Is Jesus our elder brother?

[butterfly]

I can't find any solid scriptures stating that Jesus is our elder brother.
There are verses that say He is our father, though.

Does anyone know why we teach that Jesus is our brother and that someone else is the father of our spirits?

[Different]

He is the first born, so yes he is our eldest brother. I think we can become his begotten sons and daughters unto him but im not sure.

[butterfly]

He is the first born, so yes he is our eldest brother. I think we can become his begotten sons and daughters unto him but im not sure.

I'm not sure that being the "firstborn" makes Him our elder brother because we should all be trying to become firstborns, too. And if you become a firstborn, then you belong to the church of the firstborn, which basically means that you receive the same inheritance that Jesus receives, just as in old testament times the firstborn son always received the greater inheritance from the father.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

I don't think firstborn in this case refers to birth order but instead refers to whomever inherits all God has to give.

[Alaris]

You beat me to it butterfly.

Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 3
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I believe the Melchizedek Priesthood may be for firstborns. This would explain why there have been so relatively few over the telestial probation of the earth and why there is a preparatory priesthood and a long period BC where there was only Aaronic Priesthood. This also explains why there is an influx now to prepare the earth for its ascendancy to a terrestrial probation.

[kittycat51]

Plenty of prophets have stated thus. I stand with them:

President Ezra T Benson "We once knew well our Elder Brother and His and our Father in Heaven. We rejoiced at the prospects of earth life that could make it possible for us to have a fulness of joy. We could hardly wait to demonstrate to our Father and our Brother, the Lord, how much we loved them and how we would be obedient to them in spite of the earthly opposition of the evil one."

President Joseph F. Smith "His resurrection He became possessed of the glory of the Father, and became like God himself, possessed of power as God possesses power, for He declared that all power had been given unto Him, and He sits upon the right hand of the Almighty, and is our Mediator, our Elder Brother, and we must follow Him and nobody else"

President Heber J. Grant "I rejoice in knowing that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world, our elder brother, and that His name and His name alone, is the only one under heaven whereby we can gain salvation and come back and dwell with our Heavenly Father and our Savior, and our loved ones who have gone before"

President Gordon B Hinckley "When the great War in Heaven was fought, Lucifer, the son of the morning, came forth with a plan that was rejected. The Father of us all, with love for us, His children, offered a better plan under which we would have freedom to choose the course of our lives. His Firstborn Son, our Elder Brother, was the key to that plan. Man would have his agency, and with that agency would go accountability. Man would walk the ways of the world and sin and stumble. But the Son of God would take upon Himself flesh and offer Himself a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all men. Through unspeakable suffering He would become the great Redeemer, the Savior of all mankind."

Elder Bruce R McConkie (Did not ever become Prophet but a mighty apostle) "By obedience, by righteousness, through faith, over long ages and eons, this Firstborn of the Father, our Elder Brother, advanced and progressed until he became like unto God in power, in might, in dominion, and in intelligence. He became and was “the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity."

President Brigham Young: "If we were one, we should then prove to heaven, to God our Father, to Jesus Christ our Elder Brother, to the angels, to the good upon the earth, and to all mankind that we are the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. If we are not one, we are not in the true sense of the word the disciples of the Lord Jesus"

I could find MANY more examples. You get the drift. D & C 1:38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. I take the word of HIS servants.

[butterfly]

Plenty of prophets have stated thus. I stand with them:

President Ezra T Benson "We once knew well our Elder Brother and His and our Father in Heaven. We rejoiced at the prospects of earth life that could make it possible for us to have a fulness of joy. We could hardly wait to demonstrate to our Father and our Brother, the Lord, how much we loved them and how we would be obedient to them in spite of the earthly opposition of the evil one."

President Joseph F. Smith "His resurrection He became possessed of the glory of the Father, and became like God himself, possessed of power as God possesses power, for He declared that all power had been given unto Him, and He sits upon the right hand of the Almighty, and is our Mediator, our Elder Brother, and we must follow Him and nobody else"

President Heber J. Grant "I rejoice in knowing that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world, our elder brother, and that His name and His name alone, is the only one under heaven whereby we can gain salvation and come back and dwell with our Heavenly Father and our Savior, and our loved ones who have gone before"

President Gordon B Hinckley "When the great War in Heaven was fought, Lucifer, the son of the morning, came forth with a plan that was rejected. The Father of us all, with love for us, His children, offered a better plan under which we would have freedom to choose the course of our lives. His Firstborn Son, our Elder Brother, was the key to that plan. Man would have his agency, and with that agency would go accountability. Man would walk the ways of the world and sin and stumble. But the Son of God would take upon Himself flesh and offer Himself a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all men. Through unspeakable suffering He would become the great Redeemer, the Savior of all mankind."

Elder Bruce R McConkie (Did not ever become Prophet but a mighty apostle) "By obedience, by righteousness, through faith, over long ages and eons, this Firstborn of the Father, our Elder Brother, advanced and progressed until he became like unto God in power, in might, in dominion, and in intelligence. He became and was “the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity."

President Brigham Young: "If we were one, we should then prove to heaven, to God our Father, to Jesus Christ our Elder Brother, to the angels, to the good upon the earth, and to all mankind that we are the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. If we are not one, we are not in the true sense of the word the disciples of the Lord Jesus"

I could find MANY more examples. You get the drift. D & C 1:38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. I take the word of HIS servants.

Thank you for sharing those quotes. Yes, I am aware that many of our church leaders have stated that Jesus is our elder brother, but where did they learn that from? I can't find any recorded revelation in the D&C or the other standard works that say this is part of Jesus' relationship to us.

If it's not in the scriptures, do you know of the official revelation that shows that Jesus being our elder brother is doctrinal?

[butterfly]

You beat me to it butterfly.

Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 3
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I believe the Melchizedek Priesthood may be for firstborns. This would explain why there have been so relatively few over the telestial probation of the earth and why there is a preparatory priesthood and a long period BC where there was only Aaronic Priesthood. This also explains why there is an influx now to prepare the earth for its ascendancy to a terrestrial probation.

Good verse from Revelation, I didn't even consider that one.
I was also remembering your explanation about these verses:

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;


You explained how Jehovah was the one who is title "God" and that the one "like unto God" is actually Michael.
This again points to Jehovah/Jesus not having the role of our elder brother but that of our father.

[butterfly]

I'm going to quote marc's scripture chain from another thread because it really is worth pondering:

"John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.


Exodus 3: 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.


D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;

3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.


Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father...

10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?...


Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.


JSH 1:17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!


Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.


Jehovah goes on to call Moses His son. He has also called others His son(s):

D&C 39:1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—

2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;

4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.


D&C 31:1 Thomas, my son, blessed are you because of your faith in my work.

2 Behold, you have had many afflictions because of your family; nevertheless, I will bless you and your family, yea, your little ones; and the day cometh that they will believe and know the truth and be one with you in my church.


D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;

2 The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;


3 Nephi:20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.


Then there's the most obvious one: D&C 109 where Joseph Smith prays to Jehovah as the Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ when dedicating the temple. The Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer was specifically given to Joseph Smith by revelation. He did not make these words up. Prayerfully study who Joseph Smith is addressing and the names used to address Him.

D&C109:1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts...

4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build...

10 And now, Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance...

42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.

43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee;

44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours....

68 O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., and all his afflictions and persecutions—how he has covenanted with Jehovah, and vowed to thee, O Mighty God of Jacob—and the commandments which thou hast given unto him, and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will.

69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand...

78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name;

79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb!"

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[butterfly]

We can say that Jesus is the only Begotten Son, but we also are begotten sons (and daughters):

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

I think that assuming that Jesus is our elder brother may lead us to misinterpret some scriptures. I used to think that Only Begotten and Firstborn were synonymous with Elder Brother. But if I set aside "elder brother", then I see that I,too, am a begotten daughter unto God and that I too can become a Firstborn.

Those scriptures regarding "firstborn" and "only begotten" are trying to teach me what I personally should be becoming. They are not just describing who Jesus is.

It also changes my relationship with the Savior when I realize that, when I am born again or receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, He then becomes my father.

[Alaris]

Joseph Smith King Follet Sermon

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.

So many cannot comprehend this truth to their own detriment. Jesus wasn't firstborn because Elohim made the first spirit super awesome and then created the rest of us. He was firstborn because He followed the plan on salvation and used it to become so:

D&C 93
11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.
12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;
13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;
14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.
15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.
16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;
17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.
18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

I remember references to Elder Brother quite often when I was young and then there seemed to be a gentle push away from this by the GAs. If the heavens were opened and we saw Jesus' progression from beginning to end the expression may still be somewhat valid. However I think there were those brethren who understood the transcendence of Jesus who realized this expression was also somewhat misleading as to the breadth and depth of His accomplishment.

[inho]

I agree with you that scriptures teach us that Jesus is our father. This is due to the covenant we make with him. Out of respect we should call him father. A whole another issue is if Jesus is also our brother in a technical sense. Do you believe that the father of the spirit of Jesus is the same as the father of our spirits? If affirmative, then doesn't that make him our brother?

[Robin Hood]

I agree with you that scriptures teach us that Jesus is our father. This is due to the covenant we make with him. Out of respect we should call him father. A whole another issue is if Jesus is also our brother in a technical sense. Do you believe that the father of the spirit of Jesus is the same as the father of our spirits? If affirmative, then doesn't that make him our brother?

I don't think he is our brother in that sense.

[butterfly]

I agree with you that scriptures teach us that Jesus is our father. This is due to the covenant we make with him. Out of respect we should call him father. A whole another issue is if Jesus is also our brother in a technical sense. Do you believe that the father of the spirit of Jesus is the same as the father of our spirits? If affirmative, then doesn't that make him our brother?

I don't think he is our brother in that sense.

I don't think so either. What is your reasoning for believing this?

[Sarah]

In any case, the Father of Jesus is also our Father, and we are to worship him.


John 20:17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[Alaris]

John 5: 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

I am extrapolating here, but if the son wasn't created as the greatest of us all but became so by learning line upon line as we do, then it stands to reason that firstborn is earned rather than given. Perhaps it is also a descriptor that Jesus was firstborn into a creation; Let's look at this in reverse .. or in forward ... Jesus has inherited all and only referred to Himself as perfect after His ascension into heaven (see 3 Nephi sermon.) If Jesus now goes on to become a Father Himself with a new name (see Revelation 3:12) then He would need a Savior for His new creation instance. Read John 17:6 with that in mind.

John 17 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

I don't want to take this topic too far off-topic, but I believe Jesus was brought into this creation along with the noble and great ones - Jesus was likely the first soul Father brought and selected as the Savior--hence Firstborn. "They have kept their word" - I don' t think Jesus is referring to any earthly commitments his disciples made - but rather a covenant they made upon entering this creation--likely a sacred, awesome ordinance. Read the entirety of John 17 with this in mind. It's pretty amazing.

Lucifer was one of these beings - hence the title "Son of the Morning" and the lament in Isaiah at his fall. So Father chose the Savior and the sons of the morning - see John 17:6 - Father gave Jesus His disciples. "Thine they were" because Father ransomed them. Look at this in reverse reverse aka forward again ...

Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star. ~emphasis added

"Even as I recevied as my Father" is a pretty definite clue here. Many LDS think if we lead a good life they will be magically whisked away to become a Heavenly Father and Mother somewhere. Perfection is a function of agency and we cannot be made perfect but can only become so. We have to perfect all of our passions and abilities. We receive from the Lord as He received from the Father. Joint heirs mean we are part of the same journey and process - not a parallel one.

Overcometh is mentioned 8 times in the book of Revelation and is an amazing study on eternal progression. In the instance above, Jesus gives the title "morning star" to those who overcome at this level. So just like John 17:6 above that implies the Father owned these souls, it is Jesus who chooses the noble and great ones of the following creation and it is Jesus who becomes Father and chooses His Firstborn in the following creation. Elder Brother? well yeah .. but that's not a great descriptor.

This is the only way earning firstborn makes sense where the title still holds any discernible meaning. Otherwise Father created Jehova's spirit first and just made that spirit extra special which contradicts the plan and how perfection is attained. Following Jesus' example would be rendered meaningless.

D&C 93:
27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

No man .. including Jesus. The following scripture illustrates how light is attained ... this is how Jesus received His light - not because the Father just gave it to Him as the first created spirit.

D&C 50:
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

[rewcox]

Jesus was born around AD 0, +- 5 years. He is definitely older than me.

[Finrock]

You beat me to it butterfly.

Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 3
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I believe the Melchizedek Priesthood may be for firstborns. This would explain why there have been so relatively few over the telestial probation of the earth and why there is a preparatory priesthood and a long period BC where there was only Aaronic Priesthood. This also explains why there is an influx now to prepare the earth for its ascendancy to a terrestrial probation.

Good verse from Revelation, I didn't even consider that one.
I was also remembering your explanation about these verses:

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;


You explained how Jehovah was the one who is title "God" and that the one "like unto God" is actually Michael.
This again points to Jehovah/Jesus not having the role of our elder brother but that of our father.

Interestingly, Michael in Hebrew means, "Who is like God?"

-Finrock

[Finrock]

He is the first born, so yes he is our eldest brother. I think we can become his begotten sons and daughters unto him but im not sure.

I'm not sure that being the "firstborn" makes Him our elder brother because we should all be trying to become firstborns, too. And if you become a firstborn, then you belong to the church of the firstborn, which basically means that you receive the same inheritance that Jesus receives, just as in old testament times the firstborn son always received the greater inheritance from the father.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

I don't think firstborn in this case refers to birth order but instead refers to whomever inherits all God has to give.

I believe that the scriptures have a plain meaning and also other layered meanings. The plain meaning remains true and it is not negated by any other layered, or symbolic meanings. So, you can't sacrifice the plain meaning at the behest of a more sophisticated or symbolic or hidden meaning.

The plain meaning of firstborn is the first to be born, or the eldest and although firstborn may refer to something more, it certainly means what it plainly means.

-Finrock

[Alaris]

That's the beauty of the careful wording of the scriptures. There are layers and layers - milky layers for those who are ready for milk. Meaty layers for those ready for meat. Sometimes the Savior throws out a bit of meat to the milky masses. For instance, "You must be born again."

Eldest is still certainly compatible with what I've been conveying.

[butterfly]

Jesus was born around AD 0, +- 5 years. He is definitely older than me.

Can't argue with that ;)

[butterfly]

He is the first born, so yes he is our eldest brother. I think we can become his begotten sons and daughters unto him but im not sure.

I'm not sure that being the "firstborn" makes Him our elder brother because we should all be trying to become firstborns, too. And if you become a firstborn, then you belong to the church of the firstborn, which basically means that you receive the same inheritance that Jesus receives, just as in old testament times the firstborn son always received the greater inheritance from the father.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

I don't think firstborn in this case refers to birth order but instead refers to whomever inherits all God has to give.

I believe that the scriptures have a plain meaning and also other layered meanings. The plain meaning remains true and it is not negated by any other layered, or symbolic meanings. So, you can't sacrifice the plain meaning at the behest of a more sophisticated or symbolic or hidden meaning.

The plain meaning of firstborn is the first to be born, or the eldest and although firstborn may refer to something more, it certainly means what it plainly means.

-Finrock

I'm not so sure. Nicodemus thought that when the Savior told him that he needed to be born again, that Jesus meant the literal and plainest meaning - that Nicodemus needed to re-enter his mother's womb. Jesus had to explain that the teaching to be born again was not to be interpreted at its more basic and plainest level.

But back to the point, if we think that Jesus is the firstborn, meaning literally He was the first spirit to be born, then does that make sense?
Are we saying He was the firstborn out of all the gods that have ever existed in eternity? I doubt it. I believe that other gods have been born, experienced mortality, resurrected, etc long before it was Jehovah's turn.

So maybe we could say that Jesus is the firstborn of his premortal parents who birthed His spirit - Yes, I think that's totally possible. But whenever Jesus is referring to doing the will of his father, He seems to be referring to the Ultimate God's will and not to the will of parent's who birthed His spirit.

In addition, if Jesus has premortal parents who birthed His spirits, then we all probably do,too, and they are all probably different. I have my premortal parents, you have yours, Jesus has His, etc. So in that regard, we could all be firstborns because we all have different premortal parents.

The BOM teaches that God is our Savior:
34 Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

8 For thou hast said that God himself should come down among the children of men; and now, for this cause thou shalt be put to death unless thou wilt recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people.

27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—

[time4175]

Nice question! I would wonder if it would matter to you if he was a young brother or older? And what difference it would make to you?

This would be something to pray and gain a testimony of for yourself.

So why not say a prayer asking Heavenly Father your question about Jesus Christ and read scriptures such as Colossians chapter 1 verses 13 through 20 to start with. There is a book called Jesus the Christ that would be great to read, after the many great scriptures that can be read.

I wonder if your question is about why people use the word brother in addition to your original question asked?

Best hopes for your efforts and personal research as this is this best way to receive testimonies along with acting in prayer. Maybe I should say acting after prayer.

[butterfly]

Nice question! I would wonder if it would matter to you if he was a young brother or older? And what difference it would make to you?

This would be something to pray and gain a testimony of for yourself.

So why not say a prayer asking Heavenly Father your question about Jesus Christ and read scriptures such as Colossians chapter 1 verses 13 through 20 to start with. There is a book called Jesus the Christ that would be great to read, after the many great scriptures that can be read.

I wonder if your question is about why people use the word brother in addition to your original question asked?

Best hopes for your efforts and personal research as this is this best way to receive testimonies along with acting in prayer. Maybe I should say acting after prayer.

Thank you for your suggestions. Actually, for about the past year or so, I have been researching this scripture:
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

I have been wanting to understand what it is that I worship, what is God.

As a result of this searching, I was introduced to God and I learned that what God is happens to be very different than what I had always been taught God was.

So that led me to ask who my heavenly parents were.
I was talking with the Savior the other night and He told me that He was my father.
I immediately replied "But you're my brother???"
To which He said "Where in the scriptures does it say that?"

So I went to look in the scriptures, couldn't find any references, and thought I'd pose the question here on the forum.

[time4175]

Nice question! I would wonder if it would matter to you if he was a young brother or older? And what difference it would make to you?

This would be something to pray and gain a testimony of for yourself.

So why not say a prayer asking Heavenly Father your question about Jesus Christ and read scriptures such as Colossians chapter 1 verses 13 through 20 to start with. There is a book called Jesus the Christ that would be great to read, after the many great scriptures that can be read.

I wonder if your question is about why people use the word brother in addition to your original question asked?

Best hopes for your efforts and personal research as this is this best way to receive testimonies along with acting in prayer. Maybe I should say acting after prayer.

Thank you for your suggestions. Actually, for about the past year or so, I have been researching this scripture:
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

I have been wanting to understand what it is that I worship, what is God.

As a result of this searching, I was introduced to God and I learned that what God is happens to be very different than what I had always been taught God was.

So that led me to ask who my heavenly parents were.
I was talking with the Savior the other night and He told me that He was my father.
I immediately replied "But you're my brother???"
To which He said "Where in the scriptures does it say that?"

So I went to look in the scriptures, couldn't find any references, and thought I'd pose the question here on the forum.

It is difficult to know the sincerity if a person online. So in response to you my friend it is with hopes that you are not desiring to debate. As the spirit does not teach through contention. I hop you have read scriptures I had posted and still hope you read Jesus the Christ.

Now if I may and please do not feel insulted. I would like to give you what believe to be the definition of the word brother. I like to revisit the definition of words as at times a tend to forget the word's meaning. It also helps me to be on same page as another. Brother as defined in Websters Dictionary. Is this -1 : a male who has the same parents as another or one parent in common with another
2 : one related to another by common ties or interests
3 : a fellow member — used as a title for ministers in some evangelical denominations
4 : one of a type similar to another
5 a : kinsman
b : one who shares with another a common national or racial origin; especially : soul brother
6 a capitalized : a member of a congregation of men not in holy orders and usually in hospital or school work
b : a member of a men's religious order who is not preparing for or is not ready for holy orders <a lay brother>

Now the word doctrine is defined as this -1 archaic : teaching, instruction
2 a : something that is taught
b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogma
c : a principle of law established through past decisions
d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations
e : a military principle or set of strategies

I am no church leader or any authority of church doctrine.
That being said I can give you my opinion to your question. There is no doubt in scriptures in respects to family. The church does not teach a principle of Jesus Christ being our brother. We are taught that God is our Father in Heaven and that Jesus Christ is son. If you had read the scriptures I had posted in them you will read that all things were created through Jesus Christ by Heavenly Father 's order.

Please keep in mind we are not perfect and are expected to continually to seek to become perfect. Only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ are we made perfect.

Law is something we follow. All things obey a law. We know through scriptures that we were spirits before we received a body. If you have not read Pearl of Great Price let me just say what a great set of scriptures.

In those scripture verses in Colossians you will also see Jesus Christ is his first born if I am not mistaken. In John chapter 20 I think has valuable information . the only mentioned by words of Jesus Christ having a brother is in Galatians that I know of in new testament. In Chapter 3 of the book of Ephesians you will read the family of heaven.

It is in deed a nice question. I do not think you will find what you are looking for as far as exact scripture words that says Jesus Christ is everyone's eldest brother. That being said we also do not have all scripture in its pefectness. We are missing many books. I do believe you will receive a testimony of truth. Doctrine involves law to be followed and principles of the Gospel are the ways we are able to follow the doctrine. This is how I understand things to be but then again i could be wrong.

So maybe if in prayer you ask not if there is doctrine that teaches that Jesus Christ is your elder Brother but if Heavenly Father can provide you scriptures that shows God not Jesus Christ Created the Spirits in Heaven. In addition maybe reading material about how revelation, and doctrine is given. Best hopes to you and if I have not provided a helpful direction in your efforts to your question my apologies. This would be due to my ignorance and lack of knowledge. I do know according to James chapter 1 verse 5 your prayers will also be answered based on the conditions of righteousness.

[Alaris]

Nice question! I would wonder if it would matter to you if he was a young brother or older? And what difference it would make to you?

This would be something to pray and gain a testimony of for yourself.

So why not say a prayer asking Heavenly Father your question about Jesus Christ and read scriptures such as Colossians chapter 1 verses 13 through 20 to start with. There is a book called Jesus the Christ that would be great to read, after the many great scriptures that can be read.

I wonder if your question is about why people use the word brother in addition to your original question asked?

Best hopes for your efforts and personal research as this is this best way to receive testimonies along with acting in prayer. Maybe I should say acting after prayer.

Thank you for your suggestions. Actually, for about the past year or so, I have been researching this scripture:
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

I have been wanting to understand what it is that I worship, what is God.

As a result of this searching, I was introduced to God and I learned that what God is happens to be very different than what I had always been taught God was.

So that led me to ask who my heavenly parents were.
I was talking with the Savior the other night and He told me that He was my father.
I immediately replied "But you're my brother???"
To which He said "Where in the scriptures does it say that?"

So I went to look in the scriptures, couldn't find any references, and thought I'd pose the question here on the forum.

It is difficult to know the sincerity if a person online. So in response to you my friend it is with hopes that you are not desiring to debate. As the spirit does not teach through contention. I hop you have read scriptures I had posted and still hope you read Jesus the Christ.

Now if I may and please do not feel insulted. I would like to give you what believe to be the definition of the word brother. I like to revisit the definition of words as at times a tend to forget the word's meaning. It also helps me to be on same page as another. Brother as defined in Websters Dictionary. Is this -1 : a male who has the same parents as another or one parent in common with another
2 : one related to another by common ties or interests
3 : a fellow member — used as a title for ministers in some evangelical denominations
4 : one of a type similar to another
5 a : kinsman
b : one who shares with another a common national or racial origin; especially : soul brother
6 a capitalized : a member of a congregation of men not in holy orders and usually in hospital or school work
b : a member of a men's religious order who is not preparing for or is not ready for holy orders <a lay brother>

Now the word doctrine is defined as this -1 archaic : teaching, instruction
2 a : something that is taught
b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogma
c : a principle of law established through past decisions
d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations
e : a military principle or set of strategies

I am no church leader or any authority of church doctrine.
That being said I can give you my opinion to your question. There is no doubt in scriptures in respects to family. The church does not teach a principle of Jesus Christ being our brother. We are taught that God is our Father in Heaven and that Jesus Christ is son. If you had read the scriptures I had posted in them you will read that all things were created through Jesus Christ by Heavenly Father 's order.

Please keep in mind we are not perfect and are expected to continually to seek to become perfect. Only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ are we made perfect.

Law is something we follow. All things obey a law. We know through scriptures that we were spirits before we received a body. If you have not read Pearl of Great Price let me just say what a great set of scriptures.

In those scripture verses in Colossians you will also see Jesus Christ is his first born if I am not mistaken. In John chapter 20 I think gas valuable information . the only mentioned by words of Jesus Christ having a brother is in Galatians that I know of in new testament. In Chapter 3 of the book of Ephesians you will read the family of heaven.

It is in deed a nice question. I do not think you will find what you are looking for as far as exact scripture words that says Jesus Christ is everyone's eldest brother. That being said we also do not gave all scripture in its pefectness. We are missing many books. I do believe you will receive a testimony of truth. Doctrine involves law to be followed and principles of the Gospel are the ways we are able to follow the doctrine. This is how I understand things to be but then again u could be wrong.

So maybe if in prayer you ask not if there is doctrine that teaches that Jesus Christ is your elder Brother but if Heavenly Father can provide you scriptures that shows God not Jesus Christ Created the Spirits in Heaven. In addition maybe reading material about how revelation, and doctrine is given. Best hopes to you and if I have not provided a helpful direction in your efforts to your question my apologies. This would be due to my ignorance and lack of knowledge. I do know according to James chapter 1 verse 5 yours prayers based on the conditions of righteousness.

This is a great post time4175. Thank you. There are different meanings to the term "brother." Certainly none of us are "brothers" to Jesus in the sense that his earthly father was quite different than ours. There are other meanings that may apply, however there is a lot we don't know and has not been revealed to us. Certainly the temple sheds a lot more light on the creation process, but it really doesn't shed any light on how Heavenly Father's first steps in his new role or how / when Jesus was selected.