we can become his sons and daughters by keeping the commandments and covenants, by repenting of our sins often, shedding the natural man, becoming Holy and pure, and striving to live a life pleasing to him.

I wholly agree. And thanks for those scriptures, I was about to track down the one in Mosiah.
If you read Lectures on Faith (I'll try and quote it later) it says we were created in the image of the Son, not the Father. See, these titles of father and son are used in different contexts to convey different things. What I meant with my previous post when I said God's body is a lot bigger than ours, is that the Universal God's body is a lot bigger than ours. I'm not talking about Jehovah. Jehovah's body is like ours. And this is why LoF says we were patterned after the Son but not the Father.

The LoF also states that the Son was made in the express image and likeness of the Father.

Would that not then mean the Jesus looks like His Father and since we are begotten in the image of the Son, we must look like the Father as well?

How do you understand that portion. It right after the part you quoted earlier?

-Finrock

[butterfly]

God has a body like you and I. He created man in his image, so if his image were only spirit how is it that we have bodies of flesh and bone. Is God a liar? He also created a spirit body for all of us.

Listen to what Jehovah said to the brother of Jared:


Ether 3:16
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Now read Mosiah 15:1-5

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

As the Father he created us, as the Son he died on the cross for us, his brothers and sisters.
Now, we can become his sons and daughters by keeping the commandments and covenants, by repenting of our sins often, shedding the natural man, becoming Holy and pure, and striving to live a life pleasing to him.

I wholly agree. And thanks for those scriptures, I was about to track down the one in Mosiah.
If you read Lectures on Faith (I'll try and quote it later) it says we were created in the image of the Son, not the Father. See, these titles of father and son are used in different contexts to convey different things. What I meant with my previous post when I said God's body is a lot bigger than ours, is that the Universal God's body is a lot bigger than ours. I'm not talking about Jehovah. Jehovah's body is like ours. And this is why LoF says we were patterned after the Son but not the Father.

The LoF also states that the Son was made in the express image and likeness of the Father.

Would that not then mean the Jesus looks like His Father and since we are begotten in the image of the Son, we must look like the Father as well?

How do you understand that portion. It right after the part you quoted earlier?

-Finrock

Yes, I would love to discuss this further. Unfortunately, I just found out today that our family has been blessed with strep throat, so excuse me for a few days and I'll chime back in when we're in the clear.

[AI2.0]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

[rewcox]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

I believe this is what butterfly was saying:

Here's the quote from Lectures on Faith that I was referring to:

The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;

Ok, so notice how we're talking about 2 separate beings, the Father and the Son. It clearly states that the Son is a personage of tabernacle who is made like man and that man is in the likeness of the Son. The Father is different. He is a personage of spirit. Man is created in the image of the tabernacle not the image of the spirit.

Notice the same distinction in these verses:

27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—

So which "God" are we created in the image of? The same God that came to earth and took upon flesh and blood, meaning Jehovah/Jesus Christ

1 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.

Again, we have 2 different Gods being referenced. The Almighty God is the "Universal God" or the "personage of spirit, glory and power" from Lectures on Faith. He's telling Moses that He created all things by "mine Only Begotten," the personage of tabernacle.

27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

The Almighty God makes sure to distinguish that man was created in the image of the Only Begotten - why? because the Only Begotten is the personage of tabernacle.

In the following verses, the Universal God is described as the "invisible God"- why? Because He's so big that we can't really comprehend Him ( unless we have an experience like Moses did). But until then, we mainly interact with His spirit. We can comprehend the Son since He has a body like ours.
12 Giving thanks unto theFather, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

So the Son is "the image of the Father," because the Father is "invisible."

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal,invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

[Finrock]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

Of course butterfly can answer for herself, but I understand her to be saying that the Universal God (the Father) has a body, but that body is very large, greater than we can comprehend or understand. I believe the implication here is that the Universal God is "All in All" (Ephesians 1:23; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Cor. 15:38). The Universal God, the Father, the God of all Gods, has a body. We could say that we are inside of the Universal God's body.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Irrespective of the quote from LonF, Rewcox, do you know if she believes that God, our heavenly Father has a glorified body of flesh and bones?

[AI2.0]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

Of course butterfly can answer for herself, but I understand her to be saying that the Universal God (the Father) has a body, but that body is very large, greater than we can comprehend or understand. I believe the implication here is that the Universal God is "All in All" (Ephesians 1:23; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Cor. 15:38). The Universal God, the Father, the God of all Gods, has a body. We could say that we are inside of the Universal God's body.

-Finrock

Yes, I got that she thought he had a large body, but I'm asking if she believes that God, the eternal father, has a tangible, glorified body of flesh and bones. Seems like it's a question which can be answered either yes or no.

[rewcox]

Irrespective of the quote from LonF, Rewcox, do you know if she believes that God, our heavenly Father has a glorified body of flesh and bones?

I don't.

[Finrock]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

Of course butterfly can answer for herself, but I understand her to be saying that the Universal God (the Father) has a body, but that body is very large, greater than we can comprehend or understand. I believe the implication here is that the Universal God is "All in All" (Ephesians 1:23; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Cor. 15:38). The Universal God, the Father, the God of all Gods, has a body. We could say that we are inside of the Universal God's body.

-Finrock

Yes, I got that she thought he had a large body, but I'm asking if she believes that God, the eternal father, has a tangible, glorified body of flesh and bones. Seems like it's a question which can be answered either yes or no.

Guess you'll just have to wait for your yes and no answer, but you can make some inferences.

-Finrock